FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

Good question Sharward. I'm at the point on my project where I would like to see an answere to that question also. Frank

i am not sealing my gaps between the osb and the studs, because i don't know how i would seal them, since the cleat will be in my way, and teh osb won't be attached until the cleat is on. but, i am definitely sealing the gap between each layer of drywall and the studs. and i am using backing rod. overkill??? i don't know. but i am doing it :lol: doing this sealing is probably the least difficult part of the project in my opinion so why skimp there. my .02 ... now i'll be off the board for a few days ... baby came!! see ya dan :)

Congratulations (again) on the arrival of Baby Fitzpatrick, Dan! (I posted my congrats on your project thread, so hopefully all of your well-deserved "me toos" will end up there and not here! Ha! :evil:) Anyway, great news! :D (That is, until it changes! :lol:) I just got my permission slip not to fret about the gaps in my beef-up efforts! I want to make sure everyone understands that this is appropriate in my situation, and it may not be appropriate in yours. Bottom line, what I have learned (and I hope it's correct -- it certainly seems to be) is that air tightness is critical, but maintaining 100% consistent thickness of your leaves is not critical. Of course this does have a limit -- it's not an excuse to, for example, only beef up 90% of a wall. I also would imagine the outcome would be worse if the compromise were consolidated into one area (i.e., one large void as opposed to dozens of thin 1/4" to 3/8" slices). This lesson may also have some application to those with "wavy stucco syndrome." :roll: Oh yeah -- I forgot to mention that I got the OK from my boss to take (on average) one day off of work each week to work on my room! 8) I have about 200 hours of PTO saved up, and I earn it at a rate slightly slower than I'd burn it. I'm committed to not making this schedule a burden for my employer, so I actually schedule my days off so that they don't conflict with the on-call schedule, where I'm on a 3-week rotation. So, in actuality, for the foreseeable future, my weekends are 4-day, then 3-day, then 2-day, and then the cycle repeats. I expect to get a lot done with all the extended weekends! :twisted: Mmmmm, I know what I'm having a lot of this weekend! --Keith :mrgreen:

I was typing the last post while waiting for Concrete Contractor #2 to show up. He didn't. :evil: And, truth be told, I had a feeling that was going to happen. :roll: Also, Concrete Contractor #1, who was all excited about the job, very motivated to give me an unbeatable price, and trumpeting his outstanding quality, has failed to get back in touch with me with a final quote after consulting with his licensed contractor buddy. So, for the last few days, I've been resigning myself to the possibility -- the probability -- that I'll be doing most of the concrete work on my own: the cutting, the jackhammering, the removal, the digdown, the compacting, the prepping, the rebar, the forms. I'll probably contract out the actual mixing and pouring (at least the main pour). In light of this reality, I visited my friendly neighborhood equipment rental outlet to get some quotes for a walk-behind concrete cutter, a demolition hammer, and a 20" plate compactor. Each runs about US$70/day, plus I'd have to buy a blade for about $120. I'm not one of those people with more guts than skill. Truth is, I'm more than a little nervous about using such "heavy equipment" (which probably seems rather silly to some). However, the more I get used to the idea, and the more I learn about it, the more confidence I gain in taking on this part of my project. This is, after all, a fraction of the effort that Sir Paul went through excavating for his project, and if he can do it (albeit with rosy cheeks, and not the good kind either!), then dammit, so can I! :twisted: (That's me psyching myself up. :roll:) Does anyone think I'm nuts for considering doing this part of the project on my own? If not, I could use all the confidence boosting posts I can get! :shock: --Keith :mrgreen:

well, don't sweat the jackhammering and tamping, that's for sure! that doesn't, of course, exactly mean it's fun or anything.... :cry: :twisted:

To the contrary, I think sweating is what I'll be doing a lot of! :roll: :lol: Thanks much for the encouragement!! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

I've been busy tonight! :twisted: First I applied a bead (technically many beads) of sealant between the joists along the soleplate where it meets the flashing. (Some areas along that gap were so large that I could have passed a short pencil down the gap and it would land on the walkway on the side of my house! :shock:) After I did that, I realized that I should do the same to the top plate. And then when I realized that I would be unable to seal these areas where the studs were located, I decided to go ahead and seal up along the studs as well -- something I had planned to do this all along, though I did entertain the idea of not doing that part in light of my question and answer on StudioTips.com. To clarify, I am not planning to use backer rod and sealant on the OSB and subsequent gypsum layers to maintain their thickness around their edges. This is all about the sealing. I used seven 28 ounce tubes tonight, using a 3/8" bead and then spreading it with a paper towel. The beads were imperfect anyway, and I wanted to ensure a good "bite" along the surfaces. Plus, there was at least one area where I was unable to position the nozzle right where the sealant needed to be applied. Unfortunately, I had to work with the doors closed, thanks to our West Nile Virus epidemic... so, as you can imagine, the garage stinks of acoustic sealant! :roll: It's not that bad really -- maybe a little more offensive than latex paint. I'm going to try to air the garage out in the morning for a couple of hours before I go to work. The stuff I got on my hands washed off very easily (yay!). You'll also see a stack of 14 4x8 OSB sheets (15/32" thick) and 40 1x2s (actually 5/8" x 1 1/2") that I will use as cleats to hold the OSB firmly against the inside of the outside wall (in addition to the Liquid Nails of course). I'm going to feel like I'm really accomplishing something once I start getting some of that beef on the walls! :-D --Keith :mrgreen:

Alright!!! Building supplies. Very good to see them Keith. Frank

Hi Keith, Concrete work - been there done that - in short pay someone to do it. Its hard dirty work that pros do alot better than weekend warriors. That looks like New Zealand Radiata Pine you are using!! - Just a freindly plug to buy New Zealand Radiata Pine - should be able to find it at Lowes or Home Depot - You never know it might be from my sawmill!!! It feels great to get underway dosn't it!! JohnG

Thanks for your thoughts on the concrete work, JohnG. Believe me, I'm not thrilled about the idea of doing that work myself... And the more I learn, the more I kind of dread doing any of that labor. :roll: However, I just don't think I'm going to have a choice in the matter. I have some good news though. A friend of mine -- someone I have known for 12 years and who also happens to be my gardner -- has had some experience cutting concrete. He cut strips in his driveway and placed clay bricks in the voids -- it came out very nice. Although I can tell he's not exactly thrilled about it, he said he'd help me. Basically, he's going to help me "as a friend" for nothing -- but, golly gee whiz -- he's going to get some really really nice tips for doing such lovely work in my yard (wink wink ;-) ;-) ) Nooooo, this isn't me hiring an unlicensed contractor, no sirreeeeee! 8) He actually suggests not using the jackhammer for breaking up the concrete. Instead, since I'll have the walk-behind concrete saw anyway, he suggested scoring the field a bunch of ways and then using a sledge hammer to break it up. He said the jackhammer -- even the baby electric one that I was planning to use -- are brutal on the body. :roll: We'll see how that goes. Anyway, back to the real reason I'm here -- I've got progress to report! 8) 8) 8) Today was great -- I took the day off of work to begin actual work on beefing up that east wall that I exposed. The sheet rack works wonderfully! :D Below are a few photos, including a before and after shot of a 4x8 sheet of OSB getting ripped with my circular saw on the sheet rack. Recall that I'm a bit "chicken" of power tools, but this setup is so slick that I'm very comfortable with making the cuts. The lumber is firmly clamped, and the terrific guide that I fashioned using two strips of OSB fastened together with four screws (marked by screwdrivers for your benefit ;-)) makes the process speedy and safe -- the cut piece just flips away and doesn't bind the saw. Plus, I can keep both hands firmly and comfortably on the saw and both feet squarely upon the floor as I shuffle down the line. Slicker than snot on a doorknob! :mrgreen: Also shown are the OSB strip with Liquid Nails just prior to being affixed to the cavity against the building paper, and then the 1x2 cleats holding it firmly into place. Note that this first layer of OSB is not complete -- there's a little less than 2 feet left to do at the top of each cavity, plus some other areas that still need attention. I worked until 10 PM tonight -- basically until I ran out of Liquid Nails... And energy. ;-) For cryin' out loud -- congratulate me for doing something substantial!! (And getting over my fear of the Skilsaw! :lol:) --Keith :mrgreen:

nice work ... and nice job 'splainin' ... :) i need to make a sheet rack like that, that is very cool. i may even have an old table to put it on, now that i think of it ... from the looks of things you'll be done in a couple more weeks :D dan

getting over my fear of the Skilsaw Fear, yes; respect, NEVER - right after losing respect for power tools, the next loss is typically a favorite appendage... Very cool method on the panel rack BTW - especially since few of our members have either a table or radial saw. As possibly the oldest member of the board (got John beat by a few months) I tend to forget things like this since I have 'way more tools than any sane man needs :oops: including 12" table and radial saws, band saws (both metal and woodworking), wood lathe, 2 jointers, 2 routers, 2 skil saws (worm drive and a lightweight mag framed sidewinder by Porter Cable), drill press, arc and gas welders, at least 3 bench grinders, about a dozen various drills, screw gun, nearly every air tool commonly drooled over, dremel, Roto-zip, 5 side grinders, 2 air compressors (one that just barely fits under my garage door), 10-ton porta-power, full-size backhoe, 3 air nailers (don't recommend 'em for this forum), and probably as many others forgotten as I've listed - did I mention that I'm insane??!? :roll: Anyway, Keithers, congrats on the official "foot wetting", yeaaahhh !!! Suggestion for your subsequent layer of 'beef" - instead of Liquid nails, use Green Glue and screws - from everything I've seen at Brian's site the stuff really works. Not cheap, but few things are that actually do the job. http://www.audioalloy.com/welcome.html For those who've NOT been to Studiotips in the last year or so... Steve

On groovemastergreg's project thread, Dan wrote:

. . . you definitely do NOT want to glue your sheetrock panels together, because this will lower the resonant frequency (aka coincidence frequency) of the assembly. the coincidence frequency is where the panel itself performs most poorly (deviates from normal straight-slope mass law). unglued panels = several, high-frequency coincidence frequencies glued panels = one, lower-frequency coincidence frequency higher frequency is better because in general any wall performs better at high frequencies. (source)

So far I have been gluing the OSB to the building paper just prior to installing the cleats. Is this bad? :shock: And I'm planning on doing the same thing to the other two walls, adjacent to my office and laundry room. Should I not do this? I figured it would help keep them from vibrating -- plus, these are just strips, not entire contiguous wall layers! :roll: Please let me know ASAP, as more gluing is on deck for tomorrow morning! :!:

keith, i was afraid that might alarm you :) i think you are fine on glueing the first layer of osb. i'm not going to glue mine, but only because the surface i'd be glueing to (paper) is probably not secure enough to offer any extra support. but, when you do your wallboard layers, you do not want to glue them together. i'm talking about regular glue here, not Green Glue. i'm sure green glue is great stuff ... if you can afford it. it will cost you about $30 per 4x8 foot area at the price on the manufacturer's web site and if used as directed, shipping not included. that's about the cost of 3 sheets of 5/8 drywall in my area. the fact that you're using narrow strips might make the glued vs. non-glued difference less. usually this rule is talked about in the context of applying full sheets of drywall. but, even if you are using full sheets of drywall you are screwing them to studs at 16" or 24" intervals, and the coincidence effect still applies. so, i'd think it would apply here as well. dan

Funny -- I've seen Green Glue mentioned often around here, yet I've never really investigated it. I had always assumed that since I was doing a complete "room in a room" system, I wouldn't need anything like that for decoupling. How concerned should I be about damping? Remember, I'm going to use Thermafiber or Roxul all around, slightly overfilled. At the price of over $1 per square foot per layer - about four times the cost of the layers themselves -- I have to ask: Is this really necessary in my case? If so, between each layer on my inner and outer leaves? :shock: :shock: :shock: To clarify (Steve), I'm only gluing my OSB strips before I cleat them tightly to the surface (felt in the case of the east wall, and gypsum wallboard in the case of the south and west walls). I plan to attach 5/8" gypsum strips to the 15/32" OSB with screws. In other words, the OSB's job is more to just give me something solid to screw into -- it also happens to feature some mass. If I do two layers of 5/8", I figure that I'll have the equivalent of maybe 3.5 layers of 5/8" when all is said and done. I may even do a third layer if I feel inspired, especially on my east (exterior) wall. This is not a pleasant surprise! :cry: --Keith :mrgreen:

When you combine two different mass materials, each has its own coincidence frequency; when you bond them together, you create a new coincidence frequency that's different from either material; it will be related to the AVERAGE mass of COMBINED materials. What it will NOT be, is two SEPARATE and COMPLIMENTARY coincidence "dips" if the materials are bonded together. In this particular case, you may not have a choice; if your stucco is too uneven, NOT gluing may cause rattles; I would count these as more detrimental than a common coincidence frequency. One mitigating factor is that coincidence frequency of a combined stucco and OSB leaf, glued together, will NOT be the same as multi-layer drywall of the same thickness; although stucco is approx. 20% heavier than gypsum wallboard and OSB is approx. 20% lighter, your outer wall layers won't be the same THICKNESS as your inner ones so coincidence won't match. 1" of stucco would have a coincidence at around 1250 hZ; 15/32 OSB would have a coincidence of around 3630 hZ; combined at those thicknesses, they would give an outer leaf with a coincidence of about 1500 hZ; 5/8 drywall has a coincidence of around 2530 hZ, same with multi-layers. If you were to have 1" stucco with 15/32" OSB and 2 layers of 5/8 drywall, you should be aproaching (assuming 12" air gap) STC 79, with TL @ 50 hZ of around 53 dB; using an 8" air gap instead this would worsen to 50 dB @ 50 hZ, but STC would remain at 79. mam would be around 25 hZ with wider gap, 31 hZ with the 8" gap. Insulation will indeed help damping, but from the tests I've seen GG absolutely KILLS in that respect; I know it's expensive, but using it between the last two layers of wallboard (ONLY; and only on the OUTSIDE wall) would make a noticeable difference in LF TL; and where you're at with your current wall intentions, it would likely make the diff between ALMOST inaudible and COMPLETELY inaudible with live drums. (no other changes - you'd still want to insulate as planned) Just a thought... Steve

OK. I think I'm getting this, and I think I'm appreciating some of the economies you're talking about.

knightfly wrote:

1" of stucco . . .

Unfortunately, I don't have 1" of stucco. I think I have about 3/8" to 1/2" of stucco on about 1" of styrofoam. (I realize the styrofoam counts for zilch in terms of mass, but at least it's closed cell and is part of the overall outer leaf mass equation.) I'm assuming I can make up for this less sufficient stucco scenario by adding a third layer of 5/8" gypsum, right? Also, I've been toying around with using three layers of 1/2" moisture-resistant gypsum panels, like this stuff. I realize that's less mass than 3 layers of 5/8", but since the cleats are only 1 1/2" deep, I figured it would be a cleaner install. :roll:

. . . assuming 12" air gap . . .

Yes, that's a safe assumption. 8) (Actually, it will be about 11½" -- so I can use two 6" batts and get slight compression.)

Insulation will indeed help damping, but from the tests I've seen GG absolutely KILLS in that respect; I know it's expensive, but using it between the last two layers of wallboard (ONLY; and only on the OUTSIDE wall) would make a noticeable difference in LF TL; and where you're at with your current wall intentions, it would likely make the diff between ALMOST inaudible and COMPLETELY inaudible with live drums. (no other changes - you'd still want to insulate as planned)

Whew! :!: OK, that's easier to digest. So, we're not talking about using Green Glue everywhere -- just between the final two layers of beef-up gyp ("final" meaning the last two layers installed). I think I can handle that. I suppose I should also beat this dead horse a bit -- the gaps along the edges of the beef-up strips along the studs. :roll: I've pretty much gotten the OK from the brains at StudioTips not to worry about those gaps -- as long as the leaf is air-tight (it is), the cracks shouldn't have much of an impact on TL, particularly the low-end TL I'm working so hard on achieving. (See my question and their answers.) "Speak now or forever hold your peace" on that! ;) Here's an illustration that clarifies the three options I'm contemplating. Any chance you can do your Insul calculator magic on each of these for me, and comment? As always, thanks, Steve. You're definitely invited to the grand opening party. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Progress! 8) My "beef-up base OSB" on the east wall is pretty much done now, except two narrow cavities (each about 3-5" wide) which I'll deal with last. I was hoping to tear off more drywall today, but I was working at a pretty slow pace today. Doesn't this OSB just look like it's screaming for some beef? :twisted: :?: Steve, questions for you are in the previous post. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Looks nice Keith! It's funny how we start appreciating pictures of framing and such after being here for a while. Frank

yeah ever think youd be sneakin around at night just so you could see them....oh shit my wifes coming!

Ha! :lol: Thanks guys... I know exactly what you mean. I'm glad you appreciate the progress reports and photos. It's a motivation factor for me too. Yesterday I almost quit before finishing those top pieces, but the thought of taking the pictures and posting them here gave me the boost I needed to finish up. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

Looks good Keith... So, one little question. I'm still a litte foggy on the cleat system in the beef-up wall. The OSB is not screwed to anything right? Is it glued? The cleat screwed to the stud is holding it in? Then you screw the drywall to the OSB? Is that the idea?

Ok, nevermind. I just went back and read up on what I'd missed the last couple days... glue, then cleats. Makes sense. All good. Get back to work.

Right you are, Stick. I can't screw drywall into styrofoam -- and even if I could, I'd be penetrating the building paper all over the place, which would defeat the purpose of the paper being there.

I'll be doing the same thing, but to an interior wall that is just 1 layer of 1/2" drywall... is there a way to do it without the OSB layer? Could I get 2 layers of 5/6" drywall up against it somehow with cleats? I dont' think I'd be able to screw them together is the problem... glueing drywall together doesn't seem that cool... hmmm... Of course, doing the OSB, then 2 layers of drywall would probably wouldn't hurt... and since I'll probably be able to do that bit myself, it won't cost me any more labor time.