Alright...
What does it take to get a good record.. A floating floor or a good engineer (and musicians for that matter!)
Forget about DAPTONE, sure they make excellent stuff but it's not because they have a floor floating on tires. I could point you to I-don't-know-how-many other million-dollar selling records which AREN'T recorded on floating floor.
Let's see, you have a bike-store next door.
Bike's make airborne sound, a lot of'm. They rest on tires so they're kinda floating. (That's not an argument that says "floating on tires is good")
What you need is mass to prevent waves coming through. A good slab will provide loads of mass(!) already. Adding another floor is wasting money.
Ask yourself; WHY do I need a floating floor.
Because of vibration? Well concrete will not vibrate that easy, it's stiff, hard and has mass. So I would not worry to much.
Is the concreteslab attached directly to the bike-shop?
A construction site around your property. Hmm, that's not good indeed. But it's prolly just temp. right.
So is it wise to plan your studio on that location in the first place?
On top of that, imagine I just leave the deck / frame on top of the concrete and build the whole thing from there. Is it guaranteed the garages next to mine won't hear my band playing?
nope.
Your walls and ceiling are the weakest spot in your current construction so you HAVE to deal with that, atleast. I wouldn't worry about your floor too much. Really!
Rod gave you a good answer, he's considered one of the most experienced builders on this forum. Just as John (L Sayers) who stated he has only build one floating floor yet, see his projectspage.
Consider your plans, we're here to help. Not to be arrogant or wise-asses.
alexfigueira,
Floating walls and ceiling?,
Ends up on slabs...it is a heavy discussion on a heavy subject by some heavyweights in the field !
This one more closely relates to your existing geography: the worlds cheapest sound isolation tips
You would do well to read the entire thread[s] to maybe reverse some of the damage that pictures on the Internet and sensationalisms are doing.
xSpace, you are realling making it up with all these great links. Thanks a lot.
I would still like to see Rod's opinion on the questions I asked them. I know he hates wooden frames on the floor with DIY rubber solutions to "float" them but my concerns are valid.
I was considering using sand on the floor, because I found a guy who is giving away 200 cubic meters for free. So Rod, in your book you say wooden frames with sand can be of some benefit, acoustically speaking, but advice should be taken from the engineer. Well, I suppose you mean this last line for the case one is building it on top of something. But can't I just build the frame and then fill it in with sand?
In that case, how would I actually build the floor? I really wish you would have developed this particular subject a little deeper in your book.
Does anybody know a post with more informarton about how effectively use sand on floors for acoustic porpuouses?
Many thanks in advance.
alex.
Alex:
This is an instant course in floating floors. It is physics and engineering. No subjective concepts.
Floating floors form Mass-Spring-Mass (MAM) systems. In studio acoustics the spring is almost a combination of the air in the space and the actual srping. MAMs have have a resonant frequency where the isolation is worse than without the floor. The isolation is the same as no floor at one octave above the resonant frequency. Isolation increases at 6 db/octave as frequency increases. For effective increase in isolation the resonant frequency has to be 2 octaves below the lowest frequency where 6 db of isolation is wanted. If dealing with the lowest frequency being 40 Hz (open E on a bass), the design resonance is 10 Hz.
10 Hz resonance requires a compliant deflection of ~1cm. The mass of the fist component is taken as infinity. The MAM formula is
f=600/(m/d)^2
where:
f=resonant frequency
m= mass (kg/m^2)
d=distance between layers (cm)
Use 500 as the numerator if the airspace is filled with absorbent material.
You have already been given links to mass data. Do the calculations.
Bear in mind that 10 Hz the isolation will be worse. 10 Hz corresponds to a 2 cylinder 4 stroke engine at 1 800 rpm. If you want to isolate that, you have to go with 2.5 Hz resonant frequency.
Andre
So Rod, in your book you say wooden frames with sand can be of some benefit, acoustically speaking, but advice should be taken from the engineer. Well, I suppose you mean this last line for the case one is building it on top of something. But can't I just build the frame and then fill it in with sand?
Why do yuo have to make this more difficult than you have to?
There isn't anything very deep here - first off I stated that the big benefit with this would be the ability to create a path for low voltage conduits into other rooms - and that there was some SMALL (emphasis on small - just in case you missed it in the book) benefit from sands ability to damp.
Notice I did not say an elevated deck - just a deck - a plain ordinary deck.
In that case, how would I actually build the floor? I really wish you would have developed this particular subject a little deeper in your book.
Build the floor like anyone would build a floor - and then fill it to the brim with sand.......
