First, this is my first post in this site. I have been here reading for quite awhile, but I always liked to just read, and search for my answers before posting questions, so that’s what I have been doing.
But now I am about to build a new Studio here at the house and I have to make sure I do this thing right. (All the reading sometimes confused me more because all the different knowledgeable people on here sometimes say different things>?)
So, this new Studio was supposed to be a separate 27X30 building out back of the house, but the local Borough said I will have to jump through hoops to get the 3 variances approved, that I would need to build it, and they doubted that would happen. So,,,instead we all decided that it would be better if I just built the Studio as in addition onto my existing house. It would fit in better to the eye, and easier to construct (I think) but now I have a neighbor only 20 ft away to the one side. ;( That’s where the problem is. ;(
I have read and read and read on here as well as on other sites, and I have read books about recording and studios, and I am waiting on the book I just ordered “ Home Studio - Build It Like The Pros” by Rod Gervais. It’s on the way ;) I can’t wait!! ;)
But my main concern is the neighbors who are only about 20ft on the one side of my house. (Actually their house sits 20 feet away and to the front of the Studio addition. The Studio tracking room will be facing their back yard) Anyway, he is a Doctor and sleeps weird hours. The other 2 sides of the Studio will be all open to over 100+ft each way until you get to a neighbors, and the 4th side butts up against a decent size garage which should help with noise isolation to that side (I hope).
This room will serve 2 purposes. First and foremost to be a Home Recording Studio, and second (for when there is down time from recording) use it for live band practice (only using 4 floor monitors for vocals, none of the large PA cabs in the room and the musicians amps). I play in 2 bands, and so we will be practicing here as well.
You’ll see in the picture I will have a Mackie D8B to use for mixing, and beside it I will use my 24X8 Mackie for band rehearsals. I want to keep the 2 systems totally separate.
Now for the Questions:
1 – As you’ll see on the cheesy diagram I tried to make, the layout shows where the neighbor is located. At first I was going to build the Studio out of Block filled with sand, but now that it’s going to be part of the house, I will be stick building it.
I was going to do the “box in a box” type build, so hopefully the neighbors wont hear us inside the Studio. We typically don’t have a lot of outside noise in this neighborhood, so I just need to worry about what’s coming from the inside out. Is this “Box in a Box” concept going to do the trick??
2 – Would it be as effective if I only did the double wall thing on the wall facing the neighbors and maybe the rear wall (as in the picture) or should/do I need to do it all the way around (and I am including the ceiling as well)? (Man that’s going to get expensive…lol) I understand I am to also keep the inside box completely unattached to the exterior of the building,,,right?
3 – If I make the double walls (“box in a box”), how far apart should they be? How big an air space between them? Does a space of a couple inches wider make a difference (ex: a 4” space as opposed to a 6” space?)
4 - Instead of the Box in a Box concept, can I just use 2X6X8 base plates and top plates, and then stagger 2x4x8’s studs in the wall and fill it then with unfaced insulation. Then double or triple Drywall the inside wall. This obviously would be a much cheaper way to go, but would it work as well? I have tried to read the posted charts on here from other posts, and quite honestly I don’t fully understand it all. ;(
5- I know there is a difference between Sound Absorption and Sound Isolation, but will adding the 703 home made 4x8 ft absorbers (bass traps) around the room and in the corners and ceilings. Is this going to help with my situation once the Studio is built as to noise going to the outside world? (Obviously Bass and Kick drum are all I am worried about)
6- As far as the drum riser, do I even need one??? and if so, I will build it like you guys discussed in the other post about it being isolated from the walls and floor.
7- The double doors, in the double walls between the Tracking room and the Control room, do they have to both be solid core? Can maybe only one be, or don’t either of them have to be since they are both interior?
8- Now here is the kicker. My wife said “you’ll either get tired of the Studio thing, or move to another location in time, so build this thing so it can be converted later into a family game room with windows and doors etc”. I already said no to the skylights idea she had, ;) but can I put windows in this building and still keep the sound in? Some say yes, some say no. Some say yes in the Control room but not the tracking room, others say ok to wherever as long as I use the double window angled theory. Is there a definite answer?? What if I just put windows on the side facing AWAY from the neighbors and left the neighbors side a solid wall?
9- I think I understand the MASS and AIR theory in that you don’t want a bunch of leafs in your wall construction. What I was going to do was: (exterior to interior)
Vinyl Siding (to match house)
4x8x 7/16 OSB shell
2x6x8 base plates
2x6x8 top plates
Staggered 2x4x8 studs
Weave unfaced regular thermal insulation throughout the 2x4x8’s
Leave front open
About a 6” Air Space
(then inside wall) Opened back of 2x4x8 framing and studding (facing the air space)
Insulate between them (unsure with what kind)
Then 2 layers of 5/8” drywall (each layer going the different directions)
Caulk all cracks and corners well and paint.
Would this do the trick or am I way off base??? ;(
I guess I should tell you a little more about this building itself, so it’s easier to answer my questions. It’s going to have a mono poured concrete foundation floor (footers and floor all are one). There will NOT be a separate foundation for the control room (again it’s only a home studio) ;)
It needs to be “stick built” and will be 30ft deep and 24ft wide. It will have a high (almost 2 story) roof and ceiling. (I think the roof is a 9/12 (steep) pitch and the peak is about 2 stories high). The floor will either be carpet, or that fake hardwood floor stuff they sell at Home Depot, or mix of both ;) (which one would you suggest is better)??
I will have several 703 sound absorbers made to be installed around inside both control room and tracking room (corners, ceiling, walls). There will also be a double wall between the tracking room and the control room with the double glass window. (and do they have to be angled when set in place, and how thick should the glass be and can you use plexi-glass?).
Sorry for rambling with the questions, especially being a newbie to posting on here. I post a lot on the home recording site, but find this site to have more “Pro’s” on it (out of my league) so I feel a little intimidated. ;)
Oh yea…since I am new, go ahead and break my balls and get it over with for asking some dumb questions ;) lol Then do me a favor and let me know how I should build this room to best keep the sound in.
Any input to help me would GREATLY be appreciated. I want to start this project ASAP.
(There I finally broke my Cherry with a post, now you probably wont be able to get me to shut up on here…LOL)
Here is my outline of proposed Studio:
Thanks again
Aj
:arrow:
Please Help me - Building My Studio With Noise Isolation! ;)
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 6591.
As usual I have only about 5 minutes before I have to leave; first, welcome to the "posting member" club :wink:
Second, if you can trim the extra white space on the left side of your drawing it will stop causing most of us to have to scroll sideways to read the text -
Third, having more "pro's" here, while seeming more intimidating, will mainly get you less BULL for answers :?
The rest will have to wait but I'll try to catch up ALL the board in the next 2-3 days.
Oh, and please re-read this
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231
I've added a section in red about pix posting, and yours needs to be changed; thanks in advance... Steve
Picture has been cropped. Sorry about that. :shock:
Welcome, Aj!
Nice introductory post. There's a lot of detail there. We'll probably need more (we've never had too much, that's for sure).
I too am short on time, but I'll share what I can with the time I have.
Bummer! :( That would have been your best option. Were the variances related to setback requirements?So, this new Studio was supposed to be a separate 27X30 building out back of the house, but the local Borough said I will have to jump through hoops to get the 3 variances approved, that I would need to build it, and they doubted that would happen.
Excellent. :) You'll really appreciate that book. I think many of the questions you have asked will be answered there, and I'm sure you'll change your approach too. (More on that later.)I have read books about recording and studios, and I am waiting on the book I just ordered “ Home Studio - Build It Like The Pros” by Rod Gervais.
As a former graveyard shift person myself, and as Steve ("Knightfly") is as well part of the time, we can definitely sympathize with Dr. Daysleeper. I recommend you determine the noise ordinances that are in effect in your area. Find out what the law actually says. (Don't depend on someone to summarize it for you -- the the actual language.) You may be surprised to learn that there may be very little difference between daytime and nighttime allowable noise levels. What does often change is the enforcement of the law -- typically 10 PM is the "they get serious" time. Nevertheless, you'll need to aim for compliance 24x7. And you don't want to be "just barely" in compliance either.. . . my main concern is the neighbors who are only about 20ft on the one side of my house. . . he is a Doctor and sleeps weird hours.
