UAN - new Control Room build

Quick question.....can spray foam insulation be used between the door framing and wall framing, or must it be glass/mineral wool type?

i questioned the Homasote because as Brien points out due to the mass of the door, it could end up unstable because the Homasote will not be as sturdy as desired. so... i would go with putting the jamb right to the frame - minimally shimming as needed to finalize the square and then any small gaps should be sealed - caulk works and can be pumped in, this way it remains flexible with repeated door operations. so make sure the door rough frame is as square and close to the jamb tolerance as possible.

Ditto to what Glenn said...it is all about the weight and if you add air in this respect, the distance now depends on the ability of the screw/nail to support what is often a massive weight.The homosote would fill a void, but will reduce the ability of the fastener to support the frame/door.

NOTE ... the following was posted BEFORE xSpaces message above !!!!

gullfo wrote:

i questioned the Homasote because as Brien points out due to the mass of the door, it could end up unstable because the Homasote will not be as sturdy as desired.

:shock: Wow ... this is surprising to hear ! I was referencing from both Rods' 2nd edition, page 106, AND from one of the builds here on the forum. From Rod ... he had 'compressed rockwool' between the jamb and the framing. I [also] thought I read that using rigid fiberglass could be used. Now ... I'm really just asking questions about this !!! Just to say ... this homasote stuff [at least the piece I have], is very rigid. AND ... this 4x8 - 1/2" sheet has plenty of weight to it. Trying to squeeze on this board ... it does NOT give. Tapping on the board ... it is quite dead 'sounding'. Obviously, it quite a surprise that its' given the thumbs DOWN ! :cop: OK ... so let me get the correct concept/materials for this. Forget the caulk [for the moment]. If not rockwool, and NOT homasote ... WHAT material should I get to help break the connection between my double walls and this door jamb. Sorry for my [apparent] goof on this ... hoping for a quick reply to know what to buy ! Thank-you Gentlemen :)

xSpace wrote:

Ditto to what Glenn said...it is all about the weight and if you add air in this respect, the distance now depends on the ability of the screw/nail to support what is often a massive weight.The homosote would fill a void, but will reduce the ability of the fastener to support the frame/door.

This I can understand. What is NOW confusing ... wouldn't ANYTHING [just about] put between the heavy jamb and the framing be an issue ??? OK ... I admit ... I've not worked with rockwool. I did see a piece at the lumber yard EARLY in my research. It was not very solid [so to speak]. It seemed like it could easily break or crumble. If I used compressed fiberglass ... to compress it to the level that would prevent the jamb from 'rocking in place', would seem iff-y at best. The homasote 'seem' [by far] a much better product to use. [MY ignorance]. So what do we use ? I'm not only trying to build this room ... I'm also trying to learn as I go here. Bottom line is ... this jamb is the ONLY bridge [hard connection] between my 2 stud walls. If there is ONE thing I've learned from you Guys ... this be a big No-NO :cop: According to Rod ... rockwool. Is this the only stuff to use? Big Thanks ! PLEASE take my message here in the correct light. It is quite frustrating for me not to understand all this stuff yet. Sincerely

On the jamb bridge question, do not bridge the two walls. Put the door on one wall or the other. Then extend the other with a jamb to around 1/4" away from the other. Still no hard contact. Put in some rigid insulation and backer rod and caulk. You can trim over it with cloth or paint or stain etc to finish it. This way the jamb is almost continous but in reality it is not and the air gap is sealed to preserve the spring air space between the walls.

I think we have to define "jamb material". When these heavy doors are being designed and the rough openings are being prepped for them, this is done in tandem. For the amount of weight we are talking about, it may require you to use double studs at the rough opening for the door. Insulation is not the issue as you think it is or keep getting confused on. This is difficult to teach or prepare someone for who has lack of talent in this area, construction in general:) The rough frame has to be able to support a door of substantial weight, the jamb has to be designed to do the same thing. So if you can do this, and you have a open void (often the void will be at the top of the door and the lock side) you fill it...simple right? The hinge side will be hard against the rough jamb...

