Control Room Drawing - Need Door Info

Here is a drawing of my control room. The vocal-booth is isolated from the control room. The control room has it's own walls (within the basement walls). I assume everything is isolated properly. With that, I'm wondering if I need to install two doors in every opening? Where there are "double-walls" (with a 3" air-gap) - do I have to hang a door on each wall? Can someone tell me the "proper" way to do this? Here are some "REAL" pix of my progress: (In the pix) - some of the walls in the Vocal-Botth are NOT done "yet" - even though the drawing shows it. http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1301.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1302.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1303.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1304.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1305.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1306.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1307.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1308.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1309.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1310.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1311.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1312.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1313.jpg http://www.bradjacob.com/images/IMG_1314.jpg

I'm seeing so far just single frames for the vox booth; are these 20 ga. or 25 ga. studs, and what's your plan for windows? Ideally, all construction would be double frames as well as windows, doors, floors, etc, so you had a complete mass-air-mass envelope between everything and everything ELSE - this isn't practical for smaller rooms if you're at all cramped for space in the first place. If you have separate frames, you should also have separate doors or it's a waste of space and money. For the booth, probably the best you can do is a good solid core exterior door (frame beefed up to support the weight) and good seals (like Zero International, about $250 for a seal kit) For your double walls, any doors should be ALSO double so you maintain your decoupled mass-air-mass envelope. Less will get you the chance to hear your drums BOTH ways - thru the wall, AND thru the mics (yecchhh...) Sorry for the short answer, I'll (hopefully) get more time tonight, AFTER some of the "Gators go to sleep... Steve

I'm seeing double frames in this photo, but the double frames appear to be fused together with horizontal pieces in the window frame. :shock: Flank flank flank flank flank

Damn, I KNEW I shoulda checked ALL the pix, good catch; sooo, WTF is that about? are those cross-pieces somehow rubber mounted, or what? Seriously, we need to discuss this BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER... Steve

Steve (and everyone else), Yeah, I connected the two walls - and I'm sorry! (LOL). Will this really transfer the sound - and should I remove them? For the vocal-booth, I'm not done (ran out of metal) - so that's why there is not double walls on every wall in the booth. The back wall of the voc-booth is the "stairs" wall. I know I need rock on the side that faces into the stairs, but what about the other side - being that there will be another wall up against it - couldn't hurt to rock both sides, right? For the doors - so I guess I'll need to get a door for each wall. Was in Lowe's last night and saw some pre-hung SOLID-Pine doors (with no holes cut in them). Will this be ok - with proper sealing?

Steve, FIRST OFF - I corrected the "dead" links. I had a type-o in the last couple picture links... :oops: :roll: Here's a little bit on my plans for the studio: After I get the metal framed out (and braces removed!) - I will then run the electric and XLR panels in the walls. No two outlets will be directly behind the other. Then, I'll stuff mineral wool insulation into the walls. Next, I'll caulk all the track-to-concrete connections. After that, comes the double-layer rock. Then, I'll frame out the RC on the ceiling joists - followed by the same - m.w. insulation and double layer of rock. After that, I'll caulk all the wall-ceiling seems. Then come spackle(3 layers & sanded) then paint.. Doors will then be installed and *properly* sealed off. Finally, the wood will be installed in the window frame and the glass will be set. (much reading-up on that topic) What do you think? Any "wrong-directions" I may be goig down? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. (and I'll keep posting my progress pix)

Will this really transfer the sound - and should I remove them?

Yes and YES! Re-read Steve's last post and act accordingly! Trying to save you money and heartache: Andre

Quick enough fix - thank God for tech-screws ! Any info on my other questions?

Now that I think about the bracing of two walls with small pieces of track, I have this question: Won't it be the same thing when I sheetrock and eventually line the inside of the window opening with wood? I mean, with the sheetrock and wood lining the window, what difference would there be if there is 1/2" of thin metal is touching the two walls underneath?

