UAN - new Control Room build

First ... A BIG welcomed HELLO to Stuart ! I've been following your recent post and am glad you are back here sharing your knowledge ! :D THANK-YOU! Glenn has taken the burden of hand walking me through the Control design & adventure :yahoo: Of course ... I read all the other build/design threads going on, hoping to learn a little more each step of the way. Well ... my Bro stopped over yesterday ... he was rechecking my work, and laugh when I told about being 'de-spatula'd'. He said he was only busting my chops, and that the mud work was fine. I only used the mud for the seams [the small putty knife I used made it more difficult than need be]. For the perimeters ... that was all caulking. I'm actually getting pretty good with that ... well heck ... I've gone through cases of the stuff .... so far :shock: Glenn, I do have one of those sanding sponges, and I will recheck those surfaces. I know that the picture really makes it look bad, but passing my hand over it is still rather smooth. I just want to be sure that it ALL is smooth before the next layer. Glenn, you mentioned horizontal next layer. That is EXACTLY the conversation question that my brother asked about [and is the way HE wanted to go]. MY big concern had more to do with the 'natural SLOPE' we have with the floor. Going horizontal means we will have up to 8' of slope to deal with [while keeping the side aligned with the studs]. We definitely want overlapping seams ... but I'd sure like to hear your thought again. I've called on the Daiken Saruru system. Can confirm that there are no US distributors :roll: I think you have seen my future .... :| My AC guys is supposed to come in tonite ... we will make a plan. And dang .... if some guys didn't drag more of this stuff in ... :shock: hmmm .... looks like a previous picture. well ... more stuff to do ... more 'Mineral Ice' for the back :shot:

:oops: Thanks for kind comments, RJ! :) :oops: Your build is looking pretty good! - Stuart -

horizontal. it may take a bit more cutting but it's where you need to go

horizontal. it may take a bit more cutting but it's where you need to go

Hi Glenn ! Thanks for the 'horizontal' confirmation. Your wish is our command! :D Judging from what you've taught ... I'll infer the same concept to the ceiling as well. 8) The next issue is the door. In particular, trying to find 'sheet lead'. I have been to several supplies from masonry to plumbing to the big box stores. I've talked with business 'friends' in the masonry business [as mentioned in Rods book], and they tell me they don't use it, and can't think of a reason they would need to :| About the closest material I did see was a roll of 16oz copper flashing. It DID have some density to it ... but I was told that it is only about a 1lb/sq ft. I have my doubts about copper, with its' sonic properties ... they make cymbals and bells from it [brass]. I have run out of most leads on this. I talk with a friend of mine who does work on cars, and he mentioned something like 'DynaMat'. Would this be a possible substitute :?: Another product is called 'FATMAT FLOOR LINER'. They posted the Transmission Loss data. http://www.fatmat.com/liners/floor/liner.html Thanks!

"and they tell me they don't use it, and can't think of a reason they would need to:" Installing terracotta tile roofing requires lead (plomo) for flashing. You locate a dealer of commercial grade roof covers and you should locate a supplier of lead used as flashing in an assortment of widths...none wide as a full door but a few layers placed side-by-side and glued will get you through this phase.

Thanks for the lead xSpace !! Why the guys who sell roofing materials said nothing .... :| I'll get this info to my brother right away ... he has several roofing subs. Thanks again.

A day of continued research, phone calls, & web search ... Primarily the door details ... had a very nice conversation with one of the Zero International reps. He was very generous with his insights & explanations. He also provided me contacts to local suppliers. :) The main focus was on the design/requirements and build integration. He also wanted to alert me to field experience findings when dealing with massive doors. Among them, being, the traffic level. Concerns on hinge mounts. He suggested looking at a 'pivot' mounting system. After citing several examples of potential problems of both wood & metal jambs. We talked about the 'lead-sheet' ... got a couple areas to check. Sealing: mentioned a couple of 'systems' for me to consider. Might be dropping the GM seal for one of the adjustable designs. Threshold: The 'guillotine' design MAY be the way to go. Just getting all this together. Much left still.

