Studio Design Help Australia

Hi there.... if you are scratching the idea of a vocal booth and going with a one room studio, then you and I are envisioning very similar studios! Here's the design I have going in my design thread: I'm going with soffit-mounted speakers though. The idea is: the slot absorbers in the front absorb useful frequencies, and reflect the rest to the back of the room. The rear wall has heavy absorption, with diffusion.

Aloha,

In my last post I asked about another design. I was wondering more along the lines of positioning. Do you see the room setup in any other position?

In keeping with the design principles stated at the SAE website -

because you don't want rear reflections to interfere it is better to start with a longer front to back dimension than the side to side dimension. - John Sayers

Could you also assist me to understand your thought processes with the vocal booth. I see one in your designs. I'm not sure I'll actually include one anymore, so I'm just wondering what your thoughts on that are?

Depending on the "vocal sound" you're going after - whether it's a more "live" sound with a lot of room artifacts detectable or a "dryer, more intimate" sound with primarily the voice alone - and the amount of isolation you need from the ambient noise in your surrounding environment, a vocal booth can be very useful for obtaining a clean vocal track. It's important to remember that sometimes even a vocal booth itself can introduce unwanted coloration to your recordings. If you do build/use one, try to avoid having a "square box". Instead, a 4' x 5' x 7' inside dimensions work better. Also, in most cases, when using a smaller booth (like the above mentioned) a "deader approach" works better than a "livelier" one.

Also seeing as how I'm not sure about one, Vocal work will be done pretty much where the mic is. Should I put some other treatments on the two smaller walls either side of the lounge seat?? What type?

To begin with, I would suggest absorber panels as illustrated in the "Willo 1c" rendering. Keep in mind that even with these acoustic room treatments, your room may still be prone to picking up any ambient noises around you - whether it be birds/crickets chirping to passing traffic, the neighbor's kids playing, aircraft, etc. due to the open doorways, windows, etc. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Aloha Kendale,

kendale wrote:

Aloha, Here's another idea: - Scratch vocal booth - Slat absorbers left/right of mix position - Absorber panels on remaining wall surfaces Thoughts? Aloha 8)

I love it! I think this is the design I'll go with.

kendale wrote:

Depending on the "vocal sound" you're going after - whether it's a more "live" sound with a lot of room artifacts detectable or a "dryer, more intimate" sound with primarily the voice alone - and the amount of isolation you need from the ambient noise in your surrounding environment, a vocal booth can be very useful for obtaining a clean vocal track. It's important to remember that sometimes even a vocal booth itself can introduce unwanted coloration to your recordings. If you do build/use one, try to avoid having a "square box". Instead, a 4' x 5' x 7' inside dimensions work better. Also, in most cases, when using a smaller booth (like the above mentioned) a "deader approach" works better than a "livelier" one.

I'm not too musically inclined, I'm not sure what live, dry and dead actually means in terms of sounds. My wife has all the musical talent. I play drums :).

kendale wrote:

To begin with, I would suggest absorber panels as illustrated in the "Willo 1c" rendering. Keep in mind that even with these acoustic room treatments, your room may still be prone to picking up any ambient noises around you - whether it be birds/crickets chirping to passing traffic, the neighbor's kids playing, aircraft, etc. due to the open doorways, windows, etc.

As I mentioned below with JWL, I actually wanted a vocal booth but cost is a big factor. I would like a vocal booth for the reasons mentioned above, birds/crickets/kids etc. If after treating my room as per the design you have helped me with, the room will actually sound similar to a low-end specced vocal booth then I'll risk not having one and getting the occasional ambient noise and just re-record. I have a very quiet street. Comments? Also. Due to cost, doors etc. Would it matter/change the sound of the room dramatically if I didn't put absorbers above the doors/openings on the sides?? I'll put them along the actual side walls (either side of lounge).

kendale wrote:

Hope this helps,

Yes, you always do. I'm getting a clearer picture in my mind every day. :)

jwl wrote:

Hi there.... if you are scratching the idea of a vocal booth and going with a one room studio, then you and I are envisioning very similar studios! Here's the design I have going in my design thread: I'm going with soffit-mounted speakers though. The idea is: the slot absorbers in the front absorb useful frequencies, and reflect the rest to the back of the room. The rear wall has heavy absorption, with diffusion.

