Mystery Machine studios - 3-Room basement studio project

Hi all- I've been reading this forum for over a year now and sifting through the threads and getting ideas of what to do in my new home's basement. Here's my original thread I started in July 05 - Studio design post John provided me with a great start and gave me a lot to think about re: how to conceive of the space. There's some pics here of the design ideas we went through and several links to pics of my bare basement space. Since this time I've hooked up with a local designer and architect team who had been helping an acquaintance of mine design his studio. They have also been working in conjunction with a local acoustics firm called "Altermat" who contracts to do the sorts of things that people get help with in the forum, so they've been schooled in many of the basic concepts of studio design and some of the structural concerns to look out for. While I may use Altermat for some help at some point, they're really expensive and I'd rather use the money for making my basement a great space. Important notes about my skill level in the ways of construction/electricity/plumbing and the like... - It doesn't really exist:) - I feel like I get things conceptually more often than not, but I'm not the person who will ultimately be applying them. - I have no background in construction of any kind, so I'm working hard to educate myself. - I've ordered Rod's book and it should arrive shortly. I'm trying to read and keep up with some threads and I'm using the search function as well. Here's some basic info about my project: Budget: - $30,000 for fixing any water/leak concerns, framing, walls, flooring, ceiling, HVAC upgrade, plumbing upgrades (50%), electrical upgrades (new panel and seperate circuit for basement/studio), finishing and acoustic paneling. - The "there's really no more money" budget is a grand total of $50k ($30k + another $20k), which I expect to perhaps need for extras or complications that come up as I go along. From reading through all of the threads, they're going to... Existing structure: - My home was built in 1926. - The basement is a sort-of-finished half basement, the other half being a crawlspace @ approx. chest height with dirt covered by plastic. Poured 6" concrete walls and a concrete foundation. - Approx. 5 feet of the foundation walls are below ground around the entirity of the basement. - No studs or framing up at all - just bare wall and cement floor. - Ceiling height is 7'0"+/- at differing areas of the space. - Dimensions of the space are 24' 11.5" by 22' 11.25". - There's a maze of pipes, ducting and electrical stuffs in the ceiling, several large appliances (Water heater/Gas furnace/washer dryer, basin) and one rather immovable pipe that runs floor to ceiling that's sort of in the way, but will ultimately have to be worked around. - Currently my home only has heat (a new Gas furnace - "Rheem Classic 90"). The home was completely reconditioned by a local "flipping" company before I got it, so all ducting throughout the house has been overhauled and cleaned up. I'll need to add the AC component and new ducting for the basement space. I'm hoping that the crawlspace in the basement can be used for the long runs of ducting that are needed to kill noise and that the AC unit itself can be housed outside on the side of the house. - Stairs descending to the basement lack enough height to meet code, so as part of this project we'll also be creating a new rear entrance to the house that will allow for a small mud room and a much more comfortable entrance into the house from the back. The steps will also be less steep after the changes are made. Use for space: - Primary use will be tracking me, my band and my friends and band practice. - I'm not planning on making this a for-hire facility, but occasional commercial work seems like it could happen at some point down the line. - Type of music is indie rock/folk/acoustic, etc. - I'm planning on tracking drums sometimes, moderately loud amps (loudest would be my 50 watt JCM800 but not turned all of the way up at all), bass sometimes mic'd/sometimes direct and vocals. - I don't intend to track full bands that often, if ever. Maybe a couple of instruments at once, but my space is moderately sized... - The live room is on the East side of the house, so it's facing the yard and street, i.e.: it's quite far away from the closest neighbor. - Mix-wise, I monitor very moderately and rarely get that loud. - Having said that, it's completely possible I might track guitar in the control room just for the heck of it. I'd certainly like to feel like that's acceptable. Isolation requirements: - This is not a pro facility and my main goal is to use for my friends and myself. As noted above, drums may be tracked every once in a while downstairs and I'll likely still have band-practice downstairs in the live room. -Tracking-wise, I'd like to be able to have the drums in the LR and be able to monitor in the CR clearly enough to knock out levels/mic positioning and actually get what I'm hearing. I've worked in headphones next to the instruments I've been recording for years, so anything's an improvement. - I don't expect complete isolation or being able to play @ ear-bleeding levels @ 2am. My goal is more along the lines of keep noise out during the day and allow me to work at night at moderate volumes, but be confident that I'm not disturbing anyone or violating any of Portland's noise codes. - Isolating from the upstairs area is not the most critical aspect of the project, but I'd like to obtain the best isolation possible with the size joists I have and the low-ceilings. It's not my biggest concern though. - Another big goal is keep the sound of the mechanical devices in the basement isolated so that I could track acoustic guitar with the AC running, which may be a best-case scenario. Existing STC levels in the space/outside space: Updated - 4.14.06 - I just bought a Radio Shack tester and will list everything as C-weighted as I think was recommended here. I just looped a guitar part going though a 4x10 cab as loud as I could expect to be tracking (not comfortable levels to be near for me). - Gas heater in Basement alone (measured 3 feet away) - 74db - Looped guitar part inside basement (heater off) - 113db - Looped guitar Upstairs through floor - 90db - Looped guitar at fence bordering West side neighbor's home - 83db - Looped guitar on North Patio/backyard - 85db - Looped guitar in North driveway - 78db --->Note - the North neighbor's home is another 15 feet from the edge of my driveway. - Looped guitar on East sidewalk - 80db - Looped guitar on East neighbor's sidewalk - 69db ---> Note - this is a sound level going through my yard, fence, sidewalk on my side of the street, a busy 2 lane street and then their sidewalk. - Looped guitar from South side/front of house - 63db - Drums downstairs with meter next to the drums - 100db. -------------------- STC levels indoors/outdoors with no sound emission from house/basement (note - all measurements are c-weighted) - Inside basement with the heater off - Less than 50db - Upstairs with no traffic passing - Less than 50db - Inside house @ rear (north) door with traffic passing - 52db - Traffic on East street standing @ East foundation wall - 72db - West side of house - Birds/ambient noise - 53-55db - West side of house - Traffic from East street - 72db - Sidewalk directly in front of east street with passing traffic - 75db - Sidewalk directly in front of east street with recycling truck at far corner - 80db Rooms to build into the space: - The current design of the space creates 1) a control room (188 Sq. ft.), 2) a live room (120 Sq. Ft.), 3) a booth space/bathroom (53 Sq. Ft.) and 4) a utility space to house the Water heater/Gas furnace/washer dryer, basin, etc. - There will also be 1 small closet space, a "hall" which will act as the entry point for all 3 studio rooms and a smaller machine room space under the stairs for my computer and drives. Materials/finishing: - I'd like some sort of wood laminate for the floors, perhaps using DriCore as a sub-floor, but this is still in the very early stages of planning and researching. - The low-ceilings will prevent any sort of "proper" floating floor. Solid core doors. - There will be windows going from CR to LR and LR to booth. - I've been planning on using "Real Traps" for sound absorption/traps, etc... Neighbors: - I'm a corner lot. - 1 neighbor on the West side of my home next to what will be the control room. They're approx. 20 feet away from a poured concrete wall. My old neighbors never complained and these folks don't seem to want to acknowledge I exist, so no problems yet. - On the East side of the house I've got 10 ft of yard, a fence, 10 feet of sidewalk and grass strip, 20 feet of road and then more sidewalk and strip and then my across the street neighbors. She's been known to be picky about noise in the wee hours of the night with my former neighbors, but has been cool with me so far. - To the North of me there's my backyard (10 + feet), 10 foot driveway and then another 20-30 ft. until my other neighbor's house. - Thus far everyone's been good about the noise, but I read the suggestion to build for the worst case scenario and I agree... Places I'm willing/need to compromise: One of my goals in all of this is to strike a balance between upgrading my basement space/expanding the square footage of my home and also creating a functional space for me to record and mix in. The compromise here is that it seems hard to create acoustically ideal rooms that don't eat up square footage and also make awkward long-term use of the space. - Accordingly, at the suggestion of a friend and also Nathan of "Real Traps," I've kind of changed up the suggestions made by John and created rooms that save as much square footage as possible and also incorporate offset angles, no parallel walls, etc. - I'm also planning on stubbing out the bathroom/booth area but not installing any fixtures. - Ultimately, I guess I'm trying to create a great space for me to record and mix, but also remaining aware that I might not be in this house in 6 years time and that I'd like to recoup my investment if possible by creating useful spaces that translate into normal living spaces to some degree. Where I'm at in the process: - My designers and I have gotten to the point of schematic drawings and are finalizing details of the various spaces. - My designers are trying to get the drawings completed so we can move on to getting permits. - I'm currently speaking to a couple of contractors I feel comfortable with and I'm starting to think more about details and also wanting to make sure that the plans we're finalizing can work here. - I'm concerned about getting the basement leak situation looked at while it's still wet in Portland. To this end I've asked a few friends who are contractors to refer me to some foundation folks who might be able to review the problem and begin some sort of solution now. - I'd guess I'm 2 months away from breaking ground in the basement. Current concerns and questions about the space: a) My first and foremost concern at the moment is the fact that every so often I get a little water into the basement. - It's very erratic and when it happens, it's not massive leakage (probably less than a pint total), but still enough for me to be concerned about throwing up walls and trapping it. - Leakage has happened probably around 10 times total in the year I've lived here and is somewhat erratic. - Last month it rained and rained and rained, but there was zero leakage. I'm uncertain if there was and the gas furnace being on all of the time downstairs kept it dried up? - When the dehumidifier is running the musty smell in the room subsides. When the dehumidifier fills up, the musty smell comes back. I can tell the second I step into the space if the dehumidifier's filled up or not. - This winter, while the Gas furnace ran very often, the dehumidifier didn't fill up that often. In the spring/summer of last year, it filled up at least every other day. - Without the heater or the dehumidifier running the space tends to stay around 50-60 percent humidity. I keep a barometer downstairs to keep track of it. - With the dehumidifier or heater running, I can easily keep the space @ around 40-45 percent humidity. I feel like this is my biggest initial priority here. To this end I've spent the day trying to read up on the various water documents/comments here and I'm also trying to narrow down the scope of what exactly is happening. I duct taped up some plastic to the wall and the floor where it tends to leak and hosed down that corner of the house outside several times today to try and induce a leak of some sort and localize it, but that didn't work...no water came in. At the end of the day, I'm ready to do whatever it takes to get this licked...french drain, sump pump, whatever. It just seems like it's not optional. Edited on 4/13/06 - I just got off the phone with a friend who's a contractor in Portland and we talked about my space a little. I mentioned the leakage concerns and he mentioned that in these older houses in Portland that likely don't have a footer, when the ground gets mega-saturated, water can get pushed under the foundation wall and come up between the foundation and the pad. This kind of manifestation would perfectly match the