Please Help me - Building My Studio With Noise Isolation! ;)

Hey all, again many thanks for the input. I will start with Steves comments. First and foremost you wont piss me off with being upfront with your opinons and suggestions. I value them based on your experience, and take them seriously. You, Keith and Rod KNOW what your doing, I dont. Thats why I am here,,,, to learn. :wink: As far as my Bro in Law and his Brothers, they are Italian Red Neck Mafia lookin guys (if you can imagine such a mix) who can build things amazingly well. (as far as craftsmanship on woodworking etc) they also build additions on houses etc all the time,,BUT they ARE NOT experienced or claim to be in building something as specialized as a Studio with its acoustics and isolation factors. So I agree with you 110% on your comments. Thats why I am here to learn for both me and them. They are the type that will swing the hammer and build the walls etc, exactly how you ask them to without question or interuption. They in no way know what it takes to build a Studio, but will be lined up for when I say, I need these walls framed, or I need this drywall hung etc (and do it for free,,,or for many beers at the end of the day lol). Thats what their role will basically be. When they make the comment of "under roof within a couple weeks" they are talking the outer shell and framing (after the foundation and floor is done) and main roof on and shingled. The basic exterior structure. ;) My role is to be the logistics man to get on here and ask you guys for advice and input so I know what needs done. So far you all have been a great help. My wife said "man these guys dont mess around, your not just going to have an addition built just for the band to practice in, and record once in a while,,,your going to have the real deal>" lol :lol: I laughed and said,,,looks that way!! (and I love every minute of it!!) Anyway Steve, thanks again for the input and insight, I will take every point into consideration.

My point is, speed is NOT your friend here. Neither is "experience", if it causes things to be built in the "standard" way instead of the "acoustic" way. You have relatively close neighbors and a serious need for isolation; this means you MUST pay attention to EACH AND EVERY detail in your construction, or you will NOT like the results.

I understand this....but damn it tough. LOL I just want to bust into it and make it happen. lolol I was never one with patience, :evil: but I will do it right with this project and take my time. :wink: Rod,,,I ordered your book over a week ago (and again I am impatient) but last night I FINALLY got the "your book was shipped, expect it between 5 and 15 business days" I ordered it off an online site (maybe Amazon, I dont remember) but I can wait till it arrives. I told the family, when it comes, I'll send them on a vacation, because I wanna read it totally uninterupted. ;) lol As far as your comments, I will absolutely check with the Borough to see what they require. I know they can get strange about this kind of stuff, depending on what day it is, being I was the Fire Chief of this town for 18 years. I worked with them all the time, and some of them are screwballs with attitudes at times. :) I think for no other reason, thats why I should hire a professional builder who knows all the bases to check, to be sure, then do what I can myself to save a couple dollars (along with the Red Neck Mafia) with maybe him supervising the project. :lol: I bet you guys cant wait to see the pictures as this unfolds. You'll be yellin at me daily (which I am looking forward to) Least I know it will be done right if thats the case. ;) Then your all invited over for a monster dinner on the grille with plenty of liquid refreshments (but your not walking into the new Studio, cause you'll find where I maybe took a shortcut or two, and then kick my butt about it. LOL) Seriously...thanks as always for your help and advice. If I can keep you three helping me, then also get John to post, I will be in the best hands ever, and confident that the extra money I am sure I'll spend will be absolutely justified and worth it. You guys are great!! Thanks Aj