More research .... Getting some info back from my HVAC guy. I can honestly say that I know very little with regards to HVAC ... I'd like to post this info and get some feedback. They did a 'heat loss' and fresh air requirement for the Control Room [12'x16'x7]. Two possible components would be: 1. HRV is Fantech Model # SH704 http://fantech.net/download/403297-sh70 ... BaYVWyCUCA 2. the mini-split ac unit is EMI KWCA09A0, The mini-split provides 9000btu's of cooling. So any mini-split we choose just needs to be 9000btu's for proper cooling. http://www.lafayetteheating.com/pdf/duc ... ctless.pdf This is some preliminary info with specs that I found and linked. The NOISE level of the internal unit seems rather HIGH :roll: ... also, the SEER rating looks very low :? But like he says ... we have other choices for 9k btu units. As mentioned before ... I'm a gonna need some guidance here ........ as usual :shock: Thanks!!!!

the HRV would be external to your room and manage the air exchange, the split unit would have the cooling and fan unit inside your room to cool/heat it. another option, using a concealed duct unit so the air/heat/cooling are all done via ducts so the penetration you make for the air does all of the work.

Thank-you Glenn ... gonna pass info to HVAC guy. Well ... lot going on. Yesterday was out on research mission on the door system. Have a local dealer that has the needed parts, INCLUDING the sheet-lead. They do commercial installs for hospitals, dentists, etc ... so have lead sheets available. We also talked over the pivot hinges [which seems to be a good way to go]. Also looked at a selection of automatic door closers, and commercial seals. This morning, the drywall crew came in :) I broke out a couple cases of Green Glue, and a box of 2-1/2" screws ... and we went to town. As instructed, use of the thick paint sticks provided the perimeter spacers. To NOTE: we DID the layout in the 'opposite' direction, and all seams were overlapped as Glenn had instructed. I had also requested an additional crew member for this second layer install. Worked out great ! We 'test fit' each piece ... then laid them down for the 2 tubes per sheet of GG. I tacked in the initial placement, and they finished off the schedule of 12" [GG says we had a 15 min window to work in] ... Pictures are coming, but I must say that this round went very smooth, and nobody got hurt ! We did take time to talk about the sonic changes that have transpired. Of course, it sounds like an echo chamber in there ... We called it a day [few hours] with the ceiling done. I want to go in and caulk the new install BEFORE we hit the second wall layer. When the wall perimeters are caulked, I'll feel more confidence have the 'final gaps' properly sealed. Everything went great, and am very happy to get this part done. :yahoo: Walls are next, ... door to follow. Research on-going :) Getting the placed vac'd up, will post pix tonite. Thanks again for your continued guidance and insights !!!!!!!! Sincerely.

"As instructed, use of the thick paint sticks provided the perimeter spacers." What does this statement mean?

xSpace wrote:

"As instructed, use of the thick paint sticks provided the perimeter spacers." What does this statement mean?

Hi Brien, We used 1/4" paint stir sticks taped to the perimeter edges to maintain offset. Got a few pixs: Layout out the board for the ceilings' second layer. After a test fit ... we applied 2 GG tubes/ 4x8 sheet. Using our 1/4" paint sticks taped to the wall at strategic location, we then full schedule screwed drywall with 2-1/2" coarse @ 12". Because we had dual ceiling joist per 'beam', the first layer was screwed to one side, while this 2nd layer was screwed to the 'other' side. Tonite I went in after clean-up, and added some 3/8" backer rod, and then caulk sealed all the ceiling perimeters [no pix of that part yet]. Once it drys, I can triple check seal before we start the 2nd wall layer using the same offset and GG procedure. I must say, with where we have the current construction at, the level of isolation has been quite surprising. Although no measurements, the sound of the shop vac in the upstairs parlor can only be heard coming from the kitchen area ... and even then it goes into the background. As for the downstairs family room [1/2 level up and adjacent to basement], the vac can NOT be heard :shock: We only have insulation placed in on the outer wall, and a 5 foot gap where the door is to be framed. Foot steps from above have been dramatically reduced to a distant 'thud' [not a very good descript], and mainly heard from the kitchen area bleeding through the open door section. I know we have much more to do ... but it is very encouraging! AND they say that GG takes some 30 days to cure to a level of full effectiveness. Anyway ... just wanted to share some pixs & observations! THANKS!

