Attic Studio/Music Room in Texas

here we go, i'm going to try and give as much info as possible, but if you guys need more please let me know. my wife and i have bought this house with a great extra room/attic above the garage (pictures below) which shares one wall with the house including a door into the upstairs hallway. i'm a drummer and electronic music guy and want to finish out the room to be a place to practice and record drums and also program the electronic elements of my music. my dad is a general contractor of 30+ years here in texas so he will be able to answer most of my questions involving city and state code and help with any permits. most of my questions here will have more to do with everyone's experience and how i can get the most bang for my buck in isolating my drums. the most important things to me is obviously keeping the drums isolated from the neighbors (typical american suburbia neighborhood) but also not shrinking this room down too much (cake and eat it too right!). i would really prefer to keep the shape and size as much as possible and treat it acoustically with DIY panels i made last year. so i will go over what i think i can afford to do and then ask for opinions on whether it will make enough difference for the neighbors and my wife and the future kids. if i can afford it i will put 703 between the roof studs against the plywood and then pack in some batting but it might end up being just batting. i thought i would do layers of drywall on RC where possible caulked as described in the forums. i haven't figured out what to do with the floor but i will probably build a small drum riser on pucks to isolate it from the floor. questions.... :arrow: 1. if i do one or two layers of drywall all around on RC with insulation and then the roofing layers on the outside (plywood, tar, shingles) and figure out the floor (which is only above the garage) will this be enough? i'm asking from those of you experienced in this sort of thing. will it still be loud or just a muffled thudding. i guess i'm asking for a description of the difference between 45 and 60 stc for a druset being played somewhat loud. i found the listening example but do not have realplayer. :arrow: 2. would it be worth the extra time and money to frame a room in the room at the farthest end from the house just for the drum kit and just do a single layer leaf without the RC for the rest of the space for just my "control room". at our duplex now i use our office as my music room and it isn't isolated at all and hasn't been a problem. note: having one big room or two half rooms is something i just can't decide on. i guess if i ever wanted to use this like an actual studio then it would be an obvious plus... still undecided. :arrow: 3. the triangular area on the left side of the room... could this be an oversized bass trap? if i seal it off from the room with drywall on RC can it still function as a trap. what would i fill it with? or should i run the drywall down the back of it (the roof line) and then use 703 at the vertical wall studs (the 4'7" part) to create a trap? i feel like this space could be utilized for this but don't know how... :arrow: 4. the floor? i'll make a drum riser so... how should i layer the floor? right now its just plywood on the joists over the garage and the garage is drywalled. no idea if there is insulation in there. thanks for this forum. its a huge help. hope to hear some great advice jeremy

I am in an almost identical situation as you... The room above the garage. In Rod's book, he states that an elevated wood deck (which we both have) is almost impossible to soundproof. The floor of your bonus room is a giant drum head that will vibrate and resonate sound. To stop acoustic drums and low bass from passing through your floor, it would require WAY more weight in concrete or sand than most rooms can support. If you have ridge vent or soffit vents, it will be very difficult to design a "sealed" room within a room, or two leaf system. If your outer shell is vented, like mine, it is not a sealed leaf. Depending on what you have below your floor, you may need a beam to support more weight to build more in your room. In the end, it will be very difficult to have a high level of soundproofing in your room for something like acoustic drums, or a live band with amplifiers. I'm in the same boat. Here's my link... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8426 I look forward to seeing more of your posts, as I am still trying to decide what to do for my project (above garage or basement). I only track acoustic drums about once a year, so I may proceed without a lot of soundproofing...???.... You could record electronic drums in your room and have the guitarists go direct.... Best of luck.

wow, thats suprisingly similar. if it weren't for the snow... great thread for me to have read. basements are rare in texas so i'll have to make do. i think i will wall off about ten feet at the end of the room. hang two layers of drywall on RC for the inside leaf and caulk to seal (as shown in the refrence area) then build a riser for the drums floating on something like pucks. then finish the rest of the room later as needed. this would allow me to focus my money on ioslating a smaller space at first, saving the control room which will require less isolation for later. the only thing about this i do not like is the size of the drum room. maybe i could fit a small "loosely coupled space" somewhere for a longer tail. am i just wasting my money if i don't fix the "drum head" floor first?

The most important consideration about the floor will be... how much weight can it support. Do you have columns and support beams? Almost no one has a room above a garage that has the support to handle the sand or concrete needed for good isolation. Most folks on this board can't tell you how much weight your floor can support. They will tell you to consult a structural engineer. Most of the wisdom on this board will tell you that floating floors are a waste of money. They are expensive and often built so that they don't work. I hope you can find a semi-decent solution... because I NEED ONE ALSO!!!! If you have the structural support below... maybe a carpet pad with plywood above it???!!!???

i'm thinking more of an 8'x10' frame (made with 2x4's) filled with rockwool or 703 on rubber feet or foam (to lift from floor) and with a plywood top. it would rest on whatever floor i finished the drum room with. the floor above the garage is the same structure as the rest of the second story of this house. it was actually designed to be completed as a bonus theatre or workout room to be finished buy the home buyer hoy they see fit. mine is the only house on the street (of this floor plan) where they didn't finish the room like the rest of the house. but they did run power and a/c to it. anyway, i would for sure find out it could hold before building. again, my dad has been building for 30 yrs and could help get the right guy to make sure for me. going back to the walls. because the most of the walls will be hanging completely or at least at 45 degrees, should i rethink the resilient channel will it hold two layers of sheetrock upside down. i think john said somewhere that he wouldn't trust it. maybe i should use some type of sheet blok instead. thanks for the discussion britune, and i hpe i can be a good "guinea pig" for your project! :D :D

while i'm at it... before getting knee deap in building, :arrow: is the shape of this future room going to be a nightmare to acoustically treat? :arrow: do the 45's overhead ruin me or help knock down parralels? :arrow: and i would still love comments on the triangular area behind the 4' wall as a possible bass trap for the control room area. my treatment surplus now: three 8' x 2' x 4" thick rockwool 6pcf diy panels two panels 1.5' x 4' x 2" thick 703 with two inches of space for early reflections one panel 4' x 6' x 2" 703 with 2" of space on the wall now behind my monitors one panel 4' x 3' x 2" 703 with 2" of space and three more 2'x4'x4" rockwool peices and about 5' x 4' left of 703 type leftovers just trying to give as much info as i can

ok i just read this. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8173 again so what about this for the drum room i know three layer leafs are said to be bad but i didn't know if sheetblock is the kind of layer they are talking about

You should also look at green glue. They say it helps a lot without adding the weight of additional layers. I'd love to get some comments from Rod Gervais, knightfly, sharward, or some of the other knowledgable folks, since you, me, mickdoo22, and others have the same difficult decisions to make. We all have rooms above the garage. We will never get GREAT soundproofing, but how do we make the most of our difficult situations? Can anyone help us achieve some level of soundproofing with our elevated wood decks and ridge vents and soffit vents????

Study the following threads... Studio above garage in bonus room- early planning by britune "Bonus Room" studio, feasible? by robn (unfortunately, all of the original poster's photos have disappeared... :x) --Keith :mrgreen:

awesome reading. looks like the floor will be the biggest problem, and since i can't make it too heavy i might just have to make do with what it can support. it seems like no matter how many times i read the reference pages, sometimes i just can't make decisions until i say things out loud (notice the number of posts by me to replies). i'm going to be building in stages so i'm really in no hurry. i will probably start with stuffing as much insulation as i can in the roof studs and other behind wall spaces and see how loud a boombox is, how loud the garage door opener is, and how much "impact sounds" gets into the house via the floor.

Don't just do something: stand there! ;-) Seriously... Don't do anything physical yet, including adding insulation, before you take your measurements. The insulation alone won't improve isolation much (if at all) and you very well may (actually, I predict, will) need to remove it in order to beef up your outer leaf. Testing: good. Planning: good. Educating thyself: good. Building before you know what you're building: bad. There may be ways to shore up the ceiling from below inside the garage if necessary: perhaps an(other) glu-lam beam (or two?) running under and perpendicular to the joists. See the "Stickhouse" thread to see a heavy beam being installed in that garage conversion project to shore up a sagging roof. I wouldn't plan it yet: just know that may be one item in a professional structural engineer's bag o' tricks to allow for a heavier build. Keep studying, my friend. Indeed, there's a lot to learn here (and elsewhere) and no shortage of people here to help you get unstuck when you need it. :-) (Actually, there is a shortage dammit! :evil: ;-)) --Keith :mrgreen:

what are some methods for improving the outer leaf when its the roof line?

bwack- If I had to guess what might be a good thing to do (with my limited knowledge)... I would guess you should hang two sheets of drywall on RC, with green glue in between the drywall, for the walls and ceiling. That's what I'm considering doing. For the floors, you could put a carpet pad on the existing floor and then plywood (or OSB). Or you could add drywall, green glue, OSB for the floor, instead. If you don't already have drywall hung on the ceiling of your garage, you could hang drywall on RC and get a second leaf there. My problem with these methods is... how much money are we wasting by having ridge vents and soffit vents in the outer leaf? The same can be said for beefing up the outer leaf... Is it worth the cost????

When the outer leaf cannot be completely sealed, and isolation is a top concern, then it usually means the best compromise is a three leaf system where the inner and middle leaves are extra beefy. You need to be careful not to overload the rafters though... A structural engineer needs to be brought in to tell you what you can handle without doing any structural upgrades, as well as what kinds of measures can be taken to raise the loads. Factors taken into consideration on the rafter load include the weight of the roofing material. Is it tile (heavy) or asphault composition (light)? Typically, houses are built without a lot of extra load capacity to save on construction costs... :roll: ...Even if it's asphault comp, and there's some extra load capacity, and you spend it on the studio build, bear in mind that when it comes time to reroof, then you likely won't be able to add a layer of new shingles without stripping the old ones off. My advice is to first make sure there aren't any restrictions at the city planning or homeowners' association levels to worry about (free). Then keep studying, learn as much as you can, then design a plan that will meet your needs, regardless of weight (free). Get that concept signed off by some experts here (free, donations appreciated). Then consult a local structural engineer to produce a report, informing you what you'd need to do to make it happen safely ($hundreds). Then submit everything to your city's building department for a permit ($dozens). When permit issued, build it ($thousands). --Keith :mrgreen:

I would like to see a drawing of a three leaf system that would fit these rooms. I don't know how it would look, or how to do it??????? Can someone please draw one? The nearly triangular shape makes it more difficult.

well, i know i will not be able to afford a three leaf system, both monetarily or spatially. so, it will have to be two. which means the inner leaf will be the only one able to be completely sealed with caulking. the outer leaf would be the roof which is vented and not sealed. what is this going to allow with a sealed inner leaf? low end and low mids? i grew up in a pretty quiet neighborhood and practiced drums all the time with just carpet on my bedroom walls. the neighbors knew i was a drummer and didn't complain if i kept it to just typical work hours. so my base feeling is probably somewhat naive. i feel like any kind of sealed two layer inner leaf will have to be better than that situation. but i don't want to assume... i finally installed sketchup on my mac and will post a file of what i'd like the space to look like when i'm done. until then, thanks for reading....

We may be in a futile exercise if you're saying you know that you cannot afford a three leaf system -- that's the first time anything budget-related has been raised. Designing a three-leaf system (the outermost leaf being unsealed) can be done, albeit not cheaply, by basically surrounding the room with multiple layers of drywall, firmly attached (no resilient channel), then framing the internal walls and ceiling within the existing space. Yes, that does cost money and square footage -- and it may not pass the building permit plan check stage due to the headroom limitations. In fact, I'll repeat, you really should consult with your city's building department to determine what restrictions you have. There are minimum headroom requirements: typically a certain height is required over a certain percentage of floorspace. Since your space is mostly A-shaped, that percentage may be very small, such that you may have to move those walls in to lower the square footage and thus raise the percentage that meets the headroom requirement. Without knowing what is legally allowed and what your budget is, we all (including you ;-)) are kind of going around in circles. :-) Legal and monetary constraints: let's get those defined. Obviously the laws of gravity trump all else, but the answers to the other two will tel us how we can deal with that one. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

futile? well, crap... :wink: again, i'l be be building in stages so my budget is really time/cost. i could spend a million on it but my great grand kids would have to finish it for me. so really it comes, as you say, down to space and weight (city code). as for space, my house is the only house on the street with this floor plan where they did not finish out this room. the others, which i veiwed after they were done had the same space and were included in the square footage which would lead me to beleive they were to code. i asked them not to finish mine as i'd like the control of finishing it myself. i looked at the space again while home from my travels this past weekend and got to peek under the floor above the garage. its a truss flooring system (very solid) with the ends where it meets the roof exposed (i could spray some insulation in there for thermal and acoustics if desireable. i've attached a sketchup of what i'd like the finished to look like (i only drew the interior). the soffits are just if i can find a way to soffit my dyn bm6a's (rear port questions on another thread). if not i'll just take a foot or two from that end of the room to build more trap. all the charcoal stuff is where i'd like to bass trap or use my exsisting DIY panels. i'd also still be interested to hear of ideas for doing a two leaf system with the outer leaf being the roof. i'd like to maximise the possibilities even if i can't do three leafs. http://www.bwacksforum.com/images/attic2.zip

The problem you're going to run into are the breaches in the form of soffit vents, plus general lack of airtightness. A leaf that is not solid in those terms will perform really poorly. A local acoustics engineer I consulted during my design phase once relayed a story in which he was an expert witness in a civil case on the side of a drummer who built a rehearsal space inside his home. The room was very well designed and built, except for overhead, where attic vents were a critical point of isolation failure. He said he remembered it well since it was one of the very few (only perhaps?) cases he actually lost in court. That story was instrumental in scaring me into an "overkill" mode. :roll: You were, I think, wise to elect to finish the room yourself vs. having the builder do it "on the cheap." However, you still have a lot of work ahead of you. The discovery of the trusses is an interesting one. Do you have Rod's book yet? There's a section of his book on that subject you need to read and understand in order to not make a critical/catastrophic failure. FYI, spray-in insulation generally does not help with acoustics and may under some circumstances make things worse. An exception might be using spray-in closed cell foam to merge two leaves together in order to avoid a third leaf, but I don't think that applies in your case as such a third leaf would need to remain vented. --Keith :mrgreen:

thanks sharward for all the help. i'll order the book today. i've been meaning to. also, i think as a starting point when i have some time off at home i'll take a kick and snare over and see where the room stands unfinished and what the biggest problem areas seem to be. bwack

i'm just finishing up the chapter on floors and wall construction, and i don't see anything specifically on "truss flooring systems" though he does mention them. did i miss something? :? just curious if you (sharward) wanted me to keep my eye out for something... this book is great. modes make a lot more sense now.

The one thing I wanted you to look for was the illustration showing how you can't necessarily arbitrarily put a load bearing wall (or a post) in, say, the garage below. I know you weren't necessarily planning that, but I mentioned the possible need to shore up the floor for additional weight. Obvuously, the advice would be to consult a structural engineer. --Keith :mrgreen:

Hello All, glad to see some folks with the same issues I have... Here's a link to my earlier post: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= I will be consulting a structural engineer on-site later this week and, aside from the obvious (lally columns, glu-lam beams, and sound-blocking underlayment), I will pass along any pertinent information. Obviously, the flooring is my first concern. Any feedback on my project is also greatly appreciated.