Well.....its starting to unfold sloooowly. :lol: :D I finally read the books, and followed on here as far as everyone suggestions and opinions as best I could, and I think I am close to ready to try and tackle this project. :shock: Lots has changed since my first post where I thought I had an idea what I was doing,,,but obviously didnt. :lol: :lol: Anyway, last week I got together with the Borough and their Codes Officer and went over the drawings I had made. I told them these will change a little as far as some interior walls etc. They answered a zillion code questions I had, but obviously were not sure on the ones that pertained to "studio building" techniques. Rod, you were correct as far as all those inspections that I will need (as I knew you would be) Thanks for the heads up. Anyway, the good news is,,,,The Borough approved my Zoning Permit Application already, and also we spent about an hour looking over the drawings which (with a couple adjustments) they said they would probably approve for the project. I currently now have my building permit submitted, and they said they should have an "ok" on that by end of the week. :D Also, the bank approved (and I settled yesterday) on the loan for this project. :lol: I had an excavator come out yesterday just to give me an estimate on the digging of the footers. I should get that back today he said. His company also can do the block work and pour the pad if I want them to. I have a home builder friend from my church who said he will oversee this project from the basic building standpoints (make sure I put the studs up before the drywall etc...lol :lol: :lol:) but he has no idea obviously about what it takes to build "A Studio". He and I both understand that. In trying to get better ideas on expenses, I also had a plumber friend come in and look over the plans for the plumbing of the bathroom, and also installing an HVAC system. They will have to dig under the slab of my Florida room to get the pipes into the basement to tie in, which stinks, but its the only/closest place to get to other feeds and drains. :evil: Anyway,,,I got my first (of many I am sure) shock when he gave me a "friends estimate" of $7000.00 for the plumbing (including the fixtures) and a conventional heat pump HVAC system. This would include everything and everything installed. He and I went back and forth and I think he can get it down a little more in price. I told him make it $5,000.00 LOL :lol: Anyway, here is one more place where I need the advice from you guys. The excavator said he can get the footers dug and the pad poured yet before winter, but according to the weather its supposed to freeze out next week>?>? My builder friend recommended I just wait till Spring to get started since Mister Winter is already knockin at the door, and the concrete shouldnt be exposed to freezing temps while being poured and setting up etc. It would then just sit there all winter anyway because i am not going to frame in the snow. The framing is planned for Spring. The excavator (who has a great reputation in the area for his work) said not to worry as long as it dosent snow soon. So what would you guys do?? I am thinking of just playing it safe and waiting till spring to get started. But some say, I might as well get the footers and pad poured and get that done since that wont change as far as my designs. Its been in the high 30's to low 50's here in PA this week. And finally, I have to work today and tomorrow night, both 16 hour shifts with City Fire, so even though I read Rods book once, I have it in the Jeep and plan to re-read it once again. Since this is now going to become a reality, I ask please for all your input along the way. I guess this is the real deal time and I certainly dont want to make any huge mistakes along the way. Again, understanding this room will be used as dual purpose room, band rehersals for a 6 piece band (about once a week) and also obviously for recording. BUT it also has to be able to be converted to a usable family room later if we sell the place, or I relocate the Studio. That part, although maybe hard to factor in, is important with all this. I will post my latest plans (which are VERY different from the originals) on here tomorrow. If you would or could, please start tearing them apart so when spring comes and the hammers start to swing, I will be ready. These drawings will be my normal basic drawings because I cant figure out Sketchup (spent HOURS with it) :evil: I can make the basic walls, but cant add models, furniture, textures or different pitched rooflines etc. I am fairly good with Photoshop and Smart Draw, but I just cant get the hang of Sketchup 5 (which I bought) :evil: (it does throw up a "load error" when booting, maybe thats it. I just havent reinstalled it yet) OK..I am off to work and fight fires and read Rods book again between runs. lol Now that this is a signed deal, and the funds are sitting there, and the permits are getting approved, I am getting real nervous!! :oops: :D Thanks again guys AJ

Congratulations, AJ -- looks like you're well on your way to a good, safe, careful start. --Keith :mrgreen:

Congrats AJ. Use this time between now and next spring wisely, and learn as much about the construction techniques, and all the other info here on the site. You probably won't regret waiting until spring. In fact, you'll probably save yourself a lot of time and money doing so and doing it right the first time around. :D

