Going above the garage?

Hello all! Wow, what a fantastic site. I wish I had found this years ago when I made my last studio (that only worked so well….) I am in the early stages of designing a new room. My story is my wife and I had a kid, and decided we should look to living in a better area. With a stroke of good luck, we stumbled upon a deal in a great area (Woodland Hills area of Los Angeles), on a cul-de-sac, with great near by schools. And while I was sad I would have to leave my beloved studio behind, I was looking forward to building a better one in my new garage. The garage itself is attached to the house via a hallway, but there are no shared walls with the house. I got thinking, it would be really nice to actually have a garage though, and I noted I had a front/side yard (since I’m on a cul-de-sac, the property is rounded in front, so what I think of the side of the house is the front, depending on where you are standing). So I determined rather than convert the garage, I would build off of it, and use this yard area that I don’t use (we have a big back yard). However, after meeting with numerous people and some research, it was determined this idea would not work. There is a small, but steep slope between this yard and neighbors house (drops about 5 feet over a 6 foot distance) and due to the roundness of the Cul-de-sac, keeping the proper distance from the property line is an issue. So getting a permit would be difficult, if not impossible, and I would have to spend $15,000 to $20,000 to have a special foundation, special footings, retaining walls, and soil work and maybe I could end up with a 14x10 room, which would be much smaller than the 17x20 room I left behind. :cry: A new proposal came up, and that was build a 2nd story above the garage. Permits for this should be easy (my other neighbors house is 2 stories), and oddly enough, construction costs would be $20,000 cheaper, and the end results would be a 20x20 room :D , much more to my liking. The room height I am unsure of right now, but there is a slight pitch to the roof now that will be matched in any new construction. The issue is can I effectively soundproof a 2nd story room? :?: The room’s purpose: Practice drums (and I have to say I play very loud) Low budget recordings on my Digi 002 Occasional full band practice I mainly like to practice in the evenings, after my son goes to bed. I am not thinking about any control room or iso booths at this time. Main concerns: Issue 1: Floors: I don’t have to worry so much about sound escaping through the floor and into the garage, but I do have to worry about sound escaping the garage itself. My main concern is even if I have the best walls, the floor could potentially undo any time and money spent of the walls From reading this forum, floating the floors is out. I will float a drum riser (I read some good threads about that on here). I can insulate under the floor and make have a finished ceiling in the garage portion. Is installing RC in the garage ceiling (i.e. under the studio) worth it? Issue 2: My original plan was have a contractor build the frame, exterior walls, basic floor and roof, and then sound proof later on my own. This would at least give me a temporary space to set up an electronic drum set, and not require as much money upfront. However, this creates problems into itself. Getting the city to sign off on the electrical won’t happen until it’s done, and I don’t want to have install some wiring, just to redo it later (since I would like to use surface mount wiring if possible). And the same really goes for any aspect of the room. So now I’m thinking I need to design the finished product now, and do it all at once, or else I could be throwing money down the drain on a room I’ll never get to be sound proof enough. Not to mention, there will be stairs, and lugging drywall up stairs myself doesn’t sound like fun. Issue 3: Windows. There is some talk the city could require them, and I admit the addition to the house would look more uniform (from the outside) if there were some windows. And to be honest, when I’m not actually physically playing the drums, it would be nice to open up the room, air it out, and have natural light if I’m just tinkering with something that isn’t making sound. But this just seems like a recipe for disaster for when I am on my drums. The windows would be double panned, and I could built baffles to cover them when, and seal those, but would just the thought of a window negate any benefits of doing a two-leaf wall discussed here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4310 I’m starting to question if this is even going to work at all, and I’m feeling I am on the verge of sinking a lot of money into something useless. On the other hand, I can be in on building this thing from scratch. And take steps now to avoid problems later on. Other info: It gets well over 100 during the summer, so I will install an AC system. Rain is rare. The edge of the neighbor’s house is approx 20 feet away, albeit down hill. I've looked at the various threads on studios being built, and I didn't see any desigs that are on a 2nd floor like this, unless there were in an industrial concreate building. Budget: The construction is alreay an arm and a leg, but I am going to budget $10,000 to the sound proofing process on top of the cost of building the frame, exterior walls, and roof. So the main questions: Is this ever going to work doing this as a 2nd floor? Is there anything I should have done in the initial framing and building of the 2nd story that will save me headaches later on? Will I end up having to sound proof two rooms (the studio and the garage under it) in order to prevent my neighbors from calling the Police? . Any insight is greatly appreciated. I did give a contractor a small deposit to start working on plans for the framing, but it's not too late to stop him.

I think it will be a challenge to get good soundproofing on the second floor, while maintaining structural integrity. You will definitely want to consult a structural engineer on this. Soundproofing requires mass (among other things), and the issue will be, can the second floor safely hold that mass? Do you have Rod's book yet? Also, keep reading around this site. I think it can be done, but you will definitely have to take care of the structural end of things.

jwl wrote:

I think it will be a challenge to get good soundproofing on the second floor, while maintaining structural integrity. You will definitely want to consult a structural engineer on this. Soundproofing requires mass (among other things), and the issue will be, can the second floor safely hold that mass? Do you have Rod's book yet? Also, keep reading around this site. I think it can be done, but you will definitely have to take care of the structural end of things.

Thank you. I was considering the mass and integrity issue this morning. I've read a lot of money saving tips on this forum, but I'm thinking if I save up extra for the more expensive materials, I can reduce the overall mass of the room. For example, using Quiterock over multiple layers of sheet rock, even though the Quiterock is way more expensive, and (based on my readings here) the same results can be acheived using less expensive materials, a layer of Quiterock would be far less overall weight than a room in a room. Or splurging for the aurlex platform for a drum riser over the cheaper ideas I've read about here. I would certainly hate to build this, and find out a year or ten down the line the floor joists are giving out. :shock: I have not bought Rod's book yet. If I can get it locally, I will pick it up later today.

One other thought is adding a 1/2 bath to the plan. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a long way down and across my house just to take a leak, and between the kid sleeping, and my dogs, it's not a good idea when I have people over to send them that way. But then water and drain pipes, plus a bathroom vent adds an entire new problem to the sound proofing dilema. :?: It could easily become the weak point of even the best laid plans.

An update: I've talked to the contractor, and he doesn't think adding significant sound proofing concepts to the basic design will be an issue, including double walls. An engineer has to sign on off on it anyway for city code, so as long as I take everything into account now, we should be good on it not all falling down. And I re-read the thread on Quiterock, and realized the concensus was greenglue does a better job. So now I'm back to thinking that extra expense is out.

jwl wrote:

Do you have Rod's book yet? .

I found a copy at my local Boarders. :D I'm going to spend most of this afternoon reading it.

DrumEatDrum wrote:

jwl wrote:

Do you have Rod's book yet? .

I'm going to spend most of this afternoon reading it.

and every day thereafter... :D

gullfo wrote:

DrumEatDrum wrote:

jwl wrote:

Do you have Rod's book yet? .

I'm going to spend most of this afternoon reading it.

and every day thereafter... :D

Ah yes....I've gotten through most of the book, and keep re-reading several chapters. But now I'm a bit confused. On page 65, in the 4th paragraoph, he mentions that maybe building above a garage would "make sense," but he doesn't expand on that concept. :cry: And at the bottom of page 65, the 1st sentence of the last paragraph says "We'll look more deeply at some isolating decks for new construction in the next chapeter" but the next chapter is doors and windows, and he doesn't mention isolating decks at all. :?: Obviously, the begging on chapter 4 is all about isolating concreate slabs, and sand filed decks, but not much on what to do about if you really are building on the 2nd floor. Again, I'm no so concered with sound leaking into the garage below, but I am worried about sound getting out the sides of the floor to the outside world.

above the garage has several things going for it, one of which is the garage can act to trap bass from the room above. however if you have sound levels high enough, they will leak out of the garage. so you may have to put up something under the floor to prevent the sound from escaping or fix the entire garage. this is where testing your existing construction is important so you have an idea about how much sound is getting out or in, and where its getting out or in. with drums though - check Sharward's thread on this as it can get expensive very quickly with fines and all so improving the iisolation seems like its important. since you have electronic drums, maybe thats the better option for practice or rehearsals.

gullfo wrote:

above the garage has several things going for it, one of which is the garage can act to trap bass from the room above. however if you have sound levels high enough, they will leak out of the garage. so you may have to put up something under the floor to prevent the sound from escaping or fix the entire garage. this is where testing your existing construction is important so you have an idea about how much sound is getting out or in, and where its getting out or in. with drums though - check Sharward's thread on this as it can get expensive very quickly with fines and all so improving the iisolation seems like its important. since you have electronic drums, maybe thats the better option for practice or rehearsals.

The garage as a bass trap is interesting. :) That idea helps a lot. I do plan on redoing the entire garage anyway to make it a nice work shop with some gym equpiment; i.e. insulating the walls, rubber floor. There is only so much I can do about the garage door though. Right now it's a pretty basic garage, it does have dry wall on the walls, but I think most of it will come down anyway to put in the supports for the 2nd story. As for the electronic drums, I use those because it's easier when recording demos or song ideas to just take some lines out into Protools, rather then setting multiple mics and pre-amps. If I just wanted to exclusively use electronic drums, there would be no point in sound proofing anything, because they are very quite already (I used to use them in my apartment all the time with out any issues). Anyhow....back to reading....

yea, the best bass trap is an open window... so if you can afford to allow bass to escape into another room, you will likely improve on your room mode treatments because the levels you have to deal with will be less. the garage is nice because no one tends to hang out there (as opposed to liveable space). as a general rule, if you have to choose between using your house as a bass trap, or the neighbors house, choose your house...

Here's some other links to "above garage projects"... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8426 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9178 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#60097 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= They mostly lead nowhere. Most of the authors gave up or quit posting. Maybe many of these die a grizzly death after they realize it's hard to get good soundproofing on an elevated wooden deck.

britune wrote:

Here's some other links to "above garage projects"... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8426 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9178 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#60097 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= They mostly lead nowhere. Most of the authors gave up or quit posting. Maybe many of these die a grizzly death after they realize it's hard to get good soundproofing on an elevated wooden deck.

Thank you!!!!! :D I did notice that no one ever answered any questions about floors. :( I'm more and more annoyed with Rod's book that he says there are solutions that he has used in hotesl, but doesn't explain them. It's an amazing huge over sight by the editor. And the more I read, the more I think the editor didn't understand the concepts, as I've found a few places that just beg for more explanations. And there are hotels with nightclubs on top floors, and I've been at hotels where live music was featured on 2nd and 3rd floors with no leakage. Now I have no idea if any of those concepts can be applied to a residential structure, but it seems there is a way to have high volume music above the ground floor. As this point, my concept is using: Aurlex Platfoam for the drum riser (perhaps even two layers) QuiteWood or Aurlex Sheetbock, or similar product on the floor, Insulate the rafters between the floor and garage ceiling, and then hang Quiterock on the ceiling of the garage. This of course adds up to be very expensive, and I'm still not sure how much sound will still escape through the floor joists out the side of the building, but I've yet to read a better idea so far.

I think the answer from Rod's book may be to have enough structural support to have a sand filled floor or a concrete floor. Most floors can't support that weight. I know mine can't. It would also help to structurally separate the ceiling below, so it is not attached to the floor. I may build my room with a mixture of double walls and drywall on RC. Then I may leave the floor alone and invite a drummer over and do some testing. If I need more isolation at that point, I will use Green Glue (including on the floor) and add more drywall. If that's still not enough, I can rip out the drywall ceiling below my studio floor and decouple it from the room above.

britune wrote:

I think the answer from Rod's book may be to have enough structural support to have a sand filled floor or a concrete floor. Most floors can't support that weight. I know mine can't. It would also help to structurally separate the ceiling below, so it is not attached to the floor. I may build my room with a mixture of double walls and drywall on RC. Then I may leave the floor alone and invite a drummer over and do some testing. If I need more isolation at that point, I will use Green Glue (including on the floor) and add more drywall. If that's still not enough, I can rip out the drywall ceiling below my studio floor and decouple it from the room above.

He does get into more detail on building a studio floor on a 2nd story on pages 66 through 77. My concern with floating the ceiling in the garage below is I'll still need to have somewhere for the garage door to be attached too. At some point, the garage door rails need to be attached to something solid. But I'm still curious as to the line on page 65: "We'll look more deeply at some isolating decks for new construction in the next chapeter" as that would more apply to my situation.

How high is your garage ceiling? Do you have pictures of this project?

I hadn't posted pictures because I was waiting for the sketches from the archetic, which just arrived. Some how I thought the sketches would be more detailed. I'm a little bent on that, because I realize this doesn't quite given enough for any one here to go off of. I like the basic layout as far as the placement of the stair case and bathroom. The window over the drive way is fine. I think I want to move the other window over to one side, but I'm not sure. (and yes, windows are bad, but fire codes will require they be installed).

Garage doors in Australia are a bit different than the states. The rolled door(open) simply attaches to the wall above the door space with no connection to the roof. I wonder if this type is available in the US. That would leave the ceiling free for what ever you decide

This design would decouple your upstairs floor from your garage below. This is what I'll build if it's too loud at my neighbors houses after I hang the drywall upstairs. The TJI joists can be sized so they don't need a support post. You just need a structural engineer to build it so it can handle the weight you need. It costs more money.