very good! carry on then!
UAN - new Control Room build
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 14794.
I hope you took my previous message with a bit of humor :wink: OK then .... we have ceiling insulation installed ! It has been difficult to get any good photos of this ... but here are a couple ... Lighting & angle have been tough on the iPhone camera ... hope you can make it out :| Besides the ceiling area, I have finished up both 'kick-in' corners. The one by the sump pump need blocking up in the joist bins for the outer wall drywall. Blocking and insulation are in. Even harder to get pics of that ... but I'm both glad I got it in ... all sealed with caulking, and insulated. Here's one pix of just the blocking ... Other things ... Awhile back, I was looking into the isolation sway brackets ... anticipating the need to stabilize the inner wall build. In doing so, I talked to Kelly at PAC INTERNATIONAL with a few questions. She said that she would have someone call me back ... and someone did. His name was a bit hard to catch, but I got it down as 'Elzo' ???!? The conversation started off on the difficult side as I tried to explain what I was doing and looking to resolve. Well, Elzo started asking a whole bunch of direct questions ... and even, kinda, painting me into a corner [not in a real bad way], but I was definitely sensing that I was undergoing a test. All I had to go on was the teaching/guidance I've gotten from Glenn & Stuart [at that time]. Once I was able to defend all the direct questions he put to me ... and then explain the design ... everything started taking on a whole different tone :) He started talking to me about isolation stuff [in a friendly] ... but very serious/passionate way. He asked more about what I had been doing in the music field ... which he said he had already Google'd me on ... ok .... but the conversation then went on for over an hour, as we talked about all things music, recording, acoustics and science. It was a facinating conversation. He also talked about some very special people here [Glenn] ... and mentioned that multi-talents they have ... besides designers ... I hear we are also in the company of accomplished musicians !! Anyway ... he expressed HIGH compliments to you! I told him I felt very priviledge to be under your design & implimentation guidance. Well ... we talked over many things, so the specifics I relayed may have jumbled a bit ... but it was wonderful. And to the main reason, Elzo said that I could use the RSIC-DC04 HD decoupling sway brace clips. Strategically placing 2 per wall, and specifics on the door hinge section. Sending me all the data sheets too !!! Done as he instructed, he said less than 1% transmission. OK. order a dozen clips. NOW that all the walls and joist are assembled ... the inner room structure is very sturdy. Attempts to push/pull on the structure yield maybe 1/16-> 1/8" movement ... if that. With that in mind ... I went ahead and installed the clips. They are 'lightly' touching the outer wall surface. My thinking was to provide a fail-safe security brace that would prevent the inner walls from moving ... if someone fell into the wall ... or more so, the possible stress from the super door opening & closing. Maybe this is extreme overkill ?!? :roll: What I DIDN'T do was install a connecting pin/screw through the center of the isolation rubber section. Here's a pic showing the inner wall to foundation contact. With 2 clips positioned on each of the 4 inner walls the movement is restricted in all directions. Let me stop at this point ... There are some questions coming in ... especially on the electrical runs into the room that I would like to bounce around.very good! carry on then!
very good move on the clips since the room is going to be several tons when finished and having it topple on you would not be good. on the electrical, i'd penetrate the room once, put in a box in the room if you need to, and route all electric ducts on the isolation surfaces, you can use absorbers and treatments to hide most of it. put the room electric on a single leg from your main power and ideally a separate leg from your inductive equipment.
Hi Glenn !
Thanks for the confirmation on using the clips ! I will now go ahead and finish stapling in
the insulation in those areas. :mrgreen:
Da 'Super Door'.
OK ... after hitting several auto stores & dealers, I finally found a, somewhat, nearby
place that ordered the seal for the door. What came in does NOT look quite as beefy as
in the catalogue :|
Did I get the right stuff ????
Electrical feed into room.
Might be getting ahead of myself, but trying to get some kind of a 'fuzzy' plan together :wink:
The requirements:
The 'hardware' will be computer based. I currently use a 1500VA battery back-up regulator
that handles the 'puter, screen, & misc. For the 'near-future", I will be adding additional
computer server(s) that will be networked to the main system [LAN - most likely].
Whether these 'servers' will be physically located in the control room is yet to be determined.