Thankyou for the thoughts. Yep, the designs are very similar. I'm not going to quite that extent for three reasons. This is my first studio and I'm bound to make a few mistakes. Second, I'm planning on buying a house with more land in the not too distant future so after some experience I'm hoping to build an uber studio. The house we are keeping an eye on has an awesome room just for this. third and overriding factor I have a budget somewhere around the AUD $500-00 mark. I'd actually build the booth but I don't have the budget right now and I also don't want to make it permanent. Will be included in the next one

Aloha,

I love it! I think this is the design I'll go with.

Cool. I’m glad that works for you. :wink:

I'm not too musically inclined; I'm not sure what live, dry and dead actually means in terms of sounds. My wife has all the musical talent. I play drums.

Ahhh. Perhaps these might give you a point of reference – A “live” sound would be somewhat like John Bonham’s drum sound in “Fool in the Rain” and “When the Levee Breaks,” while a “dryer” sound would be like “Black Dog.” Even dryer yet would be like the 70’s disco drum tracks on Chic’s “Dance, Dance, Dance” and “Le Freak.”

If after treating my room as per the design you have helped me with, the room will actually sound similar to a low-end spec’d vocal booth then I'll risk not having one and getting the occasional ambient noise and just re-record. I have a very quiet street. Comments?

You could try placing the mic/vocal position about 4’ from the bottom right corner with the mic facing into the corner trap/absorbers and your back facing the wall. See attached pic.

Would it matter/change the sound of the room dramatically if I didn't put absorbers above the doors/openings on the sides?? I'll put them along the actual side walls (either side of lounge).

Hard to say. Once you’ve recorded a couple of tracks you could then decide if you need more. Aloha 8)

You are a gentleman and a scholar. ;) As for the actual building of the items in the design. I have seen you brilliant master craftsmanship and I have seen John's drawings. I can grasp the concept but the actual build process has me tricked a little. Like what affixes to what, what gets built first etc. I'm not too bad with a saw, hammer etc but I'm pretty process driven so could you help with Step by Step build work flow?? Please! I'll shout you a beer next time you're in Oz or I've seen you like powertools. :) Cheers and Thanks Willo PS:- I'll post pics along the way. Will it be that obvious to me if I need more treatment after a couple of tracks. Thanks

Aloha,

I'm not too bad with a saw, hammer etc but I'm pretty process driven so could you help with Step by Step build work flow??

Here's an attempt :wink: at an animated Sketchup file of a Slat Absorber Build Sequence. Click on the "Scene" tabs at the top in sequence to give you an idea of how I approached building the units. The exact measurements are somewhat dependent on your room dimensions, if you're planning on building them in half sections or full, and on John's wall unit plans and principles. There are several threads that touch on on slat sizes, thickness, spacing and choice of wood species based on what's available in your area and budget. Perhaps a search would prove fruitful in providing how others have approached building their slat absorbers.

Will it be that obvious to me if I need more treatment after a couple of tracks.

Perhaps your wife's sound engineer can help you determine if more absorption is needed. Let me know if this works, Aloha 8)

Kendale, Thanks. It looks fantastic. I'm stuck with materials. The more I search the more I am confused. :cry: I may need help with search keywords like recommended here:-

kendale wrote:

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Try using the search function above for "window plug" or "windows." Maybe check the "stickies" sections as well as there is something on the forum that covered this awhile ago. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