Double framed walls should be separate EVERYWHERE possible, obviously they have to both rest on the floor but if floors are floated then even that isn't a common point. Do NOT put a 1-piece window frame in there, or you may as well remove one of the frames and gain some usable floor space. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... indows.htm Only diff is, your SEPARATE wood window frames would attach to the steel instead of more wood. Don't worry about angling the glass except for redirection of early reflections at the mix position; flutter echo off the glass will likely be solved by rear absorption in a small room anyway. Only other reason to splay the glasses is visual glare, which can be controlled with lighting position - After I get the metal framed out (and braces removed!) - I will then run the electric and XLR panels in the walls. No two outlets will be directly behind the other. Not just behind each other, but not in the same stud cavity. Then, I'll stuff mineral wool insulation into the walls. Amen. Next, I'll caulk all the track-to-concrete connections Not necessary; that seal will happen when caulking the perimeters of each layer of drywall. However, please tell me that's sill seal or some sort of Thermal Break material between your tracks and the concrete slab... After that, comes the double-layer rock. Have you read about alternating direction of layers, using spacers around perimeters, half-schedule fastening except for final layers, mud/tape of all bevels for under layers, etc, mostly at the REFERENCE set of links? Then, I'll frame out the RC on the ceiling joists - followed by the same - m.w. insulation and double layer of rock. Use "Z" system sequence - layers should be ceiling/wall/ceiling/wall for tightest construction, and walls should be done opposing pairs first, then the OTHER opposing pair, then ceiling second layer, then FIRST opposing pair, then LAST opposing pair - this will give a staggered joint, each layer caulked as you go, using acoustic rated (NOT LePages, or anything that's black and gooey) caulk. After that, I'll caulk all the wall-ceiling seems. Then come spackle(3 layers & sanded) then paint.. See my comments above for the order of these, except for finish. Doors will then be installed and *properly* sealed off. On your double walls, separate DE-COUPLED doors will help maintain best iso. Finally, the wood will be installed in the window frame and the glass will be set. (much reading-up on that topic) Some help on that above. I don't have a link to it, but there was an experiment done some time back where a completely floated, masonry double walled room was tested (something like 6" solid concrete walls with several inches air gap) - they actually fired a 9mm handgun into a bullet trap and couldn't hear it outside. Then, a small hole was core-drilled through ONE of the concrete walls, a small wood dowel was wedged between inner and outer concrete, and the hole filled with concrete again; Normal conversation within the room was audible outside. The hole was re-drilled, the dowel removed, and the hole again patched with concrete - No conversation heard, no pistol shot heard... Glad you're removing the braces - if need be, the tops can be braced together using RESILIENT sway bracing - check about page 17 or so of Aaron's floating floor thread for some on that, also Mason Industries, Kineticsnoise.com The back wall of the voc-booth is the "stairs" wall. I know I need rock on the side that faces into the stairs, but what about the other side - being that there will be another wall up against it - couldn't hurt to rock both sides, right? Be really careful here; it's sometimes hard to tell from pix or explanations, but you ALWAYS want TWO, and ONLY TWO, areas of (de-coupled) mass (separated with air/insulation) between where there is sound and where you do NOT want sound. So pretend to be a sound, and "try"(in your mind) to get from one area to another; if you have to go through some wallboard, then some air/insulation, then some wallboard, and (assuming you didn't get too tired :=) you are now weaker but where you wanted to be, then that is the right construction. Adding another mass (with its attending air gap) is NOT a "couldn't hurt" situation; it can worsen your LF isolation by as much as 20+ dB. That's the diff between being able to play drums at 2 AM and having your spouse get pissed because they can't watch TV for the noise. For the doors - so I guess I'll need to get a door for each wall. Was in Lowe's last night and saw some pre-hung SOLID-Pine doors (with no holes cut in them). Will this be ok - with proper sealing? Yes, those should work good. If the prehung thing includes a threshold and it's an aluminum extrusion, be sure to also buy a bucket of Plumber's Putty, and FILL ANY VOIDS in the extrusion before installing - or, you could change the threshold to something like my sketch in Hugo's recent post, http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3293 Think that's everything for now... Steve

