FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

Thanks, John. I hope I'm able to "get on with it" here, but I respect what Steve has to say. I agree that if it's only a 1 or 2 db difference, I will screw it (literally and figuratively ;-)) and move on. However, I am concerned about the safety/stability/legality of my beef-up fasteners and I won't move another muscle until I resolve this latest stumbling block. As for the 1,000 posts... Just paying it forward, my friend. :) I figure the more I help others (or help confuse others as is regrettably sometimes the case :lol:), the more I'm able to draw from the help pool when needed. And right now, needed! :shock: Thanks for the encouragement... --Keith :mrgreen:

Just for the record I think that the effort and time you put into this board is superb. I am sure that once your room is done it will be totally fanastic. There has been many occasions where I have asked something and you have helped out and I wish I had the knowledge to do the same back. I ended up getting so confused at the different info I was getting I paid for John to look over my plans and point me in the right direction. There are several things I am doing in my own room the are judgement calls so I always still ask a few questions. Keep up the good work. JohnG :P :P :P :P

Keith Sharward is definitely rookie of the year. You took it all the way, and you should be proud. DO NOT lock yourself in the room. Im sure knowone will hear you...

Help! I need to know whether I need to call off the delivery of my 1,906 pounds of drywall on Friday morning!

Keith, you're right; musta been a combination of me posting right after last graveyard shift and being under the (weather) gun around here. Your beef-up layers would work better if they are only fastened around their perimeters - this lets each layer maintain its own coincidence dip. However this would require a way to keep the perimeter edges tight against each other, so either screws thru into the OSB layer or removing the first cleats(holding the OSB) and doing full-width gypsum inserts (all the way to the stud) with one FINAL cleat to hold it ALL against the outer leaf - Eric Desart has cautioned against full-face gluing of gyp layers repeatedly, because it makes all layers act as ONE and lowers the coincidence frequency - this in turn weakens ISO at a lower frequency, which is ALREADY hard enough to deal with. Keeping the coincidence higher up in frequency makes it easier to stop with m-a-m, since this places the weakness further away from the resonant point. My recommendation for using gypsum or other inserts would be to cut each insert to approx. 1/8" undersize and use a compressible, SLOWER setting glue around the perimeter(ONLY) - if you can't work fast enough to place ALL the layers you intend to use at the SAME TIME and then cleat the ENTIRE STUD BAY at once, you can instead use screws to TEMPORARILY place cleats until the glue dries - These should be angled toward the outside of the wall so they tend to PULL IN the cleats against the inserts, making a tighter glue line - this will lessen the chance of a gap between layers caused by glue not squeezing out enough. Once your last layer of insert is done within a stud bay, the cleats can be permanently fastened; again, I'd use screws and angle them so they pull the cleat tight against the last insert. I know this is a major PITA, but you need to avoid fasteners anywhere but the perimeter of the inserts for best low frequency attentuation - According to my Insul calculator, critical frequency (coincidence) of 1/2" gypsum is 3038 hZ; increasing this to 5/8" lowers coincidence to 2531 hZ, and 3 GLUED layers of 5/8 (same as one single layer of nearly 2") lowers coincidence to 843.8 hZ - 4 GLUED layers and you're down to 632.9 hZ. The coincidence of INDEPENDENTLY ACTING layers doesn't shift whether using one layer or 10 - it's a function of the thickness of the contiguous layer, not the total. As stated in one of your(or Dan's) threads at Studiotips, properly filled gaps around edges won't be the end of the world; but placing fasteners anywhere but around the edges WILL negatively affect your attenuation. I need to go for now, if this is still confusing (or you want some ideas) just say so here; I'll check back tonight and if necessary post a sketch - Steve I still think I'd do ALL the demo work and pour the new floor BEFORE starting this...

knightfly wrote:

Keith, you're right; musta been a combination of me posting right after last graveyard shift and being under the (weather) gun around here.

Whew! :roll: You had me really worried there! :)

Your beef-up layers would work better if they are only fastened around their perimeters - this lets each layer maintain its own coincidence dip. However this would require a way to keep the perimeter edges tight against each other, so either screws thru into the OSB layer or removing the first cleats(holding the OSB) and doing full-width gypsum inserts (all the way to the stud) with one FINAL cleat to hold it ALL against the outer leaf -

I think I'm better off leaving the cleats in place. The reason is that the gaps between edge of OSB and edge of stud varies widely, from 0 to 3/8" and even :shock: 1/2" :shock: in a few spots, mostly due to stud imperfections (warped, twisted, waned, not plumb, etc.) :roll:

Eric Desart has cautioned against full-face gluing of gyp layers repeatedly, because it makes all layers act as ONE and lowers the coincidence frequency - this in turn weakens ISO at a lower frequency, which is ALREADY hard enough to deal with. Keeping the coincidence higher up in frequency makes it easier to stop with m-a-m, since this places the weakness further away from the resonant point.