You'll want to make sure that your permit won't expire before you have a chance to get your first inspection. Here in Sacramento, permits expire six months after issuance, and each inspection causes the expiration date to be moved six months from then. So, in my case, as long as I get an inspection every six months or less, I'm fine. My city also allows one courtesy six month extension, which I already took advantage of -- my concrete forms inspection took place more than six months after my permit was issued. The ramifications of allowing a permit to expire (again, in my case) can be significant. In order to reinstate the permit, I'd have to pay a fee equal to half the initial permit and plan check fee (about $150), and then I'd be subject to be in compliance with any new codes that went into effect after my permit was issued. In my case, there are some -- mostly related to energy efficiency. Getting into compliance on things that are already partially built could become problematic, depending on what changes were made to the codes. For these reasons, if you decide to wait until Spring to build, you'll probably want to talk with your permit office to strategize on this. They may advise you to wait until the spring to get your plans approved. In fact, you may learn so much between now and then that your plans may change significantly more than you think. On the other hand, they may be privy to upcoming code changes that could have a detrimental impact on what you intend to do. Have fun with that decision. :) Stirring things up... as usual... ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Hi AJ - I thought I'd toss out a couple comments.. 1) I did the staggered stud routine and now wish I hadn't. Your decision on double wall is the right way to go. 2) I'd wait until spring to dig. I dug in November and watched the rain fill my excavation every other day. I was out 4 or 5 times a week with the sump pump draining the swamp (pretty depressing)... constant mud... the wife was elated. Just make sure you have your people lined up for concrete and framing in the spring and it won't be so bad. 2a) Your concrete reinforcement should be centered (heightwise) in your slab. Obviously it doesn't have to be exact, but concrete guys are notorious for just letting it sit on top of the sand and then pouring. Don't do that! I don't know how thick your slab is but if it's less than 5" thick I'd certainly consider making thicker. I made mine 6" thick with a monster stiffener all the way around. I'm very happy with it... I put my #4 and #5 rebar at 12" o.c. both ways, I have no cracking. If you use a pumper truck, don't let them discharge all their waste water into your pour. Be prepared to tell them where to dump it. Have a place picked out because they WILL dump it! 3) I can't see your post from here for your final wall makeup... but on the outside you've got stucco the OSB and studs. I would consider a bead of QuietGlue ($10) between the studs and the OSB. (Save the Green Glue for the inside.) Also put caulk or sealant on the top and bottom edge of your blocking between rafters. If not the dampening glue on the studs, perhaps a layer of drywall on the inside face of the OSB, cut to fit between studs. 4) I ran my stucco all the way up between my rafter tails. I'm not done with the inside of my walls yet. Time will tell if it was a good idea or not. 5) For windows, it may be easier to put in the headers now. You can always frame inside them and treat it like a solid wall if you want... but the rough framing would be done for later on. Or you can build a two-pane sound window with dark glass on the outside (that doesn't open) and solid wall on the inside. 6) Regarding your doors, figure out now what kind of threshold and soundproofing you are going to do. (I wish I had.) It will dictate some wall and stud locations. good luck. creatch

Once again thanks everyone for the awsome responses. I learn more each day. :wink: Steve, I will check, but I think our permits are good for a year once issued. But I will confirm this and follow your suggestions. Creat, Yes I will be doing the double walled construction. I read on here others who didnt buy the staggered stud construction either. Also, I was initially looking at 6" slab, but then after talking to codes (again who does not know anything about building studios) but said, "You'll be fine with 4" as long as the weight of the contrete is up to par (I think he said 4000# or 4500# concrete>?) But after reading your post, I just made my mind up for at least 5" maybe 6" thick. :wink: Here is a question, and I couldnt find the answer in Rods book last night. In the book it talks about constructing your own windows or buying from Overhead etc,,,but I couldnt find anything about a reference to any "over the counter" windows, and how good or bad they are (Anderson Windows for example) Reason I am asking is, I was wondering if I would lose a bunch of my isolation, if I went ahead and just installed these double pane over the counter windows during the building process in the exterior walls??? :?: I wouldnt break the integrity of the interior (room in the room) walls in the tracking room, but on the outside walls only. That way, the windows would already be built in, and done with. Then later if conversion is needed, I will just put holes in interior walls and make them box type windows with a little framing and trim. If I do this, I do plan to totally seal around the windows and their frames etc. The wife said she would just put curtins over them in the meantime, so your not looking into studs from the outside. :D Also my latest design, which I will put up after I get a bit of sleep, it shows that I am building the building, then the tracking room ONLY I have it built totally decoupled with room within room construction for isolation. The rest of the building (control room, loft etc) is standard single wall build. Will this idea work, or does the whole place have to be double walled?? (I dont plan on loud mixdowns ect in the control room or loft area, so sound isolation isnt an issue there as much. I hope its ok that I ask all these questions, because again, I want to do it right, plus I want/need to keep the wife happy with the cosmetic results, since she is supporting this project whole heartedly so far. :lol: (example, her and the neighbors were discussing this, and she/they want matching vinyl siding (to match the house) on the exterior now instead of Stucco. We discussed this breifly before about a possible vibration issue or concern with siding. Is that a huge and real issue?? or just one of those "what ifs"?? Would siding create another leaf>?>? :?: Thanks again to everyone, and I am off for some sleep. It was a long night. I will try to get the latest drawing up later today. Oh yea,,,and I think I will just wait on any construction till Spring, and bug you guys on here in the meantime to get this thing the best it can be (for a home studio). :D edit: Creat: I just re-read also about your door comments. I was planning on double solid core doors between the control and tracking rooms. Also Codes advised me that I have to have another (2nd) way out of the tracking room, therefore I need an exterior door added in the mix somewhere. I was planning on a solid metal entry door>? But the wife wants a sliding door installed to the rear of the tracking room instead. I am afraid any isolation will be gone if I do that. :? Or is there a way??? Thanks again. AJ

Not much time this morning, so a couple of quick thoughts... The slab I poured is 6" thick and I used #4 rebar 12 o.c. in addition to fibermesh. That concrete is perfect. 8) I'm going to officially recommend that you wait until the spring because you can use the following months to make final decisions about your layout. Since you'll most likely be doing double walls with independent ceilings, you should have deep haunches in the slab under your heavy walls. If you pour your slab now, then decide to move your walls, your haunches (if you do any) won't align with your walls. You also haven't talked at all about doing an isolated slab design, which is covered in Rod's book. I'm not saying you need that, but if you pour in a hurry now, you won't have that option later. Finally, I'm afraid I'm going to vote "no" on the vinyl siding. :( I understand the desire to match the house. However, vinyl siding is lightweight and has a lot of air behind it, so it could be argued that it might act as a third leaf. I'm especially concerned that it might rattle, vibrate, and hum in sympathy with the low-end frequencies taking place inside the studio! :shock: If it were clapboard siding, I'd think differently... Perhaps you could do clapboard, which from a slight distance would look the same as (or, more than likely, better than) the vinyl siding on your house. I think there's less risk of clapboards (firmly attached to the framing and each other) resonating than with lightweight vinyl siding panels loosely assembled as prescribed by the manufacturers. Be prepared for additional expense, though, as I'm sure real clapboard siding is more expensive than imitation clapboard vinyl siding. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, I Borough just called and approved the Building Permit. (they charged $266.00 for all the permits if that means anything :D ). This is for The Zoning Permit, The Building Permit, Electrical Permit, Plumbing Permit & HVAC Permit. I asked about it expiring, they said its good for 6 months (as you stated) and with a letter I can get an extension if need be. They dont do the "auto extensions" upon their inspections :cry: . I am still tweaking my ideas and drawings, and I told the Borough some changes will be made between now and this Spring. But shouldnt be anything major. (All the permit stuff,,,,lumber size, trusses, concrete slab, insulation, footers, HVAC, plumbing etc should all be the same) As far as the drawings, when I get them done I will get them posted. John made a suggestion or comment recently about my "loft" concept, and just keeping the whole downstairs open for more space, and having the control room upstairs in the Loft area, so I am playing with that idea now as well. :wink: I am liking it alot, except the running up and down the stairs for everything while rehersing or recording. But man would that make the room much bigger and more conversion friendly. :wink: I still need input on installing the "over the counter" brand windows on the exterior walls, during the building process, or if that will ruin any isolation I created to that point? :?: I will probably have 2 sets of drawings/ideas posted tomorrow morning after work, (the original, and the one keeping the whole downstairs open and control room in the Loft) then we can hopefully start tearing them apart and making it work. My plans are to now break ground in mid March of 2007. Man I wish I had Sketchup working, and knew how to use it. :oops: some of you guys have amazing results with Sketchup and I wish I had that skill, knowledge and talent. My drawings seem so lame. lol Thanks again, and talk to you tomorrow with some drawings posted. :wink: AJ

I just received the estimate for the following: (I know this would vary in different areas and with different projects, but maybe some with experience could tell me if this is possibly in line or not). If not, maybe it will at least give some ideas as to costs for things like this to be done>? :shock: Again, this is for a 18ft wide by 32ft long square building/addition (the Studio). Job Estimate October 28, 2006 Scope: 32’ x 18’ x 32” addition Dig Footers & Remove Debris (this is currently covered with a brick paver patio, and also has a large tree stump on the middle of it. Also all the flower beds are lined with 6 x 6 railroad ties which will all be removed) Equipment time and Labor = $1,035 Stone for foundation plus delivery = $265 Footers Concrete and Labor for footers = $888 (Isnt this just a matter of basically dumping concrete 6" deep (per code) into the dug footers for them to then lay the block off of?) Block Blocking up foundation = $1059 (3 walls 32ft X 18ft X 32ft - 8" block and 4 courses high with "L" block on top for pad) Back Fill & Ready for Concrete Pad Equipment time and Labor = $840 Concrete for pad = $1,727 (this is to include fibermesh in concrete) Total = $5,814 *** Rock is an extra *** I am just throwing this out there as we go. I am still trying to make drawings (although they will look rather simple) that are easy to understand. Again, I like the control room in the loft idea, and as I said what I dont like would be the consistant running up and down steps, but I also realized now that if I do that, I would have to decouple the complete Loft from the building then as well since the stick built shed dormer roof design thats going to be built over the loft will be attached to the exterior walls. This will make for ALOT more double wall construction. Right?? :oops: Newest drawings to come later today. I am trying to draw this room(s) with the control room loft so it shows all the double construction that would be needed. As much as I love the idea and all the then open space on the first floor, I lose alot of room and it will take much more construction to make it happen. :evil: I'll post both versions or drawings, and then we can decide. HA HA,,,and to think when I first started these postings on here a few months back,,, I wanted this all to be done by October of this year!! haha :lol: :lol: Yea right!!! :oops: Thanks as always, AJ

Here are the drawings I came up with thus far. (also the ones I submitted for the building permit approval) Even though I stress 'easy conversion" later of the room, I still am going to do the major things needed as recommended on here to accomplish the best sound isolation and hopefully interior sound within the tracking room. I worked with fully opening the first floor and putting the control room all upstairs (which was a great idea) but the roof line over the loft changes from trusses to stick (2x10) built as a shed dormer type roof, and when working out all the decoupling the was needed from the loft and the rest of the building, it seemed like a nightmare. (below is a picture of what I was up against) Also here is the revised outline thus far (if your bored and want to read it) with what I am planning to do (sorry its long winded) I am just trying to cover all the bases for being a rookie in construction. All input is wecome and requested. Again, I just want to do this right, but have to be able to afford it, and keep it able to be converted as well. Thank you AJ Proposed studio plans 1- The studio will be designed as a home recording studio that will be built with the possibility of a later conversion into a family/great room area. 2- Studio is proposed to be 18ft wide x x32ft deep, and it will have a second floor loft area which will be 16ft wide by 13 ft deep. It will be built and viewed as an extension of the garage itself within its framing and location. 3- The studio will be attached as “an addition” onto the house, instead of a separate building. This is due to recommendations from the borough, and the variances needed to do otherwise. The only common wall with the house will be the rear garage wall (side a of the addition). 4- Attention and construction has to be based on the fact that the one neighbors house, which is only 20ft away from proposed studio site (side b). Isolation must be the primary factor with building this room. There will be only 1 solid metal entry door on that side (side b) of the studio. Otherwise it will be kept solid, but there will be framing for future doors and windows if/when converted into a standard family room. 5- The studio will have a “box in box” type construction (room within a room, totally “uncoupled” as suggested) for the best possible sound isolation. 6- The studio exterior walls will be framed out of 2x6x8 wood studs. The interior walls with be framed with 2x4x8 wood studs, it will be framed straight wall construction. There will not be staggered studs on the 2x6’s. 7- The studio will have scissors type truss roof over the tracking room, and stick built shed dormer roof built over the loft / control room area. This will allow having a high peaked roof (interior ceiling) in the tracking room that should be about 15ft high at the peak. The loft will then have approximately an 8ft ceiling in it. The control room will have an 8ft ceiling as well. 8- The current garage roof is 18ft high with a steep 9/12 pitch. The roof on the studio will have the same pitch over the tracking room to match the garage, and will have a much less pitch over the loft where the shed type dormer roof will be built. 9- The walls on sides c & d will be framed out for the installation of a sliding door (center side c) and windows as in the drawings. Some of these windows will not be installed upon the building of the studio. That option will be reserved for when/if the building is transformed into family/great room. 10- For mass, and to help with isolation of sound, the studio will have at least 2 layers of 5/8” drywall on all the interior walls and ceiling areas of the tracking room. These layers will be installed in an alternating fashion so the joining seams do not line up (first layer will be up and down, the second will be sideways, or the sheets will simply be staggered. 11- The studio will have a tracking “live” room (16ft wide x 17ft deep), also a separate control room (16ft wide x 13ft deep). Over the control room will be a mixdown loft with basically the same dimensions as the control room. Both loft and control room will be totally de-coupled from the tracking room as will the rest of the building as well. 12- The studio will be built on a 6” concrete slab. No floating floors at this point, (but possibly an isolated slab between the tracking room and control room area) this floor will be reinforced using #4 rebar 12" o.c., Along with fibermesh in the concrete to further reduce the chances of cracking. It is being considered that this floor will then be finished to a marble type finish using acid staining. There will then just be area throw rugs used. 13- There will be no drum riser built within the tracking room. 14- The studio will have solid core doors used throughout all the sound areas of this building. These doorways are to be sealed doorways, around the door perimeter, and thresholds under the doors for sound isolation. 15- The area above the tracking room ceiling will be a “sound lock” area to help aquire the best sound isolation possible. 16- In order to keep the room “easily transformable” for later use, only the interior tracking room wall (side d) will be slightly angled on a center inward peak, so it’s not parallel with the side a, b or c interior tracking room walls. Also the 2 walls between the control room and tracking room will be angled. 17- The sides b & c walls will be the only flat straight surfaced walls. This is also for later ease, to build and install box areas for the already framed windows on those sides. 18- There will be a double glass constructed studio window between the tracking room and the control room. The window panes may be angled as recommended for sound reflection. The disected wall diagram for this studio’s walls and ceilings will be: (exterior to interior): ** Stucco or siding on outside face **10ft house wrap barrier around structure **Double layer of osb 7/16 exterior sheeting **2x6x8 exterior wood stud wall framing ** Unfaced insulation within the exterior 2x6 wall ** 3" air gap **2x4x8 interior wood stud wall framing **Interior wall outside face will be left exposed for air gap **2 layers of 5/8 sheetrock ** All tracking room walls, the drywall sheets will be “green glued” together **All seams will be sealed with acoustical caulking Interior walls will then be painted (Also note: there will be broadband absorption panels (4x8 703 framed panels) throughout the studio and corner bass traps as well. (understanding this is not for isolation, but rather absorption purposes as needed) 19- The hvac will be a separate heat pump 1.5 ton hvac system feeding into the addition (probably piped and vented from the outside, through the garage loft area (side a wall) and thus not having to breech any part of the (side b) wall (the neighbor’s side). The unit will sit in the existing garage loft and also outside as designed. The interior ductwork will be ran overhead, and there will be 2 sends and 2 returns for the addition. This unit will also supply fresh air in and out of the studio as needed and dehumidify as well. 20- There will most likely be a “sound decoupling substance” put between all the walls and the floor itself to help isolate sound transmission. Sill seal will also be used per codes. 21- Green glue will be used between every sheet of drywall within the tracking room area. This special glue is designed specifically to reduce sound transmission. It will be applied at 1 tube per 4x8 sheet of drywall. OK...what am I forgetting>?? :oops: :lol: (You're forgetting my earlier lesson in editing a Word doc - hilight the text, click Format, Change Case, and choose Sentence case :wink: ) John, I was going to try to put up my skectup drawing of this design, but trust me, you dont want to see that (unless you want a good laugh). :oops: Thanks again guys, and any and all input is more then welcome. AJ The pictures below, the top 2 with color are the ideas based on one large room below and the control room upstairs. Again, I am not sure if I could build this and keep things isolated without losing too much space in Loft area. The rest of the pictures below those 2 are the original drawing ideas)

I'll have to go back and look at all your other postings, just want to address the window thing before it's too late - do NOT buy "over the counter" windows til you understand fully the mass-air-mass principle - virtually all "normal" windows these days are intended for "normal" house installation, and are "energy conservation" oriented. This means that virtually all will have DOUBLE panes of glass of some kind or other, either a 1-piece sealed double pane with inert gas inside, or something else; but ALL will have 2 masses involved, and nowhere NEAR a wide enough air space between these two WIMPY masses to make much of a sound barrier. IF you need SERIOUS sound isolation in windows, you have very little choice but to either spend $5k or more EACH at Overly or a similar manufacturer, or find a local glazier and have custom panes cut or ordered and then place them far enough apart in separate frames to accomplish a barrier that is as good as your wall... Steve

Thanks Knight,,,,,well 5K each per window is way out of the budget for me, so I guess I will just frame for windows to be installed down the road, and for now I will just cover over the framed areas. Next question,,,,,Will the air space above the tracking room (room in room) will that air space serve as a sound lock type area? And will that help with Sound Isolation? And I am to understand that the insulation I use for under the actual roof (between the rafters/trusses) is to also be unfaced? Correct? If I put up faced, thats another leaf then correct?? (My Codes guy suggested blown in insulation in that area, but that obviously wont work for "up" in the rafters>?>?) And finally, in the loft area, which will be totally uncoupled from the tracking room, I can use regular windows there to the outside correct?? The Loft area (as well as the control room) isnt double walled because I have the tracking room seperately isolated on its own, with room in room construction. I met with my building consultant yesterday after Church, he said that IF the excavator can, and wants to do the footers, and slab within the next 2 weeks, to go ahead and now do it. (weather has been nice lately, but as we know it can change in a moments notice). Anyway, I have resigned to the fact of waiting till Spring, but now he says, with only a 6 month valid building permit (without having to go through the extension process) that I should get that part done maybe now and out of the way. Then this Spring I can start framing right away. He said the concrete slab can sit with snow on it all winter and it wont hurt anything. Do you guys agree?? Thanks as always, and I hope these questions arent too out of line. I do search, and look through other posts, but there is just so many of them and i always then get side tracked on other cool posts to read while searching. :? :lol: :lol: Thanks again AJ

Air space above tracking - this all follows mass-air-mass construction, so if you have mass for your inner ceiling, then insulated air space, then mass for your roof, you're DONE. Things that improve isolation (given these conditions) are more mass in either leaf, wider air gap, insulation density (optimum is around 2.5 PCF). Insulation should be unfaced, with the possible exception of innermost batts if they are touching the inner ceiling layers - if you were in Florida then the ONLY vapor barrier should go to the OUTSIDE - in northern states it goes to the inside. There is only a minimal concern that paper backing would do much as far as acoustics (3-leaf) but you do NOT want a second vapor barrier ANYWHERE or you'll end up with rotted construction. Loft area - depends on what ELSE you'll have for sound barrier. If you'll already have 2 heavy leaves of mass, then the lighter your windows the better (and the further from your sound wall the better) - if that glass will be one of your two leaves of mass between inside and outside, then it WILL need to be heavy. No problem letting your concrete winter over, as long as it's poured by someone who knows what your locale needs as far as air entrainment, etc - Steve

Steve, I requested a quote from the concrete people for a 6" thick pad. These people are convinced, to the point of telling me I am crazy, that a 4" thick pad, with the #4 Rebar and the Fibermesh is more then enough to meet my needs. (Again, I realize they dont build recording studios) I try to tell them that the 6" is probably for sound isolation more then anything, but they say 6" is way overkill. They also do their rebar on 24" O.C. so before the pour is done, I will make sure thats at least 12" O.C. instead :wink: Should I push the issue of the 6" thickness? And is the 6" theory more to assist sound isolation,,, or pad stability?? (We dont get earthquakes here etc) Just thought I should ask. :wink: Thanks AJ

My two cents... The walls are going to be heeeeeeeeeeeeavy. But, in reality, 4" vs. 6" may not make a big difference, given the fibermesh and the generous amount of rebar you'll be using. I'm into overkill, so I say, slop 6" of concrete in there. ;-) But I'm aware that concrete is expensive... :roll: ...so, go with whatever Rod and/or Steve say on this one. And don't forget to do deeper haunches where you'll have heavy walls on the inside of the room. --Keith :mrgreen:

Properly done and with heavy enough footers/haunches for your walls, 4" is fine - sound-wise, it won't make any difference because either slab would be dwarfed by the mass of the earth it's sitting on. The point has already been raised about knowing exactly where your walls will go, this is vital. Also, lost track - has it been decided then that your outer walls will be sand-filled block, or what? Steve

sharward wrote:

And don't forget to do deeper haunches where you'll have heavy walls on the inside of the room. --Keith :mrgreen:

Deeper haunches as in footers under where all the interior walls will be (like under the double walls between the tracking room and the control room)? Or does that mean just have a thicker pad in those areas? Sorry, hope it not too stupid of a question, I just dont quite know what "haunchers" exactly means? :oops: Thanks AJ

knightfly wrote:

Also, lost track - has it been decided then that your outer walls will be sand-filled block, or what? Steve

No Steve, I am going with stick build exterior walls (2x6x8) and insulating with non faced insulation between those studs. Then the exterior face will be Stucco. (Going with the room in room design all stick built) Not using any blocks or bricks as originally discussed. Thanks AJ

Yes, footers... Basically, just like you've got going around the perimeter, you'll want to dig some trenches and do the rebar thing inside wherever you'll have internal walls bearing down. I think Rod might have covered this in his book. --Keith :mrgreen:

Stucco is close to gypsum in mass, so you'll want at least an extra layer of 3/4 OSB under your stucco, and hopefully your 2x6 framing will be 24" centers - they perform a bit better than 16" centers for sound control... Steve

knightfly wrote:

framing will be 24" centers - they perform a bit better than 16" centers for sound control... Steve

Trying to extrapolate for my project. If existing walls and ceiling are 16"oc, is there benefit to framing the inner walls 24" oc?

Yup; the "floppier" you can make ANY sound wall without having it fall over (or not meet code) the more energy it dissipates as the sound is travelling through. No case studies I've seen yet, but I'd think this to be even MORE true of a wall using green glue, since the extra "floppiness" would allow the CLD properties of GG to work more... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Stucco is close to gypsum in mass, so you'll want at least an extra layer of 3/4 OSB under your stucco, and hopefully your 2x6 framing will be 24" centers - they perform a bit better than 16" centers for sound control... Steve

I was planning on 2 sheets of OSB under the Stucco, so that should be fine. And WOW on the suggestion of the 24" O.C. instead of 16". I never gave that a thought, but it seems to make sense once explained. I guess my question would be, in the INTERIOR wall, that was going to be built using 2x4x8's. Will 24 O.C. with the 2x4's on 24" centers be enough to hold the 2 layers of 5/8" drywall that will be attached to it???? :? Thanks AJ

I believe that it should.