You are the only amatuer i have put so much confidence in EVER!! Id love to say your smart or wise, that remains to be seen (as you well know).You too Dan...I thought i didnt know when to give up, now I know I tend to give up much earlier than you. Im still watchin'
FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 2921.
Did you say....FULL WOODLOCK?? LIke in 5 layer outer shell, and 7 layer inner shell with a full dig out the floor and pour a new slab with and a FLOATING CONCRETE SLAB WOODLOCK?????? :shock: :shock: :shock: Kieth, I hate to be the one to tell you, but you're obviously suffering from a serious case of brain dehydration......also known as Woodlocks Syndrome, caused by months of intense data and calculation overload, BID and Sound Emission code stress and design concept flip flop, which manifests itself as sensitivity to lack of immediete forum response to fleets of fantasy, plain ole Forum input anxiousness, and bouts of severe ambiguous decision making.
Before deciding this, I suggest you take a few days, rent a cabin at Dillons beach, and rest your brain:lol: .(just kidding with you Kieth, but seriously, hope you know what your getting into here...
:shock: Regardless, good luck with the decision. At least you will KNOW what to expect this way.
fitZ
Shar, If you've decided that this is the direction you need to go - at least now you understand exactly what it is you're getting into (as opposed to the thought that this could be as simple as an elevated wooden deck) - and should just proceed. You've gotten enough data to make an intelligent descision - you shouldn't need any one else to prod you........... So just go for it......... 8) 8) 8) Sincerely, RodBump... :roll: Still hoping for some feedback on the "Woodlockesque Proposal" -- SEE IT HERE (back just a bit). The weekend's coming and I want to really dig into my plans. Thanks folks!! :mrgreen:
Thanks guys. I guess I was lookin' for a "Naw, you're nuts -- you don't need to go through all that" type of response... Or at least allowing for the opportunity for that to happen.
Instead, I get, basically, "Well, good luck -- you're gonna' need it!" :? ;)
Anyway... Brain vacation notwithstanding, I'm starting to really "get used to" this approach, though I have yet to commit to it completely.
I have been studying Paul's floating floor construction photos. Honestly, it reminds me of a time when I saw a video of a surgical procedure that I was planning to have done: shock, awe, concern, assurance -- in that order mostly. It's easier to make a decision when you know what's involved in that commitment. I'm getting a clearer sense of what's involved right now.
Questions that I (still) have about the proposed dig-out:
- The footer on my exterior wall and the strutural "house not garage" slab holding up my office/bedroom and laundry room walls meet my existing garage floor with a thin piece of wood -- the garage floor is not a monolithic slab (here's where I use these big words to pretend I know what the f&%* I'm talking about). Is it safe to just jackhammer the existing floor close to the edges? Or could the jackhammering damage these :shock: very critical :shock: structural features?
How deep do you think the footer and "house not garage" slab go? If less than about two feet, what happens when I dig past the bottoms of these structural features? Am I compromising their integrity by digging down adjacent to them? If my new "sub slab" is lower than the bottoms of those features, would I have to make a concrete "wall," kind of like a small swimming pool? If so, would that "wall" start at or under those features? If "under," that means I'd have to scape out earth beneath those weight-bearing features, which my gut tells me is a very bad idea -- but not doing that would cause me to lose precious square footage around the perimeter of my finished room. Maybe instead of a wall, I could get away with a thick plastic sheet -- the same sheet that would go beneath the new subfloor slab to keep moisture out. Then, instead of a "pool," it's more like those "pond kits" that are so popular nowadays in my part of the world.
I suppose I should contact the company that did the concrete work for my house
Man, I love cut and paste (BTW, I'm abusing your musing 'cause that's what you should be using...)
Or, to put it another way, WHAT??!? you mean you still haven't DONE that??!? :wink:
Hey Kieth, sorry if my response was less than encourageing. My reply was NOT ment in that way. Your "bump" prompted me to inject an attemp at humor. Since so much has come to light regarding the reality of various solutions you have gone through, I personally have become very gunshy to suggest things one way or another anymore. Which is why I hadn't brought up the subject of water collecting in a lowered slab solution. I think you have come to understand the pros and cons of all this stuff.......except for what you are now thinking...which is what I thought a long time ago, due to my experience with not only a cracked slab, but moisture COLLECTING in small pools UNDER my floated floor. Of course, this was an old outbuilding "garage" and the slab was level with grade. During the first extreme rain storm, I actually had to trench around the exterior perimeter of the footing, to drain the water off to a lower grade about 20' away from the building. Even then, I guess because of the cracking, water weeped to the interior, as the trenches filled with water faster than it would run off during extreme rain. It was only when I demo'ed the studio that I found the cracks and water :shock: :shock: It already smelled of mildew prior to demo'ing it. In that light, I THINK you might have a valid concern here. Although I'm hesitant to stick my neck out anymore, I am of the opinion, seeing as you have a clay bed, and knowing Sacramento weather sometimes, that this is quite possible. Perhaps as you say, maybe use a thick visquine layer like a pool liner completely sealing out moisture, although I haven't got a clue what BID will have to say to this as its a decoupled slab with another FLOATED slab above, its quite un-orthodox RESIDENTIAL construction. At least to me. It would SEEM as though they would require some kind of connection of the new support slab to the existing footing, although I don't know how that could be done. Maybe it's a moot point though. Anyway, just wanted to throw my .02 concern into the circus ring and apologize if my humor wasn't what you needed at the moment. I think given the enormity of this decision, most people familiar with this thread have also grown gunshy, as the last reply from mikeklooster kind of illustrates. No doubt this decision weighs heavy, as this is a very expensive undertaking, which I think has been the main concern all along. Perhaps, a thorough analysis of the costs involved as well as a talk with BID will support a correct decision. If you DO choose to do this, I wish you all the luck, and EAGERLY look forward to YOUR DIARY, as Eric NEEDS another to fill Pauls diary ENTERTAINMENT vacancy when done :lol: :wink: fitZ PS. I'm STILL wondering though, since Paul has a brick exterior, and had to HANG 5 LAYERS OF DRYWALL from the existing roof support to match the TL of the garage exterior, WHAT ABOUT THAT?? :? This is exactly why I asked about how these exterior shells relate to the INTERIOR shell as far as TL is concerned. Paul had the equivelent of TWELVE layers total. This is why I'm wondering how your project would actually match what Paul achieved, considering your existing shell. Just curious.Instead, I get, basically, "Well, good luck -- you're gonna' need it!"
Yes and no... I did contact them to get information about my existing garage slab -- thickness, mix, reinforcements. What I did not ask them about (because it wasn't relevant to me at the time) was how deep all the "non garage slab" stuff goes.WHAT??!? you mean you still haven't DONE that??!? :wink:
Hey Fitz -- first of all, my "thanks guys" was not sarcasm -- I always appreciate the input, including (and sometimes especially) the humorous stuff. :) "Perspective." :). . . sorry if my response was less than encourageing. My reply was NOT ment in that way. Your "bump" prompted me to inject an attemp at humor.
Yes, I totally understand. My order is a tall one, not only in terms of TL requirements, but also satisfying the bureaucrats, and it's understandable that you guys would be hesitant to recommend or fully endorse anything anymore. :lol:. . . I personally have become very gunshy to suggest things . . .
Yup.. . . my experience with not only a cracked slab, but moisture COLLECTING in small pools UNDER my floated floor. . . I THINK you might have a valid concern here. . . seeing as you have a clay bed, and knowing Sacramento weather sometimes . . .
Good idea, fitZ. Maybe I just need to draw up a few different scenarios (submerged float, elevated float, flush isolated) and get their input on each one -- not in terms of expense or difficulty, but in terms of getting their sign-off. It may be that all of this is moot, regardless of expense or difficulty. I just want to limit my exposure to the bureaucrats because (1) I don't want to be perceived as a pesky pain-in-the-ass (or, as Paul would put it, pain-in-the-arse ;) ) and, as such, I may be less likely to be treated well if/when the going gets tough, and (2) the doorway seems taller when I leave compared to when I arrived... An optical illusion? ;). . . maybe use a thick visquine layer like a pool liner completely sealing out moisture, although I haven't got a clue what BID will have to say to this as its a decoupled slab with another FLOATED slab above, its quite un-orthodox RESIDENTIAL construction. At least to me. It would SEEM as though they would require some kind of connection of the new support slab to the existing footing, although I don't know how that could be done. . . Perhaps, a thorough analysis of the costs involved as well as a talk with BID will support a correct decision.
I am totally up for that challenge -- although I'm considering doing an actual "blog" rather than posting every little detail on the forum(s).If you DO choose to do this, I wish you all the luck, and EAGERLY look forward to YOUR DIARY, as Eric NEEDS another to fill Pauls diary ENTERTAINMENT vacancy when done :lol: :wink:
Good question, fitZ, and one that I have been contemplating as well. First of all, I believe Paul's panels are thinner (1/2" vs. 5/8"), so mine will be kind of like "install four, get one free." (Even if it's cheaper with 1/2" boards, it's 25% more work, and 25% more inspections required -- yes, each layer will need to be inspected and signed off.) Anyway, I'm looking at up to 5 layers of 5/8" gypsum wallboard (or equivalent) on each leaf. 3/4" OSB is about the same weight, and I may substitute that for one or two of the layers -- possibly the first and most likely the second to last). I definitely want my walls and ceiling to "keep up with" the floor, or at least not be the weak point in the system.I'm STILL wondering though, since Paul has a brick exterior, and had to HANG 5 LAYERS OF DRYWALL from the existing roof support to match the TL of the garage exterior, WHAT ABOUT THAT?? :? This is exactly why I asked about how these exterior shells relate to the INTERIOR shell as far as TL is concerned. Paul had the equivelent of TWELVE layers total. This is why I'm wondering how your project would actually match what Paul achieved, considering your existing shell. Just curious.
Thanks, Rod. I appreciate this. You're on my short list of folk whom I feel compelled to give access to the big red button on my project! :mrgreen:. . . you shouldn't need any one else to prod you........... So just go for it......... 8) 8) 8)
Hello Kieth Wow! So you are going "Woodlock" all the way! Say, what do you have to do to the existing roof support(trusses?) to support this kind of weight for the .....HEY,, I guess you are going to have 3 leaf ceiling as well huh...no matter. Is this roof support framing up to hangin 5 layers on it or will you have to modify it as well? fitZI'm looking at up to 5 layers of 5/8" gypsum wallboard (or equivalent) on each leaf. 3/4" OSB is about the same weight,
wow its a hornets nest in here. This looks like a ton of work man. Good luck
Great question, and one that I haven't had time or context to post the answer to yet. I was going to get the floor situation squared away before detailing that for everyone. Basically, I plan to rip off all the existing ceiling, remove the hat channel, and then lay new 2x6 joists 16" o.c., parallel to the existing trusses, which would move all of the ceiling weight off of the trusses and transfer it to the outer leaf walls. I ran the calc's and it seems OK for my 10' + headers span. Here's a terrible illustration of this. (I suck at Photoshop.)what do you have to do to the existing roof support(trusses?) to support this kind of weight . . .
External image, not preserved — original: http://home.surewest.net/sharward/studio/overgarageeast1withjoists-small.jpg
You must have mistaken the buzzing sound for hornets, Ballgame -- that's my brain frying! :twisted:wow its a hornets nest in here.
Actually, according to my abacus, it's probably more like 35 tons! :shock:This looks like a ton of work man.
Yeah, I'm going to need it! Of course, this isn't etched in stone yet... I'm just trying to wrap my head around the possibility of doing this. Scary indeed! :shock:Good luck
Shar, That looked weird to me - so I went to look into it - According to the Western Lumber Product Use Manual- which is published by the Western Woods Product Association (WWPA) - the value for Fb with DF-Larch #2 is not 1345.5psi but is rather 900psi If you wish to see this for yourself - you can at http://www.wwpa.org/_techguide/pdf/A.pdf But you will have to register first. I would also point out that I get nervous about the minimum bearing they note in the table. I']ll take a look at this again tomorrow - but 2x6 @ 16" oc for a 10' span with that load makes me tense........ just a gut feeling - but i always follow my gut....... Sincerely, RodI ran the calc's, and it seems OK for my 10' + headers span.