Steve, Thanks for all that - I really appreciate it. I was very impressed with the "Z" method for rocking! :D Here's a major "oops": :oops: There is nothing (sill-seal or thermal break) between my metal track and the concrete. What can I expect? :cry: Ok, I got the idea for the glass - NO connections or solid wood. I'll get those braces removed right away. One question about that though... Reading the SAE website, I saw their method for glass installation. They say to use cork or rubber for the glass to sit on. My glass will be over 100 pounds - won't that crush cork over a short time period? And if rubber is used, what kinds would you recommend? And how does one get a huge piece of glass to slip inside an opening lined with strips of hard rubber? It seems like it would be very difficult to get it in place. Any insight on this glass *mounting* proccess??

You may get some corrosion from sweating between concrete and the bottom channel. Even galvanized steel can corrode if it's constantly being wetted/dried. If your concrete doesn't seem to sweat (tape some plastic wrap against a square of it somewhere out of the way, and check it early the next day; no moisture, probably no problem) Even so, since these tracks are generally cut on site there will be areas with no galvanizing; one way to handle this is to spray the bottom foot or so of your frames all around with Zinc Chromate primer (good for aluminum and galvanized stuff) before the wallboard goes on. Here's more on that - http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... novate.pdf Specifically pages 35-6-7, but the whole thing is very valuable info. Windows - I just answered this in a PM, knew I shoulda posted it too - Yeah, that large a glass will be heavy and would tend to exceed compression recommendations - if you go with higher duro rating, you would just need to use a good silicone seal (like GE Silicone II) to get a good hermetic seal. Let the rubber support the glass. If you need to remove the glass in future, there's always razor knives. Another option is the high duro stuff under, and lower density held against the glass with the outer cleats/screws, for easier removal. (and a good seal) Be sure to clean the glass first, handle only with clean cotton gloves, add some packets of silica gel for moisture, and if a double frame wall do NOT bridge frames with anything more solid than Celotex; DO allow the between-pane space to vent into the wall cavity/insulation... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Let the rubber support the glass. If you need to remove the glass in future, there's always razor knives. Another option is the high duro stuff under, and lower density held against the glass with the outer cleats/screws, for easier removal. (and a good seal)

Yes, but *how* do we get the glass to fit in the embrace of four sides of rubber?

See if this helps -

Oh, it does! Thanks Steve.

OK, I'm having an argument with myself. I'm building a window that looks just like this one. I build the sides of the frame just like the top and the bottom right? Then when I sheetrock do I leave some rock overhanging the window itself a bit and caulk it shut? Thanks. Tim

Tim, sorry; phase three - for the sides, use the same setback for the studs that abut the window frame so you have a ledge to fasten the wallboard to - I didn't show the molding on the other side but it's there... Steve

Steve, sticky this under "how to build a window" please!! Great easy to under stand info even if its imperial!! JG

Done - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15622 Listed under Installing a Double Window (right below installing a door)

Steve, Great detail drawing for how to construct double-wall windows. I know that it's great to support the glass with solid wood all the way down to the floor, but is it absolutely necessary? Is there a safe way using the same wall width to push the panes of glass farther apart for slightly greater TL? What if you use deeper bottom and top plates, say 2x8s instead of 2x6, and you reinforce the 2x8s with a parallel 2x4 immediately below each one (and above the top plate), and use a sufficient number of screws. How much farther apart would you be willing to push the two panes of glass? I would think it would be safe to push these two panes maybe another 2-1/2" apart (so that the face of the glass is flush with the face of the wall). What do you think? Lee

Lee, by that do you mean that, effectively, the top 3-1/2" below the sill would be a 2x4 instead of multi-layer drywall? I'm sure you could cantilever the sill somewhat, but that would also depend on how thick/heavy your glass is; for a larger window, I'd wanna know what kind of forces were bearing on the sill before I'd try that... Steve