Not very effective at all - that is why I said "some small benefit" - but at least they can't gurt you.
Now - just one other comment........... you posted that nice link - and I thought it was pretty decent - but they never explained exactly how they constructed that deck of theirs - not the size of the tires - not the size of the framing members - nor the spacing of those members - not the covering over those members, etc., etc.
How do you know that what you are doing even remotely resembles what they exactly did?
And that is one of the problem with these types of systems -
seeing as it has never been tested and documented - no-one actually knows how good it works (if it actually makes a difference at all)
And none of that has a thing to do with the quality of their recordings.
Think about it.
Rod
Thanks guys for the replies. You are all REALLY patient. I know I said I would stop reading and I will go further with the floated floor but now that I took the plywood apart and lifted the whole frame upwards, I feel very tempted to leave it as a wall and go on with building the others, forgetting about the floated floor. I've noticed there has been quite a lot of negativity about the DIY floated floor and there was a post by Mr Sayers, where he says the only floor he floated in the last projects he designed was on a top floor with offices bellow. That got me thinking quite a lot and now I'm considering to use just the concrete floor that is standing in there right now.
So, considering I do this, there is one simple question I ask: How to decouple the structure (I mean the walls that therefore support the ceiling)?
Is there any use on adding EPDM between the concrete and the studs on top of whom the wall supporting studs will be mounted? Meanwhile, the studs that support the wall will have to be screwed onto the floor, I'm afraid there's no way to get around that.
And please keep on being patient. Don't forget you guys know more than I do. I assure you it will pay off.
Thanks in advance.
alex.
Alex,
Great you got the point. Note that sometimes you DO need to float, as Mr. Sayers did.
you don't really need to decouple the frames from that concrete floor since it's part of you room already. Adding a false ceiling on top of that framing IS, however, something to consider. It'll decouple your new ceiling from the existing. Your current roof (and so, your ceiling) is prolly your weakest point.
You are totally right. The ceiling is pretty much of a piece of crap. I'm not really sure how to follow your suggestion, though. All the options for ceillings on Rod's book are way too complicated for my budget. I'll have to look that one up.
Suggestions are EXTREMELY welcome.
Thanks
alex.
You are totally right. The ceiling is pretty much of a piece of crap. I'm not really sure how to follow your suggestion, though. All the options for ceillings on Rod's book are way too complicated for my budget. I'll have to look that one up.
Suggestions are EXTREMELY welcome.
Thanks
alex.
It's not that complex. You HAVE to beef up your ceiling if it's crap already. It's just the same as walls.
Build your frames, 4 walls, and add a frame on top of those frames to hold your new ceiling. Make sure your frames don't touch the exterior walls.
Indeed, Ro the ceiling is my weakest link, no doubt about it, so I'm gonna put extra effort into it, together with the doors (a guaranteed pain in the ass on all garages).
There is a dramatic change of plans now that I decided to read Rod's book once more (with extra attention and more insight this time). There will be no plywood. I will use drywall instead, with staggered studs. Still not sure how many layers I'm going to use but for sure will be at least one on each side, with different thicknesses. The former floor will be split on two in order to become my front and back walls.
As for the concrete floor, when the whole room is built, I will have to isolate it for temperature issues so I was thinking if I should just put EPDM under wood. It would be something like this order, from bottom to top:
- concrete
- EPDM
- Laminate flooring
. Carpet (I got two layers, though, not sure if I should use them both).
But I'm sure I will have a lot of doubts before I make it to the stage of isolating the concrete.
Will keep you updated with the advance. I'm now struggling with the doors.
Cheers
alex.
not sure how many layers I'm going to use but for sure will be at least one on each side, with different thicknesses.
I think you should re-read that chapter.
As for the concrete floor, when the whole room is built, I will have to isolate it for temperature issues so I was thinking if I should just put EPDM under wood. It would be something like this order, from bottom to top:
- concrete
- EPDM
- Laminate flooring
. Carpet (I got two layers, though, not sure if I should use them both).
1st question - why would you throw away laminate flooring just to cover it with carpet? That's a lot of money.
Better than above........
seal the concrete with concrete sealer.
2" of 703
double layer of 1/2" plywood
laminate flooring on top of that.
forget the carpet - hard floor soft ceiling is a decent bet. Carpet just sucks the highs out of the room.
the 703 will insulate AND take away the fatigue of walking on concrete (and also take impact out of the concrete.)
Rod
I think Alex wants to consider Rockwool mineral wool (available at most Dutch DIY-stores) instead of 703, for OC doesn't have distribution in the Netherlands, nor will OC ship stuff unless you order by sea container's quantities of the stuff. Then still shipping will cost about as much as the actual product...