OK, I'm down with that... Green glue on final two layers notwithstanding...

My recommendation for using gypsum or other inserts would be to cut each insert to approx. 1/8" undersize and use a compressible, SLOWER setting glue around the perimeter(ONLY) - if you can't work fast enough to place ALL the layers you intend to use at the SAME TIME and then cleat the ENTIRE STUD BAY at once, you can instead use screws to TEMPORARILY place cleats until the glue dries - These should be angled toward the outside of the wall so they tend to PULL IN the cleats against the inserts, making a tighter glue line - this will lessen the chance of a gap between layers caused by glue not squeezing out enough. Once your last layer of insert is done within a stud bay, the cleats can be permanently fastened; again, I'd use screws and angle them so they pull the cleat tight against the last insert.

I'm afraid I'm not clear on this. Maybe if you just described it some more... :?

I know this is a major PITA, but you need to avoid fasteners anywhere but the perimeter of the inserts for best low frequency attentuation - According to my Insul calculator, critical frequency (coincidence) of 1/2" gypsum is 3038 hZ; increasing this to 5/8" lowers coincidence to 2531 hZ, and 3 GLUED layers of 5/8 (same as one single layer of nearly 2") lowers coincidence to 843.8 hZ - 4 GLUED layers and you're down to 632.9 hZ. The coincidence of INDEPENDENTLY ACTING layers doesn't shift whether using one layer or 10 - it's a function of the thickness of the contiguous layer, not the total.

OK. Got it. "Don't make one big fat beef-up thingy," and fastening the layers together in the center essentially does that.

I need to go for now, if this is still confusing (or you want some ideas) just say so here; I'll check back tonight and if necessary post a sketch

A sketch would be awesome, Steve, if that's not too much to ask!! 8) But if you're very short on time, maybe you can just "talk it through" some more, and then I can ask for a sketch later if needed -- or I could sketch it and you can comment.

I still think I'd do ALL the demo work and pour the new floor BEFORE starting this...

(sigh) OK. I'll give this some thought. I have scheduled myself a four-day weekend, so I had planned to work on beef. The concrete work will require "my landscaper buddy" and his availability is tight. Thanks, as always... --Keith :mrgreen: (the :mrgreen: is back... Kind of! ;))

there are two competely different wall structures being talked about here. first i'm going to talk about the beef up on the existing stucco wall. i think keith is alarmed at whether the plan to screw 4 layers of gypsum into 1/2 inch OSB will work, or whether the gypsum will tear out and fall down due to inadequate screw penetration. 1/2 inch penetration into OSB isn't much but if you do MORE screws than normal (every 3 inches even) wouldn't that make up for it? in any case, keith's current plan calls for the last layer of gypsum to be screwed into the cleats instead of the OSB. shouldn't that hold everything together? ideally i'd do it differently however, i'd add another cleat on the outside of the last layer of gypsum. actually i now after thinking of this PLAN to add another set of cleats to the outside of the gypsum. is it possible that that much gypsum can put too much force on the outside stucco? that was another thought that crossed my mind. the gypsum is vertical and most of the weight is straight down. in an earthquake though this would change unpredictably. i wonder if screws can be put thru the cleat into the OSB so that the OSB is actually mechanically attached to the studs. this would keep some of the forces off the stucco in the event of an earthquake. the second wall we are talking about is the new stud wall. this is where i think all screws need to be in studs. the OSB here is unneeded and just makes it easier to mistakenly think you hit the stud when you didn't. i don't see why fastening only around the perimeter requires removing the cleats, you can still fasten around the perimeter going with your current plan. but i agree with the ONE CLEAT TO RULE THEM ALL idea. keith, i hate to say it but you probably ARE better off doing the floor first. that makes the most sense to me. i have the same feeling of conflicts arising around which job i WANT to do NOW vs. which one makes the most sense from a practical standpoint. but be coldblooded about it. you know already about surprises ... who knows what will come up in the concrete phase. d

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

. . . i think keith is alarmed at whether the plan to screw 4 layers of gypsum into 1/2 inch OSB will work . . .