Hi Glenn ... Hi Brian. Just back from a gig. I wanted to post what I had been referencing too this entire time. I had also presented this in my SketchUP file. This is an excerpt from Rod's, 1st edition, book. My 2nd edition, hard copy, uses the same basic design: I hope it is now clear WHY I am shocked/confused with the proposed redesign of the Super Door. To my understanding, it appears the design change treats the door [similar] to the window construction in Rod's book. But, as pointed out, we are dealing with a massive [heavy] door instead. I would like more time to really ponder this change. I would also appreciate ANY performance comparisons [TL loss, etc] that may be available of the 2 designs. Let me just say ... I see merit AND concerns with BOTH designs. To Brian's' point ... this is correct, I am NOT a vetern carpenter or builder. I am also not fluent with the terms used in the construction trade ... but I insist that I will learn/ understand so that [at a minimum] I can clearly describe/detail to whom may be actually doing the construction. I also need to be able to field questions from those working with me. In all seriousness ... I have stopped this build until I am certain how I will proceed with this critical door matter. and if Mr Gervais is in the house ... I would invite his clarification of what design he has set forth in BOTH editions of his books. Every person inquiring on a design has to have a door in there ... it would be quite an education to sit in on the discussion with 'The GURUS'. Thank you for you time & patients. Sincerely.

In the static world I live in, a typical door will come in with trim and you attache the trim to the rough framing. I still think that your misunderstanding of at least a few things. The door that we see, your top side view LOOKS like the trim is holding the framing in place....AND THAT is a typical door installation. But this ain't no typical door...and that overhead print leaves much to be desired first and takes us right back to how to best secure a frame, second. The frame has to be fastened, for the door frame, in such a way as to secure the rough framing...you can bridge it like mentioned but the hinge side...hell Talk to MAX and let's see what he has to say. He can clarify more what Rod is doing...since he has completed that project.

xSpace wrote:

The door that we see, your top side view LOOKS like the trim is holding the framing in place....AND THAT is a typical door installation.

Hi Brian, The diagram of the 'top side' view of the door ... IS the exact print from Rods' 1st edition book ... 'Build like a Pro'. Although I may be violation copyright protocol ... what I have posted [above] is HIS design for the Super Door. When I purchased his 2nd edition ... it was the same diagram !!! I posted this, SPECIFICALLY' to illustrate what is considered to be the bible on this stuff. MORE importantly, I am NOT trying/pretending to be an expert on this. If I DID ... then I would be denying MYSELF the potential to learn from the experts here. It's called playing the naive student. Any tidbits of knowledge/insights that you guys share is ALL my gain. That doesn't mean I'll understand right away, NOR will I except ANYONES point as The Almighty. What I do is remove MY judgment/bias and opinions and try to absorb what someone is trying to teach me. I believe that mindset put me 'under the wings' of some of the top producers ... because they saw that I make the sincere effort and determination to learn, implement AND innovate. My passion and desire to learn & understand. Alright .... enough :blah: :blah: :blah: Had the important conversation with my contractor, relaying the design concept that Glenn & Brian have presented. First & foremost ... my door MUST be attached to open INTO the room. To MAX the height of the door, it must be then attached to the INNER frame. This means the possible 300lb door would be secured to ONLY the inner room. OK When talking with the engineer/designer at PAC international, isolation sway brackets were installed to meet this potential criteria. That being, EACH of the 4 interior walls have a pair of isolation sway brackets [Heavy Duty] in place. For the door area, I also have 4 more brackets on site. It was suggested that 2 or 3 be installed about the hinge side, with at least 1 installed on the 'latch' side. Now ... I did some, rather, serious yanking & pulling on the currently exposed inner framing. Confidence is HIGH as to the structure integrity and stability. According to the PAC designer/inventor [whose name just escapes me] ... explained that the TRUE stress will exist on the hinge side ... as a TWISTing force. Within the 'endpoint' where the frame & the jamb connect ... we will add the concrete anchor bolts [as used in the rest of the floor plates] to secure the floor plate. When it comes to the wall studs on the hinge side ... we will use as many as needed ... right now, I don't know what that will be. [suggestions if possible]. Key point ... the hinge side will happen to be a short wall [before it corners off to the kick-off wall around the sump pump area. My intent, is to leave enough area behind the door swinging left into the room, that having a 4" thick absorber panel ... MOUNTED 4" off the door surface [exactly like the wall panels in the room] would allow the door to open slightly over 90* [hopefully more]. My restriction is on the latch side where I have a support beam under the buildings' Main Load Bearing Beam. It's in my sketchup file :) OK .... now if what I've described makes sense and is conceptually correct ... I need to hear. The 'split frame' concept proposed by Glenn makes absolute sense to maintain isolation. The 'on site' consensus is that the structure we've built can support this. Diagrams and pictures are always welcomed !!!! And I do have a concern about the hinge side jamb being an exception to the 'separation' rule. I believe Brian, you stated this ... ?!?!? I don't recall ... I need to understand why this was proposed. Gentlemen ... true to form ... nothing that is important can be too easy .... and I sincerely thank-you for your continued patients AND guidance you have shared with me throughout this process. Please excuse my sometimes attitude during this ... I have been without a work room for more than 6 months ... and my heart is aching :| Please bear with me. Thank-you!

