Mike Vale Studio

Mike Vale wrote:

Hey guys. When we finished with building, the constructor measure everything with the laser. So the exact measures are 646cm x 496cm x 334 cm which brings 1 : 1.49 : 1.93 and I don't bother with that actualy :) We will do our best with inner acoustics and the graphs will tell what we achive. NenPatkovic sorry because I didn't tell you the exact dimensions :lol:

Now I am pissed, you must raport everything immediately!!! But I will survive :lol: And one thing is also relieving, volume of the room.

Deam, ohhh my god we forgot!!!

I'm not quite sure what that comment was supposed to mean, but I'll put it down to language Barrier, and let it slide... The only thing I see in that post you linked to is this: "... and we use sealant between all layers ..." Green Glue is not sealant. That's why I asked. So what exactly are you using? What is the product called, and do you have a link to the technical specs? It sounds very interesting.

GG is very known old principle but with first-class advertising.

Well, if it is such an "old" principle, then how come no other company makes anything even close? And if the merit of the product is only in their advertising, how come they publish the results of all the tests done by independent laboratories, whereas their competitors don't? And how come experts in acoustics and studio construction, such as John and Rod, are adamant that there is nothing else like it?

It is based on latex polymer. Also this damping glue is very, very, very similar.

That's strange, because Green Glue isn't really glue at all. It's just a name. So if you are comparing it to glue, then that makes me wonder....

When we compare each other, we cant tell the difference between them in "blind test" 8)

So you did the exact same set of tests that Green Glue company did with third party independent acoustic laboratories, and got the same results? Would you care to share your test results here? If there is a better product, or even one that gets the same results at a better price, them I'm interested, for sure!

All joints, all surfaces, all everything are taping / mudding / sealing / caulking with this damping adhesive.

Well, once again, this is very strange because Green Glue is not a sealant, and neither is it an adhesive. So if the product that you are using also seals and is also adhesive, then I'd sure love to find out more about it! And especially seeing that, form the photo, you are using a very, very low coverage on your panels. Nothing at all like Green Glue recommends with theirs. So what you are saying is that the product you are using is as good as Green Glue, but that unlike Green Glue it is also adhesive, it is also a sealant, and can be used with much, much lower coverage, to get the exact same effect? Is that about right? If so, I'd really like to get some for my build: Where do I buy it, and how much does it cost! I'm also confused about your claim that you taped, caulked and mudded the joints, because I don't see any tape, any caulk, or any mud in those photos. What I see is one layer of particle board going up directly over a layer of un-caulked, un-sealed, un-taped gypsum board, then another layer of gypsum board going up on top of that. Even if you did use that "damping adhesive", I don't see how it is going to give you hermetic seal, give the very thin coverage you use.

btw: Well it is not fair, what if we really dont know about that solution before building, why you are telling it now?

Well, it's not exactly a secret! As you say, Green Glue is an "old principle", as is taping and mudding drywall! The information has been available here for years, as bast as I can tell. If you are a world-leading acoustician, with years of experience and dozens of studios built, but you aren't aware of common studio construction techniques that have been around for years and are highly recommended by experts, then that's not our fault, is it? :) - Stuart -

What "language Barrier", I was only amusing, I hope? :) My answer mention about glue and adhesive and damping yes: http://www.greengluecompany.com/greenGlueDatasheet.php http://www.greengluecompany.com/greenGlue-msds.php Mike said "... and we use sealant between all layers ..." . Sue him :twisted: Yes this "Green Glue" damping glue adhesive (read informations behind links) is not alone with similar specifications and characteristics. I hope you did not believe that. "...do you have a link to the technical specs": try to find similar in your country and we will post link with this product! In GG product information you get enough guidelines for little research... few phone talks with different factories... Second question: try earlier described. Third question: do you read information on the GGC site (links in preface of post)? 4th: well it is not nuclear physics, sorry! Contest is unnecessary :roll: 5th: that was yours quotation; "...taping / mudding / sealing / caulking..." and please stop with this sealant thing. "coverage on your panels": believe, this was only the beggining... Mike have hands "coloured in red"... now he is the real men:) If you are a builder with little advance konowledge you know what is standard. Yes photos are maybe not that detailed. Mike what do you doing in meantime!??? :evil: 6th: no I am not a leading world acoustician nor I want to be... or maybe I want, then I never ever go in this sharade/ charade :wink: Informations indeed are on i-net for couple of years but not in specialists surroundings. And yes; if you do not have a advance knowledge in building then might to be similar to teleportation system at first glance... Dont be so angry and negative.