:shock: Wow! :shock: You're right! There it is, at the top of page 6! (Right?)According to the Western Lumber Product Use Manual- which is published by the Western Woods Product Association (WWPA) - the value for Fb with DF-Larch #2 is not 1345.5psi but is rather 900psi If you wish to see this for yourself - you can at http://www.wwpa.org/_techguide/pdf/A.pdf
Nope... It let me right in. (I just acted natural and didn't make eye contact with the guard. ;) )But you will have to register first.
Sheesh -- I thought I had found the coolest little span calculator, and now you're shooting holes all over it! :cry: What the heck? "with a minimum bearing length of 0.32 in. required at each end of the member"? 0.32 inches? Are they nuts? :x My index finger isn't even that thick! :shock: Rod, do you know of any other span calculators on the 'Net for us construction idiots -- hopefully ones we can rely on? :roll: I tried to learn how to use the span tables, but I'm afraid I just don't "get it."I would also point out that I get nervous about the minimum bearing they note in the table.
FYI, I have no objection to upping the ante to 2x8, as long as I have the clearance where the roof sheathing gets really close to the top plates on the east wall (direction of photo). I have not measured this yet -- my attic photos were taken from the hatch in the laundry room with just my head and shoulders inside. I admit it: I'm "atticphobic." :roll: Changing my spacing to 12" o.c. is also an option. I should also confess that I'm assuming that "Douglas Fir - Larch" is what I have available in my region. I suppose a field trip to Home Depot is in order. Thank you so much, Rod. :cool: I'm so appreciative that you've "got my back" on this.I'll take a look at this again tomorrow - but 2x6 @ 16" oc for a 10' span with that load makes me tense........ just a gut feeling - but i always follow my gut.......
Another day, another life saved by Rod :D
Dammit, i was just at home depot getting prices. And i checked the tag, and it only said Doug Fir. Now i know what stamp to look for to see if it is Larch ... it makes a big difference, like a foot of span or something. That is a great PDF Rod, i'm so glad you put that link there.
BUT ... checking the span tables (40# total load) in that PDF, Doug Fir larch #2 at 16 OC says 10'9", not that far off from what the "internet calculator" predicted. which is comforting. although it's a heck of a lot MORE comforting to have span tables put out by a trusted source :)
by the way, 2x6x10 are $5.40, and 2x8x10 are $7.27 at my home depot. in case that helps (not that you'd cut costs here, mind you :o ) ... there is no reason NOT to overkill here where life is at stake of course, especially for a few dollars. i just put that for the curious.
i might also add that 2x10x10s are $9.98 and 2x12x10s are $11.85 ... just in case you want to be REALLY safe!
[EDITED TO ADD DOLLAR SIGNS ... :oops: ]
it should be ok to taper the tops of the joists at the end where they have to fit into the narrow space between the wall top plate and the roof sheathing, i'm guessing. you'd have to do this with either 2x6 OR 2x8. will this affect the strength of the member very much or at all?
roughly, i think 2x6 wood is 2 lbs/foot and each sq foot of 5/8 gypsum is about 2.3 lbs, so even if you did 5 layers of gyp aren't we talking under 15 psf or so, so isn't 40 pounds load capacity plenty ... that leaves 25 psf live load ... which should be enough for a ceiling below an attic space right?
or am i thinking about this all wrong, totally misunderstanding how this works?
i guess i need to read that pdf, which i will, but in case others do not read it it would be good to point out if i am way off base here. i'd like us all to avoid premature death if at all possible. :roll:
Dan
I was aware of that - the 2x ? is the size of the member in the rough (Nominal Size) - after dressing it's generally 1.5 x ?.5 (rule of thumb - have seen as low as ?.25 and as high as ?.3/4 They (also) were aware of that - it's part of the reason for their insisting that engineers use that particular publication for design purposes. It takes into account Size Adjusted Design Values. Still looking into things - busy as a one armed paper hanger here right now - we are trying to close this project out in the next 5 weeks - it's always a killer schedule at this point on any project. Rodby the way, 2x6x10 are 5.40, and 2x8x10 are 7.27 at my home depot. in case that helps (not that you'd cut costs here, mind you :o ) ... there is no reason NOT to overkill here where life is at stake of course, especially for a few dollars. i just put that for the curious. i might also add that 2x10x10s are 9.98 and 2x12x10s are 11.85 ... just in case you want to be REALLY safe!
From http://www.rugglumber.com/contractors/c ... size.shtml:
(Edited to exclude image of lumber size chart comparing nominal to actual, since it ends up that isn't what Dan was talking about! You can still follow the link above if you want to see it.)
Well you sure are doing your homework. But let me play devils advocate…is it worth it? Looks like you have a ton of work ahead of you and are going have to redo part of the house all for a space to play. My wife would kill me if I were doing this haha.You must have mistaken the buzzing sound for hornets, Ballgame -- that's my brain frying! :twisted:wow its a hornets nest in here.Actually, according to my abacus, it's probably more like 35 tons! :shock:This looks like a ton of work man.Yeah, I'm going to need it! Of course, this isn't etched in stone yet... I'm just trying to wrap my head around the possibility of doing this. Scary indeed! :shock:Good luck
Making a 20 year dream come true? Yes.But let me play devils advocate…is it worth it?
I'm very fortunate to have a very supportive wife. :) I'll bet if you had a 20 year dream, your wife would support you too. :mrgreen:Looks like you have a ton of work ahead of you and are going have to redo part of the house all for a space to play. My wife would kill me if I were doing this haha.
um ... huh? those were supposed to be PRICES at home depot :lol: sorry, i did not put in the $ sign. yes i WOULD think you were aware of the dimension thing, Rod ... :lol: sorry to be unclear danI was aware of that - the 2x ? is the size of the member in the rough (Nominal Size) - after dressing it's generally 1.5 x ?.5 (rule of thumb - have seen as low as ?.25 and as high as ?.3/4
Thought that was what you were quoting, but wasn't sure - kind of a "co-inky-dink" on how close prices run to sizes :roll:
shit if my wife can put up with me for 20 years SHE can do whatever she wants :D So whats the next step for you here? Since my basement floods here is my studioMaking a 20 year dream come true? Yes.But let me play devils advocate…is it worth it?I'm very fortunate to have a very supportive wife. :) I'll bet if you had a 20 year dream, your wife would support you too. :mrgreen:Looks like you have a ton of work ahead of you and are going have to redo part of the house all for a space to play. My wife would kill me if I were doing this haha.
External image, not preserved — original: http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/Ballgame/Guitars%20005.jpg
yeah steve that is an odd coincidence. but i still have to wonder what type of measuring device y'all pictured me using at home depot that measured 2x12 lumber to the hundredth of an inch :D ... maybe i brought my extra large dial caliper :lol: :lol: :lol: i mean i AM a geek but REALLY :PThought that was what you were quoting, but wasn't sure - kind of a "co-inky-dink" on how close prices run to sizes :roll:
Nearly a year ago (July 2004), before we even moved into this house, I exchanged e-mail with Keith Yates, a world renowned home theater designer who just happens to call the Sacramento area his home. My first reply from him included a recommendation for Acoustics & Vibrations Group here in Sacramento. They don't have a Web site yet, but here's the founder's bio:
- Steve Pettyjohn is a registered Professional Engineer in Acoustics in Oregon. He receiveda Bachelor of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering from OSU and a Master of Science degree in an acoustics multi-disciplinary program in 1979 of the School of Mechanical Engineering from the Georgia Institute of Technology. The Vibration Institute certified him in 1994 as Vibration Specialist II.
After completing twelve years of acoustic andvibration research for Cummins Engine Company and acoustic and vibration consulting for firms in Georgia, he formed The Acoustics & Vibration Group (TAVG) in Sacramento in 1986.
He is a member of The Vibration Institute, The Acoustical Society of America (ASA), Institute of Noise Control Engineers (INCE), American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME), and American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE).