Out with the mother-in-law, in with the studio.

Let me start by saying what a great forum this is. There is a wealth of information here, and a whole slew of friendly and knowledgeable people who are more than willing to offer their assistance. I have spent many late nights perusing this site and the sae site(another fine repository of knowledge), and have just ordered Rod's book. Now that i've finished buttering you up, here's my situation. ***scroll down for short version*** OVERVIEW I have been using the mother-in-law apartment above my detached garage as a "jam" room and (sorta)recording space. Permission has been granted by my wife to take this space to the next phase-building a studio. This will be initially for personal use, but who knows what the future holds. With that in mind, i want to build this space to it's fullest capacity. I've sold a few toys, so my starting budget is around $10,000. Nothing has been done to the space yet, and i don't intend to pick up a hammer until i have a solid plan. Ideally, i would like to have a decently sized control room, and a tracking room that can still be used as a practice area capable of fitting a set of drums, couple amps, P.A., and combo organ(which will be upgraded to a Hammond and Leslie when my skills are worthy). Come to think of it, an iso booth would be really cool(but not necessary if it isn't feasible). I know that this is a lot to fit into such a small space, but i've seen some large women stuffed into some minuscule pants, so i assume anything is possible. NOISE I have been using the space(untreated), for over a year without a complaint. The nearest neighbor is about 150 feet away, she called the cops on me when we were testing the p.a. system in my backyard for my wedding, but has yet to complain about the late night jam sessions. I want to increase my isolation from the outside world(lawn mowers, subwoofers on wheels, occasional small plane or helicopter), but i'm not trying to get super crazy with it. I am more concerned with sound control between control room and tracking room. STRUCTURE The detached garage is two floors, built on a slab, 2x4 exterior walls, T-111 exterior siding, drywall inside. The second floor is supported by 2"x10"x10ft joists(northern fir), on 16" centers carried by the wall on the outside, and a 3 1/2"x15" glu-lam beam running down the center of the garage. The floor is carpet over 3/4 plywood(except the bathroom which is tile), and the ceiling is plaster with a groovadelic swirl pattern. I haven't poked any holes, but i assume insulation in walls and ceiling is fiberglass. SKETCHUP The upstairs is 19'4"x21' with a bathroom in one corner,the untiled area is a shower. I could relocate the bathroom door around the corner from its current location if necessary. All ceilings are 7'9"(lame). The placement of windows and bathroom makes it difficult for me to make anything look decent(or maybe it's because i'm horrible at sketchup). The black area on the floor of my sketchup is where the stairs come up from below. I will be covering this opening, and building a porch with an outside door. The most probable location for this door would be on the wall with the bathroom and window, as close to the corner as possible. Ideally, this door would allow easy load in and out of instruments, without going through the control room. REVIEW(SHORT VERSION) -2nd floor mother-in-law apartment above detached garage 19'4"x21' -low ceilings 7'9" -existing bathroom in corner -want decent sized control room, and big enough tracking room for practice(iso booth would be super cool) -i am no good at sketchup, so i come to the experts for advice. -budget $10,000 to start -sketchup of current condition included -if i've omitted anything, please don't hesitate to tell me Thanks in advance for any advice, assistance, or anything else you have to offer.

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Hey, congrats on your studio build! While we review the possibilities of your design, it might be a good time to consult a structural engineer to see if your upper room can support the extra weight of a studio build. Stud frames filled with fiberglass/mineral wool & covered with 2-3 layers of drywall + musos + equipment make for a much heavier than normal load. :shock: Be back in a bit, hopefully with a design to post. :wink: Aloha 8)

Aloha, Okay, two ideas for your review. :D In Rod Gervais’ book “Build it Like the Pros,” http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5670 he points out both L.W.Sepmeyer’s & M.M. Louden’s formulas most widely used in professional studios worldwide. M.M. Louden Height Width Length 1.00 1.40 1.90 7’9” x 10’8” x 14’7” G-Raj 1 (spacious) L.W. Sepmeyer Height Width Length 1.00 1.14 1.39 7’9” x 8’8” x 10’7” (kinda small) 1.00 1.28 1.54 7’9” x 9’9” x 11’9” (middle of the three) G-Raj 2 Aloha 8)

is the ceiling flat or sloped from the roof? I'm assuming the black rectangle is a set of stairs? is the top landing that small? here's an idea on layout.