Trouble report .... :evil: OK ... went through the caulking procedure of ceiling perimeter. Further inspection showed a couple of screw holes from MISSing the ceiling joist :shock: :evil: Now before I attempt to plug the screw hole, I wanted the Experts' instruction to fix. [especially before I do something stupid] This IS the final ceiling layer. Do I try to pack something in the hole? Put the screw back in ? Mud ? Caulk ? It sure is tough to build 'air tight' :|

"We used 1/4" paint stir sticks taped to the perimeter edges to maintain offset." Very clever you :) Good idea! You can either stick the screw back in of apply your acoustic caulk into the hole and then mud over the hole from the missed joist screw.

ah ... Thank-you xSpace ! Really hated to have mess-ups like that, but it seems all too easy to get disorientated. :oops: Not sure I can keep the screw in while maintaining a countersink ... if not, I go the caulked hole & mud procedure. BTW ... don't tell Glenn ... if he see's me messin' up his design ... well ... you know ... he'll be ticked :evil: :cop: On the progress front ... Had the boys in for a very short time today. Started the 2nd layer drywall ON the walls. The usual 2 tubes on GG went on the, now, horizontal install. Got about 1/2 of the walls done. Looking to get together Thursday to complete this layer UP to where we can to the door area. As for the door, well, we only have the basic materials lined up. I need to talk with the carpenter about the hanging system. The debate between HD hinges, or going with the Pivot hinge design [which is the way I'm being 'swayed' to. --- no pun intended] Today I also received my quote from the HVAC guy :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: oh my :roll: Once I can go back and read the email I'll look up the units and check out the spec sheet. At this point, let us just say that this 'aspect' of the project constitutes a chunk of $$$. All the news that's fit to print! A 'way to early in the morning' rehearsal scheduled for ... the morning :| Thanks again! Slowly coming together! Time to hit that 'DONATE' button :D Sincerely

Progress report. Yesterday the 'crew' was back in on the 2nd drywall layer ! Because the basement floor has a slope to it ... we needed a strategy for applying this 2nd layer in the long, horizontal direction. Since the wall to ceiling provided the best 'square', the decision was to mount sheets starting from the top of the wall. Once GG'd and gapped from the ceiling, they were full schedule screwed using 2-1/2" coarse. When it got to the lower section, we measured off the varied distance from the bottom of the 2nd layer down to the offset 'paint sticks' on the floor. The idea was to RAISE the bottom piece in place. To aid in this [seemingly backward] approach, it was MY given mission to locate [and buy] 'drywall lifts'. And here they be: I must say ... these saved MANY a finger nail, and possibly a few fingers in the process! :yahoo: These lifts may also come in handy for the NEXT part of construction. Today I had to make purchase decisions for the studio door. With the carpenter gathering the solid core door & jamb materials, I needed to get hardware & beef-up. After much reading here, along with phone calls to reps ... and talking with firms that actually use this stuff! I purchased the STANLEY FBB199-32D Heavy-duty, 5 knuckle hinges. I got the 3 pack ... stainless steel ... satin finish :wink: I've been told by 2 local reps that these will do the job ... and THEN some. They were fully aware of the design intent and weight. They look and feel pretty solid ... and these bad boyz aren't cheap ! :shock: But , hey ... this'll be a heck of a door, and functionality AND safety is a must 8) I then went to the metal supply company that the commercial door company hooked me up with. A rather 'nice' lady working there invited me in to here what trouble I was up too :twisted: She took a sincere interest in what I was needing to do, and said they have the material I need ... and can supply it either as a full sheet, or cut into strips! cool. For a 3'x7' door ... 21 sq-ft. There is an OBVIOUS construction concern with this door. NOT so much building it, as it is, INSTALLING it ! :shock: The other MAIN factor is the isolation performance. Again ... decision. I know that Rod recommends 8 lbs/sq-ft ... however ... the material I can get is 4 lbs/sq-ft. So the decision is to go with a layer of this ... and IF need be ... we 'could' add another layer. The door hinges were spec'd to more than handle the larger weight. So ... we'll see how this plays out. Later tonite I'm going to continue backer rod and caulking perimeters of the new install. Thanks everyone !!! Sincerely

One option is to assemble the door in place. Get the core hung and then add the mass layers. MadMax took this approach on his studio build since each door ended up being 600+ pounds... Even a 300-400lb door will be a challenge to stand up while attaching the hinges.

gullfo wrote:

One option is to assemble the door in place. Get the core hung and then add the mass layers. MadMax took this approach on his studio build since each door ended up being 600+ pounds... Even a 300-400lb door will be a challenge to stand up while attaching the hinges.

Hi Glenn ... I do appreciate the words of wisdom ! [and the heads-up on MadMax build]. I've relay'd your message to my carpenter. Basically, I need to get the basic door and frame located and installed so that we can complete the framing of the 2 walls. We have the top area [above the door] drywalled [small piece], in order to maintain the 'interlock' of the drywall layers. I've also located a supply of 'homosote' [what the heck kind of a name is that] ... FINALLY back at my lumber supplier ... had a whole stack of 1/2" 4x8 sheets. I HOPE that the 1/2" is acceptable as a 'buffer' between the door jamb and the framing ??? [as the perpetual reminder that every fraction of an inch is most welcome ... d*mn low ceilings ... but that's all we got. :| As for the list of other things too do ... still looking at the HVAC and venting issue. Been going through the various threads here, reading up on 'silencer' designs... while at the same time trying to reason out the best placement for them. Once that door goes in ... the next thing will be getting electrical into the room [concerned that this door is NO match for an extension cord] :roll: meanwhile ... I've got caulking in all the perimeter seams, and even took another shot at 'mudding' the screw heads and joining seams. [I did NOT touch the areas where caulk is]. Obviously ... there will be a question or three when it comes time to mud,tape, and corner beads .... :wink: As may be seen ... my 'mudding' skills have not not yet PEAKED :shot: A coupla pix ... and YES ... these are NOT the old ones from the first layer ... Here's the wall ceiling GAP ... And a shot from outside the door area to the front part of the room ... the acoustic panels go into the room as SOON as possible ... just so I can stand being in there :D Well ... early AM rehersal for another important gig ... Hoping this week a door is in place :mrgreen: Thanks again! Sincerely ---- EDIT --- Ahh ... got a question installing this homosote boarder around the jamb. :?: :? Looking at p. 107 in Rods' book [2nd ed] ... Am I mis-reading this ?!?! Does he want the homosote ONLY on the SIDES on the jamb? Or are we supposed to also do the TOP of the jamb where it meets the framing ??? It's not clear from the illustration ... and I find no mention in his test [unless I missed it], but it would seem 'strange' to NOT isolate the top portion ... but I don't know :? Too this point ... I'm also NOT sure how to approach installing this? From what I gather, this homosote is NOT the most durable product, so it would seem that trying to slide a piece into the gap could be quite messy. I'm thinking that I could spray adhesive onto the jamb OR the framing, and try to guide the [quite heavy] door WITH jamb into place ... but ... Sure could use some 'words of wisdom' here ... or better yet ... Step By Step instructions :D As mentioned ... I currently have a reserved section on the side wall for the door. We have not YET cut the floor plates [both walls] where the threshold would be. There is no framing [kings, jacks, etc] yet. During all this, I am also trying to maintain an 'open door' spacing from the 'kick-out' walls so that SHOULD I be installing an acoustic panel [offset 4" ???] on the door, that the door can be opened [at least] 90*.

"To aid in this [seemingly backward] approach, it was MY given mission to locate [and buy] 'drywall lifts'. And here they be:" Seems like you must be doing something correct, if you located a tool that already existed, the drywall tradesmen use to do...well, the very same thing. :)

xSpace wrote:

Seems like you must be doing something correct, if you located a tool that already existed, the drywall tradesmen use to do...well, the very same thing. :)

:lol: Yeah ... I wasn't sure. One of the initiations for the new production assistant was to send him out for a 'cable stretcher'. :twisted: anyway ... Today took delivery of the 4'x8'x 1/2" Homosote. It is more 'solid' than I first thought, although I bet it can get banged up without much effort. With this in mind ... the plan is to install it to both sides AND the top of the jamb where it all contacts the framing. STILL have a question :?: Should the homosote end flush to the width of the jamb, or do I need to recess it and THEN caulk out the difference :?: Thanks!!! Ahhh ... that time of the month ... hit the DONATE button :D Sincerely

you're using the Homasote to fill in the gap between the jamb and frame? i think you need to put caulk on either side (butter it) and since you're going to trim around it, flush should be OK.

gullfo wrote:

you're using the Homasote to fill in the gap between the jamb and frame? i think you need to put caulk on either side (butter it) and since you're going to trim around it, flush should be OK.

Hi Glenn ! Always good to hear from you ! :yahoo: Homasote ... that's what I THOUGHT we were supposed to use ?!?!? IF that is correct ?!? Then we'll also do the 'butter' technique. :wink: If NOT ... the only other material that I've been able to locate would be using some of those 1/2" 2'x4' drop ceiling panels. The kind that have a white 'plastic-y' face that is glued to some 1/2" rigid [yellow] fiberglass. I would try to peel the 'facing' off and use the fiberglass. I can't believe how difficult it is to find rigid fiberglass supplies. Places around here are not stocking it. What would you have me do ... to do this correctly [of course]. Always .... Big THANKS!!!

Push insulation into the jamb area in question. You are trying to keep the wall assembly consistent through out the entire build. Thing is...most doors in a high isolated environment will not have gaps between the jamb and framing since the WEIGHT of the door will modulate the framing and negate any space.

OK ... I hope that I'm not getting confused here :? First ... Glenn, you put a ? mark at the mention of using Homasote to surround the outer jamb. I thought I had read from one of the other builds that this was the way to go. If this is a mistake, or YOU are not wanting me to use this ... I need to know your concern and recommendation. As you [and others] have informed, the door is a critical [weak link] candidate. I need to be certain that what we build is within required specs! Here's a basic pic of the door. From want I understand ... 1. we are to surround the outer top, & 2 sides of the jamb. the jamb will span the depth of the inner & outer frame walls. Caulk will be sandwiched between the jamb & homasote. 2. The inner & outer framed walls STILL need to have 2x4's installed to mount the jamb. No doubt, the 'hinge side' will have several studs [on both walls] to maximize the jamb stability. 2b. Since we're 'buttering' ... the connection of the homasote to the 2 walls will also be a caulk sandwich. What I have now: Looking down at the floor ... we have the 2 floor plates ... as yet uncut IGNORE the work light on the left side of the opening :| From INSIDE the control room, here is a view of the 2 walls on LEFT side. Next is view of the RIGHT side walls. As seen ... we have left this area wide open for framing. Once the EXACT door location is determined ... I need to install anchor bolts into both plates, on either side of the door jamb. OK ... Now 'xSpace' ... You are bringing to my attention a concern ... and I AM concerned, 'cause I don't quite understand your instruction. :? You said, "not have gaps between the jamb and framing". And 'stuff insulation into the jamb'. Maybe you're just reminding me ... OR ... you are correcting me ... not sure. [sorry] The 'plan' was for this homasote to actually be a 'sandwich' between the jamb and the wall framing. With the weight of this door ... I figure that a minimum of 3", COARSE screws would be used THROUGH the jamb ... into the wall studs [both]. I also thought that [at least] SOME of the hinge screws would ALSO penetrate deep into the studs. A concern would be NOT splitting the jamb NOR the studs !!! :shock: The insulation part ... again ... I'm not understanding ... please help on this. hmmm .... hope I'm not messing up ... wait till you hear my thoughts on mounting this lead sheet, and 1" plywood to this door :shot: It involves 'countersunk' bolts ... about 6 of them ... 1/4" :idea: :?: Drilling HOLES through the solid core door, thru the lead sheet, AND the plywood. then using some type of round 'plugs' to cover the countersunk nuts. "countersunk nuts" ... wait ... I think I recorded that band. :| Now you KNOW I really need help. T H A N K Y O U ...............