Steve, That's not what I meant, but you gave me an idea. How about this instead, a double 2x8 sill, trimmed down so that the face of the glass is flush with the face layer of drywall, plus enough room for the spong seal, stop, and trim. Let's see, that's 3-1/2 + 5/8 + 5/8 + 1/4 + 3/4 + 3/4 = 6-1/2": I would also want to use metal corner brackets to reinforce the framing at the point where the the lower 2x8 meets its 2x4 vertical stud supports. In this case the glass would be 1/2" laminated, about 36" x48". A couple weeks ago I was at the Frank Lloyd Wright's Robie House in Chicago, where the roof overhangs the 2nd story patio by what may have been 20 feet: Lee

Ok, Ive been reading alot of great info on this site and want to give a some of this construction thing a try by installing a window between my control room and tracking room. Hope I dont sound too nooby for everyone. Let me just mention that I love this site so far, so much great information. I have attached a JPEG of my rooms, hope it posts well as this is my first post. First my rooms. These are two spare bedrooms in my home with 8' ceilings. I have been using them to record but it is such a problem to not be able to see through the wall between the control room and tracking room. My friends feel isolated and lost. I need a window. I have read plenty here and other sites about double pane studio windows and want to give it a try even though I do not have the soundproofing that most have with double walls, nor do I have great dimensions or size or angles of the rooms. should I just give up this crazy idea of having a studio in these rooms? I do at least have some acoustical treatment in the rooms, although I have taken down my first try of placement(basically I thought I could cover 2 walls completly with DST 114's from aurlex and add come aurlex bass traps and have a great sounding room). Boy was I wrong and now have taken my poor placement from the walls and plan to address my acoustic problems with either some DIY bass traps or possibly some from real traps in combination with these mostly high frequency absorbers. this is another discussion, but wanted to give background so I dont get slammed or kicked off by nightfly. :) Questions: Do I need double pane glass even though I only have a single wall? My plan has been to put two panes of 1/4 glass as shown here and other sites except that i will not have 2 walls with a nice airspace between, I only will have a small airspace between the two panes of glass. I do realize that two 1/4 panes(different thicknesses are better from what I have read) and a single wall are not exactly ideal, but I need to see through this wall if I ever plan to keep recording in these rooms. I was thinking of using 1x6s of fine grade pine or poplar that would actually house the glass, but build a header and footer of 2 2x6s with 1/2 in drywall between that would connect to the studs of the wall. wish I had pics, but I hope I am being clear. My thinking here is that althought the 1x6s would not be flush against my existing drywall, the actual panes of glass would be close to the existing drywall if I use a 3 in space, and I may even add another layer of drywall to the existing to try to attenuate the noise between rooms even if it is just a little. Any benefit in adding the extra layer of drywall on both sides of this single wall? I must also say that I have my cables running through a small hole so that I dont have to run cables out the door, but again I understand that this will compromise the small amount of isolation I have between the band and myself. this does make it difficult to hear the sound through my monitors as it truely sounds, because of the lack of isolation. At least my computers are out of the way and I can record vocals in the control room. I spoke with a friend about possibly doing this and he tried to tell me how difficult this will be to do, mainly being able to calculate my starting point to be sure I will end up with the proper opening for the glass, and that it will be very difficult to keep the inner frame exactly square and level for my glass to not only look right, but for it to even fit in my opening. I plan to use the 1/4 glass because I can get one 8x3 or 7x3 piece and cut it in half for much cheaper than I can get two different thicknesses of 4x3 or 3 1/2x3 glass. budget is always a concern. this is a small opening but again, I have small rooms. are the two panes of 1/4 laminated glass doomed to resonate so much that my mics will notice? anyone know the difference oak, poplar and pine will give me in performance? I already know the price differences. I am sure I have more questions but will take a listen to what you guys have to say. Thanks for having this forum available for all of us, greatly appreciated.

I am sorry that I already screwed this up with the size of my JPEG. I am not really sure how to fix this problem and apoligize for being a noob.

ok, here is my room resized. Hope you can still get the idea.