Actually, 3 layers screwed/nailed into 1/2 inch OSB, then 1 final layer of 5/8 screwed into the cleats (and possibly through to the studs).

in any case, keith's current plan calls for the last layer of gypsum to be screwed into the cleats instead of the OSB. shouldn't that hold everything together?

That's exactly what I'm asking.

ideally i'd do it differently however, i'd add another cleat on the outside of the last layer of gypsum. actually i now after thinking of this PLAN to add another set of cleats to the outside of the gypsum.

I suppose that wouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that I'll only have about 3/4" worth of stud left. I guessed I'd have to I rotate the 5/8" x 1 1/2" cleats 90 degrees so that they're flat against the final beef... Like this:

is it possible that that much gypsum can put too much force on the outside stucco? that was another thought that crossed my mind. the gypsum is vertical and most of the weight is straight down. in an earthquake though this would change unpredictably. i wonder if screws can be put thru the cleat into the OSB so that the OSB is actually mechanically attached to the studs. this would keep some of the forces off the stucco in the event of an earthquake.

Remember, the gaps between edge of OSB and stud are up to 3/8" to 1/2" in some spots, so there's not much opportunity to drive a screw through the cleat into the OSB. :? The screw would, in most cases, miss the OSB altogether, or just barely hit the edge.

the second wall we are talking about is the new stud wall. this is where i think all screws need to be in studs. the OSB here is unneeded and just makes it easier to mistakenly think you hit the stud when you didn't.

Here's where I think there's a lot of confusion on everyone's part. :?: :?: :?: Yes, we are talking about many different types of outer leaf walls:

• The "exterior stucco wall," which I've been calling the "east wall"
• The "back wall" (with the contractor graffiti all over it), which is the "south wall." My office is on the other side of this wall. It will be three-leaf due to the fact that I don't want to remove the structural OSB already in place. I will definitely wait until the concrete work is done before I beef up this wall with (hopefully) multiple (4?) layers of 5/8" drywall.
• The "right side" wall, which I've been referring to as the "west wall." It is 8 feet long and the laundry room is on the opposite side. Instead of stucco/styrofoam/paper, I'm dealing with 1/2" of drywall on the laundry room side.
• There is also going to be a new section of west wall that will extend into the garage. This wall will be entirely new construction and is represented in the framing illustration above as "Right Outer Leaf Wall from Outside."
• Completing the crooked rectangle is the "north wall" which will also be new construction.

Here's another look at the floorplan:

. . . you probably ARE better off doing the floor first.

I hear you, Dan... (And Steve...) Since I'm already figuring on postponing the south wall beef-up effort until the floor is done, I suppose I should postpone the east and (partial) west walls as well. :roll: Another advantage would be that the nuances of beefing can be argued here ad nauseum whilst I get jiggy with concrete... :roll: Killing my delivery will take the pressure off. Damn. I thought I'd be at least somewhat protected from this "flopping around like a fish out of water" syndrome, given the rather insane amount of planning I underwent! :? --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: Mike, lots of love for your sincere "Rookie of the Year" award remarks. 8) The following image is a repeat of the image above, Klooster-style.

What you're proposing (not the last drawing, it's not necessary to rotate the cleats like that) the number of layers you're planning will be heavy, but as Dan mentioned they will bear DOWNwards. Using a thin bead of glue around the inserts' perimeters AND screws into the OSB will work fine. You can't put screws much closer together though, you want to keep at least a couple inches between screw holes in the OSB for strength - with 4 layers, offsetting screws by 2" each layer you'd be limited to 4 layers. So each layer's schedule should not be closer than 8". The final layer being screwed to cleats should work fine, just be sure this doesn't cause any air gap between the last two layers. I'm not sure why I didn't catch (or comment) on your 16" centers earlier - possibly exhaustion, seems like a good excuse :oops: - thing is, although a "floppier" wall with high mass is slightly better than a stiffer wall with the same mass, your level of "overkill" should negate 99% of any ill effects. IF you were doing just two layers of rock each side, I'd strongly suggest you change your inner frame to 24" centers. As it is now, I doubt you could get yourself in trouble with neighbors even after breaking a dozen pairs of sticks and splitting a couple of heads... Steve

To keep your new walls "safe" while you demo the concrete floor, couldn't you get the cheapest plywood or even 3/8" drywall and lay it up against the new walls (long edge down) to make kind of a super baseboard that would absorb the damage and then be tossed? It might cost a little but it would protect your walls from concrete splashes and the errant jack hammer. PS: If you use a jack hammer to get out the old floor, start in the MIDDLE of the floor until you get the hang of it. Personal experience! Long story, don't ask! :-) len

start in the MIDDLE of the floor Good call, Len :lol: As to your suggestion about protecting the new work, that would help for SOME forms of "oopsies" - personally, since I own a full-size industrial backhoe, I tend to assume that ANYTHING can be destroyed if we TRY hard enough :oops: hence my advice to do ALL demo before putting things up we want to SAVE :? Steve

