I spoke with Brian at the acoustic engineering firm today. We sort of recapped our meeting from a few weeks ago of the basic room-within-a-room plan with no floating floor (but isolating the slab on the repour), and he really thinks it's a good plan.
He hasn't run any calculations to determine the exact performance of 3 layers of gypsum yet, and he has some doubt that the calculation tools they have will even be able to account for the mixing and matching of layer materials.
He's going to spec out kind of a "mini documentation package" -- kind of high level wall construction details, some TL estimates at various ranges, specs for door seals, etc., and e-mail me with what I'd get for about $500-600. Then I can decide whether or not I want to pay them the money to do those things.
I'll wait to see the ingredients on that menu before deciding... But I'm kind of leaning towards not buying it, because I think it's going to end up telling me what I basically have already learned here. ;) (Brian just about said so himself.)
Regardless, the $246 I have already paid them did buy me some peace of mind, and a permission slip not to float the floor.
This weekend I think I'll work on illustrations of framing, HVAC, electrical, and other stuff to hopefully hit a home run at the city permit office. I'm aiming for a permit next week! :mrgreen:
I may also remove an exploratory chunk of drywall from the east (exterior) wall -- I'd like to see what I'm dealing with there... :roll: Hopefully I'll have a flat surface to work with, unlike my Dublin and Stockton Brothers from Other Mothers.
:lol:
the first one :twisted:
i hear he might need work bad, maybe he will do a little demolition for ya.
seriously ... if you are lucky, you have osb under your stucco ... good luck :)
Hey Dan -- I too am a "man of action" and I didn't smack into a solid header! :lol:Special note to my city's building department: I am not starting construction without a permit! I am conducting research! Oh, and that polo shirt looks great on you! Have you lost a few pounds? ;)
I'm pleased to report that the inside surface of my exterior wall is very flat... And I believe that's because it appears that the first layer of my exterior wall is 1/2" or 7/16" OSB!
I have learned that my exterior wall's mass is about 2" thick. This includes the stucco and the OSB and whatever is in between -- I believe it is some kind of foam.
It appears that I may be able to attach my "beef up" layer(s) with screws directly to the OSB. However, that would cause penetration of the building paper, and I don't think that's wise. Perhaps a better way to go would be to use an adhesive and cleats attached to the studs.
Of course, now that I think about it, the building paper is already penetrated with staples where it attaches to the studs! :roll: Maybe I'm better off screwing into the OSB, predrilling the holes and filling the holes with caulk before driving the screws -- that would, in theory, seal each hole, kind of like a liquid grommet! :?:Any thoughts on this idea?
I'm also considering using WonderBoard for my beef-up layer(s). I know it's more expensive (about 6-8 times the cost of 5/8" gypsum I think) and more difficult to work with... But it is able to withstand moisture better than regular gypsum. I estimate that beefing up the exterior wall with two layers of WonderBoard would cost me about $600-$800 for the WonderBoard alone. :?:Any thoughts on using WonderBoard for this application?Progress, finally!:mrgreen:
good job "breaking ground" on your project!!!! :) i mean, er, NOT. research, yeah ... THAT'S it ...
congrats on having a flat interior!! you have saved yourself a pile of headache.
i'm very interested to hear more about your plan to attach wallboard OR wonderboard to your surface without screwing into the OSB. i've been trying to think of a cunning plan for this but very little success.
using cleats doesn't seem workable because each layer has to be attached and caulked seperately. so each layer would need it's own cleats. i'm too tired to explain this properly, sorry. i've had a busy day. no, mostly NOT working on my studio :(
i've even considered using adhesive to bond a layer of OSB to my stucco just so i would have something to screw into. so your pre-existing OSB has me drooling. but you're right it doesn't seem good to put more holes in the building paper.
although, if you have OSB you probably aren't going to be dealing with liquid water coming in, just vapor. and the building paper will retard vapor just as well with a few holes in it. or 99.99999% as well. vapor is ok. it comes in, and it goes out, nobody gets hurt.
anyway, i've just buried keith's question about using wonderboard. so i'll remind whoever else reads this to let us all know about the deal with wonderboard, is it a good idea or what.
dan :)
using cleats doesn't seem workable because each layer has to be attached and caulked seperately. so each layer would need it's own cleats. i'm too tired to explain this properly, sorry.