I think you need to work on some of the items in your diagram, such as the sofa -- it's way out of scale. The same is true of some of the doors, and I assume that's the case of other items too.You’ll see in the picture I will have a Mackie D8B to use for mixing, and beside it I will use my 24X8 Mackie for band rehearsals.
Not only is the answer "yes," but I can't imagine anything else working for you.Is this “Box in a Box” concept going to do the trick??
You need to do it all the way around. You may be able to get away with less of an air gap in the less critical areas, but you seem to be able to afford a few inches, so therefore, you should.Would it be as effective if I only did the double wall thing on the wall facing the neighbors and maybe the rear wall (as in the picture) or should/do I need to do it all the way around (and I am including the ceiling as well)?
The wider the air gap, the better the isolation. Understand that the measurement is taken from the back surface of the drywall (or whatever)... So, if you're using 2x4 frames, separating the frames 1 inch gives you 8 inches of air gap (3 1/2" stud, plus 1", plus 3 1/2" stud). Increasing the distance between frames to 3" gives you 10". Increasing to 5" gives you 12". In my project it will be about 12" around most of my room. If you can afford more, do it -- you won't be disappointed. Don't underestimate the power of the air gap -- it makes a huge difference.]If I make the double walls (“box in a box”), how far apart should they be? How big an air space between them? Does a space of a couple inches wider make a difference (ex: a 4” space as opposed to a 6” space?)
Forget staggering. While better than nothing and perhaps a good idea for separating, say, a family room from a master bedroom, the noise levels you'll be generating in your space and the level of quietness that will need to be maintained outside are worlds apart. Sorry, there's no shortcut to success here.Instead of the Box in a Box concept, can I just use 2X6X8 base plates and top plates, and then stagger 2x4x8’s studs in the wall . . .
Nope. Well, maybe ever-so-slightly. However, usually that slight benefit translates to it sounding so good inside that you tend to turn things up and/or play louder/harder, thereby negating the positive effect (isolationwise). I think it's fair to assume for the sake of construction planning that nothing you put on the walls after it's built will make the room any quieter to the outside world.I know there is a difference between Sound Absorption and Sound Isolation, but will adding the 703 home made 4x8 ft absorbers (bass traps) around the room and in the corners and ceilings. Is this going to help with my situation once the Studio is built as to noise going to the outside world? (Obviously Bass and Kick drum are all I am worried about)
Probably not. In fact, you could actually make things worse with it.As far as the drum riser, do I even need one???
Yes... If you care about isolation... And it appears you do. Don't assume that compromising on the doors between rooms will only affect the isolation between the rooms. You'd essentially be compromising your walls, and that would have an affect on what leaks through to the outside. Really.The double doors, in the double walls between the Tracking room and the Control room, do they have to both be solid core?
Ideally you would have no exterior-facing windows. Windows between control room and tracking room would be good -- that's a personal decision -- and it can be done effectively. You'll probably have code requirements that call for a certain amount of natural lighting and emergency egress. This is something I ran up against in my project. I was able to get around that by stipulating its use as a soundproof room and told that the certificate of occupancy I get when I'm done will show it cannot be used as a sleeping area. However, your building officials may not be as forgiving. So, you may have to put windows in it, regardless of whether or not you necesarily want them. :roll: In any event, one thing you might consider is framing for windows but not installing them -- this means having the necessary headers in place to make adding them later a lot easier. I think your wife is wise to be thinking ahead, and you should too. But consider the practicals: how long do you plan on staying in your current place? And do you ever think you'll get "tired of the Studio thing," including playing in a band (or two)? I played in a couple of garage bands as a teenager. I'm 37 now, and I realize how much I've been missing. I'm taking it up again. Why? Because whether I'm playing or not, I'm a musician. Are you?Now here is the kicker. My wife said “you’ll either get tired of the Studio thing, or move to another location in time, so build this thing so it can be converted later into a family game room with windows and doors etc”. I already said no to the skylights idea she had, ;) but can I put windows in this building and still keep the sound in? Some say yes, some say no. Some say yes in the Control room but not the tracking room, others say ok to wherever as long as I use the double window angled theory. Is there a definite answer?? What if I just put windows on the side facing AWAY from the neighbors and left the neighbors side a solid wall?
Careful with that. You're adding an extra leaf and you could end up with some nasty resonance -- think about rattles. This is out back, right? Is stucco not an option? :roll:What I was going to do was: (exterior to interior) Vinyl Siding (to match house) . . .
Whoah -- you're talking about staggering studs and double frames. That's totally unnecessary. Staggered studs are a compromise for double frames. Forget staggering altogether.. . . 2x6x8 base plates 2x6x8 top plates Staggered 2x4x8 studs Weave unfaced regular thermal insulation throughout the 2x4x8’s Leave front open About a 6” Air Space (then inside wall) Opened back of 2x4x8 framing and studding (facing the air space) . . .
Don't use permanent carpet -- I'd recommend a non-porous flour, and then if you want a carpet-like covering, use area rugs. They can be rolled up and/or removed to create a more live-like effect. Plus, it's a lot easier to keep clean. I'm going to acid stain my new slab and seal it. It will look like marble. Consider doing that -- it's cheaper than even the cheapest laminate flooring (i.e., the "fake hardwoor floor stuff").The floor will either be carpet, or that fake hardwood floor stuff they sell at Home Depot, or mix of both (which one would you suggest is better)??
OK, I will -- when and if I see a dumb question, which I have yet to see in your post! :) (Of course, the only dumb question is one that isn't asked -- or, depending on our moods, one that was asked a thousand times by others and the asker doesn't bother searching! :lol: But even that doesn't give us an excuse to act badly -- Steve would shoot us on sight if we were ever to flame someone, especially a newcomer. You haven't mentioned budget yet... are you prepared to sell your soul for this? You do know you're talking five figures, right? (But you will be adding square footage to your home, which will increase its value considerably.) Again, welcome. You're doing this right -- you're making your mistakes in your head and on paper. Behold: version 1. You'll start building at about version 12! :lol: (At least, that's what happened with me! ;)) Heh -- short on time? Yeah right -- I just spent an hour typing this! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:. . . go ahead and break my balls and get it over with for asking some dumb questions . . .
Keith,
Thanks so much for the awsome reply. I will put your suggestions and recommendations to use.
The Variances for the Borough were in fact 3.
1 - The setback requirement. (they require 70ft from middle of side street, to build this building it would have been approved for only 48ft)
2 - The building can not exceed 30% of the total land (and this 30% also has to include my house, shed, garage etc). I am fine with that though. With the new building I'll still only be at about 16%
3 - Inpervious coverage can not exceed 50%. I will be ok with that as well (and that 50% includes driveway, pool, hot tub, pond etc) but I would still be ok.
They just seemed like they didnt like the idea of this building and said, in order for them to approve such a building, they need to "see the need for it". (I stated it was going to be a "pool/multipurpose" room, not a Studio because I am sure the red flags would have went up.) They said at this point they didnt see a need for such a building and that if I would just go with the addition, they would approve everything instantly. All I had to do was make sure the setback for the addition was 10ft from the neighbors property line. (I think its like 10ft 1in) lol Believe me I will confirm if before building. ;) It will be the same building line as the existing garage, so I should be fine. But I'll double check beforehand from the deed.
So it looks as though I can build the exterior walls out of 2x4x8's without staggering studs. Thats cool ;) and I think I can get away with Stucco on the exterior instead of siding.
I'll do the box-in-box design all the way around. (I'll remake the sketch) and yes the furniture etc in the picture are absolutely not near scale. I was using some off the internet drawing program and thats the size they paste in at.
I understand framing out for the future (the windows, doors etc), then I guess at "transition time" I would have to either tear out the inner room, OR not make such a huge air space between the walls, and then just make box type windows and let the inner room stay. I guess that would work wouldnt it?
For insulating the Exterior walls, and also the interior 2nd walls, what would you use for insulation? Would just regular unfaced thermal insulation work? I assume it needs to be "unfaced" so there isnt another leaf...right? Also dosent any type insulation added, take away from the air space,,,or no?
Again I wont stagger, but as far as a wall "between a family room and master bedroom"....I could built that wall with only paper. No noise is ever generated there ,,,I have been married 18 years now!! LMAO :lol: I'll check on the noise ordinence, but its the same here as well, as far as 10PM they get strict. And I dont want to "just get by" for the neighbors, we get along and out of sheer respect for them I want it to be as quiet as possible. Drum riser idea is gone, and the solid interior doors I will go with. And I like the acid stain the concrete slab, then sealing it. If it looks like marble when done, that would be pretty awsome. :wink: *** Wife just called and had a question. Since the siding on the exterior (to match the house) may be a bad idea, and I told her possibly Stucco, she asked could we use either Brick up the side (would that make things better or worse) or maybe even that insulbrick type stuff?? Or would those things just be an added leaf? She is bummed because she wanted it to match the house, but if it cant be the same siding, then she would like brick over stucco if possible>? Ok,,now buiding idea (from the exterior to the interior) Stucco (or brick) OSB Sheeting 7/16 2x4x8 studded walls Open faced Insulation >?>? (and what kind woudl be best???) then the interior of those walls left open (exposed) then a 6" air gap then the 2nd set of walls framed for the interior walls 2x4x8's (including the ceiling) Insulate that wall as well>?>? Then 2 layers of sheetrock (hung in opposite directions - 1st layer up and down and the second later hung sideways) caulk and seal all joints and corners w? acoustical caulking Paint interior walls Is this a better design and will it work the best??? Should I add a 3rd layer of sheetrock? Oh yes, I read somewhere on here I believe that there is a new sheetrock out there that is "soundproof" (or very sound deadening)>?>? And that one sheet of this stuff would equal 2 or 3 sheets of regular. Is this true? They also mentioned its cheaper then buying 3 sheets of regular as opposed to their one sheet needed? I havent mentioned budget yet, but I was figuring about 10 grand (dont laugh) for this project. I have priced out about 75% of it so far, and I am at 6000.00. I am selling my boat I keep at Inner Harbor MD, and that is being sold for around 75,000 so money should be there if needed.Forget staggering. While better than nothing and perhaps a good idea for separating, say, a family room from a master bedroom, the noise levels you'll be generating
not my soul.....but I would consider putting the wife and kids up on ebay for sale if need be! ;) NO RESERVE!! (kidding) ;)are you prepared to sell your soul for this?
Comonnnn version 12. I am ready to get started!! :lol: Thanks again for the input and as soon as I get to version 12 and start building, I will post pictures of the progress. Much appreciated :D AjAgain, welcome. You're doing this right -- you're making your mistakes in your head and on paper. Behold: version 1. You'll start building at about version 12
Uh, I think that's B.S. At least, as stated. Perhaps they would need to be convinced it was either necessary or would not detract from the spirit of the regulations in order to grant you variances. Although, perhaps I misunderstood -- maybe you only need a setback variance, since the others were not in conflict...? :? Also, don't lie about the purpose of the room. If the truth raises red flags, let it. Then deal with the flags. I actually think that if you explain its real purpose, you'll get more support, not less. That is, assuming you're not trying to operate it as a business. Hopefully you've seen the "Permits, Codes, Licenses -- and WHY YOU SHOULD CARE!" thread... :roll:They just seemed like they didnt like the idea of this building and said, in order for them to approve such a building, they need to "see the need for it". (I stated it was going to be a "pool/multipurpose" room, not a Studio because I am sure the red flags would have went up.)
Yes, or if it comes time to resell, you could sell it "as it sits" and show that windows can be added with relative ease. That would be my preference, because -- you never know, someone might really like the layout as it is (or will be) at resale time.I understand framing out for the future (the windows, doors etc), then I guess at "transition time" I would have to either tear out the inner room, OR not make such a huge air space between the walls, and then just make box type windows and let the inner room stay. I guess that would work wouldnt it?
I personally like Thermafiber Sound Attenuation Fire Blankets (SAFB) - Nominal Density (2.5 pcf), or an equivalent, Roxul Acoustical Fire Batt (AFB) - ≥2" (2.5 pcf). It's expensive but the fire resistance properties are nothing short of stellar.For insulating the Exterior walls, and also the interior 2nd walls, what would you use for insulation? Would just regular unfaced thermal insulation work? I assume it needs to be "unfaced" so there isnt another leaf...right? Also dosent any type insulation added, take away from the air space,,,or no?
You and I are a lot alike in this regard. :)I'll check on the noise ordinence, but its the same here as well, as far as 10PM they get strict. And I dont want to "just get by" for the neighbors, we get along and out of sheer respect for them I want it to be as quiet as possible.
Yeah, you should see some of the work. It's amazing. Chances are a lot of restaurants you go to already do this.. . . I like the acid stain the concrete slab, then sealing it. If it looks like marble when done, that would be pretty awsome. :wink:
Maybe... But you'd have to be careful not to create an extra leaf in the process. That'll be more money though, I would think... :roll:Wife just called and had a question. Since the siding on the exterior (to match the house) may be a bad idea, and I told her possibly Stucco, she asked could we use either Brick up the side (would that make things better or worse) or maybe even that insulbrick type stuff?? Or would those things just be an added leaf? She is bummed because she wanted it to match the house, but if it cant be the same siding, then she would like brick over stucco if possible?
Prob'ly. :roll:Should I add a 3rd layer of sheetrock?
Do a search on this form for "quietrock" (all one word) and see what the experts here think of it. :lol: Yeah, it's great, if you don't mind paying about twenty TIMES the amount of regular drywall! :shock: Honestly, it's a joke. Not a joke, however, is Green Glue. When weight is an issue, use it. Do searches here to learn about it. I have used some and I'll be using more. Check out my marathon thread.Oh yes, I read somewhere on here I believe that there is a new sheetrock out there that is "soundproof" (or very sound deadening)>?>? And that one sheet of this stuff would equal 2 or 3 sheets of regular. Is this true? They also mentioned its cheaper then buying 3 sheets of regular as opposed to their one sheet needed?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Oh, sorry -- you said not to laugh. ;-) Dude, I've already paid about $2,500 on my concrete work, and I did most of the work myself!I havent mentioned budget yet, but I was figuring about 10 grand (dont laugh) for this project.
Cool! Let's see pictures. I hope they're good looking! :lol: Any warranties? ;-). . .I would consider putting the wife and kids up on ebay for sale if need be! ;) NO RESERVE!! (kidding) ;)
You'll go through versions 2 through 12 right here, so we can guide you all the way to success. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:Comonnnn version 12. I am ready to get started!! :lol: Thanks again for the input and as soon as I get to version 12 and start building, I will post pictures of the progress.Again, welcome. You're doing this right -- you're making your mistakes in your head and on paper. Behold: version 1. You'll start building at about version 12
Updated Spec’s on Studio: (New Diagram Below)
** The double walled construction is now all the way around the interior.
** The double wall however is not doubled at the doorway Corners A D entrance. Will this present a problem and/or totally lose what we gained with the box in box design? And how do I terminate these double walls at the doors at this location, if tying them together (the RED blocks on the picture) will then couple the walls together?? (won’t it)??
** On sides C and D it shows windows and sliding door on the exterior walls. These doors and windows will NOT be installed, but only framed for future use.
** The overall exterior of the building will be 24ft by 30ft deep. I figure the interior to be around 22ft X 28ft (after the box in box construction. That’s leaving a foot on each wall for the 2 walls and air gap of about 4 inches)
** I will use all solid core doors.
** I will use the ROXUL insulation in the walls (Do I insulate BOTH exterior AND interior walls with this stuff?? And do I leave the one side of each wall, the side facing each other, exposed so there are no additional leafs??
** I will probably do 3 layers of sheetrock on the inside walls. (Can I do 2 layers on the side A, C and D sides, then then 3 layers on the side B which is facing the neighbors?
** There will be no openings for anything on side B where the neighbors are, now or in the future.
** There is also a 6ft privacy fence on Side B (neighbors side) which will be located about 5 Ft from exterior wall on that side, and about 15ft from the neighbors house.
** I will have scissor Truss roof on the building to get a high ceiling, but I assume I will need to stick build the interior roof for the Box in Box design? (or should I look into smaller trusses to use there too? (Which seems overkill and expensive)
** The interior floors will be kept cement. I will go with acid staining the floors and sealing them. Question about that, when they pour the floor, does the person doing the floor need to know that they will be used in that fashion (so they are as smooth as possible), then I assume you acid stain them, then the sealant is what makes them real smooth like marble?? Are there any links as to where I can read about this acid stain, and how to use it etc??
** The control room should end up being about 12ft Deep X 23ft wide (close estimate for now) and the Tracking room will be about 15ft deep X 22 ft wide. (man, all these double walls really chew up the space quick ;( lol. Keeping in mind I will also be having a full 5/6 piece band practice here in the tracking room as well from time to time, so I need some room there. The Florida room will be the “go, sit down and chill out” area, which is connected to the Control Room on side D.
** On side A – Do I need to double wall the Side A (Garage) Wall? I thought because corner A B is the corner that faces and is closest to the neighbors,, that I better. Although I don’t expect it to get too loud in the Control Room area. Any thoughts?? (the wall I am talking about is the BLUE arrows pointing to it in the picture)
** The small Green box in the A B Corner is where the neighbors house is at, only its 20ft away with a 6ft wooden privacy fence between us and them (I just wanted to keep the diagram as small as possible)
So how are these for changes so far? Is it getting better?? And what else would you recommend?
I might have to invite you and the family up here when its done, and I’ll treat your family to passes to Hershey Park Amusement Park in Hershey, Pa while we play in the new room. And treat you to whatever cases of whatever beer ya want. lol ;)
Your help is greatly appreciated!!!! ;)
Thanks
Aj
No, it isn't. ;-) Not yet. There's more work to do.The double walled construction is now all the way around the interior.
Yes. It will present a problem. Don't do it. You might be able to get away with making that area a sound lock -- think "third door" that would lead to the control room.The double wall however is not doubled at the doorway Corners A D entrance. Will this present a problem and/or totally lose what we gained with the box in box design?
Simple -- don't tie them together. Study more of the designs that John has done and you'll get the idea.And how do I terminate these double walls at the doors at this location, if tying them together (the RED blocks on the picture) will then couple the walls together?? (won’t it)??
Yeah, that's about right. Figure on losing about a foot all the way around, maybe a tad more. More if you can afford it.he overall exterior of the building will be 24ft by 30ft deep. I figure the interior to be around 22ft X 28ft (after the box in box construction. That’s leaving a foot on each wall for the 2 walls and air gap of about 4 inches)
Write that on the chalkboard 100 times. ;-)I will use all solid core doors.
Correct. Now, some will think using the Roxul (or Thermafiber) 2.5 psf stuff inside the walls to be overkill. I wouldn't argue with them. But I think it's money well spent -- especially if you see the videos of the product in action. (Watch all of them, particularly the "Mineral Wool and Glass Fibre" one.)I will use the ROXUL insulation in the walls (Do I insulate BOTH exterior AND interior walls with this stuff?? And do I leave the one side of each wall, the side facing each other, exposed so there are no additional leafs??
It's generally not wise to "lighten up" on some walls because there is a "weakest link" theory that comes into play.I will probably do 3 layers of sheetrock on the inside walls. (Can I do 2 layers on the side A, C and D sides, then then 3 layers on the side B which is facing the neighbors?
I can't advise you on this I'm afraid... :roll: ...Hopefully you'll consult with an architect for this. Honestly, I think tieing into an exiting structure is actually more challenging because of such things as merging roof lines.I will have scissor Truss roof on the building to get a high ceiling, but I assume I will need to stick build the interior roof for the Box in Box design? (or should I look into smaller trusses to use there too? (Which seems overkill and expensive)
Thats the right idea. That's another reason you want to use good quality concrete, thick (minimum: 6"), with good reinforcements (rebar, not wire, plus fibermesh) so as to mitigate the likelihood and/or severity of surface cracking. Also, consider doing isolated slabs. It would be a shame not to at least seriously consider it.The interior floors will be kept cement. I will go with acid staining the floors and sealing them. Question about that, when they pour the floor, does the person doing the floor need to know that they will be used in that fashion (so they are as smooth as possible), then I assume you acid stain them, then the sealant is what makes them real smooth like marble?? Are there any links as to where I can read about this acid stain, and how to use it etc??
Getting better. But study more of John's designs. You're stuck on 90-degree angles. See some of the magic he has done. Making the dividing wall not on a 90-degree angle will do wonders for your acoustics.So how are these for changes so far? Is it getting better?? And what else would you recommend?
Who, me?! 8) 8) 8) Cool! My family consists of a wife, six cats, three chinchillas, a rabbit, 21 goldfish, and a koi -- along with numerous little frogs at the moment and tadpoles bebopping in the water. Does Hershey Park have a package for that? :lol:I might have to invite you and the family up here when its done, and I’ll treat your family to passes to Hershey Park Amusement Park in Hershey, Pa while we play in the new room. And treat you to whatever cases of whatever beer ya want. lol ;)
Heh -- just wait 'til the real experts start chiming in. Me? I'm an imposter. :roll: :twisted: (There's a reason my title is "mere mortal" -- here's the history on that.) --Keith :mrgreen:Your help is greatly appreciated!!!! ;)
Thats a funny story. I better watch it though with all my questions, I can only imagine the newB nickname I would get. lol :D I also cant wait till the "other real experts chime in" because I am now addicted to learning and doing this project. Its going to be fun! :D Ok,,,here is the latest. I see it getting better and better with all the advice and changes. (I hope) I appreciate it. ;) ;) (its obviously not to scale, I am not that good making these type drawings) (see below) Did I make this "Sound Lock" area correct? I think I understood what you were saying with a sound lock and a 3rd door>?>? I have been looking for the posts on how to tie the 2 "boxes" exterior and interior walls together, so when I walk in I dont see 5" openings on the left and right side of the area. Plus in the doorway areas between the tracking room and the control room. Is there a link to a thread you can send referencing this?? I also made angled corners in the rooms. This should be better then just the normal 90 degree corners...right? HVAC is the next discussion I guess. I was thinking I could maybe just tie into the current system I have at my house (Its a new system) and the main ductwork isnt located too far away in the basement of my house. (actually a crawl space under the Florida Room/Basement area. Also I have a pellett stove in the Florida room the really heats that area up. I am thinking it would heat the Studio as well possibly? (or at least help it along)Heh -- just wait 'til the real experts start chiming in. Me? I'm an imposter. (There's a reason my title is "mere mortal" -- here's the history on that.)
Very cool video. I am a City Firefighter by trade, so I am familiar with the need for fire prevention. But you mentioned that some may think this insulation is overkill? Could you elaborate>? And is there a more affordable way to go, that will give me maybe close to the same isolation results (even though I may lose on the fire retardent end of it)? Keith thanks again fo rthe input,,,, and to the rest, please feel free to jump in. I am really into the information gathering mode right now. Also, I see John himself has designed drawings for studios for people on here in the past. How does that work and how much is that. I need to take a 24 x 30 room and make it work for: Recording Live Band Practices and Isolated as best as possible from the neighbors 20 ft away. I meet those 3 objectives, then life is good! ;) Ok...are we at Version 3 yet?? :lol: :lol: :?: Oh yes..1 more thing,,,,I read about the posting of pictures on here. I hope I am doing it ok. I am putting them in the posts as 'images" linked from being uploaded to my Studio domian name server. Is that the way you want it done? I cant see a way on here to actually upload them directly to your server>?? I just wanna play by the rules! :) Thanks again AjCorrect. Now, some will think using the Roxul (or Thermafiber) 2.5 psf stuff inside the walls to be overkill. I wouldn't argue with them. But I think it's money well spent -- especially if you see the videos of the product in action. (Watch all of them, particularly the "Mineral Wool and Glass Fibre" one.)
Aj, as to pix; just below the section where you type into the white box, there is a section with a "browse" button. Have the pic on your hard drive, cropped and under 150k size, click "browse", then navigate to your pic, select it (double click if on a PC) - then, if you have several pix to post click the "add attachment" button. You can add up to 6 pix per post this way, but they will be in reverse order; so choose the LAST one you want to display FIRST, and work your way backward.
I added some to the "before you post" link about this recently, but may not have been clear enough; if you post to OUTSIDE servers instead of directly here, then a year or three from now when I want to use your thread as an example for some one else, the pix may have been PURGED from the off site and things aren't clear anymore :cry:
This is why I ask now that EVERYONE post their pix/drawings HERE, so the meaning remains clear for later reference.
Check out my post here, on Sat Jul 08, 2006
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6532
for some reasons to plan ahead.
On your selection of outer building materials and insulation, here's the rule; ANY air gap, whether filled with BREATHABLE insulation or just air, will act as an air space; you only want ONE of these, it needs to be WIDE. Adding insulation, unless it has a paper face thats away from one of the masses, or it's closed cell foam, doesn't lessen your effective air gap; it's still considered "air". It will, however, affect things like damping.
Also, you don't want insulation up against masonry in a double framed wall - it needs to have REAL air for moisture control. Find Rod Gervais' name anywhere in a post, click it, then choose "see all posts by" in his profile; he's recently posted comments about this, and he's been doing more of this than ANYONE here for longer than imaginable; if his comments ever differ from mine, believe HIM first...
meantime, gotta get out there and work on my brakes :cry:
There I hope I got the pics edited and uploaded as requested. :wink:
Thanks again
Aj
We see it getting better too. 8)I see it getting better and better with all the advice and changes. (I hope) I appreciate it. ;) ;)
Then get good! ;-) Seriously, you'll get better as you progress to Version 12. ;-)(its obviously not to scale, I am not that good making these type drawings)
Yes, that's the right idea. :)Did I make this "Sound Lock" area correct? I think I understood what you were saying with a sound lock and a 3rd door>?>?
You could attach a fabric to the frames. I think Aaron is doing that on his project right about now if I'm not mistaken. I'll probably do something like that myself. You'll want to do something so that the fibers from the insulation don't migrate into the area between the doors.I have been looking for the posts on how to tie the 2 "boxes" exterior and interior walls together, so when I walk in I dont see 5" openings on the left and right side of the area. Plus in the doorway areas between the tracking room and the control room. Is there a link to a thread you can send referencing this??
Wellllll, not really... :roll: Perhaps I should have made myself clear. What I said is (something to the effect of) you're stuck on 90 degree angles. What I should have said is that you're stuck on parallel walls. Parallel walls are bad for acoustics. See some of John's designs and how he has done some amazing things in rectangular buildings where none of the walls are parallel to each other within a room.I also made angled corners in the rooms. This should be better then just the normal 90 degree corners...right?
You're adding a lot of square footage. I doubt your existing system could or should handle it. I think you're looking at a new system here. Besides, you'll have better isolation to the house if you don't share it. Perhaps you can/should make your sound lock larger so that you don't have to go through the control room to get to the tracking room. If you angle the wall that divides the two rooms (to get rid of the parallel), you won't lose much square footage. I'm sure that's what John would draw up.HVAC is the next discussion I guess. I was thinking I could maybe just tie into the current system I have at my house (Its a new system) and the main ductwork isnt located too far away in the basement of my house. (actually a crawl space under the Florida Room/Basement area. Also I have a pellett stove in the Florida room the really heats that area up. I am thinking it would heat the Studio as well possibly? (or at least help it along)
Some balk at the price. It's not cheap. And when compared to fluffy fiberglass, it doesn't offer much more in terms of isolation. I intend to use it because I'm sold on its fire protection. I hope I can get away with using it as a fire block where my wall gap meets my ceiling gap.. . . some may think this insulation is overkill? Could you elaborate>?
Most of the drawings he does for members of his forum are, I believe, complimentary. However, he does design studios professionally as well, so you may wish to get a quote from him. He also offers consultation by phone for (I think) $135/hour. --Keith :mrgreen:Also, I see John himself has designed drawings for studios for people on here in the past. How does that work and how much is that.
Ok,,,I hope this isnt tooo long winded, but I have collected the advice and suggestions thus far and here is what I came up with. (and I apologize for it being all caps below, I typed it up that way in MS OFFICE WORD when i did it)
I am hoping for more input from some of the others on here who are well-versed in this area (like John and KnightFly and others). :)
So far this whole studio idea has changed from the first drawing, and I am lovin it every time, because it seems to get soo much better. Thanks again for those who have responded. :wink:
Anyway, here is the run down. And please feel free to correct anything that I have listed that needs changed. I am a newB at this all and am learning as we go. There are also questions throughout that I still have. :oops:
Proposed studio – plans, concerns and issues
1- the studio will be designed as a home recording studio that will be built with the possibility of a later conversion into a family/great room area.
(since it’s now attached to the house, and no longer a seperate building)
2- the studio is proposed to be 24ft wide x x30ft deep (possibly 31ft deep) it will be built and viewed as an extension of the garage itself in its framing and location.
3- the studio will be attached as “an addition” onto the house instead of being a separate building. This is due to recommendations from the borough of carlisle and the variances need to do otherwise. The only common wall with the house will be the garage (side a).
4- attention and construction has to be based on the fact that the one neighbors house is only 20ft away from proposed studio site. Isolation must be the primary factor with building. There will be no framings for any doors or windows on that side (side b) of the studio. It will be kept solid.
5- the studio will have a “box in box” type construction (room within a room, totally uncoupled)
6- the studio will be stick built out of 2x4x8 studs. It will be framed straight with all 2x4’s– there will not be staggered studs on a 2x6.
7- the studio will have either scissors type, or barn style type trusses for the roof, this will allow me to have a high peaked roof (interior ceiling) that should be about 1 ½ to 2 stories high at the peak. The current garage roof is 2 stories high with a steep 9/12 pitch.
8- the walls on sides c & d will have framed out places for the later install of a sliding door and windows. These doors and windows will not be installed upon the building of the studio, and that option will be reserved for when/if the building is transformed into family/great room down the road.
9- for mass to help with isolation of sound, the studio will have at least 2 layers of drywall (possible 3) on all the interior walls and ceiling. These layers will be installed in an alternating fashion so the joining seams do not line up (first layer will be up and down, the second will be sideways, and the third will be up and down again etc – or is it better to have them all installed up and down the same, and just staggered when mounting them so no seams line up??)
10- the studio will have a tracking “live” room, also a separate control room, also 1 isolation booth (room), and a small foyer “sound lock” hallway area.
11- the studio will be built on a 6” concrete slab. No floating floors, (but possibly isolated slabs as needed>?>?) This floor will be reinforced using rebar in it, along with fibermesh to reduce the chances of cracking>?>?
12- the interior floor with not be covered with wood or carpet, but instead be acid staind and sealed for a smooth marble looking finish. Floor area rugs will be then used throughout as needed.
13- there will be no drum riser built within the room at this time.
14- the studio will have 32” and/or 36” solid core doors used throughout the entire building. These doorways are to be sealed doorways around the door perimeter and under the doors.
15- there will be a “sound lock” (foyer) area built at the studio enterance. This will prevent any coupling of any interior walls with the exterior walls, to aquire the best isolation possible. There will be a 3rd door in the sound lock area to enter into the control room.
16- a fabric type material will be attached onto the 5” end wall space openings in the sound lock / foyer area (to the right and left of that room) thus not coupling the interior and exterior walls anywhere throughout the structure, and keeping any insulation from entering the area where we work, play, live and breathe.
17- in order to keep the room “transformable” for later use, the interior tracking room wall (side b) will be slightly angled on a center outward peak, so it’s not parallel with the side a,c or d interior tracking walls. Also the side a and c interior walls facing each other, will not be parallel either with the side a enterance and iso booth constructed as shown in the drawing.
18- the sides c & d walls will be the only flat straight surfaced walls. This is also for later ease to convert box areas for the framed windows and doors on those sides. (gotta keep the wife happy)
19- there will be a thick double glass window between the tracking room and the control room. The window pane facing the tracking room will be angled. (or should both be angled)??
The disected wall diagram for this studio’s walls and ceilings will be:
(exterior to interior - and see diagram below):
Stucco on outside face
Osb 7/16 exterior sheeting
2x4x8 stud wall framing
Unfaced insulation between studs
Exterior wall inside face will be left exposed
A 5” air gap all the way around (roof and sides)
2 x 4x8x stud wall framing for interior wall
(possibly more infaced insulation between these studs as well ??)
2 or 3 layers of 5/8 sheetrock
All seams sealed with acoustical caulking
Interior walls then painted
Should i consider using double osb on the outside layer under the stucco, or maybe a later of sheetrock between the osb and the stud framing for more mass on th exterior layer as well>?>?
(also i am still contimplating that if i will do stucco the exterior, then possibly going back to the block exterior filled with sand idea.
I am just afraid that will make for a nightmare later when i, or someone else wants to transform it into a great/family room, cutting in all the doors and windows etc)
(also – just an fyi note: there will be broadband absorption panels (4x8 703 framed panels) throughout the studio and corner bass traps. (understanding this is not for isolation, but absorption purposes, just wanted to note they will be used.)
20- the hvac will be a separate a/c system feeding into the control room (probably piped and vented from the outside, through the garage (side a) wall) and thus not having to breech any part of the (side b) wall (the neighbors side). The unit will sit obviously outside and up along the garage away from the studio building itself. (i am also hoping that unit running may muffle any interiot sound that still comes out>?) I am not sure about the plan for heating yet? I know nothing about hvac or heating systems,,,,yet>?>?
21- still researching a way, or finding a decoupling substance to put between all the walls and the floor itself to help isolate it better. (open for ideas>?>?) Or would acoustical caulking work fine alone??, Or ,,just let the 2 join as they normally would?? Is there a foam or type of tape on th emarket that can be used? Also just use a regular door seal around the doors??
22- green glue>?>? I understand it’s the way to go. I have searched it, and just wondered how you had to apply it? Do you totally have to cover the sheetrock surface, or just put a bead on all over? And how are the characteristics of green glue superior over a regular caulking??
Here are 2 diagrams. One is the location of the studio reference the house and neighbors. And the other one is a close up of the studio layout and design so far.
I am still way open for any and all suggestions, recommendations and changes???
And finally,,,am I at Version 3 Stage yet??? :lol:
Thanks one again for all the input.
In your Word doc -
Select all the caps text -
Format>Change case > Sentence case. :wink: Steve
Man I hope the book I ordered by Rod Gervais gets here soon. I am counting on that to help eliminate some of my more stupider, or common questions the rest of you on here already know the answers to, but I dont. :lol: :oops:
I am chompin at the bit to learn as much as possible and get started!! The wife even said yesterday "so when ya gonna break ground for this project,,,lets get it started?" I answered, I dont know enough about it to break ground yet,,,damn it!! LOL :evil: :lol: :lol:
Anyway,,,thanks Keith and Steve for your input so far. I am pulling from as many resources as I can to get as many answers as I can so I can get this off the ground. (I was never one for patience,,,especially while the wife is supporting the idea...lol) :lol:
I should have started researching this project maybe years ago, so I was better prepared, but instead I took my brothers basement at his new house and he said "You convert it and pay for it, you can use it since I dont use the basement". So this I did, only to find out that now I feel like I am putting him and his family out everytime I bring in people to record etc. Plus the family does NOT stay quiet while trying to record (and their yappie dog too...lol) so obviously it isnt working out. I guess dumb on my part especially after dumping a couple grand into his basement fixing it up. O'well, when I move my stuff out, he is going to have one hell of a nice finished basement. lol :oops: Live and Learn I guess!!
Anyway, Thanks again all. :wink:
Aj
Hey Aj,
I haven't forgotten about you -- you posted a lot of details and I want to give them the valuable attention they deserve, not just a quick skim. :) Unfortunately I've been pretty pressed for time -- and I know Steve has been too.
I can relate to the "chompin' at the bit" enthusiasm. :) Just remember, planning is 90% of any project. "Breaking ground," while an exciting milestone, is actually not the be-all-end-all that many might think.
Let your wife know that the work you are doing right now is very real, and that she is benefitting in a lot of ways by it -- saving money (by not making mistakes that have to be redone), saving time (ditto), and learning how to do it right (so that you're satisfied with the results). You're going to have quite a major construction zone to contend with when you do finally "break ground," so she should enjoy the peace and serenity of the planning phase -- except for the frustrations and growlings she's sure to have to tolerate from you as you venture your way towards version 12! ;-)
--Keith :mrgreen:
Cool man and thanks. I check here a bunch of times a day for any updates. I totally understand the "busy life" thing, that happens. :wink:
I wasnt sure if my post was too "rookie" that it didnt deserve that much attention therefore it was going to filter out into submission. lol :lol: And I'd really like to do this thing right.
Anyway, here is the room I am curently using,,,,,
http://www.recordingstudio911.com/
As stated above, it's my brother basement which was initially converted for a band practice room for my band, then the "recording itch" started. Its VERY amature and obviously not set up and/or constructed right for recording, but again it transitioned from the original band practice room.
Now, I want to build my Studio here at the house and do it right this time. :wink: And I want it designed and built for recording. (But again, I am not a millionaire, so I have to sorta keep a justified budget in mind as well) I dont plan on having any major talent in to record, just area bands and local talent who want to record their material. Its going to be kept fairly low key, and myself and my band will be using it most of the time (which equates to zero income from it) lol. So thats what I am trying to keep in mind while building it (financially). I'll spend $20,000 + or - on the project, but I have to be a realist at the same time and to justify the expenses be able to say when enough is enough?. :shock:
So, thats where I am at, and why I ask so many questions.
Thanks again,
Aj
Quite the contrary. You're obviously very motivated and eager to learn the right ways to do things -- and I can relate to the "multiple times a day checking to see if anything's answered my questions" syndrome! ;-) You're asking all the right questions and -- this is important -- people are learning and will continue to learn from this thread, even long after you're finished with your project... in 2010! :lol: ;-)
Aw, c'mon, lighten up -- I'm just kidding about 2010! 2008, however, is not much of a stretch! :twisted:
Hopefully Steve can pitch in more input when he comes up for air too.
Meanwhile, pull up a chair, take a week off from work, and just skim my 60-page (and growing) monster project thread! ;-)
--Keith :mrgreen:
Aww Man...I was hoping to get this thing up, done and operating by September or October of this year!!!! :lol: :shock: :wink:You're asking all the right questions and -- this is important -- people are learning and will continue to learn from this thread, even long after you're finished with your project... in 2010! :lol: ;-) Aw, c'mon, lighten up -- I'm just kidding about 2010! 2008, however, is not much of a stretch! :twisted: Hopefully Steve can pitch in more input when he comes up for air too.
Given the pace that the rest of us DIY'ers here have been going through, it's hard for me to imagine your meeting that kind of schedule.
Mine's slow because I'm doing all the work myself and I have a day job. I did take one day per week off for a couple of months towards the end of last year, which helped.
Len's been working on his commercial facility for about a year -- mostly by himself, mostly full time too I think.
Stick broke ground in May, but he toiled over plans for a good long time -- about a year or so. He's making great progress, but he's working on almost every day and he has a professional, licensed contractor working with him.
My advice to you is to forget about any possible completion dates until you know exactly what you will be building and how much (if any) that you will be contracting out.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Hey Aj,
OK -- I've finally got a little time to go through your admittedly-long-winded-but-very-articulate-and-very-much-deserving-attention post from Monday. ;-) I'll comment on items that I have something to say -- if I don't say anything it means that I either agree or I don't consider myself in any way qualified to comment. :-)
I am still curious as to why a separate building is totally off the table. You mentioned on Friday that there were 3 variances: setback, 30% building-to-land, and impervious coverage of 50% -- yet you also indicated that you would be incompliance with the last two. :? Anyway, what's the deal with the first one? Are you on a corner lot or something?3- the studio will be attached as “an addition” onto the house instead of being a separate building. This is due to recommendations from the borough of carlisle and the variances need to do otherwise. The only common wall with the house will be the garage (side a).
It would help to see some pictures of the property, the garage, etc.7- the studio will have either scissors type, or barn style type trusses for the roof, this will allow me to have a high peaked roof (interior ceiling) that should be about 1 ½ to 2 stories high at the peak. The current garage roof is 2 stories high with a steep 9/12 pitch.
Before I forget, I had an idea for you -- you could actually put some "fake" windows on sides C and D (but especially C) which would make the building look a little more attractive from the Florida rooom. You could put them right where the real windows would go -- I'm thinking just glass painted black on the inside with wooden frame trim around the edges, etc. It would break up the mononoty of that D wall... :roll: Just a thought that may impress the wife... Or not! Obviously, there are more improtant things to think about right now........ :oops:8- the walls on sides c & d will have framed out places for the later install of a sliding door and windows. These doors and windows will not be installed upon the building of the studio, and that option will be reserved for when/if the building is transformed into family/great room down the road.
Yes, you want to interleave the walls and ceilings for the best shot of maintaining air tightness. It's also arguably more stable that way. There's an illustration of this somewhere on here... :roll:9- for mass to help with isolation of sound, the studio will have at least 2 layers of drywall (possible 3) on all the interior walls and ceiling. These layers will be installed in an alternating fashion so the joining seams do not line up (first layer will be up and down, the second will be sideways, and the third will be up and down again etc – or is it better to have them all installed up and down the same, and just staggered when mounting them so no seams line up??)
I think that's a good plan. (Obviously -- you got that from me! :twisted:) Rod's book will be very helpful to you in this regard. I would have done mine a little differently if he had published his book earlier. Be aware that although the amount of concrete is virtually the same with isolated slabs, it will take longer to accomplish, since there are obviously multiple pours involved. You may also have to deal with higher costs for concrete delivery due to short loads, and if you intend to have a professional doing much/most of the work, these requirements may be a turn-off and it may be tough finding a qualified pro to be willing to do it. In my case it was tough even getting the contractors to return my damned phone calls... :evil: This is not meant as discouragement -- but rather, just a fair warning that you'll need to have a lot of patience. Moving on........11- the studio will be built on a 6” concrete slab. No floating floors, (but possibly isolated slabs as needed>?>?) This floor will be reinforced using rebar in it, along with fibermesh to reduce the chances of cracking>?>?
Again, great idea ;-) -- I think you'll be pleased with that outcome. I saw a photo of a first class professional studio with the same thing and it was beautiful. 8)12- the interior floor with not be covered with wood or carpet, but instead be acid staind and sealed for a smooth marble looking finish. Floor area rugs will be then used throughout as needed.
I would recommend 36" so as to accommodate the movement of gear. "Biffing" the door jambs could wreak havoc on your seals. Words never spoken: "Man, I wish that doorway were just a little bit narrower... :roll:"14- the studio will have 32” and/or 36” solid core doors used throughout the entire building. These doorways are to be sealed doorways around the door perimeter and under the doors.
I'm still not quite sure how transformable the room(s) will be after the fact -- short of literally destroying all of the inner leaf walls and ceiling, I'm just not sure how practical that would be... :roll: ...Anyway, about the layout -- yes, you're making great strides towards greatness with the floorplan. However, I still think John can wave his magic wand and do wonders. I think you should start a new thread in the Design forum (you're in the Construction forum right now), specific to the layout. You'll be amazed. 8)17- in order to keep the room “transformable” for later use, the interior tracking room wall (side b) will be slightly angled on a center outward peak, so it’s not parallel with the side a,c or d interior tracking walls. Also the side a and c interior walls facing each other, will not be parallel either with the side a enterance and iso booth constructed as shown in the drawing.
I don't think it's critical to decide that just yet -- but as a rule, not angling them glass maximizes the amount of air between the leaves, and that is better for isolation. Some say there's less visual reflection if you angle the glass. If you're willing to possibly sacrifice a bit of room-to-room isolation for the sake possibile visual acuity improvement, go for it. There's no real wrong answer here.19- there will be a thick double glass window between the tracking room and the control room. The window pane facing the tracking room will be angled. (or should both be angled)??
Whoah -- you need more mass on the outer leaf. Either go super heavy on the stucco (1" to 1 1/2" maybe? :roll:), or do multiple layers of OSB, or something. I'm not the expert on this, but I do know that as specified, your outer leaf is just as wimpy as every tract home being built today... :shock:The disected wall diagram for this studio’s walls and ceilings will be: (exterior to interior - and see diagram below): Stucco on outside face Osb 7/16 exterior sheeting 2x4x8 stud wall framing
Well, the main thing to remember about kraft paper on insulation as a vapor retarder is that it has to be applied to the correct side -- against the living space wall in cold climiates (north) and against the outside wall in warm climates (south). Nobody here has ever said (or should have ever said) that you should never use kraft paper insulation. However, it has been said (correctly) that you should never use kraft paper insulation with the kraft paper not placed firmly against a leaf. Done incorrectly, you could end up with M-A-m-A-M, with the lower case "m" representing the kraft paper. That effectively divides your "air" into two separate pockets which would be quite detrimental to your isolation goals. All of that basically says, you probably need to have a vapor ratarder -- and it's probably required by code -- so don't skimp on that. Learn more about vapor retarders.Unfaced insulation between studs
Ahhh, there you go. 8)Exterior wall inside face will be left exposed A 5” air gap all the way around (roof and sides) 2 x 4x8x stud wall framing for interior wall (possibly more infaced insulation between these studs as well ??) 2 or 3 layers of 5/8 sheetrock All seams sealed with acoustical caulking Interior walls then painted Should i consider using double osb on the outside layer under the stucco, or maybe a later of sheetrock between the osb and the stud framing for more mass on th exterior layer as well>?>?
Actually, you could probably use concrete blocks with rectangular openings for windows and doors, then fill the openings with more concrete blocks... :roll:(also i am still contimplating that if i will do stucco the exterior, then possibly going back to the block exterior filled with sand idea. I am just afraid that will make for a nightmare later when i, or someone else wants to transform it into a great/family room, cutting in all the doors and windows etc)
John might be of some assistance in providing some suggestions for positioning. If you hire him to fully design your studio, he'll provide detailed specs.(also – just an fyi note: there will be broadband absorption panels (4x8 703 framed panels) throughout the studio and corner bass traps. (understanding this is not for isolation, but absorption purposes, just wanted to note they will be used.)
Definitely study Rod's book on this subject. Fair warning: you'll probably spend as much time thinking about HVAC as you'll spend on layout. Really.20- the hvac will be a separate a/c system feeding into the control room (probably piped and vented from the outside, through the garage (side a) wall) and thus not having to breech any part of the (side b) wall (the neighbors side). The unit will sit obviously outside and up along the garage away from the studio building itself. (i am also hoping that unit running may muffle any interiot sound that still comes out>?) I am not sure about the plan for heating yet? I know nothing about hvac or heating systems,,,,yet>?>?
I posted in the Building Materials forum a few days ago about a new product from Kinetics Noise Control for decoupling wall frames from floors and ceilings. However, honestly, if you do isolated slabs and each room has its own ceiling (although the iso booth can probably share with the live room), then you probably don't have to worry about that.21- still researching a way, or finding a decoupling substance to put between all the walls and the floor itself to help isolate it better. (open for ideas>?>?) Or would acoustical caulking work fine alone??, Or ,,just let the 2 join as they normally would?? Is there a foam or type of tape on th emarket that can be used? Also just use a regular door seal around the doors??
They just did an impressive overhaul of the Green Glue Web site -- go to http://www.GreenGlueCompany.com and learn all about it. Green Glue is not caulking. It is a constrained dampening layer to be sandwiched between two layers of drywall. It is also not actually glue -- don't mistake it as an adhesive -- you still need to use drywall screws -- just as many of them as you would need otherwise. Be aware that Green Glue is expensive. It costs about $15 per tube, not including shipping, sold by the case (12 tubes) and each tube covers a 4' x 4' section of drywall (i.e., two tubes per 4' x 8' sheet). Their marketing materials are credible and their lab tests are legitimate. You will save a lot of time and materials, but you pay for the privilege. That should be enough to get your brain chewing on some things. :) --Keith :mrgreen:22- green glue>?>? I understand it’s the way to go. I have searched it, and just wondered how you had to apply it? Do you totally have to cover the sheetrock surface, or just put a bead on all over? And how are the characteristics of green glue superior over a regular caulking??
Hey Keith,
I was just reading your "marathon post" on your studio. Quite impressive. :wink:
But I came across the picture of you with your Dream Theater shirt on and about your trip to see them in concert. lol My new frontman in my band came from the band FUEL ( he co-wrote their hits Shimmer, and Hemmorage etc) and he said they used to open for Dream Theater before they were headlining. Said they were pretty awsome!! :wink:
Also (on a different note) was some of your time in construction taken up by having to wait on your inspections etc? Because like another member posted on your thread, in PA we dont have all those inspections to deal with (of course here the closest we come to an earthquake is the red neck up the street shooting off his 12 gauge shotgun...lol). My Bro-in-Law and his brothers are all in construction, and they said they could have this thing "up and under roof" within a couple weeks>? Only inspection I need is Plumbing and Electrical after its installed. And I think thats it>?>? (I am still in the procress of gathering all the info to be sure).
Anyway,,, you have great taste in bands with Dream Theater, and I just wanted to share that with ya..
Thanks
Aj
Yes..I am on a corner lot, which means I have "2 front yards" according to the zoning board. And they (the codes manager) said she doubted the zoning board would approve such a variance. Plus to be honest, the building would look out of place there anyway, and would look and fit in much better as an addition instead. :?I am still curious as to why a separate building is totally off the table. You mentioned on Friday that there were 3 variances: setback, 30% building-to-land, and impervious coverage of 50% -- yet you also indicated that you would be incompliance with the last two. Anyway, what's the deal with the first one? Are you on a corner lot or something?
See Below....It would help to see some pictures of the property, the garage, etc
Not to her there isnt...LOL :lol: ...Cool idea :D When i tell her you guys mention recommendations that will keep her happy, she wants to see the posts and then she is more supportive of the project. Works out great!! LOL :lol:Just a thought that may impress the wife... Or not! Obviously, there are more improtant things to think about right now........
Why yes I did get it from you (among other ideas) ...and I thank you for them ;) ;) lolI think that's a good plan. (Obviously -- you got that from me! )
Ok,,are we more in the ballpark with 2 layers of exterior OSB?? If so thats what I will do. Thanks once again for the advice, and it gives me more things to look into and research. I am real curious about the Green Glue concept. I am wondering if a layer of that would substutute for one of the layers of sheetrock in isolation? I'll check it out. Also, I will start a post in the Design forum as well. These guys on here are probably wishing I never signed up on here. LOL :lol: :lol: Anyway,,,here are some pics of my back yard where the "proposed" building was to be,,,and now where the addition is to be. In the pic showing the rear of the garage, that will extend out yowards you about 30ft, It will go past where the gazebo and hot tub currently are. The Florida room is behind that tree. :? (Lotsa landscaping changes,,,but the wife LOVES to do that) lol ;) The other two pics show where the building WAS originally to be located. There is a fence on two sides of that proposed site, and behind the fence (about 75 yards) on the one side is a neighbor, and behind the fence on the other side about 16ft back is the side street. Thanks again AjWhoah -- you need more mass on the outer leaf. Either go super heavy on the stucco (1" to 1 1/2" maybe? ), or do multiple layers of OSB, or something
My Bro-in-Law and his brothers are all in construction, and they said they could have this thing "up and under roof" within a couple weeks>?
I don't know your inlaws at all, and I am NOT putting anyone down here; but just let me say, WATCH OUT !! Unless your guys have actually done SUCCESSFUL sound proofing type construction before, I can almost guarantee they will screw it up UNLESS you have them join here, read through most of the REFERENCE section, and post a PLAN with DETAILS of how things will be built.
Again, this isn't a put-down; I've talked to literally hundreds of construction pro's, people who've been doing this for decades, and NOT ONE had a clue about the correct way to use Resilient Channel, or what kind of wall has more isolation (it's ANYTHING but intuitive) - had some Croatian carpenters drive NAILS through the pads that were SUPPOSED to be floating their floor frame; Even after reading here for months, a lot of people still think the "air gap" between walls is the distance from one frame to the other one.
My point is, speed is NOT your friend here. Neither is "experience", if it causes things to be built in the "standard" way instead of the "acoustic" way. You have relatively close neighbors and a serious need for isolation; this means you MUST pay attention to EACH AND EVERY detail in your construction, or you will NOT like the results.
That said, is it your plan to "extend" the gable roof toward/past the gazebo, or am I cross-eyed here? I'm thinking about inner ceilings and the various options vs. acoustics, so it's NOT too soon to think about this.
Soon as you can, we need some sort of sketch of your outer envelope including an elevation and roof plan - and your Bro-in-law needs to come here and ask his own questions after reading a LOT, if he's willing to get that deep. If he's not willing to learn new things, you might be better off doing it ALONE, for the reasons I stated above.
I probably didn't win any friends with this post, but I don't care; I'm here to help people get the space they can actually USE without wasting any more $$$ than necessary, and anyone who thinks they can build a studio without the specific knowledge we share here is either already doing it, or too arrogant to be a good choice. Better to find this out EARLY IMO... Steve
Great stuff, Aj. And now I totally understand the variance issue. What I think had me confused was that I didn't know there was an "original location" and a "new location." Makes sense now.
I'm glad Steve posted what he did -- I would have posted something similar about being extremely careful about "experienced" builders. He said it better than I would have though.
Gotta' run right now. More later.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Aj, Be carefull here - where you live they opted into the state code - which means a local building official (although they might share him with another town) and according to the State Code they have agreed to provide inspections as required by (now) the 2003 IBC (They are required to autoimatically update to the latest code revision per § 7210.304. Revised or successor codes. (BOCA became IBC) This agreement went into effect in 2004 - 07/01/2004 to be exact - you can see it for yourself here: http://www.dli.state.pa.us/landi/lib/la ... uccmun.htm The CODE establishes minimum standards for inspections which include - (i) Foundation inspection. (ii) Plumbing, mechanical and electrical inspection. (iii) Frame and masonry inspection. (iv) Wallboard inspection. (v) Final inspection. It's always possible that your local official is picking up a paycheck and not playing by the rules - but just be careful that you don't work yourself into a corner you don't want to be in. It's the foundation inspection I would be concerned with - items 2 and 3 can be performed at the same time - and 4 can be performed at the final inspection. Sincerely, RodAlso (on a different note) was some of your time in construction taken up by having to wait on your inspections etc? Because like another member posted on your thread, in PA we dont have all those inspections to deal with............. Only inspection I need is Plumbing and Electrical after its installed. And I think thats it>?>? (I am still in the procress of gathering all the info to be sure).