xSpace wrote:

In the static world I live in, a typical door will come in with trim and you attache the trim to the rough framing. I still think that your misunderstanding of at least a few things. The door that we see, your top side view LOOKS like the trim is holding the framing in place....AND THAT is a typical door installation. But this ain't no typical door...and that overhead print leaves much to be desired first and takes us right back to how to best secure a frame, second. The frame has to be fastened, for the door frame, in such a way as to secure the rough framing...you can bridge it like mentioned but the hinge side...hell Talk to MAX and let's see what he has to say. He can clarify more what Rod is doing...since he has completed that project.

<snork> You're asking ME?!? OOOF... You're the qualified carpenter... I'm just the idiot with a hole in his pocket... But having built 6 of them pretty much by myself, I can ASSURE you, that the backing between the door frames that appears to be quite thick... absolutely requires the hinge side to be firmly attached at every single level. I took each slab door and put it on the floor. I built a frame with 5/4" stock, set the hinges and lifted the door square in the frame. Set the frame in the door, and packed the spacing with rigid foam, pink fluffy, then socked the hinge side down as level as I could, with 3" screws. Then I screwed the opening and top. Taking great care to check plumb, square and level. And even doing all that, I have one door that still needs a tweek... but taking that door off the hinge is out of the question. And all because of some minor warp in the framing I didn't catch. I can't tell you exactly the number of nails and screws that are involved in the whole assembly, but I made damn sure that the inner most plates were attached to the actual framing, or at least the actual hinge plate. Which, in my case I chose 5/4" 4S kiln dried pine. The rest of the framing is air dried white oak off the property. The oak gives me a lot of added structural rigidity in the holding power of the door assembly... which you need, but not enough. Wood will always expand and contract. So, you have to add as much stability as you can, in how you nail the assembly together. I used 3" 16ga finish to attach the first 3 layers if the frame. It's only the 4th and final bank vault trim that got nailed with a 2" nail. Four of my Superdoors, have a window consisting of two sheets of 3/4" glass. To make up for the additional losses of the opening, and any potential lowering of the f0 of the door, I added 1/32" additional sheet lead to what Rod calls for. (Call me paranoid... but mass is your friend.) In the end, I'm gonna guestimate that the average door weight is 650lbs... if one were to let go, and fall on someone... it would most assuredly kill them. Do NOT take it lightly in how you put your door assemblies together.

here's what i typically do on the door question. to Max's point, the mass of the door can be quite high - probably 300lb minimum.

I am aware this is Rod's diagram, I have the book as well. What I was saying is that this overhead shot looses a lot in how it is being framed. "you can bridge it like mentioned but the hinge side." The hinge side has to be secured directly to the rough framing since it carries all the weight. 'sall I was saying...:)

First ... a big HELLO to 'MadMax' ! Thanks for stopping in and posting ... I had been to your thread to see your amazing project. I need to go back and re-read ! But THANKS for sharing your experience & insights ! :D Will get back after the re-read. Ahhh ... to Glenn. Thank-you. :wink: Fate has once again altered things ... my finishing carpenter will be out of commission for about a month :| Just confirmed this last night. This afternoon I went to one of the top 'mill' companies in our area to present the design & requirements for the door. I also had them look at the hinges I purchased ... got the BIG nod of approval ! :D After the 'kidding' on a bullet proof door, or one that Superman couldn't peer into :| They got down to the specifics and implementation ... in full agreement to the design and the required 'break' in flanking. Needless to say that I was glad to see their cooperation with this. [Maybe the $$$ my brother sends through them had a bit of influence] :idea: So ... here's were I'm at: 1. Get final measurements verified. 2. Specify raw materials. The 1-3/4" solid core door is Birch. [OK?] The question raise ? What type of wood for the 5/4" jamb :?: :?: Now ... without going completely off the deep end with some wild,exotic jamb lumber ... I also want to avoid lumber that would have issues [basement, humidity, warp, split, and whatever else can go wrong]. It would also be nice to be able to put a nice finish [stain] on it. The mill can get any type of wood wanted. The initial thought is possibly a hardwood, rather than something like pine [soft]. The word 'Oak' was brought out. No mention of price as yet :shock: So, GANG ... lookin' for some reasoned choice of preference !?!?! Thank-you berry much :) and thanks for the diagram Glenn.

the jamb with the door could be oak and the jamb extension pine if you're painting or not worried about matching. the door core can be oak or other heavy hardwood.

Thanks for your input Max...