The Wall Units here are awesome but generic, "insert insulation here". What do I use 703? What is 703? As far as I can tell 703 is a rigid style fiberglass insulation. I rang these guys as you linked to them in an older post, the person I spoke with said that was rockwool. As far as I can tell there is a difference between Rockwool and Fiberglass bat, so does it matter what I use? Does it have to be rigid? Having not used it before do I affix it to the frame with a screw or glue. As for wood the only one I saw was to use pine. Can I coat the wood in Lacquer or Varnish or does that affect the absorption or resonation of the unit? What is green glue? Is that what I use to seal these suckers cause I see everywhere these things need to be airtight? If green glue is not what I use to seal what do I use?? What type of fabric do I use to cover the insulation in either the slat resonators or absorber panels? Does it matter what I use? Sorry to bombard you, I really am not trying to. I really appreciate your help so far and everyones for that matter. :) Just a thought, would this forum be open to a "What is Sticky/Thread" that would have all the commonly used terms and materials for building and have a one line explanation and what it is used for? Thanks and Regards Willo EDIT & APOLOGY:- Sorry guys for sounding in a bit of a panic. I think my main fault is wanting to know about all of the stuff NOW. :oops: It is my honest opinion that there could be a little more structured area where there is a "What Is" section and a location based "Construction Materials Source" section. That said sorry. I have been doing a fair bit of research and have come up with an answer for the insulation side of things. As far as I can tell as long as it has the following density it will do the job I am after:- 2.5 - 3p/cf 35 -40 kg/m3 Rockwool or Fiberglass doesn't matter, semi -rigid or rigid is optimum. Cheers Willo

Just playing last minute devil's advocate. :twisted: Can I use Acoustic Foam Panels to substitute any of the treatments in the design??

Aloha,

Can I use Acoustic Foam Panels to substitute any of the treatments in the design??

In a nutshell, yes. You can do pretty much what you want, after all, it is your home, studio and wallet. :wink: Would I suggest it? With all due respect to your financial situation is, what your room is doing in regard to it's acoustic response, and to the reputable companies offering various acoustic foam panel treatments, maybe not. If you would click here: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html and then click on the "Acoustics" tab in left margin and then on the "Absorption" tab at the top of the page you'll find a much better explanation than I could ever offer. It may be a bit technical, but it does offer at least one view on why not. Happy reading, Aloha 8)

Thanks Kendale, Can you please have a glance over this. Ta Karl PS:- I love this site. It feels like we get to know each other over the course of everyones projects. :lol: :lol: re

Willo wrote:

Kendale, Thanks. It looks fantastic. I'm stuck with materials. The more I search the more I am confused. :cry: I may need help with search keywords like recommended here:-

kendale wrote:

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Try using the search function above for "window plug" or "windows." Maybe check the "stickies" sections as well as there is something on the forum that covered this awhile ago. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

The Wall Units here are awesome but generic, "insert insulation here". What do I use 703? What is 703? As far as I can tell 703 is a rigid style fiberglass insulation. I rang these guys as you linked to them in an older post, the person I spoke with said that was rockwool. As far as I can tell there is a difference between Rockwool and Fiberglass bat, so does it matter what I use? Does it have to be rigid? Having not used it before do I affix it to the frame with a screw or glue. As for wood the only one I saw was to use pine. Can I coat the wood in Lacquer or Varnish or does that affect the absorption or resonation of the unit? What is green glue? Is that what I use to seal these suckers cause I see everywhere these things need to be airtight? If green glue is not what I use to seal what do I use?? What type of fabric do I use to cover the insulation in either the slat resonators or absorber panels? Does it matter what I use? Sorry to bombard you, I really am not trying to. I really appreciate your help so far and everyones for that matter. :) Just a thought, would this forum be open to a "What is Sticky/Thread" that would have all the commonly used terms and materials for building and have a one line explanation and what it is used for? Thanks and Regards Willo EDIT & APOLOGY:- Sorry guys for sounding in a bit of a panic. I think my main fault is wanting to know about all of the stuff NOW. :oops: It is my honest opinion that there could be a little more structured area where there is a "What Is" section and a location based "Construction Materials Source" section. That said sorry. I have been doing a fair bit of research and have come up with an answer for the insulation side of things. As far as I can tell as long as it has the following density it will do the job I am after:- 2.5 - 3p/cf 35 -40 kg/m3 Rockwool or Fiberglass doesn't matter, semi -rigid or rigid is optimum. Cheers Willo

PS:- Do the treatments have to go the full height of the wall? Will it suffice to go to the top of the window frame for example?

Aloha, I'll try to answer each question as best as I can. :wink:

What do I use 703? What is 703? As far as I can tell 703 is a rigid style fiberglass insulation.

"703" refers to Owens Corning 703 (OC 703) – Semi-rigid boards for use on equipment, vessels and air conditioning ductwork. 705 – A high strength rigid board for use on chillers, hot and cold equipment, and heating and air conditioning ductwork where high abuse resistance and good appearance are required. An alternative to OC 703 could be something like ROXUL AFB™ (Acoustical Fire Batt) a batt insulation product designed specifically for application in wall/floor systems where acoustical performance and fire resistance are the primary concerns. This non-combustible lightweight product has excellent acoustical dampening properties and is dimensionally stable which makes it ideal for friction fit into wall partitions and system applications from party walls to plant/manufacturing walls. The product is chemically inert which means that it will not promote corrosion. The AFB product comes in a number of thicknesses to meet the requirements of both retrofit and new construction applications. There are other companies that manufacture similar products that would work as well. What you need to look for is a “semi rigid insulation, with a density of 2.5 – 3 pcf (pounds per cubic foot). A semi rigid/rigid insulation will hold is shape better than say, the “pink fluffy type insulation” often used in insulating attics and walls.

Having not used it before do I affix it to the frame with a screw or glue.

There have been several approaches when installing the insulation using either of the following: Heavy duty cord/wire/nylon strapping fastened with screws/staples to support the insulation in place until the cloth facing, slats (when appropriate) and back panel can be assembled.

As for wood the only one I saw was to use pine. Can I coat the wood in Lacquer or Varnish or does that affect the absorption or resonation of the unit?

Pine works and is fairly easy to work with, although it does have a tendency for leaking a bit of sap from time to time as well as having being somewhat “knotty.” Basically, you can use what is available in your area and fits in your budget. Yes, you can use a light coat of lacquer or varnish finish. Be sure to inspect each piece of lumber for warp, crown, thickness, knots and potential sap issues, as they may hinder any finish you may choose to use.

What is green glue?

Green Glue is a damping material, it's purpose is to raise the damping of structures in which it is included. Here's their link for much more info - http://www.greengluecompany.com/impactOfGreenGlue.php

Is that what I use to seal these suckers cause I see everywhere these things need to be airtight? If green glue is not what I use to seal what do I use?

No, this would not be a good choice for sealing. What is recommended is "Acoustic Caulk" which is different from your garden variety bath and tub caulk. Here's a link to read up on it - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2045

What type of fabric do I use to cover the insulation in either the slat resonators or absorber panels? Does it matter what I use?

In several different ways, yes, it does matter. What you need to look for is an acoustically transparent material (as in, if you can blow air through it, it's probably okay) like say, burlap; and is treated with a flame resistant process. If the material is aesthetically pleasing as well, it may help the creative process. Here's one example- http://www.silentsource.com/acousticore ... hart1.html

2.5 - 3p/cf 35 -40 kg/m3 Rock wool or Fiberglass doesn't matter, semi -rigid or rigid is optimum.

Basically, yes. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Yes, Yes, Yes. :lol: YOu are a gun and I appreciate the help. Pretty much answered all questions. The only one left is about the height of the treatments.

Willo wrote:

PS:- Do the treatments have to go the full height of the wall? Will it suffice to go to the top of the window frame for example?

I'll be starting to build soon. I'll start a photo thread when I do. One last thing came to mind. Can I use Construction Ply rather than MDF for Absorbers?? Cheers Karl

Aloha,

Do the treatments have to go the full height of the wall? Will it suffice to go to the top of the window frame for example?

Top of the window frames should be fine, provided that's at least a couple of feet above your ears @ mix position.

Can I use Construction Ply rather than MDF for Absorbers??

I'm not sure what "Construction Ply" is like in your area, but if you do go with ply, I would go with 3/4" (at least one side finish sanded) [rough side in] for a couple of reasons: - Both MDF & ply will resonate at some point/frequency [not desirable], but the thicker the material used, the lower the resonance.[better] - Since this will be a part of your studio's "furniture" so to speak, unless you like the "rustic look" a finish sanded, lacquered/varnished surface looks better/more professional. You may want to avoid pressure treated ply/lumber as they sometimes cause skin irritations in some individuals. Aloha 8)

Kendale your Modular Slat Absorber Build Sequence SKp was outstanding. I wonder if we could get a sticky for that kind of thing and anyone with the time and knowledge could add other sketch ups for other kinds of treatments. I think this would help a lot of people and also cut down on the number of questions that are repeated. I found that much easier than photos or diagrams in books to get my head round cheers Alan

medboyle wrote:

Kendale your Modular Slat Absorber Build Sequence SKp was outstanding. I wonder if we could get a sticky for that kind of thing and anyone with the time and knowledge could add other sketch ups for other kinds of treatments. I think this would help a lot of people and also cut down on the number of questions that are repeated. I found that much easier than photos or diagrams in books to get my head round cheers Alan

Alan, I second that. It was nothing short of excellent and a sticky would be fantastic. Cheers Karl

Aloha, Thanks guys, I'll check into it. Aloha 8)

Hey Guys, It's been a long time between drinks but I'm back. My wife and I had a baby girl in October and the DAW part of the build cost more than I expected as I upgraded all my server stuff for the storage of Pro Tools stuff. Anyways, the Studio (components) have been put together. Although I measured the room and included it in my original Sketchup, the room seems smaller in real life. Here are some pics of the final product. I'd like some help with some treatment given the real life pics as the room needs to be multi purpose eg: Study/Bedroom/Studio. I would like some help with treatments that have a very small footprint in terms of taking space and hitting my wallet. Cheers Willo

BUMP.........

RPG makes a clear panel diffuser and clear panel helmholtz type absorption. you could straddle the window corner to preserve the light and add bass trapping top and bottom. http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5184/examplesquareroomlayoutwa9.th.jpg

Hi Glen, I opened the picture, although I'm not sure it represents the layout of my room. My original sketchup drawing is a very accurate representation including measurements. The reason the room is layed out like that is because in rela life when I put everything in, the room was smaller than first thought spatially. The studio can not take up the whole room, it is required as a guest bedroom and study as well as the studio. The other area will also serve well as an area for voice recording. Cheers Willo PS:- Thank You for your reply. Greatly appreciated. I will be making a donation this pay day as I have had some invaluable advice from here. PS:- The pictures are sort of in the wrong order it would be better to look at them from bottom up. The bottom is from the door in the corner. Then I have included a landmark in each pic to get perspective. CHeers

nope the drawing was a quick example of corner placement. i'll try to look over your room details tonight.

gullfo wrote:

nope the drawing was a quick example of corner placement. i'll try to look over your room details tonight.

Sorry :( I apologise, didn't realise. I actually just thought that now as I was taking another look. Are these panels expensive?? I am almost bankrupt after building the whole room :)

if you build them yourself the cost can be reasonable. commercial products cost more but someone has to pay for the engineering, manufacturing and warranty of the products. building it yourself means learning about the science and engineering as well as construction - but its a topic that has a lot of free information available, and often on the manufacturer sites like GIK Acoustics, Real Traps, and others. John also has a number of "wall unit" treatments which are more complex to build but have a number of possibilities for your space.

gullfo wrote:

if you build them yourself the cost can be reasonable. commercial products cost more but someone has to pay for the engineering, manufacturing and warranty of the products. building it yourself means learning about the science and engineering as well as construction - but its a topic that has a lot of free information available, and often on the manufacturer sites like GIK Acoustics, Real Traps, and others. John also has a number of "wall unit" treatments which are more complex to build but have a number of possibilities for your space.

Thankyou Glen, Can you perhaps suggest options from both avenues eg:- Commercial and off this site. Cheers Karl

i think i just did :wink: