FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

Keith, Probably after reading all those links Florian provided, you know more about this than I do. But I'm quite surprised to see such long duct lengths in your plan. The lenght seems unnecessary and means you'll have to have a bigger louder fan to make it work. The other thing I'm not sure this design considers is how much sound comes through the wall of the duct, as opposed to the open end of the duct. The place where the duct leaves your studio, which is close to the neighbors (and the vent in your wall) is going to leak sound simply through the duct wall. it also doesn't seem like a good idea to route this duct along your critical neighbor side wall. where the duct penetrates you have traded your massive leaves for thin sheet metal, it isn't going to perform as well obviously. what paul woodlock did with his silencer system was to try and replace his two leaves, which he couldn't have because he needed the air, to replace them with what he hoped were equivalent massive silencers. it is a two-silencer system which is analogous to the two-leaf system. in fact his silencers have walls that are the same thickness (7 layers) as his walls. one for his inner penetration and one for hte outer penetration. here are a couple of diagrams i made to show what i'm thinking. this is MY interpretation of information i've gleaned from Paul's project and others. Just because there's a diagram doesn't mean it works :lol: caveat emptor and all that. but at least it will clarify what i'm talking about. a couple of notes. from what i've inferred i think three things are critical with the silencer. 1) make it as long as possible. 2) make the rockwool as deep as possible. 3) make the surface area of the rockwool in contact with the air as much as possible. 4) did i say make it BIG??? :) according to eric desart having all the rockwool to one side of the air channel is preferable, to maximize depth of rockwool exposed to the sound. dreamer's go all the way around which is fine too, but not essential. again these are my interpretations of what has been said. dan

Phew! Thansk Dan :) I just started catching up on this thread at page 18, and on turning to page 20 I was just about tio offer the solution that I did after consulation with Eric D. Your diagrams are great. saved me a lot of typing. The dimensions of my splitter silencers are as follows. Rockwool = 1500mm x 1000mm x 400mm The airgap at the side of the rockwool is cross section 1000mm x 45mm And as Dan rightly says the boxes should be of the same TL rating as the walls. You need 4 per room. 1 either side of each hole. THEY ARE BIG!!! I only have a flexible duct between the walls ( well ceilings actually ) for the air inlet. The air outlet also makes use of the void between the inner and outer room, as this allows the void to be ventilated as well. :) Paul

Wow! Thanks so much to Florian for his comments (and relevant contributions to other threads over the last couple of days!), to Dan for the awesome insights and beautiful drawings, to Steve for his advice and duct recommendations, and to Mr. Woodlock Himself -- a great treat, especially considering the fact that I hadn't even begged him to drop by this time! ;-) My cup runneth over! 8) groovemeister has been looking at the Fantech VHR 1404, which is very similar to Florian's Helios KWL 350. What great timing for me that these systems would be discussed on another thread at precisely the time I need the information! :D I also greatly apprecaite the advice about the big beefy silencers. Although I don't think I'm quite up to speed yet on how exactly to construct them, I get the fact that they need to be large (point taken, Dan and Paul!). So, four big beefy silencers, coming right up! ;) Here's a preliminary rough plan. Note that I'm still proposing a fairly long run for the fresh air, not so much because I want to, but because I think that's the best location to suck air from. That part of the outside is always shaded -- a northern-facing porch outside my wife's study, near the front door to the house. You can see part of the porch on the right side of this photo. The silencers themselves are about 7.5 feet long, and the height/width or width/height dimensions are 18" x 24". The silencers in the studio room are 18" high and 24" deep (like a soffit), whereas the silencers outside the studio room are 24" high and 18" deep -- this is to accommodate the fact that the headroom inside the studio room will be shorter, vs. the 10' ceilings in the laundry room and garage. The heat recovery ventilation system is in the garage just outside the laundry room. The duct connecting the laundry room silencer to the ventilation box is probably inside the laundry room to keep it cool (as opposed to going up inside the attic). The exhaust air duct would go into the attic and either follow a duct towards the back of the house and penetrate the back wall, or be expelled into the attic space if code allows for that (something I would need to research). Is this kind of what you guys were thinking would work? (By the way, Dan, I've given up on using a window air conditioner. I really like the mini split system for a lot of reasons, even though they're very expensive.) BTW, at this point I'm envisioning the mini split interior unit being on the rear wall below the silencer -- although that may change. Heck, everything may change! :? Thanks again for all the great feedback, and by all means, keep it coming! :mrgreen:

Now you have to name your band “Silencer”

sharward wrote:

Wow! Thanks so much to Florian for his comments (and relevant contributions to other threads over the last couple of days!), to Dan for the awesome insights and beautiful drawings, to Steve for his advice and duct recommendations, and to Mr. Woodlock Himself -- a great treat, especially considering the fact that I hadn't even begged him to drop by this time! ;-) My cup runneth over! 8)

ROFL! - hehe This is a great forum, the only reason I don't come by as often as I would like is simply time and already enough forums take that up. i'll try better in future, specially now I'm close to finishing my mammoth build.

groovemeister has been looking at the Fantech VHR 1404, which is very similar to Florian's Helios KWL 350. What great timing for me that these systems would be discussed on another thread at precisely the time I need the information! :D I also greatly apprecaite the advice about the big beefy silencers. Although I don't think I'm quite up to speed yet on how exactly to construct them, I get the fact that they need to be large (point taken, Dan and Paul!). So, four big beefy silencers, coming right up! ;) Here's a preliminary rough plan. Note that I'm still proposing a fairly long run for the fresh air, not so much because I want to, but because I think that's the best location to suck air from. That part of the outside is always shaded -- a northern-facing porch outside my wife's study, near the front door to the house. You can see part of the porch on the right side of this photo. The silencers themselves are about 7.5 feet long, and the height/width or width/height dimensions are 18" x 24". The silencers in the studio room are 18" high and 24" deep (like a soffit), whereas the silencers outside the studio room are 24" high and 18" deep -- this is to accommodate the fact that the headroom inside the studio room will be shorter, vs. the 10' ceilings in the laundry room and garage. The heat recovery ventilation system is in the garage just outside the laundry room. The duct connecting the laundry room silencer to the ventilation box is probably inside the laundry room to keep it cool (as opposed to going up inside the attic). The exhaust air duct would go into the attic and either follow a duct towards the back of the house and penetrate the back wall, or be expelled into the attic space if code allows for that (something I would need to research). Is this kind of what you guys were thinking would work? (By the way, Dan, I've given up on using a window air conditioner. I really like the mini split system for a lot of reasons, even though they're very expensive.) BTW, at this point I'm envisioning the mini split interior unit being on the rear wall below the silencer -- although that may change. Heck, everything may change! :? Thanks again for all the great feedback, and by all means, keep it coming! :mrgreen:

You dont silencers any bigger than the one's I built. Btw - get yourself a well powerful fan. The fan I use will blow your hair off if you hold it in front of your face. Yet the air from teh ducts in the studio just gently drifts in silently. You can also silence the fan easily enough. btw - I Use a similar size fan for my computer silencing cabinet. It's loud as fück in free air, but it's inaudible after I mounted it in a mini- room within a room box :) btw - these large silencers are a great excsue to build yourself a soffit wall for your speakers. I hid one of the internal silencers behind it. :) Paul

Paul Woodlock wrote:

. . . This is a great forum, the only reason I don't come by as often as I would like is simply time and already enough forums take that up. i'll try better in future, specially now I'm close to finishing my mammoth build.

Cool! 8) You're somewhat of a rockstar around here, Paul! 8)

You dont silencers any bigger than the one's I built.

Assuming that's missing the word "have" (as in, "You don't have silencers any bigger. . .").

Btw - get yourself a well powerful fan.

How powerful (in terms of CFM if possible)? The ventilation system I'm considering is sufficient for an entire house. Of course the fact that I'm making up for the loss of a window means it has to be strong to meet code. I need to do some more math and upsize or downsize accordingly.

The fan I use will blow your hair off if you hold it in front of your face. Yet the air from teh ducts in the studio just gently drifts in silently. You can also silence the fan easily enough.

In my case, I don't much care about how loud the fans are. Obviously, quieter is better -- but I'd rather have more circulation than less noise. Remember, this isn't a room for recording -- it's a room for playing and being loud an obnoxious. ;)

btw - these large silencers are a great excsue to build yourself a soffit wall for your speakers. I hid one of the internal silencers behind it. :)

I don't even have speakers at this point. There'll be a P.A. at some point, I'm sure, but I figure it would be portable for gigging. Paul, I'm taking your commentary on my silencers means that they are of sufficient overall size -- correct? Obviously the detail of their construction will be key, and that's something I can take on a bit later. At this point I'm focused on just making sure the fundamentals of the construction are down so that I can get my freakin' permit already! :mrgreen: By the way, I made a small adjustment to the fresh air duct run. Rather than it hugging the wall and making 90-degree turns, I decided to straighten the run and soften the bends, taking more of a "shortest distance between two points" approach. After all, the silencers are doing the job of attenuation -- not the ducts (anymore)... Right? :roll:

Ballgame wrote:

Now you have to name your band “Silencer”

I'm afraid we're too late for that name! ;-)

i like these ideas keith. I have one question, though? Is this ventalation system quiter than an air handler. Since I have 3 rooms, and duct space, a more normal HVAC seems logical to me. I am worried about sound. If I vent my garage like you and use a multi zone split, would it be quiter, more efficient, cheaper or anything? I also read through Florians links and this one in particular http://www.chps.net/manual/documents/20 ... s/HVAC.pdf they describe two other HVAC methods that sound like possible options to me. 1.Hydronic Ceiling Panel System and 2.Evaporative Cooling System both have some interesting characterristics, what do yall think? thanx again mike

Hey Mikey -- I decided to answer your question on your thread rather than here, since it's more about your project than mine. 8)

hi keith, i'm glad you straightened out your ducts a bit. but i'm still a bit disturbed by how long your duct runs are. i think you might look into going out the roof, to save distance. but i don't know for sure. we'll both have to figure out how to calculate static pressure i guess :P otherwise i think the plan makes sense. dan p.s. it sure was great to have both steve and paul w. saying i wasn't talking out my ass! both in one week too!! :D :D :D

Behold -- Yet Another Plan for the ventilation...

Fresh air duct moved into attic (decided I could do the run straighter this way and I wouldn't have to mess with fire dampers -- ducts that penetrate firewalls must have fire dampers. Now I'm no longer penetrating firewalls. Moved ventilation heat exchanger fan box into laundry room. Verified there is room for this overhead (thank goodness for 10 foot ceilings). Attic would not be good because servicing needs to be easy and manufacturer advises against attic location for the equipment. I can also run the condensate hose right ino the washing machine drain! Woo-hoo!

I also put together my framing detail. I had to start from scratch because everything changed so much.

All lumber is 2x6 (1.5" x 5.5" nominal), except for a few 2x4s here and there in the corners as a wallboard mounting surface. Notice the joist-to-top-plate fasteners -- I'm planning to use the same ones that scalpshifter used -- see this post for photos.

Please comment, especially if you have framing experience (Doni!). I'm really trying to put together a package for the city today. That may be too tall of an order for me to fill, but I'm really trying!! :roll:

Here's the anatomy of everything... Pretty groovy lookin' if you don't mind my saying! :mrgreen:

And now the electrical layout. It's almost identical to what I posted a couple of months back, except that I added emergency lighting and mini split interior unit power source. The framing changed a lot too, so I had to move all the boxes.

Ok I'm going to show my electrical ignorance, what the hell is a 20amp wall sconce? VERY 8) DRAWINGS Do you have one with all your measurements. I would love to build this one on my 3d architecture program

Let me quess. The cats inbetween the studs are required by code? Is either wall ( W/ Doors) Load bearing? if they are Kieth you need to add a header above both doors. Mainly the inner leaf due to what I think I'm seeing I'm assuming that the exterior wall isn't load bearing, but the inside wall of the actual room is due to the fact its holding up the ceiling, So I would take out the cripple studs and put up a header and cripples above the header Other than that Kieth the framing detail looks spot on Q

DreaminDrumBeats wrote:

Let me quess. The cats inbetween the studs are required by code?

I'm not sure if code requires them or not. I'm putting them in to make the walls more rigid so that they're less likely to "tweak" when putting them up before I get the OSB on them. (In case you didn't see, my fist layer of "skin" will be OSB.) I can't risk the walls tipping because I'm not using any sway braces.

Is either wall ( W/ Doors) Load bearing? if they are Kieth you need to add a header above both doors. Mainly the inner leaf due to what I think I'm seeing I'm assuming that the exterior wall isn't load bearing, but the inside wall of the actual room is due to the fact its holding up the ceiling, So I would take out the cripple studs and put up a header and cripples above the header

I don't know if they'd be considered load bearing or not. Yes, the inner leaf walls will be holding up the ceiling, but that's mostly true of the long walls on the sides -- that's the orientation of the ceiling joists (left to right). There may be a 2x6 laying across the top plate to fasten the ceiling to for stability, but I don't think much actual weight will be transferred to the inner door wall. Is that legit? Or should I make a header anyway? Nice catch, Doni -- lets me know you were really payin' attention! 8) And I'm delighted to have your "spot on Q" endorsement! :mrgreen:

"Ok I'm going to show my electrical ignorance, what the hell is a 20amp wall sconce? " One of these, perhaps? http://images.google.com/images?q=sconce&hl=en

kendale wrote:

One of these, perhaps?

Yes, but less "ornate." A sconce is just a type of wall fixture. In case you're wondering why I ned 20 amps for them, I really don't -- 15 would have been fine. However, that circuit is shared with some outlets that I need to be on a 20 amp line. I wasn't going to post these, but I might as well now! :mrgreen:

a little detail-oriented are we? :P awesome, keith. you are truly an example to us all. if those building permit people give you any trouble i really don't know how anybody builds anything. thanks for making me feel planning-deficient :)

Steve, Keith, Dan, Mike... Not sure, but maybe this tool can be useful for you: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4240 If you got any better let me know too! Florian

I'm not sure if code requires them or not. I'm putting them in to make the walls more rigid so that they're less likely to "tweak" when putting them up before I get the OSB on them. (In case you didn't see, my fist layer of "skin" will be OSB.) I can't risk the walls tipping because I'm not using any sway braces.

Here in PA we build the walls on the ground and then tip them up into place and dont use cats inbetween the studs so you don't need to worry about the walls tweaking when standing them up. the only reason I asked about the cats was because I was thinkin about flanking due to the extra screws in the studs but I'm no expert on such things Another building tip for you Kieth after standing walls up (all of them and nailing all laps together connecting all corners) youll need 2 helpers for this. you hold the level, one to stand up on a latter and TEMPORARILY nail a wood block on to top plate to one of you exterior walls studs, and one to move the wall to plumb it. Once this is done on all four walls then you can put your osb up. Once you have all walls Sheathed (dont do the ceiling yet) climb up and detach the temp blocks that are holding your walls plumb (wala no cats inbetween studs needed (money saved for other stuff)

I don't know if they'd be considered load bearing or not. Yes, the inner leaf walls will be holding up the ceiling, but that's mostly true of the long walls on the sides -- that's the orientation of the ceiling joists (left to right). There may be a 2x6 laying across the top plate to fasten the ceiling to for stability, but I don't think much actual weight will be transferred to the inner door wall. Is that legit? Or should I make a header anyway?

Doesnt matter if the door isnt on the wall that has the ceiling joist ends on it, its still considered load bearing because its a room by itself so put up a header.

Nice catch, Doni -- lets me know you were really payin' attention! 8) And I'm delighted to have your "spot on Q" endorsement! :mrgreen:

Just Doing what was asked of me Kieth.

Thanks, Doni. According to American Wood Council's Details for Conventional Wood Frame Construction (figure 43), all I need are two 2x6s for a load bearing doorway header. So I revised my illustrations accordingly. I also got rid of the "cats" (never heard that term!). (Better be careful how I say that -- we have six cats here and my wife would certainly hurt me severely if I were to utter the words "get rid of the cats" in hear earshot! ;) ) Worst case, if the building department wants me to add them for some reason, it shouldn't be too difficult to do so after the wall frames are already in place. Please let me know if this isn't correct or if you have any other tips! 8)

Dan The Man wrote:

awesome, keith. you are truly an example to us all.

Thanks, Dan. Honestly, though, it's just a ploy to delay the planning process because I'm so afraid of actually doing real work! ;-)

if those building permit people give you any trouble i really don't know how anybody builds anything.

Thanks for that. I need confidence -- I'm facing the BRAs this week!! :shock:

thanks for making me feel planning-deficient

Now, now -- that wasn't my intention... Just a wonderful accidental byproduct. :lol: --Keith 8)

How heavy of a door are you using? Just thinkin if your going HEAVY just add another King Stud to the hinge side of the of the RO to be able to support the weight of the HEAVY door. And Looky there I even saved you a few bucks :D I just thought of this on the way I told you how to temp brace your walls I was half alseep this mornin when I wrote that post So I missed a step or two. You need to put temp X bracing on the inside using long 2x4's (be sure they are long enough to reach from just under the top of the top plate all the way down to the sole plate diagonally) in order to be able to plum the wall up. Once the walls are plumbed up then do the temp wood blocks ( 1 at each end of the walls that you can nail into exterior wall studs) on the top plate and into the exterior wall studs. Then you can take x bracing off the inside of the walls and begin your sheathing duties The only wall that you can't do this way is the inner leaf door wall being you won't have an exterior wall to nail into so put your x bracing on the outside (the side that's considered your air gap) and just leave it there till you have your sheathing up on the inside of the wall.

This is it! I'm going to the sacred permit center tomorrow morning, armed with a fancy packet of plans and documentation! :shock: Wish me luck!!! 8) Hopefully I'll be able to report back tomorrow with news that I got my permit, or maybe news of a few minor tweaks I need to make. Man, I feel like I'm going on "the ultimate job interview" tomorrow! :roll: --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: Thanks mucho for the framing tips, Doni! I'm nowhere close to framing yet -- when I get there, though, you can bet your favorite cordless drill that I'll be bugging you non-stop! ;)

Well I don't have a permit yet. However, I'm closer than ever! Planning has approved my project, since it does not involve any exterior modifications (except maybe ventilation inlet and outlet). I'm also not sacrificing my entire garage, so I still have "on site parking." I sat down with a building plan tech for over an hour. He was totally impressed with my drawings and technical knowledge -- to much of what I was saying, he responded, "I was just about to tell you that! You've really done your homework!" :) I think it was cool that he also did a fair bit of home recording in years past and wants to get into it again. 8) He took my 10-page packet to their senior inspector (the same guy I dealt with months ago who "poo-pood" my floating floor plan and gave me the much-needed education in ventilation requirements, etc.). He came out of his office and balked at the whole "isolated slab" thing. :roll: His "objections" were that he didn't think it was necessary. Although I didn't convince him that it was necessary, I did convince him that it would make me feel better. So his only advice to me is to do a detailed side-view diagram of the concrete work, and (here's the kicker) not to "officially" specify 3,000psi or 4,000psi mix. The reason for this is that if I officially document in my plans that I'm using such a strong mix, it must be independently tested, which is expensive and difficult (becuase of the "small potatoes" nature of my project, getting someone to do the test would be a challenge). He said to spec 2,500psi (because that's what code requires), and then I could use pretty much any mix I wanted that met or exceeded that spec. In short, since I don't officially need that strong of a mix, I need not have the burden of proving that the mix is that strong. It's akin to using a superior grade of lumber when the plans call for an inferior grade. In other words, this is not "cheating" -- it's "upgrading" without the certification hassles. :) Once I do that drawing, I'll add it to my "version 2" packet and then submit it, along with a check for $103 for the "official" plan check. Then it will go straight to that senior guy for a more careful analysis. Assuming it's a go, I'll have a permit in about a week (after I pay the other $350 or so in permit fees)! If it's not a go, I'm sure there will just need to be some more slight tweaks or clarification in my plans/documentation. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Things are going really well! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

great news! :D :D :D :D :D