Wow ... Still so many things to do .... Door ... getting it together ... slowly :) Another question ... I have the GM gasket for the seals ... but wondering ... What suggestions for bottom threshold ??? I've looked at the various designs, and concerned about how they seal to the floor. Wondering about the 'guillotine' style, or something by Zero International ??? Any recommends ? Thanks again :)

I used a "standard" exterior adjustable threshold along with the Zero guillotine and Zero magnetic strips/gaskets. Seems to be fine... pricey... but good stuff ain't cheap, and cheap stuff ain't always good.

xaMdaM wrote:

I used a "standard" exterior adjustable threshold along with the Zero guillotine and Zero magnetic strips/gaskets. Seems to be fine... pricey... but good stuff ain't cheap, and cheap stuff ain't always good.

Hi Max ! Finally found your 'build thread' ... [a different forum] ... :roll: Yea ... I've been searching around, looking at different 'thresholds'. The thing is, many of the designs I've seen, LOOK to be a massive sound leak. Sure ... we can get a sealing to the back side of the door. But when I look at the bottom section of these plates, with their slight rise, they are hollow underneath. I even modeled one of the ZERO INT thresholds in SketchUP. Hoping that I could get a virtual look to see how acoustically 'tight' I could get it. Of course, NOT having one on site ... I STILL feel like I'd be guessing. Too ADD to the issue ... I pretty sure that I need to submit the exact height of this door to the Mill, Which means I need to know what GAP to have between the concrete floor to the bottom of the door. And to keep it all FUN ... I have to factor in a floor slope. :shock: The 'plan' was to install the door, and then do a 'box-in' to add leveling cement. :roll: A CRAZY thought [of mine] was to see if the Mill could build the jamb, mount the door and hinges, and then square-brace the jamb. THEN, remove the door. We could then installed the braced jamb, finish out the drywall, and then work an actual threshold in place. Cut door to known height & install. yeah ... I'm sure that would work :roll: Obviously more searching ... but I sure appreciate insights, comments, suggestions !! Big THANKS!!! ---- EDIT ---- HAH ... just when you thought I couldn't ask another DUMB question :shock: :horse: Do I even NEED a threshold :| Can a 'guillotine' seal the door straight to the concrete ... if there is, say, a 1/4" slope in the floor ??? Honestly, I would prefer NOT to have something to step over. My only concern is maximizing isolation. humble thanks :wink:

Progress report ... Scoping out the door area. Good meeting with contractor. Went through the door design & layout ON SITE. Talked with the Mill guys ... they are coming in Monday afternoon to do an on site verification of measurements & layout. PLUS ... they just want to see the place :mrgreen: I am looking at a potential issue. :| Attaching the hinge. Here's a SU pix: OK ... we are looking face on to the hinge. I have temporally removed the jamb so that the framing surface is exposed to hi-lite the issue. The yellow-ish section is the 2x4 stud frame. Directly 'behind' the hinge you can see the 2 layers of 5/8" drywall. THE ISSUE. Of the 4 visible screw holes that mount the hinge to the jamb, we would like to get 2 of the screws to fasten deep into the actual framing. Without splitting the frame wood. :shock: From my virtual reality model ... it looks like we have very little meat to screw into. This stems from the fact that the drywall forces the jamb edge to protrude 1-1/4" into the room. Now these hinges are extra HD Stanley FBB199 5" x 4.5" 32D. I don't know how, or if, the hinge can be set further back into the jamb, and STILL allow the door to open properly. Sure could use some expert advice !!! Thanks.

Door hinge -> frame attach idea :idea: OK ... putting an idea out there, welcome insights/comments, suggestions. As mentioned, the issue of getting [at least] one screw through the door hinge that would penetrate through the jamb INTO the framing. Due to the two layers of 5/8" drywall, the jamb would have to extend 'into' the room by 1-1/4", whereby the drywall would flush-butt against it. [Glenn's detail] This puts the hinge holes near the edge of the 2x4 frame. The idea I'm throwing around is to use a 2"x6" as the stud that the jamb would contact. [Maybe this is called the 'Jack or King Stud'] ?!? I'm thinking that this 2x6 stud would extend 5/8" past the floor/ceiling plates. Then, the first layer of drywall would butt up to this 2x6 side, and then the second layer of drywall would butt to the jamb [thereby covering the 2x6] in a type of overlap. Then we would use a 1x3[?] trim to cover the jamb/2x6 seam. here a SU pix: Again ... thinking that we need more meat area to screw into. NOTE: if this changes anything ... the jamb material is slated as Red Oak. Am I worrying for nothin' :? Do I need to get a screw into the frame, or is the jamb enough ? Please guide me here. Thanks! OH ... the hinge is [obviously] open in my pix. It should be closed and connected to the side of door ... but I've not had time to figure out how, in SketchUP, to do on moveable part. :| Too many important things to do & learn.