I think it is a fine looking job. Glad you guys took a few minutes to consider your room ratios and all the other details, even if they may not have made it to the picture show ;)

Thanks xSpace :wink:

Sorry, but I hardly understand a word of your last post. In any event, I get the impression that you didn't actually come here to learn from the world-renowned experts on this forum (like most people did, including me), nor did you come here for free friendly advice and help with your build, from a world-wide group of people who have already built studios, are currently building studios, or are about to build studios. Rather, from your answers and attitude, it seems that you only came here to post your photos of what you already did, and tell us how fantastic it is, even when much of it flies in the face of the expert advice that you can easily find all over this forum, as well as in Rod's book, and on the web sites of respected professional members here, such as Ethan and John, who really do know what they are doing. And when many expert members here have politely asked you about what they clearly consider to be questionable practices, or even outright errors, you have never actually explained the acoustic theory behind them, nor even why you think they work, and only said that everything is OK because you have been building studios for 15 years. . . . (Don't look now, but I think Rod has you beat on that front). I mean, come on! You didn't even know your room ratio until someone asked you and the guy building it went out and measured it! You are using insulation that is way too dense without any discernible gas flow benefits, you have not taped and sealed your leaves and clearly don't even think it is important (telling me to shut up when I keep on asking why you didn't do it), you think Green Glue is just worthless hype and that plain old caulk or panel adhesive is just as good, you refuse to identify the product that you actually used despite having made wild and unreasonable claims for it, you refuse to post the results of the tests that you claim you did on it that proved it to be as good as Green Glue, you put neoprene rubber foam on your studs for no useful reason, you have your inner leaf wall in contact with your outer leaf ceiling through some type of foam that is probably flanking, you don't seem to have adequately decoupled your inner ceiling frame from your outer ceiling, you sandwiched particle board between layers of sheetrock which has no discernible benefit, you have used different thickness sheetrock which has no discernible benefit, you put armaflex underneath the drywall which has no discernible benefit, you think density is more important than volume for dealing low frequency absorption, you practically floated your floor, and you did "float" your walls, without ever asking Ro's question about your compression calculations! And we are supposed to just accept that on your word alone? In other words, you seem to have ignored practically all the good advice here, generated over many years, about what works and what doesn't, about how to optimize, about where to save money, etc. You have also ignored the rather pointed but polite questions posted by folks here who really do know what they are doing (plus me, who doesn't), and instead of asking why or showing concern that maybe you screwed up, you have just glossed over it all and tried to justify it, but with not one real solid reason! And you just expect everyone here to take your word for it, that it is all OK and fine, since you've been doing it that way for 15 years? Give me a break! Fortunately, your construction is so damned massive that it will probably isolate well anyway, but it certainly seems to me that you spent an awful lot more of Mike's money than you needed to in order to get sufficient isolation.

I hope you did not believe that.

Actually, yes I did. As do many real experts, such as Rod and John, who really do know what they are talking about, and have a rather impressive track record to back up their claims. And yes I will continue to believe it, since the data came from an independent third party lab, and has been confirmed in numerous real-world studio builds. While the data for the duplicate tests which you claim to performed seems to have evaporated, and is now curiously absent... So unless you actually have real laboratory tests that show some other product to be superior to Green Glue in some meaningful way (including price), then yes, I'll go on believing that there is no such product.

try to find similar in your country and we will post link with this product!

Why would you need me to find a product that I already know does not exist, in order for you to post a link to yours? That makes no sense. I'm not talking about "my country". I'm talking about the product that YOU used, that YOU claim to have tested, and that YOU claim is as good as Green Glue. That's the product that we are talking about. How come you refuse to identify it? Are you afraid that someone actually might get the REAL specs for it, and prove you wrong? If not, then why refuse to identify it? In fact, let's see if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is: I challenge you to show us real test data results from a recognized independent acoustic laboratory, for ANY product from ANY country ANYWHERE on this planet, that demonstrates that the product is meaningfully superior to Green Glue in all aspects, and including price, and consistently outperforms Green Glue in every single published test. I'll go further than that: Post the data for the product you used, proving that it meets the above criteria, and I'll buy you a case of it, and ship it to you for free. But if you can't find any such product by the end of the week, then you buy me a case of Green Glue, and ship it to me for free. Do we have a deal?

Yes this "Green Glue" damping glue adhesive...