Don't be sorry -- I get your drift. In fact, I had already thought of this. One way would be to use two sets of cleats -- say, 2½" x 1" for the first layer, and then 1½ x 1" for the 2nd layer, driving the 2nd cleats through the first and into the stud. Now I'm to tired to explain that properly, so hopefully you'll get my drift! ;)
although, if you have OSB you probably aren't going to be dealing with liquid water coming in, just vapor. and the building paper will retard vapor just as well with a few holes in it. or 99.99999% as well. vapor is ok. it comes in, and it goes out, nobody gets hurt.
Ahhhh, I see! Yeah, knock on wood, my paper doesn't look like I've had leaks like yours does! :twisted:
anyway, i've just buried keith's question about using wonderboard. so i'll remind whoever else reads this to let us all know about the deal with wonderboard, is it a good idea or what.
Always the gentleman, Dan. 8) Yes, please comment on that, folks... Although Dan's point about "not liquid water" may apply, such that I may not need to be quite so paranoid about using plain ol' gypsum and just screwin' it right to the OSB through the paper! :roll:
1. Obtain Hammer Time "A."
2. Strike Hammer Time "A" with Hammer Time "B."
3. Repeat step 2.
;)
quote]
It really came to my mind when I saw that, but I thought you're maybe a big fan and since you are such a sensitive being I didn't want to hurt your feelings :D
On the other hand you seem to have all the means to let steam off in the moment. Poor walls!
I'm pretty excited about a discovery I made recently -- the Soleus MAC-10K 10,000 BTU Evaporative Portable Air Conditioner with Dehumidifier and Heater -- an inexpensive system that can be attached to a wall [edit: no, it can't -- the "wall mount" portion of the owner's manual refers to the hose connections -- poorly written Chinese translation! Arghhhh!], and (here's the kicker!) supplies actual air circulation!
Here's my latest floor plan, taking into account the new isolated slab pours and the cool little HVAC system.
I did extend the fresh and exhaust air ducts by a few feet. In truth, there is a note advising against this in the owner's manual:
NOTE: In order to increase the efficiency, the exhaust ducts should be keeping as short and straight as possible. It is not recommended to increase the manufacturer’s length of the exhaust hose. This may impede or damage the unit.
The hose usually is 5 feet and 5" in diameter. If you need an extended hose, you can buy it from hardware stores.
I figure -- hopefully not erroneously -- that the PVC pipe I intend to use is smoother inside than the flexible hoses that come with the unit, so perhaps that will help mitigate the ill effects of the extension. In a worst case scenario, I'll bite the bullet and penetrate the stucco wall with a couple of new holes . . . Although, in an effort to protect the integrity of the wall and ensure no water leak damage in the future, I would really prefer not to go that route.
Also, I realize the unit is a little noisy at 46 db(A) at its most aggressive settings. However, given the fact that comfort, safety, avoidance of moisture damage, and cost are more important to me than silence of operation, that is a penalty I'm willing to accept. Plus, I was planning to run a dehumidifier much of the time anyway, and now I won't have to! 8)
I really hope this little HVAC system passes the stink test here, because if it does, I think I've got a sure win for approval by the city, and I'll be saving thousands of dollars by being able to do the HVAC installation myself! Please let it be! :shock:Ooooo, lookee -- GIFs with transparent background -- they look much nicer than JPEGs!8)
ok kettle here's your comment :) (inside joke)
one option might be to go UP with the hoses. you could also mount the unit up high on the wall, so it's out of the way.
that way, you might have a shorter run, and you'd definitely have a straighter run. you could then run the air through a silencer in the attic before it hits outside. any sound that escapes the silencer be headed upward, so less problematic.
by silencer i mean a relatively huge box full of rockwool with a 5 inch diameter (or equivalent area) passage to one side of it's rather long length. this should absorb sound. it's what paul woodlock used for his studio, so if nothing else it has that going for it.
i wonder if anyone has any comments on this silencer technique. i haven't seen it talked about much outside Paul's thread.