if you consider the entire door and jamb as an assembly you can position the jamb flush to the framing (eliminating the meat issue) and you could use a bit of 5/4 to extend the jamb to the drywall face, or you could single layer of 5/8" drywall behind the trim board with a corresponding offset of the trim and drywall to allow the door to swing cleanly. this means the trim is slightly inset into the drywall level but if you have not other option then that will work. not different than typical door installation except you're working with additional drywall depth and a 500lb door :shock: use the door closer to control the range of motion or use a door stop. on the floor seal - if you find an adjustable seal which can be angled across the slope that could eliminate the threshold although the threshold will give you a more reliable seal.

Not to 100% ignore other responses - but ignoring the other well qualified responses... :shock: I built the doors exactly as Rod has them drawn... less the zero guillotine seal on three doors... and there are no major issues. Rod's drawings are exacting in their detail and accuracy. The primary thing you want to remember is that wherever air goes, so goes sound.... thus, caulking the bottom and edges of the jamb, threshold and similar edges will stop the MF/HF sound. The mass is there to stop the LMF and LF sounds. If nothing else, take your time and build the frames with the threshold and door in place. Then, as you said, put the door in place - plum, square and level. Then seal the perimeter and then add your additional blocking and stops. That's the way I did it... except I left the door in position as I added the lead, plywood, windows and finishes. (I did cut the window openings prior to building the frame assemblies to make it easier to install the windows... accuracy of cuts and all that.)

Gentlemen ... thank you for your replies ! Just wanted to post an update here. Had an on site meeting with the Mill company to look over the door build today. The guy [Richard] was great. He was VERY interested with the entire concept & build that we have going. He had a keen eye, and acknowledged the level and detail of work that has already gone in. Specifically focused to the critical nature of the door, seals & entrance. And particularly mindful of the weight. It was also nice that he had close relations to music and studios, so we chatted across several topics :) Very nice. He went through the entire door layout, diagramming the exact measurements for the split jamb [by Glenn] that we want to implement. When he gets to the office, they will draw up their own build detail ... but also, check further into specific woods to use. He mentioned that 'oak' is a hardwood, but that it is porous. Suggested were words like maple & birch [i believe ?]. He said he would get me choices to use. Obviously, wood properties is not something I that familiar with. Him being a master woodsman would heed to his advice. Richard also was concerned about keeping the door closed tight. He was not pleased with the idea of using a dead bolt on the inside. The 'door closer' would NOT be sufficient to keep a door sealed tight. Of course ... the LOOK I got from my Home Inspector brother told me what he thought of the idea :shock: soooo .... Richard gave a name to a specialty place that does things like freezer doors. He said they probably have already invented the wheel for this, and would have a solution. They may also have a better 'sealing' material or product than what I currently have ... hmm. So ... this be all I know. The WILL be a question about how to best mount the lead sheet & plywood face to the door. I'm thinkin' bolting the 'sandwich' together. But here we go putting HOLES into it :| What I was attempting to avoid with the door latch. If anyone tells you that building an isolated controlled room is easy ... well don't :cen: believe it. As always ... Thank-you you for sharing and guidance! Sincerely.

ok ... this question keeps coming up ... been reading searched threads here regarding door latches. The 'inspector' is frowning the use of a dead-bolt on the interior side of the CR door. Here's the deal ... I do NOT need to LOCK this door ... I only need to have a firm 'close' to maintain a solid acoustic seal. I a response, Rod says he used a dead-bolt ... but others have said 'ya gotta do what you gotta do' ... So I need to do something ... what of the idea of using one of the commercial latched door handles that use a thumb trigger to release the door ? I was trying to avoid open holes ... but ... if this is the ONLY way to go ... any insights. I did see mention of using a magnetic grabber ... but I'm convince that breaking the magnetic 'lock' to open the door wouldn't be a PITA for daily use. Thanks for sharing ideas, suggestions. ====EDIT ==== of course I find another thread. Rod says ... "if you never want to lock the door - then you really don't need a latch...... a closure will close and hold closed a door........ especially if you have magnetic weatherstripping.......... so beyon that all you need is a pull for the outside (door opens to you) and a push plate for the inside (a push plate is always nicer than getting your bodily oils all over a nice door finish). Rod" So I guess I won't know UNTIL I get the door completely mounted :roll: I think I still should have a 'What-IF' plan ready.