They may end up outside the front wall, with cable runs into the CR. Noise & heat will help
in that decision.
Beside computer needs, I plan to switch over to 2 or 3 LCD widescreen monitors. My 2 CTR
20" ones are just to bulky.
Additionally I have a synth & drum machine that would be nice. It would be prudent to
have headroom for expansion :)
Lighting for the CR has been on ongoing search. With concerns over heat along with the
limitations in the ceiling height, I've been searching out the LCD track lighting, and some
form of sconce lighting on the walls [dim-able].
I tend to work in low-level lighting normally. Bright lighting needed to clean & vacuum.
Along with electrical, I'm trying to plan a way for future 'data' lines that I would like to keep
separate from the AC feeds.
The idea I've been toying with goes something like this:
Using PVC tube. Cut it in half. With the use of a rubber 'coupler', connect the 2 pieces into
one that would penetrate the width of both 2x4 walls. Using some type of large grommet
sleeve that would be mounted in the drywall hole to pass the tube thru. Caulk edges.
At the ends of the PVC tube I would cut a notch that would let the cable 'hang' down
from. INSIDE the tube ends, put some heavy electrical putty inside a heavyduty baggy, and
stuff that into the end of the tube, covering the wires going into the slit. THEN ... cover the
end of the tube with a rubber cap.
Something like this:
Now ... this is just an idea.
The electrician is thinking of just punching a hole for the electric wire ... caulk it, and mount
a box inside. I don't know.
After all the warnings about putting ANY holes in these walls ... and seeing what others have
done to seal electrical boxes, etc ... I'm really thinking of going the 'conduit' lines throughout
the room. Like you would see in one of those modular office partitions.
The issue with those [besides cost] is HOW to actually MOUNT the conduits ! Are we
talking liquid nailing wood to the drywall, and then screwing conduit, boxes, and light switches
into the wood??? Track lighting too :shock: :?
This is ALSO going to be THE issue when it comes time to mount the acoustic panels on
the walls and the ceiling clouds. Maybe the electrical and DATA ports are handled differently?
Well ... I've probably driven you crazy [a long time ago] with all these nit-pic questions, I
apologize for that ! .... but I need to know the best way to implement this 8)
Once again ... thank-you thank-you !!!
the seal looks right. you use 2 set of seals to ensure proper operation. this way if a seal starts to degrade or otherwise fail, you have the second set to back that up until you can replace it.
on the electrical - use a split on the conduit for the power to decouple it. use an entry on one space within the studs and the exit on another - this way you don't have back to back holes. seal thoroughly and seal the ends of the conduit when done wiring. use multiple circuits for the lights. i like to run track lights off switched outlets so i can vary the lamps that are on for a given switch setting. low light - 3-4 lights up front, medium front + 3-4 lights in the back, full, 4-6 more lights around as needed to see everything as much as possible. if you need to go dimmer - use variacs not electronic dimmers. http://www.variac.com/staco_variable_tr ... _500_s.htm (note these are for incandescent and LED which can use voltage levels for dimming)
Alright !!! Understood on the double seal. One seal hits the door proper, the second seal will be landing on the 1" plywood board [offset ~1" from door edge]. I'm temp holding on the 3rd magnetic seal ... if I gotta do it ... we'll know :) Electrical ...the seal looks right. you use 2 set of seals to ensure proper operation.
ahh ... this may be the tough part. Here's what we have ... between the 2 double walls, there is about an 1-1/2" gap between the plates. The 'total' thickness of the 2 walls span ~8-1/2". Based on the way the 'room-inside-a-room' laid out, the studs are offset about an 1" apart between the 2 walls. WOW ... trying to visualize how this is to go is makin' the head hurt :shock: alright ... I need to think this through, cause so far I'm seeing many issue about this. 1st being ... running conduit into and across wall studs. Are we drilling holes into the studs too ?!?!? 2. certainly the conduit cannot be allowed to short circuit the 2 walls. 3. bending wire at 90 degree turns ... especially if the conduit is sized to be minimal. 4. This goes in BEFORE the drywall goes on ... then we have to cut to locate ?!? OK ... and probably I'm just not following this correctly ... maybe some pics or an example link would help. The other question ... how much would the difference be as opposed to the straight through tube thats properly sealed & decoupled ??? Sorry ... the head is spinning ... please help me see ! :oops:use an entry on one space within the studs and the exit on another - this way you don't have back to back holes.
you might drill through one set of studs or the other if the conduit doesn't fit between them. this shouldn't be different than normal wiring tactics in that regard.
Progress report ...
Well ... took a little break after getting all this insulation installed.
It's been fascinating to hear the sonic changes that have evolved... going
from a huge echo chamber now to this 'dry/deadish' sound. The ears kinda 'pop' when
I walk into room :shock:
All of this is about to dramatically change now that the 1st layer of inner room drywall
was just delivered today. :mrgreen: Also grabbed a few pounds of both 1-5/8" & 2-1/2"
coarse drywall screws along with several drywall countersink adapters for the drills.
And of course ................. more CAULK :roll:
Due to storage restrictions, I figured that I would get materials to deal with only the 1st
layer of 'skin' for the inner room. This way we can get a good feel for how this goes AND
I won't feel rushed when I go in to seal all the seams and caulk perimeters.
Right now I'm trying to plan the best layout for the drywall, since this is going to be the
'base' layer ... I'd like to ensure that the seams for the final second layer overlap correctly,
and that the 'cuts' required are minimized for this final layer. Remembering that we'll be
using 2 cartridges of GreenGlue/4x8 sheet 'sandwich'.
Have some important playing gigs coming up with the band, so we are looking at the
schedule to start the drywall.
Order of procedure ....
Glenn [or anyone else who may be following this :)] ... I'm thinking through the various
issues that will be coming up when we'll need to penetrate the room for electrical, HVAC,
fresh air, and possible 'data' lines. To these particular issues, my thinking is that I will hold
off drywalling the outer walls [which currently have insulation just placed into the wells].
With that, I'd still have some access to get at openings, and be able to properly seal them
from the 'inner side'. I realize that the outer skin needs to be in place before I can do any
routing of conduit etc ... but at least I wouldn't close myself out till the last moment !
When we do get to drywalling ... I've been reading through many of the other builds here,
but one question still lingers.
Since we will start with the ceiling ... does this 1st layer ceiling get mounted 'tight' to the
corner of the top plate & joist ???
I understand that the walls will be offset from the floor, the ceiling, and corners.
For that I grabbed a handful of paint stir sticks. The small ones have a 1/8" thickness, while the BIG STICk
has an 1/4" thickness. I planned to place 2 spacers on the floor an temp tape 2 to the
ceiling ... which thickness should I use ?
Again ... thanks for keeping me on the straight & narrow :)
make your conduits into the room big enough to feed the wiring through. same approach for the AC unit plumbing. then seal those conduits when done.
Which 'spacing' would you want me to use ?? Also ... the 1st ceiling layer ... is it OK to to a 'normal' install of drywall tight to the plate and joist corners? I understand the 2nd layer ceiling will be offset from the 1st wall layer by whatever gap you say. Thanks!!I understand that the walls will be offset from the floor, the ceiling, and corners. For that I grabbed a handful of paint stir sticks. The small ones have a 1/8" thickness, while the BIG STICk has an 1/4" thickness. I planned to place 2 spacers on the floor an temp tape 2 to the ceiling ... which thickness should I use ?
ok ... more reading of the forum ...
Thinking through my last question ... it seems to make more sense to
go with the 1/4" spacing on the perimeter [big stick] so as to enable
sufficient space to insert caulk.
To the mounting of the 1st ceiling layer, the initial concern was generated by the
discussion of 'flanking' into the surrounding walls ... however, with ceiling joist resting
on the inner wall top plate, the connection has been made. No doubt that the surface
area of the drywall will respond to sound pressure to a much higher order than the
framing could.
The initial conclusion seems, installing the 1st layer ceiling as any 'normal' install. That is,
allowing the edges to touch the side top plate. The 'best' that can be done is to 1/4" gap the
wall perimeters, and seal with caulk.
I hesitate to draw these conclusions. Maybe just yielding to practicality :?
basically leave the 1/4" gap wherever - on the edges of the ceiling, between layer edges etc. this allows you a margin of error to avoid contacting the surfaces.
It's all about contraction and expansion...and reducing hard connections.
Alright Glenn ... I'll follow your instructions on the gap ... although I admit, I'm not fully
understanding the implications of the 1st ceiling layer touching the top plate. :oops: :|
Other than the 'safety margin' for the side walls ! No doubt, assembling something with
actual materials can bring out the challenge :roll: To 'that' concern, I do have to be ever
mindful that my construction crew is sensitive to the build criteria. OH .... did I just make
an insinuation about the 'crew' :!: Strike that :P
:lol:
other events ...
Yesterday a meeting with the contractor and an excellent finishing carpenter.
SUBJECT: The DOOR.
I'll pulled out all the charts, graphs, & diagrams ... and even had a 'building block' display
going. They said it was quite the show ... I try :)
The original slab of door has been questioned, as I find out that there are 'panel' design
that have been routed into the solid core door :roll: I'm NOT sure what issues this would
cause with the added 'beef-up' that need happen. Kinda disappointed to now hear this, as
there was a sentimental factor influencing this piece.
Once they understood that a layer of 3/4" [as req in Rod's book], or maybe 1" finished
plywood was being added ... we may have to just buy a raw, solid core door.
QUESTION ... the 'lead' that is asked for in this door sandwich brought out the stare from the
crowd. Like ... where the heck are we to get something like that ! The last news on LEAD
was that they were looking to ban it from human contact .... or something like that.
Substitute ?!?! would a 1" plywood layer with Green Glue be any type of substitute ?
.... just asking.
All of this plays into the next bit of ordering, and that be the hinges. The contenders are
the ZERO Z950 or the Z955. [500lb & 300lb load respectively]. The carpenter has indicated
the preference for using 3 hinges whichever.
Of course ... this is in a basement and we have a slope in the floor. [particularly just where
the door has to go ... :shot: ] So, the plan is this ... for not much $$$, we will have a
'mock up' door and frame built and test installed to see what we really have to deal with,
before we go hitting the expensive stuff. Sounded reasonable ...
well ... before you are bored even further beyond tears ... I say good nite as I prep for
tomorrows out of town gig.
As always ... Sincere THANK-YOU !
The gap around the drywall on the first layer isn't critical if the top plate and joists are in full contact anyways but it sets the stages for all the other gaps and trains the 'crew' to adhere to the remaining layers where it is important. On the door, the routed areas should be filled. Sheet lead is available and after it's installed it is away from human contact. You should be able to locate a supplier locally. Balancing your costs and proper support will decide on 3 or 4 hinges.
Wow ... made it thru a hectic gig schedule :D
Then ... last night .... a new toy shows up in the Control Room ....
:mrgreen:
Granted ... there are only 8 or so sheets going up on the ceiling ... but I figure
WHY should we struggle with this part of the install. 8)
This afternoon had some laborer's carry a load of drywall down into the basement.
Tomorrow is slated to begin drywall install.
Also this afternoon had a consultation meeting with my HVAC guy. He very keen to the
requirements that have been presented in these forums ... and checks with me as to
isolation, decoupling concerns & solutions ... On top of that, he has plenty experience with
split ductless systems.
In one of the post that JSayer tagged regarding the fresh-air supplied split system, I've
been trying to locate a US distributor.
The original link is here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15724
As it stands now .... my HVAC guy took all room measurements & questions and is going to his
distributor to calculate the AC requirements. He also asked me to look [research] out
one of the HRV [heat recovery ventilator] designs [Fantec ?].
We also look at various install strategies [size & placement]. I'd like to diagram this out
in hopes the board GURU's would make sure I don't screw up! :shock:
More also .... my 'Super Door' guy is getting things together. At present, there is a 5'
gap in the door area, so drywalling will need to keep clear until we get that section framed
out. Not sure if we can even start the GG second layer before the door section is finalized.
See what they say ?!? :|
At least a few things are going on ... guess it could be called progress!
Should be interesting ... along with how the room sound goes into another transformation.
Thanks!!!!!
another option is the concealed duct system and attaching the ventilation function to that so if you're running air ducts anyways, do it once...
Here's a basic drywall question !!!!
When dealing with 'outside' corners ... how should the drywall pieces be aligned. ?????
I've seen examples on doing inside wall corners ... that is, maintaining a 1/4" gap along the
perimeters ... ok ... that'll be filled with backer rod & caulk.
What I don't quite understand is how the 'protruding' corner edge is to be assembled.
The drywall guys say the usual way is to extend one wall out to the surface of the adjacent
wall, and then cover with a 'bull nose' corner piece.
Right away I was concerned :shock:
My guess would be ... extend wall to adjacent surface, and then the other wall is 1/4" gapped
from that.
However ... behind these protruding corners are some 4-6 2x4's, which are providing quite
a massive corner backing. whatever that means, I'm not sure how to proceed with this :?
Remembering .... I'm only on the first of TWO 5/8 ths layers. Whatever is correct, I'll need
to have a procedure for the 2nd layer.
Sorry if I'm making this more complicated than it may well be ... the 'area' in question are
for the 2 kick-in sections by the sump pump wall, and the symmetrical, opposite side.
Thank- you for your continued guidance !
Crew back in the morning :)
Alrighty then ...
Progress report.
Well ... major transformation in the construction of my control room.
Two days ago began the installation of drywall to the ceiling area. Let me start off saying
that the drywall lift is a nice invention ... and WELL worth the rental fee :mrgreen:
Another handy adapter are the 'counter sinking drywall screw' attachment for the drill.
So we began ... the process went quite straightforward ... as we hoped. Every time a new
piece went up, I listened as the room developed a distinct character. As we neared completion,
the room had now assumed that, quite horrendous' comb filtered, slap back ricochet echo
that we all so despise :evil:
Before rapping up, we decided to get one sheet up on the side wall. Bro had to leave.
It was a good few hours work, as we talked over our strategy for the walls.
As I cleaned up ... I was now clearly aware ... I've just assembled the worst sounding room
on the planet. Everything that made a sound, from putting tools up, to walking, was absolute
sonic torture.
This afternoon I went back in to fill in some additional screws, and then began caulking the
ceiling perimeter. The room continued its' nastiness.
Early evening, Bro calls ... coming over to start walls. Great ... bring lighter fluid, I'm ready
to start a match :shock:
OK OK ... I confess ... I've been in several new studio builds. I recall the various states of
transformation that happen. :blah:
So ... on to the walls. Once again ... a rather straightforward process. The only real drag
was HAVING to drag more sheets down from the garage. Brother insisted it was 'easier' for
him to 'ONE MAN' it down the stairs.... and he did ... enough pieces to completely do the
1st layer of the inner room. Which we did :shock:
:yahoo:
My question on the outer protruding corner handling didn't get much of a response :roll:
During my forum search, I did find 1 message by XSpace. I wasn't sure how to interpret.
Therefore I followed the 'inner corner' logic ... leaving a small gap behind the overlap from
the adjacent wall. Probably was a wasted effort [i don't know], as those corners are quite
beefy [2x4], with an extra nailer for the 2nd layer. Maybe someone will point me to the
answer on that ...
In the meantime ... the question was asked ... 'bull nose' the corner ??? plastic ??? metal???
somethin' ????
I'll get a few pix posted a little later!
oww ... something maybe a bit more interesting.
OK ... so we have a 6' opening on the side wall where the door is to go. My brother walks
out and down around the front of the room out where my desk and computer are setup while
we build. He comes back in and ask 'Did you shut off the radio' ... I said no.
hmmm ...
later ... I go out the room, and around to the front ... the moment I turn the front corner,
it was like a lite switch ... the sound of the radio STOPS :shock:
Granted ... it's NOT blasting in the room ... comfortable 'work' level [and of course, the room
sounds LOUD]. Now ... several times I've walked around the corner ... it again, the sound
just switches off.
I am encourage. Only the inside room has drywall ... unsealed. And the outer wall has the
6' opening ... at at the front has 2 bins that need insulation installed. [I did have a section
opened to walk back and forth from] I stoled one bin insulation for the inner wall.
Anyway ... just thought I'd relay that bit of observation.
Once again ... sincere gratitude for the guidance & education !
PLEASE don't leave me yet !
Thank-you!
"The drywall guys say the usual way is to extend one wall out to the surface of the adjacent
wall, and then cover with a 'bull nose' corner piece.
Right away I was concerned :shock:
My guess would be ... extend wall to adjacent surface, and then the other wall is 1/4" gapped
from that."
Your inside corners and outside corners should look the same. The drywall guys are correct in what they are talking about, excepting that they are thinking in terms of one layer, which for you will be the final layer that you will use a taped / cornerbead or bull-nosed finish.
Thanks xSpace ! Much appreciate your insights & guidance ! Although the body has taken a slight beating :horse: I want to get a few pix posted. It began at the 'top', getting that first layer up on the ceiling: Was always checking the enclosed insulation, and the amount of 'touch' to the drywall. When we got to the walls, I used a few of the big paint stir sticks [free :)], taping them in place. On the floor, we stacked 2 sticks and measured tight to the ceiling. Then, of course, when the wall piece goes in there is a single stick. This provided the gapping at the top, bottom, and corners. Various pixs: The back kick-in walls. Front left: Front right: View looking from outside the room thru the 'door area'. As mentioned, it is hard to get good pix at this point ... Sonic observations ... well, as we got more wall pieces up, the 'acoustics' morphed. By the time the last piece, we could do, went in ... the room had become a quasi 'acoustic chamber'. Now that most all surfaces were reflective ... it was a smoother more coherent reverb. The room is LOUD. This was all expected. After shop vac & general straightening up ... had the jam box going. Decided I had to bring in the acoustic panels. I just set 8 of them against the walls. NO doubt to the effectiveness of the panels ... just placing them about the room made it much easier to be in there. Still plenty to do Finish screwing the 1st layer, caulking & pasting is next. :) Thanks for following along. :)Your inside corners and outside corners should look the same. The drywall guys are correct in what they are talking about, excepting that they are thinking in terms of one layer, which for you will be the final layer that you will use a taped / cornerbead or bull-nosed finish.
"in a highly isolated space, no one can hear you scream" :mrgreen:
hmm ... that was my back doing the screamin' :|
:mrgreen:
Today I went in with caulking & mud. I now realize that drywalling & finishing is NOT
my calling :oops:
Anyway ... all the perimeters have been sealed with caulk. I DO want to wait a few days
to make sure that the seal remains solid.
Tomorrow is a call-in for the next order of drywall to be delivered. I WILL be hiring my
substitute for the next round, as I'll be manning the spacer sticks & the Green Glue gun.
That's about all I'm good for at the moment :shock:
The HVAC guy is coming tomorrow afternoon to take care of a household issue ... we'll also
talk more on the room requirements. I STILL have NOT been able to locate a US distributor
[at least in my area] that has that mini-split with fresh air combined. JSayer had posted a
sticky on it ... appreciate any leads.
Call is going out to my door man. :roll: It's been too quite on that front. I need that area
framed out before we can do the required interlaced drywall. Should know more soon.
Anyway ... a couple of pix.
As u can see ... I HAD to stack the absorbers around the room. I'm SURE you know why :|
You also have evidence on why my brother took my spatula away from me. All he said was
'You're FIRED'. :roll:
I guess the silicon buzzz I had going may have been a contributing factor. That's my excuse
and I'm stickin' to it.
Thanks guys for being here ... I always look forward to your comments/critique and guidance.
Sincerely
RJHollins
If you have access to a compressor, you might want to consider getting a pneumatic caulking gun. They just make the whole thing so much easier! Believe me, I can't even do as well as you did with a manual gun, but with the pneumatic one, I almost look like a pro... (OK, maybe not quite.... ) - Stuart -You also have evidence on why my brother took my spatula away from me. All he said was 'You're FIRED'.
on the drywall side - you can use a 3M scrubber w/ handle (supermarket) and some warm water in a bucket to sand down the mud. just a bit of dampness and light scrubbing will smooth it down nice without a lot of dust and prep for a nice surface for the next (horizontal) layer of drywall...
on the HVAC - the unit John referred to only allows a supply but not return so you still need hole assuming you could find one. another option is the AeroPac which may be available via Canada (you're reasonably close...). barring that, i see some baffle box construction in your future to add a supply in the back and return up front.