Wow, you guys are fast! Thank you for taking the time to review my floor plan and throw some designs out. Let me see if i can address your questions and concerns. Kendale, i contacted a structural engineer, hopefully he will be here next week. Just for the S&G(shits and giggles)factor, i decided to enter my figures into the span calculator. Northern doug fir, 2"x10", 16" centers, #2, L/360 floor joists. I was able to practically max out the live and dead load options and get a span of 10 ft(what i have) or better. I know that this is just for rough estimates, and will wait for the structural engineers recommendation, but it makes me think it will be possible. I like your designs, that seems to be the best location for the control room, as it will enable me to put my outside door in the opposite corner. Would a corner control room be possible in that same area, or will the bathroom interfere with the layout? Gullfo, it is a flat ceiling under a peaked roof. I can't yet get into the space to see what is up there, but i'll be cutting an access hole sometime in the coming weeks. Yes the black area is the staircase with a ridiculously small landing. This is useless for my purposes as carrying anything like a 4x12 cabinet up or down them is a lesson in futility, not to mention dangerous. My intention is to remove the staircase(giving me more floorspace both upstairs and in my shop), open a hole to the outside in the opposite corner of the room and build a porch with a nice set of wide stairs, and maybe an elevator that the guy down the street keeps trying to sell me(if i ever start a business i'll already be ADA compliant, plus gear loading will be a breeze). I like your design with a corner control room, but, unfortunately, that is the only corner where a door will be feasible, and i would rather not have to load in and out through the CR. Well, i'm off to the lumberyard, and the Chateau Depot so i can start pricing supplies, and figuring out what i will need to source elsewhere. Thanks again for the help so far, and please don't hesitate to throw any ideas, questions, or demands my way.

Aloha,

Would a corner control room be possible in that same area, or will the bathroom interfere with the layout?

What is the area in the red circle? Aloha 8)

The area in the red circle is a shower. I had considered removing it, but came up with two good reasons not to. 1) the bathroom is still unfinished, the shower is brand new, and i hate to rip out something that is unused(well, maybe not a good reason, but a reason nonetheless). 2) i saw a thread either here or on recording.org where someone had installed a murphy bed kit into one wall of their studio. If i do this, i still have a usable guest house(albeit an unorthodox one), plus somewhere to sleep when i get into trouble with the missus. If the bathroom door causes any problems with layout, i can move it around the corner to the flat wall.

Aloha,

The area in the red circle is a shower. I had considered removing it, but came up with two good reasons not to. 1) the bathroom is still unfinished, the shower is brand new, and i hate to rip out something that is unused(well, maybe not a good reason, but a reason nonetheless). 2) i saw a thread either here or on recording.org where someone had installed a murphy bed kit into one wall of their studio. If i do this, i still have a usable guest house(albeit an unorthodox one), plus somewhere to sleep when i get into trouble with the missus. If the bathroom door causes any problems with layout, i can move it around the corner to the flat wall.

Okay, cool. The reason I asked was because it looks like it would just clip the shower walls by 6"-10". Aloha 8)

Yeah, that would figure...i guess that's the beauty of working with existing spaces(making things fit). I've given things some thought, and i think moving the entrance to the opposite wall will give me more flexibility in layout(plus the porch won't face the nosy neighbor's house this way). I really liked the corner layout that gullfo suggested, so i've been playing with something similar. I have tried to splay my walls 15 degrees each, just to see what my limits are, but i'm having trouble translating room measurements to oddly shaped rooms. The other confusing issue is where to use which type of construction(double walls, rc, or?). I think the more i learn and the more that i re-arrange the layout, the more my head spins. It would seem that this type of layout gives me the most effective use of the available space, plus a minimum of parallel walls. Am i going in the right direction here, or is there something totally obvious here that i'm completely missing? I also played around with the control room facing a different direction, still in the same area. I could put the porch outside the blue wall, and put the entrance door anywhere on that wall. Hopefully, when Rod's book gets here, it will answer a few of my questions. In the meantime, i'll be researching, obsessing, and dreaming. If there are any flaws in what i'm trying to do here, please, someone step in and smack me silly(actually i'm already pretty silly so you'll have to slap me beyond silly). Well, i'm off to research equipment...oh, yeah, i forgot to mention that i'll be filling my new studio with new equipment(more decisions, more researching, obsessing, and dreaming-i must be crazy).[quote][/quote]

you could also use the bath room as an additional room (like a reverb chamber or guiter amp room)... :-) depending on what is more important - control room or live room...

(Since i don't know how to write a short post, questions are at the bottom.)

gullfo wrote:

depending on what is more important - control room or live room...

I keep asking myself the same question, and i'm not sure how to answer that. I know that my intended location is less than ideal(low ceiling, second floor, existing bathroom...), and realize that everything i do will most likely involve some type of compromise. I'm not expecting to perform any miracles with this space, just trying to make the best of what i have. Having said that, i would like to be able to fit a drum kit and organ(maybe a few guitar amps)in the tracking room, and use it for small(2-3 people) jam sessions. I have been using a corner of the space for the same purpose, and have a 5 pc. kit, pa system, guitar and bass amps, small Italian combo organ, and a few mics wedged into an area about 9'x12'(give or take a foot or so). As for the control room, i want to make it large enough to give me a bit of flexibility in equipment choice as my skills(and need for toys)progress. After all that, i arrive at the same place...i have no clue which to concern myself more with. Therefore(in true compromise tradition), i would love to achieve a Zen like balance and have a decent(read usable)sized control room, and a decent sized tracking room. Then when i wake up from that dream, i will probably make the biggest rooms i can, and treat all walls and ceilings appropriately. I have decided that by cutting the corner off of the bathroom(new wall is shown in yellow), i can give myself a bit more space and lose that awful 25" door that is there now. I like the concept of the corner layout, so that is what i've been playing around with. I'm kinda getting the hang of sketchup(even though it crashes every time i try to use components), and this seems like the most effective use of space, plus best Feng Shui. Questions -What type of treatment would i use on the back CR walls? I assume a big bass trap in the corner, but what about the sides? -The design gives me a funky corner with an acute angle. Would i want to build some type of small trap here(shown in red)? -Has anyone here built or been in a corner layout, and what were your opinions? I know i can search for answers, and i have, but even though my search will return seventy-some pages, after the first three(usually) when i hit next it says no more meet my criteria. I even tried reversing the chronological order, and same thing, except oldest three pages. I'm pretty convinced that this iBook is the devil, that can be the only explanation.

you can use John's inside-out wall design to get the isolation and much of the treatment in one construct. this will help in getting the rooms balanced and reduce the extra treatments. the corners should still get something to bass trap, and the rear of the CR is a big one of those. the exposed walls can all be slats because the interior walls (between CR and live room) are sheetrock. probably slightly less isolation because of the closeness of the space between the live room and CR walls but shouldn't be a major issue. in the CR, you'll also add a cloud overhead and a couple of 1" 703 type absorpers on the sides where you would get reflections from the sidewall. after that, you might have a couple of other spots to touch up in the live room with an hanging 703 type absorber here or there (overhead or whereever you find you need it)

Thanks gullfo. I have been contemplating using inside out walls, but i'm assuming that i either have to go all inside out or all regular. If two wall join, can one be inside out, and the other one regular? Is there a way to seal the joint as effectively as a regular corner? I'm still(not so patiently)awaiting the arrival of Rod's book, so in lieu of anything more productive to do, i have been playing around with my sketchup design. I'm having trouble deciding the best way to do the side walls of the control room. Option one: If i splay them nine degrees each, i can do straight walls and slider doors. Good for minimal floor space usage, but questionable for isolation. Option two and three are just splaying the walls 12 and 15 degrees, using 32" door. Am i way off base here, should i be going a totally different direction? My head is spinning... I would like to note that these colors do not represent finished colors, i just got sick of looking at white walls. I would also like to note that i do not look like a Lego guy, but as i am unable to use components, i had to fake it the best i could for reference purposes.

g-raj wrote:

I have been contemplating using inside out walls, but i'm assuming that i either have to go all inside out or all regular. If two wall join, can one be inside out, and the other one regular? Is there a way to seal the joint as effectively as a regular corner?

no reason you couldn't - the key would be sealing them at the joint and the face of the regular wall would effectively be level with the slats. its behind the slats and drywall are studs + caulk etc.. forming the seal. you could to the 9 degree splay with sliders or the smaller doors. if you can double the walls and door you'll get more isolation but it will cost more. generally speaking exterior grade - decent quality sliders seal pretty well but all that glass will be much less isolation than the walls. you could go with the smaller doors with windows in them which will mean less holes in the walls.

As far as doubling the walls all around, would that offer increased isolation between control and tracking, or would the two small rooms at the sides act as an airlock of sorts? I still intend to have a double wall built between control and tracking, but i know that my floor(and possibly my ceiling) will be my weak points due to flanking. I don't know how overboard i should go building walls, and lose more floorspace(that i already don't have) if it will give me no extra isolation due to losses elsewhere. The only reason i considered sliders in the control room was the natural lighting they would afford through the two adjacent windows(one of which i will have to move a foot to clear the side wall. The ceiling(upon closer inspection)isn't really lath and plaster, but a swirly textured skim coat of some plaster like substance over(poorly taped)drywall. I have decided that with the number of tape seams lifting, it will all come down when the time is appropriate, and i will replace it with...i don't know yet. So i suppose this leaves(no pun intended)my floor as my weakest link in the chain. I will have to make the best of this as i have no intentions of floating a deck. After a thorough cleaning this weekend, i will tape out my designs on the floor, move some equipment around, and see if this will be too cramped. If it turns out to be, at least i'm getting quicker with sketchup.

I spent an evening this weekend with a roll of tape, marking out different layouts to try to get a feel for things. Upon doing this, i decided to go in a different direction(but almost the same as my original one), and put the control room in the opposite corner. I can still angle each wall nine degrees, and i won't need to change the bathroom wall. This also gives me more space for the tracking/jam area. I feel pretty confident that this layout is better than my previous ones, and i still only have to move one window.

and you could take advantage of the small corners on the one side to add some additional trapping for the CR...

gullfo wrote:

and you could take advantage of the small corners on the one side to add some additional trapping for the CR...

I was thinking the same thing. One of those corners will house the water heater, so i only have the top two and a half feet (i may just install a shelf for a computer and anything else noisy). The other one is about 2'6"x3'5". Would i be better off filling it completely(superchunk style), or using hangers? Would i have to design that section of wall differently to take advantage of the trapping(port, use mdf, or only one layer of sheetrock)? I assume i would have to do some extra beefing up on the exterior wall in that section if i compromise the inner wall in any way. Should i just build my walls in that corner parallel to the existing walls, and then build a conventional trap in the resulting smaller corner? Either way it seems that i'm robbing peter to pay paul...more trapping, or better isolation?...decisions, decisions... I assume that with that giant back corner available for trapping as well, the latter choice would be preferable in my case. Not easier to frame and drywall by any means, but probably the right decision(lucky me!?).

...something like this maybe...

use inside-out walls to double up the treatment and isolation properties. make the back either a large superchunks trap or put in a floor to ceiling set of hangers.

Thanks, gullfo, that jpg really helped me get a feel for the size of the space. Being unable to use components, i couldn't visualize how much elbow room i would have(even after taping the layout on the floor). Seeing some furniture in there, and the false wall kind of completed the image for me. I will be employing hangers behind that false rear wall, and probably the reverse triangle wall that John recently suggested to Orangenumerik. There are so many great bits of free advice given out every day on this forum, and i've learned so much in the few short months of scouring thread after thread, following links(and probably following links from there). I am grateful for all of the knowledgeable people taking time out of their day to help out others who probably ask the same questions you've answered a million times. You guys have the patience and good intentions of monks, and i commend you.