Man, great minds think alike. I did consider mounting high and going up, and I still might. However, I would then probably have to go through the roof, and that could get ugly. I'd want professional help with that for sure.
However, I would be less nervous about poking a hole through the wall up high, under the eaves, since there wouldn't be any rain water hitting that area of the wall. The silencer box would then have to be inside the room near the ceiling.
The "existing vent" thing would be easiest and safest in my opinion, but doing something like you've described may offer better isolation and possibly better health of the HVAC.
Thoughts, peoples?
you have some kind of tile on your roof i bet. that's all the rage these days.
i have composition shingle, which is a piece of cake to put holes in, i've done it many times without problems.
Yup. Exactly.
[url=http://home.surewest.net/sharward/studio/fiber.jpg]Recovered from web.archive.org — originally hosted at http://home.surewest.net/sharward/studio/fiber-small.jpgENLARGE THIS IMAGE[/URL]
Hi Keith,
maybe I'm not the guy you wanted to hear something about that, but like Dan, I thought of some plenum silencers.
Incase you didn't see, Barefoot didi a sketch in the thread you resurrected:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=644
And have a look here:
http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/art ... lation.htm
On the other side I'm not sure if a plenum could help you at all, cause it seems the noise is coming from the unit directly right? (I have no experience with units like this).
It probably won't help much, but below I attached pics from my vent-system, you can see round plenum silencers (lined with 10cm glasswool around). You see the mufflers going to the controlroom. The outlets inside the room are also going to be a special plenum to slow down the airflow.
I hope it's coming out really quiet.
Any chance you get a similar system to the unit you have an eye on you could place in another room and run ducts to the studio like in my system?
Hope you find a pleasent solution!
Greetings
Florian
Thanks for that. I had seen that before but it was good seeing it again now that I'm in "HVAC Mode." :)
On the other side I'm not sure if a plenum could help you at all, cause it seems the noise is coming from the unit directly right? (I have no experience with units like this).
True, it would not quiet down the noise inside the room -- and that's OK. However, I think Dan's concern is that noise generated inside the room may leak outside through the exhaust and intake piping. A silencer box might minimize that.
It probably won't help much, but below I attached pics from my vent-system, you can see round plenum silencers (lined with 10cm glasswool around). You see the mufflers going to the controlroom. The outlets inside the room are also going to be a special plenum to slow down the airflow.
Wow, great photos! Looks like some great workmanship!
Any chance you get a similar system to the unit you have an eye on you could place in another room and run ducts to the studio like in my system?
Yeah, I thought about that. The only adjacent rooms I have are the laundry room (not a candidate because that's considered a "wet spot" in the house, with an exhaust fan -- to condition the air in that room and suck it into the studio would be to "exhaust" the laundry room air into living space, which would not meet code I'm sure), or my office. I suppose I could do something like that in my office, but it seems like a lot of hassle just to have a silent unit. Since the room isn't for recording purposes, I can live with the noise.
Thanks, Florian! :D
Others, keep it comin'! :mrgreen:
Note that my questions about beefing up my exterior wall outer leaf are still open, and I'd appreciate feedback on that as well. 8)
Note that my questions about beefing up my exterior wall outer leaf are still open, and I'd appreciate feedback on that as well.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what wonderboard is! I know how to build houses in my area of the big ball but I'm not well informed about the codes and criterion critical in the US.
Good luck
Florian
Wonderboard is a concrete and stryofoam balls mixture that is reinforced with a cloth mesh and made into a sheet like drywall but used as another substitute for greenboard (water resistant drywall) I have installed it in a few bathrooms behind replacement shower stalls