kind of leakage I get in that it's always at the very bottom of the walls and tight in the corners. He also mentioned a potential concern he's seen when digging french drains in Portland; a few friends of his have dug out their outside walls only to have them crumble because of a sandy concrete mix. He thinks my house may be new enough that this isn't an issue, but he urged checking the concrete mix before doing anything like excavation. I did look this over and also spoke to another contractor who will perhaps be making a bid of the project and he said he didn't notice that when he walked through and it's usually very obvious. Edited 4.14.06 - I wanted to add that after doing some reading of articles about typical issues with wetness in basements, I've made some poor decisions re: landscaping and grade that have likely helped this problem continue. I let a landscaper talk me into planting some shrubs along the east side of the house that borders the foundation and accordingly, there was a fair amount of compost added while this work was being done. It appears this is bad in that the compost retains moisture. Also, no work was done to create a barrier below the beds to slough off water away from the foundation. The grade was also not well attended to, so it's inconsistant and doesn't do much to get water away from the foundation. Also, the landscaper also convinced me, despite me voicing concerns, that putting a 7-8 ft tree on the NE corner of the house about 1.5 feet from the foundation was also ok to do. The tree's only been there 4-5 months, so I don't think root damage would have occured at all... This area also has compost and also poor grading as well which isn't pushing water away from the foundation. I think once some corrections are made here, the inconsistent problems will likely disappear. Thoughts? Edited 4/15/06 - Just got my copy of "Build like a Pro - Remodelling a Basement" and there's a very interesting suggestion and distinction that I'd not made re: my water issue. I'm not sure if it's a ground water issue or a grade/poor run off issue. If it's the latter, he makes a suggestion for a much less expensive fix: "Dig a trench alongside the foundation 1 ft. deep and 2 ft. wide. The bottom of the trench should be level or sloping away from the house, not toward it. (to make cleanup easier, lay 4-mil plastic on the grass where you throw the dirt.) Over the bottom of the trench, carefully sift a 1/2- to 1in. layer of finely powdered bentonite, which has the consistancy of talcum powder. Then carefully shovel in about 4 in. of pulverized nonpercolating clay soil and tamp it down with your feet... Repeat the process-layers of fine bentonite and soil-until you're near the top of the trench. Then fill in with topsoil and sod, making sure you slope the surface away from the house by at least an inch for every foot. Surface water will penetrate into the topsoil and is absorbed by the bentonite and clay, which will swell and seal the ground around the foundation" b) My next primary concern is to get some confirmation that the direction that my designers and I have headed in design-wise is going to work out ok for my purposes. I know I'm not going to get the best isolation known to mankind, but I'd like to get it as good as it can get. c) As a result of the desire to create "finished" spaces, this will create the need for 2 egress windows for fire safety reasons. This creates some painfully obvious concerns sound leakage-wise. My initial thoughts if to create some kind of "plug" or object that can be used to seal the windows while tracking. Possible solutions for the egress windows: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=egress http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight= http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=239 d) Potential sound leakage from any venting necessary to create a bathroom space for future use. I don't need to use it as a bathroom now, but my goal is put everything in place for future potential usage with as little leakage as possible, if that is indeed possible. e) The immovable sewage stack that's on the west wall of my control room. It juts out of the wall and we're currently planning on building around it since I've been told thus far it's not movable. It messes with the clean symetry of the room, but I'm hoping it's something that can be compensated for with absorption or something... There's not a lot I can do about it without loosing a lot of square footage. I'm also investigating the possibility of removing the upper portion of the steel stack and rerouting towards the wall so that the wall would only jut out towards the base of the wall where reflections would matter less. This would let me not mess with the bottom of the stack which is in the slab and would be a big hastle to mess with... f) Isolating the noise from the utility room housing the gas furnace, water heater and also isolating noise from the HVAC system g) Permit considerations for potential buisness usage... - I'm reviewing Sharward's thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=egress at the moment and trying to see where I fit into this. - My architect and designer are doing all of the proper permitting for the plans and I plan to do all of the work on the up and up, but I'm unsure of how to broach the "this is a small buisness" aspect of this. - There's a basic fear that if that subject is broached it'll be bad news in some way shape, form or fashion. - I'm not planning on this being a "for profit" kind of thing at the moment, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that it could happen now and again. h) All the other stuff that's going to come up as we move forward with this process... Goals for using this website: I'm not handy enough to do all of the building/planning involved with this project, but I'm concerned that we get it right the first time and I don't feel like letting someone else make all of the decisions is the best way for that to happen. I feel like you guys are probably the most qualified group on the planet to help guide me in this complex process, so I'd like to use this site as a resource to a) review/modify my initial concepts and b) help me make informed decisions as I move along through the process. I really like the idea of a few opinions about things and I feel very confident in the base of knowledge I see here in thread after thread. ---------------------------- Below are the detailed drawings of my basement and the proposed design. Higher-res copies can be found at the link directly below. To see these images very large, click below the pic on the text "Origional." http://www.pbase.com/infiniteposse/studio_design

Below are some pictures of the basement.

More pics...

I met with my architect and designer today and we touched on a number of subjects. Waterproofing the basement: My designer and architect compiled a list of potential local contacts for help with the waterproofing. The various groups services range from sump pump/interior drain systems install to exterior excavation/sealing, etc... This group, http://www.johnswaterproofing.com/ , seems to be into the sump pump/interior drain systems and will do a free estimate, so I'll get them to come out and check out my situation. It seems like a combination of this kind of an interior system, some corrections to grade and drainage and getting the beds changed out for the powdered bentonite/pulverized nonpercolating clay soil combo (described above) to seal up the permiter of the house might do the trick. Any thoughts on this approach would be greatly appreciated. STC level goals and Construction Methodology: I've spent a fair amount of time pouring over Rod's book and it's done a great job helping me to grasp some ideas that have been slightly elusive. Acordingly some things have crystalized and some questions have come up: - I now "mostly get" M-A-M construction as it pertains to wall and also the sealing/increased mass of the ceiling joist spaces. - I feel like I need to develop some "goal" of exterior STC and then design accoordingly so that we know what the build specs should be, per wall. Question-wise, I'm unsure how to determine: 1) How many layers of sheetrock would be needed in the exterior wall leaves of the rooms? Would all walls require the same amount of sheets? 2) How much space should be left between the 6-inch poured concrete walls and the studs to achieve the set STC goals? 3) Where would a vapor barrier come into play with my wall assemblies or would one at all? - I think this has the answer a few replies down: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... &start=120 4) How many sheets of sheetrock should be used to sheild the upstairs from noise? (Note - my designers are going to contact a structural engineer about the load that my 2x8 joists can handle - so that may dictate how this one turns out or if we need to use Green Glue or something with less weight, but higher cost). 5) To avoid flanking, do all wall studs need to be decoupled from the floor or ceiling or just specific ones? 6) Should I plan on all walls using RC's to mount to the studs? Is this something that most inspectors are OK with structurally? 7) Should studs be right on the floor or some on some kind of rubber plates that decouples them from the floor? How to get an accurate bid from a builder? All of these questions lead up to my concerns re: getting an accurate bid from contractors for this work. I think it's really clicked with me how much more detailed and tedious this work is going to be compared to a normal basement refinish and I'm just looking for some way to quantify/define what they should expect, labor-wise, to accurately bid on this project. I'm not really sure if my budget is underkill or overkill or just right. It was sort of a shot in the dark and about what I thought made sense to put into the space. HVAC/Ducting thoughts and concerns: My reading on the forum and in Rod's book has led to me understand that duct-wise, bigger is better in terms of reducing noise. This is a little scary though since I've got minimal headroom to work with and want to preserve as much of it as possible. My origional hope was that we could get volume by using some sort of wide pancaked rectangular ducts as opposed to large circular ones, but I'm not sure that'll work... I guess I'm concerned ducts are going to eat up all my ceiling space. Any thoughts? I'm also just concerned about making sure all of the ducting is decoupled from the space so it doesn't rattle like a baby toy when I play my amps. Right now it's painfully annoying as the entire ducting structure downstairs rings along as I play guitar. Door Question: Rod's book made me think that his "superdoor," a solidcore door with sheet lead and 3/4" plywood on it's inner face, might be the way to go. The doorjam assembly depicted (p.94) looks highly complex though and my designer was thinking that the degree of complexity of the drawing/design of the door assembly might make it more expensive than a pre-assembled purpose-built door/assembly. I've got to think this wouldn't be the case. Thoughts? Am I missing anything else I should be reading up on at this stage to prepare myself to talk to builders and get bids? ? Thanks guys! Lee

What a beautiful first post! This is way it's SUPPOSED to be done! There was one item that I didn't see mentioned though: is there anyone else in the house that we need to worry about bothering? Also, your noise measurements seemed quite high outside the house. Did you by any chance make the same measurements WITHOUT the guitar loop? I.e., just background noise? Note that the RS meter won't go below 50 dB. len

Hi Len- Thanks for the feedback and questions! I worked really hard to make that first post as complete as possible... I think I may have won a prize for the "most revisions to a first post":) Re: others in the house, there's just my girlfriend on occasion at the moment, but I'm trying to build with the future in mind, so I'll be doing some degree of isolation to the basement ceiling which will really be dictated by structural limits of the joists and budget. All bedrooms are also on the 2nd story of the house, so that's some nice distance between the studio and sleeping folks if needed. Good call on the outdoor testing - I really didn't do any readings out there sans loud amp. The East and NE readings would be getting a lot of the major 2-way street that's there. The readings from my neighbor's sidewalk actually found that the traffic was worse than the amp drone actually in terms of actual db's. On a morning like this with light traffic it's just birds tweeting and an occasional Garbage truck, but at 5pm it can get hectic. I'll take some more readings outdoors later today and post my findings. Thanks again for the positive feedback. I needed that;) ------------ Edit STC levels indoors/outdoors with no sound emission from house/basement (note - all measurements are c-weighted) - Inside basement with the heater off - Less than 50db - Upstairs with no traffic passing - Less than 50db - Inside house @ rear (north) door with traffic passing - 52db - Traffic on East street standing @ East foundation wall - 72db - West side of house - Birds/ambient noise - 53-55db - West side of house - Traffic from East street - 72db - Sidewalk directly in front of east street with passing traffic - 75db - Sidewalk directly in front of east street with recycling truck at far corner - 80db Note - I also added these to my intial post so that comparisons could be more easily made...

what a beautiful house, hard to believe it's 1926 vintage, looks like a reproduction. nice restoration job!

Thanks Dan! I fell in love with it the second I saw it. I'd looked at a ton of other houses and this one had the best light, floorplan, renovation and basement space of them all. It's got good mojo and good bones. It was actually renovated by a local flipping company that does good work, Phoenix Realty. Evidently it was a fugly house before they got their hands on it and it was really trashy, right down to junked out engine blocks laying around the backyard! This neighborhood's come up a lot though, so it's a safe and pleasant place now. The basement is the final frontier of renovation and then it's just time to live in the darn thing and leave it alone for a while...except that storage shed I want at the end of the driveway':lol:'

I've got a waterproofing company coming by this Saturday to evaluate the basement situation. This company offers the internal trenching by the foundation wall and the sump pump, so I'll see what their estimate is and then report back. Also, re: this post in and of itself, if there's critical info missing or something that needs to be added in order for anyone to offer feedback, just let me know and I'll work on laying it out pronto. I am very new to all of these concepts, so I'm often needing to read things several times to have them click conceptually. Thanks

Sat. 4.28.06 - Update Waterproofing Contractor visit The waterproofing folks, John's Waterproofing, dropped by today and did a walkthrough and estimate for my basement space. Their suggestion was the "Waterguard" treatment which is the wall trench which will actually be able to connect with my interior floor drains as opposed to needing a sump pump. Evidently my floor drains are low enough. $3840 The gentleman also recommended a vapor barrier for the wall that they install and then use Volcom caulking to seal to the wall and below the joists. $200 He also said that 2 "Waterguard Ports" would be necessary. These would allow access through the base of the walls in 2 spaces to the drains to check for clogging and the like. Without them, they say their warrantee doesn't hold. These could be installed in the bathroom/booth space and in the utility room. $40 He also tried to sell me on their dehumidifier which is a big 'un which he said could dehumidify my entire home, but only if I leave all of my doors in the basement open so this thing can pull air through the house. This sounded suspect to me personally, especially for the low, low price of... $1700. Lastly, he recommended a "flood ring" around my water heater which will tap into the drain system. Not a bad idea or investment. $200 ------------------------------------------ Trying to think ahead and learn from Andy's waterproofing experience This kind of approach reminds me of Andy's thread where he had the same kind of system installed. My specific concern with this would be to do what Andy was told he could have done while the cement was being installed, specifically "setting J bolts in the concrete" so that the bottom plates can be anchored to the concrete. I mentioned, in an admittedly unlearned way, the idea of pre-installed some bolts to the waterproofing guy and he seemed confused. He said that simply gluing the plate to the flooring would be sufficient. I tend to doubt this and it seemed far from his area of expertise. I don't really know how J-bolts work, though. - Do you drill the base plates and then mount them on top of the bolts that have set into the concrete? - I take it they can be set fairly shallowly? ------------------------------------------------- Designer/architect updates My designer and architect have worked up specific drawings for my various walls, doorways, ceiling assembly and various windows. They sent me over PDF's, so I've asked that they make some conversions into JPEG's and Word files so I can post their suggestions and get some feedback. Once I get the drawings up, I'd really, really, really appreciate some feedback on them. Thanks.

infiniteposse wrote:

I don't really know how J-bolts work, though. - Do you drill the base plates and then mount them on top of the bolts that have set into the concrete? - I take it they can be set fairly shallowly?

Fortunately I have some recent experience with this. J-bolts are available at Home Depot and come in various lengths, including bolts and washers -- the washers are 2" square and are very thick. Such are required by the more strict California building codes. I would imagine the same would apply up there in Oregon. In my case, building code calls for them being submerged 7". To be on the safe side (and to pass inspections easily) I had them submerged about 9" and the J-bolts are 12" long, so that leaves 3" above the surface of the slab -- more than enough to pop through a 1 1/2" soleplate. Bottom line: You're not just removing some perimeter concrete and replacing it with a little drainage and cement -- you need to excavate a little foundation for the J-bolts to go into... :roll: I'm not sure if your waterproofing company can or should handle this. I'm not sure if having a footing like this would impede the drainage... :roll: Here's the point in my threaed where you will see the rebar work, including setting of the J-bolts. The J-bolts are positioned prior to the pour with horizontal sicks of wood (my concrete guy used short stakes for this) with a 3/4" hole for the bolt to fit through. The sticks hold the J-bolts in position prior to the pour and during the pour. As the concrete starts to set up and the surface is smoothed with a trowel, the nuts are unscrewed, the sticks are removed, and the area previously covered by the sticks are also smoothed over with a trowel. The slide show of the concrete pour shows this if you watch carefully. 8) Note that you might have to have the J-bolt settings inspected prior to the pour so that you won't have any trouble passing your framing inspection later. Consult your local building department on this. --Keith :mrgreen:

J-Bolt's thoughts Thanks for the feedback Keith. Yeah, I'm not sure if this is over their heads or if it would screw up their system or not. I'm thinking the whole point of their system is to be flush with the foundation wall, so at best this would mean that the J-Bolts would have to be at the interior of the drain area excavation, about 4-6 inches into the space, at which point we'd be right back next to the slab where we could drop proper bolts through the plate again, yes? Mind you, this isn't anything I've ever even seen done, I'm just talking out loud here - to myself:) From the pic above it seems like there's some spare space to the interior of the installed device where something like that could be placed. The pic doesn't make that trench look very deep though... ------------- Designer and architect proposed designs for various walls, doorways, ceiling assembly and windows As mentioned before, I'm going to throw up some proposed drawings for all of the various wall, door and window assemblies that my folks have come up with, as well as their explanatory letter they sent me as well as a pic of a document they titled "Acoustic Notes" about various aspects of construction to note. Note that the different walls being described are for the various spaces in my basement - bordering the 6 inch foundation walls, interior walls between the CR/LR and interior walls that surround the stairs area. Windows and doorways are also for different doors and spaces. Also note that I have immediate concerns about no extra layers of gypsum beef up on any walls or ceiling in these depictions. I guess I'm more concerned about basic principles they're outlining and if they're solid. I've been reading up on this stuff constantly, but I'm in a period of info overload and I can't really think too straight. I'm saturated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are the design notes that they sent on: The details and specifications indicate recommended wall assemblies, window assemblies and door types. WALL ASSEMBLIES/ TYPES The basic concept is to create an acoustical separation between the “recording suite” (the three recording rooms) and the rest of the house and neighbors. The drawings show the following typical wall assemblies: Type I (STC 48-52): 2x4 studs, 16” o.c., 5/8” Type X gypsum board each side, resilient channels 24” o.c. with 3” thick sound attenuation blanket (Compare to same wall assembly without resilient channels for STC 36). Type 2 (STC 57): 2x4 double row of 2x4 studs, 16” o.c., 5/8” Type X gypsum board each side, 3” sound attenuation blanket. The double stud wall system provides roughly the same sound transmission loss characteristics as the multi-layered single wall system. The double stud wall does have the added advantage of reducing noise from wall impacts, such as doors closing. Type 3: existing 6” thick concrete basement wall (STC 55) + 2x4 studs, 16” o.c. with 5/8” Type X gypsum board, one side (approx. STC 34). SITE-BUILT INTERIOR WINDOWS Type W6 and W7 are shown as site-built windows. Using one pane of 1/4” thick laminated glass and one pane of 5/16” thick glass, each mounted in neoprene U-channel separated by a minimum of 4”, a window assembly of STC 48 can be realized. Use differing thicknesses is important. The thicker glass is better for reducing lower frequency transmission. Laminated glass is better for reducing higher frequency transmission. INTERIOR DOORS @ BASEMENT Interior doors are shown as 1 3/4” thick solidcore wood veneer doors with perimeter seals, automatic door bottom and a threshold. Approx. a STC 28-32 rating per seal mfg. testing. Another option is the use of two communicating doors (back-to-back doors in one opening). Doors should have a minimum weight of 5 lbs/sq. ft. (solid wood) and be 1-3/4” thick. If there is a 2-1/2” minimum airspace between the doors that is filled with absorption, an STC-44 can be realized. The absorption between the door is typically a fabric wrapped panel (2” thick) that is applied to the surface of one of the doors. Each door would have neoprene seals at the head and jambs and an automatic drop bottom seal that could be surface mounted or mortised into the door. The second door could be added at a later time (if required) if door openings are detailed to allow for this. Another option is to order exterior grade obscure glazed door for these interior installations, as these doors come with perimeter seals and are available with thick/thin glass insulated panels (and some have tested STC ratings). CEILING ASSEMBLY As the partition walls are not supporting the ceiling structure, the layers of gypsum at both sides of the wall studs would butt into the gypsum at the bottom of the ceiling structure. The typical ceiling assembly shown: For STC 48: (e) 2x8 joists (16” o.c.), with subfloor above, resilient channel 24” o.c., 5/8” gypsum board, 3” sound attenuation blanket in cavity. Previously we had discussed adding approx. 2 layers of 5/8” gypsum board with screws to the underside of the subfloor, in addition to the assembly described above. This approach would likely be costly for the installation even if one works around the existing bracing and ductwork rather than removing and reinstalling. This could increase the overall rating of the floor assembly to approximately STC 54-56. BASEMENT FLOORS Previously we had discussed the use of a wood “floating” floor assembly to separate the finish floor from the existing floor and reduce flanking transmission through the existing construction. To meet doorway clearance requirements, this total assembly can’t add more than 1” to the overall height or the underside of the existing beam could be planed to reduce material (after engineering reviews). LIGHTING -Electronic ballasts are recommended for any low voltage lighting, preferably remote. -Do not use dimmers in room. -Do not use fluorescent fixtures (ballast noise). HVAC -The use of flexible duct should be avoided, as sound will “break out” of flexible duct. -Use low air velocities and larger ducts, if possible. -Line all ductwork with sound absorbing duct liner (approx. 1” thick), if possible. -Use low turbulence supply and return openings. Many standard grilles are noisy. -Appliances: turned off during recording or acoustically isolate by mounting on springs or a rubber pad to help reduce transfer of vibrations to the immediate structure. ALTERNATES - to reduce costs 1. No finish floor. Use existing concrete slab as finish floor. 2. Leave plumbing stack as is, in existing location. 3. Ceiling construction Leave existing braces in place, add resilient channels and drywall at ceiling only. 4. Delete interior window #5 @ kitchen/ stair. 5. Site-built windows vs. manufactured 6. Site-built interior doors with site sealing vs. manufactured exterior door assemblies 7. Do not install future plumbing stub outs and locations. 8. Do not built addition and re-built stairs. Enlarge existing opening for door and sidelight, minimize porch roof. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Also, higher-res versions of all attached pics are available here. My apologies for the long pics - I just didn't want to loose text resolution. I'm happy to resize if it's a total pain to deal with... Any Feedback greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Remaining pics...

Wow, very cool stuff! 8) At first blush I'm thinking you'll need mulitple layers of drywall on each face, not just the one that your architect drew up. (Nice drawings!) Are you and your architect aware that STC ratings are meaningless in studio construction? They may be great for designing office buildings, hotels, and multi-family construction (condos, apartments), but when it comes to isolating live musical instruments, STC is woefully inadequate... :roll: That said, my room will have at least STC 70 when I'm done with it, probably closer to 75 or maybe even pushing 80. What's most critical is low end transmission loss (a.k.a. "low end T.L."). I agree with you that the J-bolts could/should be set a few inches in front of the drain pipe... But if you're only building non-load-bearing partition walls (i.e., not supporting a ceiling on them), then you may not need J-bolts. Again, consult with your local building department on this. Also, consider an acid stain with a matte finish/sealant on your concrete floor. That's what I'm planning to do. 8) Sorry I don't have time to review the documentation and drawings more thoroughly than that right now. --Keith :mrgreen:

a quick look at the pix : pay attention to the window setup, looks like the 2 are not isolated from each other (both resting on the same joist)

Good catch Ro. It looks like they used the approach of a "simple double-glazed window assembly" (p.86 in Rod's book for those of you reading at home) despite having framed out a full double wall, which I would imagine defeats the whole purpose of the doublewall... The proper way to do it would seem to be on p.88, the "Isolated frame double-glazed window" assembly where everything's truely seperated. I'm going to try and bear down today and read through my printout of the FAQ on wall construction and see if everything in the drawings seems Kosher there. The door assemblies my designers have laid out also worry me. The one in Rod's book (p.94) looks far more complex and when I showed my guys his illustration, they thought it was overkill. Granted, none of the rooms will have doors directly entering one another; there's a central space/landing between all 3 of the rooms, so that might be a tremendous help in terms of M-A-M - the doors and then the huge 4-5 foot gap between the rooms. I'm not sure this means 3 simple solid-core doors that are sealed up well and the space between the rooms will suffice... My other concern is the feasability of beef-up in my celing joists. It's a rats nest of plumbling, electrical, ducting and occassional cross-bridging. I'll attach some pics to show what I mean. - Does it make sense to do partial beef-up or is it all or nothing? Andy's thread touches on this to some degree, I'm just stalled at the moment and get back into it... Thanks for taking the time to reply Ro.

infiniteposse wrote:

My other concern is the feasability of beef-up in my celing joists. It's a rats nest of plumbling, electrical, ducting and occassional cross-bridging. I'll attach some pics to show what I mean. - Does it make sense to do partial beef-up or is it all or nothing?

Partial beef-ups are worthless beef-ups. If you have mass on 95% of your ceiling, then you are drastically short-changing your isolation.

Hey Lee Let me first say you've got one of the most impressive posts I've seen. The layout is GREAT and I can see you're a detailed person. I'll be taking notes from ya' whenever I get my "official" build post started. I know this may be jumping the gun for you, but I was just wondering if you came to any conclusion on your floor. In this post... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4845 you were looking at the dricore product and I wondered if you were still considering it. I'm looking forward to your progress...keep the detailed stuff up! Thanx!

sharward Thanks for the feedback re: the beef-up. I guess since a partial beef-up is all that's vaguely conceivable in my space it's off the table. Accordingly, my plan will be to insulate the spaces as well as possible and use 2 layers of gypsum on RC's hanging from the ceiling. Sound good? Any other alternatives I should be thinking of here or just move on? Stan I'm not sure about the flooring that'll end up in my space yet. I've yet to hear from the voices on high that DriCore is a suitable product, but I'm sure by the time I get to that something will become more obvious. I'm a long way off though, so we shall see... Thanks so much for the positive feedback though. ---------------------------------------------- Updates Drainage system and foundation concerns My designer and architect contacted the structural engineer who's been looking at the project and also the company who offers the perimeter drain system re: concerns about the drain system concrete being able to handle the load of the new walls on the 2" or so of concrete that'll be standing on them in places. HOWEVER --> The structural engineer evidently said he didn't feel comfortable saying whether or not cutting out slab around the entire perimeter would or would not undermine the actual structural integrity of the entire foundation. I told my architect/designer that this wasn't particularly helpful info without some sort of plan to move forward and evaluate this concern, so their going to ask him whether or not there's some way to determine how exactly my foundation was poured and footed and how much it depends on the slab to support it. Does anyone have any advice on how to go about evaluating this concern about the slab potentially supporting the foundation walls? --------------------------------------------- Trying to find a General Contractor and getting bids on the project I'm currently going to get some plans out to a few contractors that I know and get some bids submitted for the proposed work. I'm sure there will be some more changes here and there in the plans, but they're close enough for pretty accurate bid I think. One of the two builders on my short list isn't available until early Sept., but there's still a ways to go in terms of drainage concerns and permits, so that wouldn't be the end of the world? ------------------------- Knightfly I haven't been around in a while, but if you're back in action post-PC pestilance, I'd love to hear any thoughts you may have about my project thus far. I origionally posted right when both your computers bit the dust, so I've not had a chance to partake of your wisdom. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. ------------------------- Thanks for all the help guys!

infiniteposse wrote:

Does anyone have any advice on how to go about evaluating this concern about the slab potentially supporting the foundation walls?

Gosh... That's a great question. I sure don't have any info on that. You might ask the structural engineer to describe the worst case scenarios to you. Perhaps there could be an effect of the slab stabilizing the foundation and keeping it from caving inward...? :roll:

Thanks for all the help guys!

You're quite welcome. This is an education for all of us! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Update for 7/5/06 Bidding Well, the process continues. I've got plans out to a few contractors for bids and one has come back thus far. His bid is based upon all of his subs having come through the space with him for a couple of hours and is around roughly $93k for everything I'm looking for, which includes the creation of a mud room at the rear of the house, very nice finishing and all of the odds and ends for the studio. He thinks he could dumb down some material choices and knock off about 15%, but he's going to have to look at some more things. One of the most expensive components to get priced out was actually the HVAC upgrade, which came in at around $10k. He was suprised by this himself. My current gas heater is a newer model, so this doesn't seem to require any work really, so we'll perhaps have to review things more closely to see where some cost cutting can take place. Revision of basic design idea - single large room as opposed to double room After having a small coronary as a result of this bid, I did some thinking and realized this space will never be a perfect recording studio space (low-ceilings - small room sizes) and if I really want to nail down drums it'll happen upstairs or elsewhere. Also, I tend to feel more at ease and comfy in more open spaces as opposed to tighter spaces and I've always worked in single room configurations in the past and seem to work well in them. Accordingly, I've gone back to a nagging feeling I've been having which was telling me a double room (CR and LR) in this space wasn't the best choice. Accordingly, I've created a simplified design that's basically the same as the origional design, minus the wall and window separating the 2 rooms. This will hopefully save me some money by loosing the double wall, the glass and a door. However, if I go this way I'd also like to move the 6x6 in the middle of the passage-way and add another to allow for proper support of the structure. This may negate any savings I'd get... We shall see. Pic below. Any feedback on these ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Specific breakdowns from the bid I've received: The breadown for the mechanical is as follows: A.C. unit (American Standard Allegiance 13) installed = $ 3,300.00 Divide system into 2 zones w/ Honeywell zone system andHoneywell vision pro programmable thermostats = $ 2500.00 Re-work existing ducts and add new ( including bath exhaust) = $ 4,700 Note - I went with a split system since it won't always make sense to be cooling my upstairs, which lacks AC at the moment, while also cooling my downstairs, which will need more constant AC usage to regulate moisture and temp. The breakdown for the electric is as follows: wiring smk dets, lights and star ground system for receptacles = $ 5190.00 allowance for can lights = $ 1,000.00 allowance for wiring a.c. unit = $ 300.00 service upgrade to 200A 40 circuit panel w/ new 200A meter base, service mast, conductors, 2 ground rods = $ 1,600.00 The door and window schedule (not including site built windows) using marvin windows = ~$ 6,500.00 ------------------------------------------------------------- If anyone has any thoughts on these numbers I'd love to hear them. I've also asked the contractor to bring along the calculations the HVAC sub would have made to determine the needs of the space. Any feedback greatly appreciated! Lee

Lee, Since you're starting from scratch, you ever thought about a dehumidifier system to go along with your HVAC? Also, (Forgive me if you mentioned it...I haven't had a chance to read your whole thread) Did you set up a system for fresh air to come into your rooms?

8.17.06 Update Long time, no typing. A lot's happened since I last wrote and I thought I'd chuck up the details and see if anyone has any ideas or thoughts to offer. Stan My apologies for the late reply. To the best of my knowledge, the HVAC system will, by design, take care of both fresh air and also de-humidification. I've emailed my contractor to double-check this though... Permits All drawings are approved and permits are paid for. At this point there's just the various inspections of the work as it proceeds. Bid finalizing and proposed timeline My contractor and I are in the process of finishing up details of design and materials so I can get a final bid to sign off on. The tentative start date for everything is set for the first week of Sept. '06, so we'll see how we do. HVAC design/layout/materials We've been working on refining the design of the HVAC and also talking a lot about materials. Since I have low ceilings that will be made lower with 2 sheets of sheetrock, we're trying to determine the best way to run ducting to: 1) maximize headroom in the space in light of ducting and soffiting demands 2) Eliminate the potential for rattling of ducting from low-end 3) do our best to reduce sound transfer to the upstairs of the house Attached is a new drawing with a detailed layout of the proposed ducting. It may be one rev. behind as of today, but it does a pretty accurate job of demonstrating what we're talking about. Materials-wise we've decided, with the help of Altermatt - my local acoustics consultants, to use flexible ducting as opposed to a metal ducting. The hope would be that this would eliminate the rattling when sound transfer occurs with low-end. There may also be some use of site-built ducting as well. The majority of the ducting is going to be channeled through one area now with a minimum headroom of 6'2. This low a headroom isn't ideal, but it's acceptable for a concentrated area. We've also decided to look into moving the furnace into the crawl-space. This will evidently allow for easier running of the ducting and will also get the furnace farther back into the space where it will hopefully make less noise. The weak link of the ducting situation is that since we've got so little headspace to spare, there can't be very extreme soffiting to isolate the sound from the room from going into the ducting and getting channelled into the rest of the house. We've got 2 layers of ceiling, some fiberglass in the bays and as discussed earlier in the thread, zero beef-up on the underside of the upstairs flooring. The leak into the upstairs was never my #1 concern though, so it seems like this is all part of the compromise of things. Question - Based on the attached drawing, is the duct/send/return placement sensible? There aren't a lot of options left, so I'm hoping so... Possible floor excavation for added ceiling height We've discussed revisiting the feasibility of a floor excavation and re-pour of the slab to gain several inches of headspace. My contractor is looking into rough numbers now and is also trying figure our the savings in relation to the excavation that we'd be doing anyway for the drainage system we're planning to have installed as well as several excavations for the various plumbing needs downstairs. The hope is that while we're not going to be breaking even, we may save enough on the lack of excavation needed on the drainage system (the company only installs/configs when it's time for us to re-pour the slab) and lack of plumbing excavations to make it sensible. We also need to look into the actual depth of my foundation walls and footing. This is an old house, 1926, so there may not be a lot to work with, further negating the usefulness/practicality of a full excavation. Flooring materials On a more fun note, we went and looked at flooring materials and I've decided that I really like a laminate bamboo product called Teragren. It's really well put together for a laminate, very durable and very attractive. I also like the environmental aspects of bamboo as it's very renewable. That's about it for now... This whole process has been so overwhelming I kind of just want it all to start. I've worked to hard to just blow it on the details though, so any thoughts are always appreciated!

Can't tell from the dwg which runs are to your basement studio, or (for that matter) where the studio will be in the basement - can you label a few more things so it's clear? Also, beware of using flex duct; it's really easy to kink which will put a restriction in the line, speeding up air flow at that point and making more noise. Rod's our HVAC (and other) expert here, and he much prefers using JM Superduct (cut and form sheets of rigid fiberglass insulation with liner) for ducting. In any case, you want separate runs from the air handler to and from your space with at least two 90 degree bends per run. You also want at least half again the nominal duct diameter as would normally be used - air noise due to moving air is roughly proportional to the 4th or 5th POWER of the VELOCITY, so a larger duct makes for a LOT quieter air. HTH... Steve