2" of 703
double layer of 1/2" plywood
laminate flooring on top of that.
forget the carpet - hard floor soft ceiling is a decent bet. Carpet just sucks the highs out of the room.
Rod, what are you suggesting here.. floating the floor?
alex, why staggered studs?
Put drywall (aka gipsplaat) on one side only to prevent making multiple leafs.
Rod,
I don't need to read the chapter again. I know you state the disvantage of the staggered studds very clearly. But the independent walls system is gonna take even more space.
I will try to find 2x3 studds. If I use those instead of the 2x4 I've been using, I think I could make the sacrifice on the space.
As for the floor, I have a lot of laminated floor left over from my appartment. And you can buy packages for 5 euros. But I also have a lot of plywood left over from the former floor. I could use a layer of that. As for the 703, Edo is absolutely right. I can go for a very compacted form of glasfiber I already use in the pass. It's really stiff stuff, it's still flexible and it's cheap. Something like this:
Heavy Rockwool
And just before finishing, another important question: Green Glue. It's extremely expensive material (200 euros per box) but I'd like to know whether there is any use on getting hold of two boxes (what my budget allows me to) or one should just go for a massive quantity. Does anybody know?
And here are some pictures for those of you who want to see.
Thanks a lot.
Guys,
Would you mind helping a little further? I have a few more questions that I couldn't find on any other posts (I tried my best!). Please see the (crappy) drawing before reading the questions:
- I'd like to do a double frame ceilling to increase the insulation in this part. Is this somehow possible? I guess it would, since I'm building a double frame for the walls. The idea is that one of the two frames is slightly taller than the other so that would allow me to do this. Advice?
- Would 2x3 wood studs support two layers of 1,25mm drywall?
- As I said on one of my previous posts, I can't afford green glue for the whole room but I could, eventually, for the ceiling and the garage door, my weakest links. Is there any point on doing this or is it just a waste of money? Particularly on the case of the ceiling, considering that the waves could find more resistance on this part but they will surely "go through" on weakest parts, for example the walls, where there will be no Green Glue and therefore, thanks to reflection, end up going through the actual garage's ceiling anyway?
- I've read in countless threads that is more useful to use different thicknesses of drywall when putting more than one layer. In my case, how should I approach this? Options are:
1) Two layers of 1,25mm on the inner frame and then 2 layers of 0,95mm on the outer frame
2) Combine 1,25mm and 0,95 mm on each of the frames.
- I'm using the 2x4 studs that I formerly used on the floor for doing the front and back walls (one part of the double frame, the other will be with 2x3). Will this cause any major modal activity or can I just go ahead?
- Does anybody know any decent acoustic sealent here in the Netherlands? I'm totally clueless on this one. Ro?
As usual, let me thank you all very much for your help. It is extremely appreciated.
Alex.
please resize those huge pix (or better: trim them)
Sorry, it's not your pictures that cause the widescreen.
It's that link to MARKTPLAATS that makes me nuts, could you change it and use BBcode ?
(as in url= blabla)
MY apologies, guys. I'm still a rookie, but I learn very fast!
Link is fixed, Ro.
As for the centimeters, Edo, the studs would be 50 cm x 75 cm. Right now I'm trying to dissemble the former floor frame. It is simply impossible unless I break it or cut it. I guess I should be proud but doesn't help me feeling less of an idiot.
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to break it anyway (to take it away from here).
So what do you guys think of the questionary? :) I need to know (particularly) about the studs with maximum urgency. I have to order tomorrow morning so I can have them here friday so my brother in law can help me during the weekend. Otherwise I'm quite screwed.
Thanks in advance!
alex.
As for the centimeters, Edo, the studs would be 50 cm x 75 cm.
Well THAT sounds like it's supposed to be in millimeters... or 5 x 7.5 centimeters. A 2 x 3 stud (in inches) about equals what I said. The reason I commented on the millimeter thing is that I have never seen drywall as thin as 1.25 mm :D
Guys,
- I'd like to do a double frame ceilling to increase the insulation in this part. Is this somehow possible? I guess it would, since I'm building a double frame for the walls. The idea is that one of the two frames is slightly taller than the other so that would allow me to do this. Advice?
Alex.
Alex, I could not locate where you explained what your existing building walls are made from...is it concrete?
Thing is, your talking about doing a double frame but you already have an existing exterior perimeter wall right? You have to use that wall as part of your m/a/m consideration.
Same with the ceiling.