Once again, it isn't glue, and it isn't adhesive. It does not ever dry completely, and remains viscous. That's the whole point. It is useless as glue, and useless as adhesive, since it was not designed to be either. If you do not agree, then please shoe us the part of the Green Glue web site where it says that you can use it as panel adhesive, and that you do not need to screw or nail the panels in place after they are coated with Green Glue.

and please stop with this sealant thing.

Why do you want me to stop asking about why you didn't seal your gypsum panel edges, or use backer rod in the joints, or seal your screws, or use tape and mud? Are you concerned that your customer might figure out that you didn't seal your walls and ceiling in the manner that is recommended for best acoustic isolation? Are you worried that he might think you didn't do the job right? Are you scared that he might be worried about not having a reliable hermetic seal on his inner leaf?

"coverage on your panels": believe, this was only the beggining... Mike have hands "coloured in red"...

What? He uses his hands to spread it? Is that what you are saying? If not, then I don't get the comment. Easy questions to resolve the coverage issue: how many tubes of your sealant did you use on each panel of gypsum board? How much does each tube cost?

4th: well it is not nuclear physics, sorry! Contest is unnecessary

Strange comment, coming form an acoustician. I know folks who would disagree with that comment, and say that there is still an awful lot for mankind to learn about acoustics, that we don't actually know everything there is to know about it yet... And yes, a competition is necessary: You made the claim that you had tested the stuff that you are using, and found it to be every bit as good as Green Glue. You made the claim, I just asked you to back it up with the data from your tests. And you backed down.... Hmmmm.... Since you now say that no competition is necessary, I'll take that to mean that you never actually did any acoustics tests at all, and in reality have no idea if the stuff you used is even close to Green Glue, which does in fact have published, independent laboratory tests to back up its claims. Unlike you.

Informations indeed are on i-net for couple of years but not in specialists surroundings.

Well, I'm looking around this forum, and it sure does seem like a place that specializes in studio construction techniques! Plus, the techniques recommended here have been around for a LOT longer than a couple of years... There are examples going back about 25 years, at least. It's surprising that a qualified acoustician would no be aware of them, when they have been around for so long.

And yes; if you do not have a advance knowledge in building then might to be similar to teleportation system at first glance...

Advanced? what exactly is suppose to be advanced about a studio build were you did practically everything wrong, and spent twice what you needed to? Sorry, but I don't see anything "advanced" in that. The only thing it "teleported" is Mike's money to the building contractor's pocket.

no I am not a leading world acoustician

And that much, my friend, is patently clear. I'm glad that we can at least agree on that point.

Quote: And yes; if you do not have a advance knowledge in building then might to be similar to teleportation system at first glance... Advanced? what exactly is suppose to be advanced about a studio build were you did practically everything wrong, and spent twice what you needed to? Sorry, but I don't see anything "advanced" in that. The only thing it "teleported" is Mike's money to the building contractor's pocket.

Stuart :shock: you're posting a lot of good points regarding this build, I'm not totally convinced about some of the methods used (hence my earlier post) but I also think the documentation of the project doesn't show all the steps of the build such as caulking and taping. AND you CAN seal a room after you completed the build just the way you seal a bathroom build with a moist barrier just a lot thicker and you have to be careful not to rip that barrier in the future. When discussing the use of GG there's been a lot of posted links to quite similar products here at the forum over the years. I for example got hold of something called Noisekiller Yellow and SWEDAC DG A2 which of course is not the exact same product as GG but used as a substitute with similar results. I use both products when I build studios but can't compare with GG since it's impossible to get hold of for reasonable $$$. My main concern about this project was the flanking but the inner leaf ceiling is suspended from the outer leaf and will be regarded as decoupled from the outer leaf. So IMHO things should be fine with that too. best a :arrow:

Hey. First of all, it is hard for me to write everything down and explain everything, how I did it and why I did it, because its really hard to do that for me in english. I think it is better that you all stop. NenPatkovic is just a friend that helped me with room ratios, he told me what to do, what is good and what is not. I did everything else by myself. And he is not there with me 24/7 to know and see everything what we did. I will post much more detailed pictures now and hope you will not argue anymore. You must also know that building in Slovenia or USA are not the same, we use diferent methods. Just please be patient, I will find and upload those photos later. Regards. Mike

AndreasB wrote:

...I also think the documentation of the project doesn't show all the steps of the build such as caulking and taping. My main concern about this project was the flanking but the inner leaf ceiling is suspended from the outer leaf and will be regarded as decoupled from the outer leaf. So IMHO things should be fine with that too. best a :arrow:

Exactly ;)

Stuart, please, chill out. What is wrong with you? Why you and Ro are attacking me for every answer? If you dont like what you see, you obviously already make the point, leave the thread or help or just observe. This construction is just one of the solutions. I think when you read and see this photo thread you will lose mind: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/94784-i-started-building-small-studio.html especially site 5:http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/94784-i-started-building-small-studio-5.html Then ask Pilchner Schoustal what they think :wink: I am not here because I want to compete with world renowned acoustician!!! Nor I want to quarrel with others. Mike just ask me if I want to help him with my experiences. I was against this because I know what can happen. Like I said; I read this excellent forum quite often so I was able to predict this... my mistake. I am not a salesman for GG or anything else! The GG is not the one and only product on the world of that kind! I didnt know that the GG is almost religion and not just the good product. Also studio can be build without GG or not?! Nor I am not here to prove something, I am here just to comment about situation. Please, go from first page of that thread and read it carefully! You are asking questions which are already answered. Look the information behind links too!!! You are careless/ cursory. I will overlook your ignorance and insults. Moderators: is this allowed?! Please Eric or Ethan or Rod or Avare (I know who they are and they have sense for constructive communication),...: What do you think about all this? ... and why peoples who mostly just read photo diaries are so clever?! I am not enough relevant obviously.

Gentlemen: With the very greatest of heartfelt respect to you all, this has to stop now. :wink: Kindest regards, Lou. 8)

I agree - what is it with people that they hang on this site and feel they have the authority to tell everyone else what they think they are doing wrong? Overnight experts. :cop: If you check my posts on the subject you will find I don't recommend GG unless you are stuck with a single wall construction. I don't use it in any of my constructions as my clients have much better things to spend their money on.

We're not attacking your answers at all, we're just curious and hope to learn (but also teach now and then, jup overnight experts ;) ) That's what happens on this forum, every day, in every post. If you've got great builds, we love to see and know what happens. For all sake you've just found THE alternative for GG (which is not a glue nor a sealant, indeed). We love specs, rapports, detailed info and pics. Hope you love'm too :) cheers, mates. ps. Since Eric kind of got offline we haven't had a great discussion here, so we start our own :twisted:

i think regardless of some of the non-traditional methods/materials used, this room is going to kick some serious ass!! Theres no need to get off track on whats important here..building a studio and documenting it on here for other people to enjoy and possibly learn from. Everyone has their own way to get a desired result and thats what makes this forum so awesome, the ability to see different techniques used by others to determine whats best for you. Very impressed so far and keep the updates comin!!!

John Sayers wrote:

I agree - what is it with people that they hang on this site and feel they have the authority to tell everyone else what they think they are doing wrong? Overnight experts. :cop: If you check my posts on the subject you will find I don't recommend GG unless you are stuck with a single wall construction. I don't use it in any of my constructions as my clients have much better things to spend their money on.

Agree that whoever can freely ask or answer or comment but not with that attitude. Obviously this is the level of communication here. So I got tired of it.

I'm sorry, but that's just rubbish in my opinion. This is a very friendly forum, I think you're just overreacting. Let's see if we can start again on a better foot this time.

Hey kids :lol: So the finall layer 15mm drywall is finished. Tomorow (I don't know the word in english for that)... mastic, bandage, etc. ?... well they will prepare the walls, so I can paint them. I also hope that I will get inner doors this week, because we need to install them ASAP, to finish the floor (OAK parquet).

Some more...

location...

Looking great Mike! Keep it up!

:shock: it's insanely massive! wow, how thick IS that wall? It's going to be interesting to hear how it works out for you! keep it up! a :arrow:

AndreasB wrote:

:shock: it's insanely massive! wow, how thick IS that wall? It's going to be interesting to hear how it works out for you! keep it up! a :arrow:

Yes... it is insane :mrgreen: I already post a photo of my walls... download/file.php?id=25296 All together is around 52 cm = 20,47 inches = 1,70 feet ;)

I order my 100kg inner doors today and guess what... I need to wait 1 month for them.... look at me...... I'mmm happyyyy :cen: At least I can start with painting etc :roll:

RE: that last picture of the outer door Is there a physical connection via plasterboard from the inner leaf and the outside door frame?

nope... there is not, we use armaflex (gumfoam) on outer framework and than attached drywall on it :wink: I usualy forgot to make detailed pictures because I'm concentrating on work, so sorry about that...