Well, with a backhoe, I could do some SERIOUS damage. I seem to remember somewhere earlier in the thread he said he was going to use a cement saw to score and then break out blocks (with a jack hammer) and remove them so based on personal experience, I was suggesting "practicing" with the jack hammer in the middle of the room. I'm 6' tall but only weigh 118 lbs so the first (and only) time I rented a jack hammer to break up an old concrete patio in the back yard, I had trouble holding it and it really looked more like I was riding a pogo stick! Fun was had by all... len

len-morgan wrote:

I'm 6' tall but only weigh 118 lbs so the first (and only) time I rented a jack hammer to break up an old concrete patio in the back yard, I had trouble holding it and it really looked more like I was riding a pogo stick! Fun was had by all... len

Man, and I thought I was skinny! I'm 6'3" and about 150 lbs. Skinny Studio Builders of the World Unite! :D

knightfly wrote:

Using a thin bead of glue around the inserts' perimeters AND screws into the OSB will work fine.

OK then. Settled. 8" spacing on screws into OSB, with glue along the edges for added protection. To clarify: Specifically, I'll be applying a bead of adhesive on the back of each strip, about an inch from the edge on the left and right sides. :!: I'm figuring on using a Liquid Nails product that seems appropriate for use on drywall. Please let me know right away if there is a specific product recommendation or, especially, if this is not a good idea. By the way, I had originally planned to put the strips up in two pieces, just so that they'd be easier to work with. Indeed, this will be necessary due to the "stringers" present in about half of the bays. I'm assuming now from the talk of stud spacing and such that I would be better off using full height panels (which is possible -- I'm getting 10' length boards) when possible. Please let me know if for some reason I should do two halves for each layer, regardless of the presence of a stringer.

You can't put screws much closer together though, you want to keep at least a couple inches between screw holes in the OSB for strength - with 4 layers, offsetting screws by 2" each layer you'd be limited to 4 layers. So each layer's schedule should not be closer than 8". The final layer being screwed to cleats should work fine, just be sure this doesn't cause any air gap between the last two layers.

Yes, 2" spacing layer-to-layer will be good. Yes, there should not be an air gap -- that's why I'm doing three 1/2" panels because the sum thickness of them total the depth of the 1 1/2" cleats.

. . . your level of "overkill" should negate 99% of any ill effects [of the 16" stud spacing].

Cool. 8) I didn't want to risk making such a material change to the plans.

As it is now, I doubt you could get yourself in trouble with neighbors even after breaking a dozen pairs of sticks and splitting a couple of heads...

This is the assurance I love to read!!! :mrgreen:

len-morgan wrote:

you get the cheapest plywood or even 3/8" drywall and lay it up against the new walls (long edge down) to make kind of a super baseboard that would absorb the damage and then be tossed?

Len, you'll be pleased to know that my father-in-law told me the same thing this morning (before I had a chance to read your idea). Although Steve makes some great points about the advantages of doing demolition work first, my father-in-law was concerned about such things as tripping over J-bolts in the new slab. I didn't take that warning too seriously, but he "stuck to his guns" so to speak. And since he may be assisting me with the concrete demolition and he's blind (really -- and he doesn't let that get in his way of doing some pretty amazing things 8)), I think I'll take Len's advice and use some of my yet-unused OSB for that purpose. :) A little while ago I received a call from AMS confirming delivery tomorrow. I told them to "assume a go" for 7 AM delivery unless they heard from me. My deadline for canceling the delivery is 4 PM (PDT) today. At this point I'm inclined to go ahead with the delivery and work on beef this 4-day weekend as per the above fastening plan! :twisted: My sincere thanks to Steve, Len, and of course Dan, for their help in clearing the fuzz! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) Huge Servings of Beef - Coming Right Up!!!

Ha! I'm 6 feet tall and I weigh more than both of you (Len and Stick) combined!! :lol: No wonder they call you Stick! ;-) Hey, Len -- great advice on jackhammering. I'll be most interested in hearing your experiences busting up concrete in excruciating detail as I have none! :roll: Don't worry -- we won't laugh at you... At least not in front of you... :lol: --Keith "Not A Stick (But I Used To Be)" Sharward :mrgreen:

Keith - buy ONE tube of the product you think you want to use - put a light bead of it on a piece of scrap gypsum, pretend you're doing all the things that get in the way of immediate application of the gypsum to the stud cavity, then press it against another piece of scrap gypsum and see how much it squishes out, and how tight together the two pieces of gypsum end up. If there is a visible gap, the stuff is too thick for this application. (quite a few construction adhesives ARE too thick and/or quick setting.) - The instruction that's written on nearly every chemical sold, the one that says "try in an inconspicuous place", or "test on scrap first" - not just a CYA tactic... Len - where I come from we'd call your jackhammer ride "tail wagging the dog" :? - not a lotta fun... Steve

Great advice, Steve. Consider it taken. (I'll probably buy the quantity I I'll need with a plan to exchange for a different product after testing it as you described.) Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls... Behold -- thousands of pounds of drywall!! :mrgreen: The forklift wouldn't fit into the garage -- the 7 foot clearance of the door was too low. So the guy brought the material up to the top of the driveway, and then the two of us stacked it on the floor -- 5/8" first (since it's going up last), and 1/2" on top of that. Thinking ahead a few days ago, I made 4' long strips of OSB on which to stack the drywall. 8) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Let the beef begin!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Oh to have a stack of drywall sitting in the garage... sigh. Rock ON! (Get it... "rock"... like as in sheet "rock"?! HA HA HA HA! Bet no one's ever heard that one around here!) :lol:

Well, it may not seem like I've done too much, but I'm still getting used to working with drywall. Overall, pretty easy. The 1/2" stuff is a breeze to work with. I purchased five 28-ouce tubes of LIQUID NAILS® Professional Heavy Duty Construction Adhesive (LNP-903). It works great. I tested it as per Dr. Knightfly's prescription, and it passed the test with flying colors. It's gooey but thin enough to compress nicely. It also cleans up easily. I used one of my left-over 10-foot long 1x2s to make a color-coded fastener placement guide. I used four colored Sharpies to create lines that are 2 inches apart. Each color is repeated every 8 inches. Two 1 5/8" screws temporarily attach the guide to a nearby stud. Works great!! 8) I took a couple of pictures of what's been done so far: two bays, three layers of 1/2", with staggered seams. (I had no choice but to cut each layer to fit behind the stringer.) I kind of messed up the color coding on the far-right bay, but I'm onto a system now: first layer red, second layer green, third layer blue. Fourth layer will be silver. I plan to do all the 1/2" work first, then attach all of the 5/8" after that. I need to order Green Glue and get it delivered before I do the 5/8 stuff. I'm eating dinner while I type this. I may work a bit more this evening on it -- it would be good to get another bay done before I call it a night. I've got three more days ahead of me to commit beefage! --Keith :mrgreen:

cool screw-gauge keith! i'm starting to get the idea that there is always a smarter way to do something if you think about it long enough. :)

Looks great Keith. Can't wait to see more! :D

I just purchased a case of Green Glue. The total was US$210.83, including shipping. :shock: I'll probably need to buy more later, but at that price, I'd rather not stock up on that stuff.

Cool to see getting started! :D I am still getting all of the non-profit paper work together. It also looks like we will be going into a real location.......so back to the drawing board for the studio plans. I will post them as soon as they are ready. Keep up the great work....good luck on all that sheetrock work!!! :wink:

Hey -- good to see you again, Vair! 8) Thanks for the encouragement! :mrgreen: Tonight I finished the first three layers of beef on the west wall. I'm really surprised how long it's taking! :? Truthfully, it's just mind-numbing, tedius, and achy work. I say "achy" because, quite frankly, I'm really out of shape, so all the stooping and standing and stooping and standing for two days in a row is quite a workout! :shock: This was to be expected though. I surely need the exercise! Hopefully I'll get all (or at least most) of the first three layers of beef-up work done over the next two days -- if I can stay motivated to keep up the drudgery! :evil: If not, then I'll poke at it during the week while I await arrival of the Green Glue. --Keith :mrgreen:

I was only able to fill three stud bays today with the 3 layers of 1/2 stuff. :? Slow going, but moving along. I had to drive all over town today to replenish my screw and nail supply... Local Home Depot totally out of stock of 1" drywall screws, so I had to go to the Home Depot that's 12 miles away... And they didn't have the 1 1/2" drywall screws, so I had to travel another 10-15 miles to the nearest Lowe's for those. :evil: At the rate I'm going, I'll have three 1/2" sheets left over, and I think I'll have 1, maybe 2 sheets of 5/8" left over. --Keith :mrgreen: