Mystery Machine studios - 3-Room basement studio project

Hi Steve- Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it. I'll attach another copy of the basement studio layout as it currently stands. The studio consists of a single room now (the two sides of which are labelled "living space" in the attached drawing) and also a bathroom space that's stubbed out for plumbing, but no fixtures installed. The NW "living space" is going to be the control room and the SE "living space" is going to be the live room. They were formerly two separate rooms, but since I will often be recording myself, I decided to create a single space instead. In addition to the CR/LR and bathroom space there's also a utility closet on the SW end of the space. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ducting layout clarification Re: the ducting layout, here's all of the info that my designer sent on about this drawing and the other 2 drawings she sent at the same time which I'll attach as well: HVAC DUCT layout Also attached are diagrammatic sketches, showing my understanding of our discussion yesterday regarding relocating the duct runs. SK-1: RCP SK-2: Section A, proposed soffit shown in RED. SK-3: Section B @ stair hall and between bedrooms, proposed soffit shown in RED. The sketches show the following: -Gray illustrates SA duct runs -Brown illustrates RA duct runs -Blue shows show areas to be soffited- 6'4" at stair hall and 6'4" for a portion of the smaller space/ bedroom. Please review- as it might be necessary to lower the ceiling to 6'-0" at the existing 10" duct in the smaller bedroom. -SA for basement area is not yet shown- please indicate your recommendations for these grilles and duct run. - The red "Up" in the drawing SK1 denotes feeds to existant registers upstairs that still need to be fed by the system. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Concerns you noted above I've forwarded your concerns re: flex-ducting to my contractor and disigner. I know we'd planned to use some degree of a "JM Superduct" product to build out some custom ducting, but I'm not sure how much of it was supposed to be flex-duct and how much was supposed to be site built. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Challenges with the space and best compromises Being that I've got a relatively low ceiling downstairs, we're working hard to get these ducts as far away from headspace as possible while also making them as quiet as possible. I speak to these concerns at great length in my last few posts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Update on floor excavation My contractor has spoken to the gentleman who'd be doing the excavation and it seems that it would be fairly reasonable in light of the $ savings from not having the plumbing folks and the drainage folks having to do any excavation at all. Accordingly, early this week my contractor will be digging in 4 areas of the space to see how deep my footing and foundation go. Worst-case is that there'll be very little depth, if any, beneath where the slab ends. Hopefully we'll be able to gain several inches though. We shall see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks again for checking in Steve. There's exhaustive detail about my project throughout this thread and I did do my best to create a thorough intro as well. Having said that, if there's any other specific questions I can answer or look into, please let me know! Thanks very much.

Cleaned up drawing of the space My designers created a cleaned up drawing for me so you guys can see things a little more clearly. Everything has measurements now as well, which is helpful. I'll copy and paste my description of the space from above: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The studio consists of a single room now (the two sides of which are labelled "living space" in the attached drawing) and also a bathroom space that's stubbed out for plumbing, but no fixtures installed. The NW "living space" is going to be the control room and the SE "living space" is going to be the live room. They were formerly two separate rooms, but since I will often be recording myself, I decided to create a single space instead. In addition to the CR/LR and bathroom space there's also a utility closet on the SW end of the space. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve If you have any time to review and comment on my project thus far I'd be very grateful. I'm about to start things up and if there's any glaring issues I'd love to get a better understanding of them now. Thanks very much!

i'm curious how you're going to handle the cross-bridging situation. i'll be looking to start a project in the next year or two and have the same thing going on there. not sure if i should take it all out, beef up, and re-install or just stuff it with as much insulation as possible.

Hi Josh- Per Sharward's comments above, it seems as though a beef-up that's not 100% is one not worth doing. Seeing as there's a huge amount of labor involved in getting sheetrock into all of the bays and I'd not actually be able to get it into several of the bays because of the rats nest of wires and ducts, the plan at this point is to forgo beef-up and simply use insulation packed into the bays and a double-layer of sheet-rock on RC clips. My space seems to be a big collection of neccessary compromises and since isolation from upstairs isn't my #1 concern, I felt it was acceptible. It may be less so with someone else's project though... I hope this helps and good luck with your project!

I have often wondered whether or not mass loaded vinyl would be appropriate in cases like this. It's a ripoff when conventional mass (i.e., multiple layers of drywall) is doable... But in cases where it's not -- since it's floppy, would the third leaf effect be that bad? No answers here, just questions... --Keith :mrgreen:

Sharward: Bring on the questions and the answers and random theories. Tuesday 8/29/06 - Excavation starts to inspect foundation/footing depth Jackhammers should be ringing in the next couple of hours as we begin to dig down in 4 spots to see how deep this goes. Pray for 24 inches:) Nightfly and Ron If you're around and have some time, I'd love some thoughts on my post. Thanks!

Looks fantastic, Lee! Great running into you and "The Ms." the other day.

9.22.06 update Project starts So we got the ball rolling and holes have been dug this week for the window wells and the area where the rear of the house will be bumped out slightly to create a less steep entrance to the basement and also a mudroom space. We've also opened up the rear wall of the house so that my contractor can see how things are working structurally. Lathe and plaster is some nasty stuff on the way out. It goes everywhere. This morning a structural engineer will be over to determine the final size of the footings in the basement and some other crucial details. The slab will be taken up next week. Some remaining questions 1) I spoke to my contractor about the "fresh air" question - ie: will my HVAC system provide for it. It seems that without adding an extra intake space from the outside, the system is designed to recycle air. We can add a vent to get fresh air in, but it adds the added task to the system of heating cool air from outside in the winter and cooling hot air in the summer. It also seems that it would add yet another escape route for sound to travel down and out through. Yes? Is this a no brainer? Any wisdom here? ---- I've got some other HVAC questions, but I need to get better info together so I can articulate them well and not waste anyone's time. Thanks all.

infiniteposse wrote:

I spoke to my contractor about the "fresh air" question - ie: will my HVAC system provide for it. It seems that without adding an extra intake space from the outside, the system is designed to recycle air. We can add a vent to get fresh air in, but it adds the added task to the system of heating cool air from outside in the winter and cooling hot air in the summer. It also seems that it would add yet another escape route for sound to travel down and out through. Yes? Is this a no brainer? Any wisdom here?

Consider a heat recovery ventilator (HRV). That's what I'm planning to use, and there is at least one success story with it here. --Keith :mrgreen:

Hi... I might be a little late on seeing this, but I'm wondering how you have decided to approach the drainage issues? Have you decided to definitely go with the interior perimeter drain system (the quasi- 'french' drain)? Have you never even considered an exterior drain tile system? I've been looking into these sorts of things myself now for a few months, and at present it seems as though the exterior system is superior... But, the question of whether the intervention is warranted is unanswered. In your case, if you are cutting the whole slab out to make it deeper, you might wanna look into a 'true' interior perimeter drain tile, placed just inside the footing, rather than the 'channel' stuff... The lower you can get the piping, the lower you can keep the water away from the slab (plus avoid any mold and humidity problems inside the basement, from water in the channel -- remember, the channel is open to the air of the basement, no? With the drain tile at the level of inside the footing, there is no opening in the basement (except for clean-out sweep 'T's', and of course the sump pit)). I know one pitch of the channel is that it can't clog, but, if you have several sweep 'T's' in line with drain tile pipes, there would be plenty of access for roto-routing, if ever needed in the future. Have you ever got any prices on how this compares to the channel method? By the way, I'm also dealing with a fairly low ceiling height; the finished height will be like 7'1" in the studio room(s), and a bit higher in the rest of the basement... IF you could dig down and gain, say, another foot in height, it might be more worth it -- but for just 3 or 4 inches, I'm not so sure. What do you think, and what have you decided or considered? Plus, your new slab would be deeper into the water table range. Lol, what about raising the house instead of digging deeper; I don't know much about this, but IF you did raise the house, you'd be more free to add a greater amount of ceiling height, no (I mean, once the framing is off the foundation, going up higher would be less restrictive than having to dig down deeper)? What's involved in THAT procedure, anyone know? (Anyone else here getting like me: sorta 'finding' out that much of construction is 'flawed' technology, at least compared to some other fields?) Keep us posted with the latest decisions and progress, thanx, K

9/27/06 Update Quite a bit has happened since the last post and I've also got some pics together of the first bit of hole digging and demo, cause who doesn't like pictures? Structural engineer visit My structural engineer did a walk-through to get a good look at the place and also to come up with some numbers for the size of 3 new footings. He also examined the ideas for the repour of a new 3 inch slab and also the interior perimeter drain system. His recommendations were as follows: 1) He felt the drain system had the potential to undermine the structural integrity of the foundation walls since the slab is part of what supports them. 2) One of our (contractor, architect/designers, me) goals was to gain a little headroom with the slab pour, but the earlier discovery that the foundation walls went down just barely below the current slab weren't encouraging. As a posible solution we proposed a ledge at the edge of the slab that would rise above the foundation wall by a few inches and be about 6 inches wide. The ledge would then descend (right angle) into the middle of the room giving us more headroom in the actual space. The walls will rest on the ledge and this will also allow for a sizable air gap between the 2 leafs. The engineer signed off on this and we've gained 1 inch through this process. Not a lot I know, but it's something. (pic below that explains what I'm describing here.) Note - Regarding the expense of a repour for so little gain - Having now seen what's between my home standing and falling, a very small slab supporting my foundation, I feel ok about spending some extra money and getting it built like a rock. The house was also built as a single level home with an attic which was then "finished" last year, so there's extra weight at work that the foundation was never meant to see. 3) He felt the slab should be 4 inches deep, not 3 inches as origionally discussed, and should have rebar throughout and also tying it into the foundation walls. Drainage As a result of this change in slab pour and drainage systems, we're looking at a few ways of dealing with drainage concerns now. 1) There will be a vapour barrier underneath the new pour slab and also a layer of sand underneath as well, which should help keep out moisture from below. 2) We're looking at various tile and pipe options for below the slab ledge/foundation wall area which could work to direct water to a drain area. This is still a little up in the air. HVAC I did some more digging re: HVAC stuff since it's the one place I feel like I understand the least and it has the most potential to make my place both sonicly and physically uncomfy. 2 Stage Variable Speed air handler unit My contractor had mentioned this me as an option several times but the words kept slipping away into the chaos of my overstuffed brain. I finally wrote it down yesterday and found a few threads on the subject that led me to believe that this is the way to go if at all possible. I'd rather not have the added expense, but it seems like the way to go. Fresh Air I'm still getting my brain around this part of the system, so please bear with me... I did some looking into Sharward's suggestion, the Fantech and it looks like a winner. Question - I was origionally under the impression that there would be a fairly "passive" way to get fresh air in, through vents that simply linked to outside that the HVAC system would then just pull air in from, but I assume there's some advantage to using this secondary Fantech unit, besides the obvious extra heating/cooling work being taken off the primary system? Ducting I finally found the motherload of posts last night on the subject of ducting and a recommendation for the perfect duct that would make all problems in my life go away: John Mansville Super Round... 10 minutes later I discovered they had stopped production after their factory had burned down around 2003 and had decided not to make the product anymore despite high demand. Grrrrrr. The other suggestion made before by Steve was to use John Mansville Duct board which I did speak to my contractor about. It seems that building our ducts from that would lower our headroom significantly so it wasn't a good fit for such low ceilings. -------------------------------- Questions: 1) Is there a newer product on the market that does what JM SuperRound used to accomplish? 2) Has anyone used the JM Spiracoustic Plus products? If so, what kind of ducts would benefit from these kinds of acoustic linings? 3) Thus far my contractor and HVAC guys still want to use flex duct. If the JM ductboard isn't an option and the flex duct is a gamble, what's the best choice for me to make on the ducting front? ---------------------------------- Some past words of wisdom on ducting from Rod G. from an older Recording.org thread: "That having been said - I do not recommend the use of flex duct - it's restrictive in nature - NEITHER do I recommend the use of standard fiberglass duct. The glass particles break loose over time and are believed to be a carcinogen. I do recommend the use of Polymer Lined duct board - and super-round. John Mansville manufactures these products - as do other duct-board manufacturers. I do not (for studios) reccomend the use of galvanized steel duct - however - if it is properly lined and stiffened - it can be used without problem - I just don't personally like it versus the available options. Do not use the auralex foam inside of metal duct. It is not manufactured for that purpose and would not be in compliance with the INternational Mechanical Code (which is CT code at this time)." A quote from someone else in the discussion: "Flex duct tends to get kinked by whatever it hangs from. If its 12" round, at some point in the run, it will be reduced to 8-10" by the things that hang it." Rod G.: "Jon, A very carefull installer may get it [flex duct install] perfect - but the very nature of the material makes it extremely difficult. The material is more restrictive (from an air flow point of view) than a rigid duct. It sags between hangers and if you picture the manner in which air travels (Very similar to water) each and every little variance in a straight line increases the loss in air flow due to friction. A reduction in size at any point in the duct increases the velocity - which in turn increases the noise........ There are a lot of reasons I do not reccomend this for studio construction. But this is my primary reason: It (for studio work) does not have the acoustic properties I'm looking for..... and this is where super duct and super round excel... Please don't get the impression that i never accept it's use - or even reccomend it's use - I do - just never in studio construction. We use it above suspended ceilings in commercial construction as branches off a main - but it is then always accessible....... so if there is a problem it can be dealt with...... I do not however - under any circumstances - allow it's use above "hard ceilings". If the ceiling is drywall - it is always hard duct on any project i am involved with. Anyway - this is the way i deal with air - and from my perspective if you go with something that you know can never be a problem - then you will never have to rip anything apart in the future. " Here's the origional thread all of that came from... More good threads I read through on the subject of HVAC http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... able+speed http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... able+speed http://www.recording.org/ftopict-15952- ... +flex+duct http://www.recording.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=17684&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=round&start=15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sharward - Thanks for the suggestion about Fantech. It'll definitely get a good looking at now. Luftweg - I think I touched on your Q's re: drainage above. Re: ceiling height, we're in about the same boat. I looked into a few methods of getting more height, including building up the foundation from below. Everything I looked at started to get into the 10k-20k range and that's when I just said, "I can't even start to think about this...". It's not going to be ideal, but I think it'll be workable. Whoa. That's a lot of typing. I think I'm going to step away from the computer now. Any thoughts on my questions above appreciated very much! Be well- Lee

Wow, you've been busy! 8) Looking good -- and I'm really glad that you're committed to doing whatever it takes to protect the structural integrity of your house. Engaging the structural engineer is the best in a series of great decisions you're making. It is indeed a shame that you won't gain more than an inch of usable space down there... :roll: I'm sure we're all thinking it, including you, but I'll say it -- are you sure you can't maybe do a deeper dig? Perhaps you can consider another "ledge thing," where the inner ledge gains you an inch and then maybe there would be a step down another 7 or 8 inches...? :roll: I'm envisioning the floor/slab itself being a separate pour, after the "ledges." For ventilation, I think you basically have two choices: having operable windows (which is obviously not a choice in a studio context), or having mechanical ventilation. Mechanical ventilation is the opposite of "passive" ventilation. So, yes, you'd not only need it to be forced air, but it would have to be enough to exchange a certain amount of air in the room a certain number of times per hour (Air Changes per Hour, or "ACH"). Your local codes dictate the ratio. I think mine is 0.5 ACH, or 1/2 the room per hour. I'm sure the Fantech HRV will be overkill for my needs, but fortunately it has multiple speeds. Credit for finding Fantech goes to Dan Fitzpatrick -- he's the one who turned me onto them. 8) Keep us posted with your progress! Looking great! :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

For ventilation, I think you basically have two choices: having operable windows (which is obviously not a choice in a studio context), or having mechanical ventilation. Mechanical ventilation is the opposite of "passive" ventilation.

Keith, when I reference "passive" I mean passive in the sense that the fresh air system does not contain a fan dedicated for the purpose of providing fresh air. Rather - the fresh air inlet is located immediately adjacent to the return air side of the air handler unit. The static pressure of the return air will carry the fresh air into the room - you then need a relief outlet mounted in the return air duct (at least 10' from the inlet) and through the use of a barometric pressure relief damper you can maintain constant flow. This method does require the constant use of the air handler fan unit during occupied hours. Providing the required amount of air is a simple as sizing the duct for the fresh air supply. Sincerely, Rod

Rod Thanks for chiming in on this thread and your thoughts on the fresh air question. I'll speak to my HVAC contractor about your comments. I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts on the 3 questions I posed above: Questions: 1) Is there a newer product on the market that does what JM SuperRound used to accomplish? 2) Has anyone used the JM Spiracoustic Plus products? If so, what kind of ducts would benefit from these kinds of acoustic linings? 3) Thus far my contractor and HVAC guys still want to use flex duct. If the JM ductboard isn't an option (b/c of limited ceiling height) and the flex duct is a gamble (choppy air flow b/c of randomly narrowing pathway), what's the best choice for me to make on the ducting front? 4) Would the add-on of the 2 Stage Variable Speed air handler unit make up for the possible added noise of flex duct? I feel like I'm going to end up making a compromise here somewhere... ------- Keith I spoke to my contractor about possibly going down lower than 1 inch and it looks like it's a no go. I got a little swamped with details yesterday so can't recall the particulars, but he spoke with the architect and designer and they all agreed it wouldn't provide the same degree of structural support. Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for the price tag of this more complex slab pour with ledges. I'm trying to just relax and be mellow as this gets more and more expensive, but it's challenging. I have to imagine my house collapsing would be more stressful and expensive though;) Thanks guys!

I was hoping that for your sake, you might be able to do something like this...

Keith: The thing I see right off is that -- I believe -- the drain tile should at least be below the level of the floor... If the water level gets to the height of a drain that's above the floor level, hydrostatic pressure might force water through the floors, walls, or where the floors and walls meet... Even if the drain tile can empty completely (to the sump, which would pump it off), there could still be a groundwater level that -- while below the drain -- is higher than the floor. Essentially, the drain tile wouldn't even come into play for water levels that are below it. K

sharward wrote:

I was hoping that for your sake, you might be able to do something like this...

So... Lower the drain pipe? :roll:

sharward wrote:

So... Lower the drain pipe? :roll:

If that is possible, I would say yes... The sump would also have to be deeper as well... If the sump (being the collector for the drain tile) is also 'open' to the ground below (by having no solid bottom and just crushed stone under it), it might be able to keep up with a slowly rising water level. But a rapid water rise under the floor might not equilibrate to the sump level fast enough, and water could then enter the floor at areas more distant to the sump. From what I'm lead to believe, water tables follow the topography; in other words, if the ground is higher at one point along a foundation, the water level would/could be higher there too... this is one reason I guess why sumps are usually placed in the lowest (lower) point(s) of the basement. With this in mind -- and also from what I've heard/read -- I think that having drain tile ABOVE the level of the floor can sometimes be worse than no drain at all... This is apparently because it might actually provide a path for the water to ENTER the basement; I suppose this effect would be worse for an external drain tile system, than an internal drain system. Nevertheless, what would be the point of a drain tile system if it only 'kicked-in' when the water level is already 6 inches above the floor? Might as well just rely on the sump(s) only. My house has ONLY sumps which are not piped to any drain tile, only the gravel/stone/rip-rap beneath the floor... (btw, there IS some sort of 'ancient' drain tile on the outside of foundation, but it's not connected to the sumps -- and who knows if its competent?). With the addition of the second sump and surface drainage/grade modifications I've made so far, it seems to be working really well -- there's been no water in the basement from storms since the changes... but the real test would be like 6 inches of rain over a day or two... Not to hijack, but my biggest worry is not so much the surface runoff (although that still remains an issue until I re-landscape some things), but the groundwater... Hopefully soon in the future I will post details on my thread about this BIG thing in my neighborhood: the town, has curb gutters and catch basins, from ANOTHER street that's 25-30 feet HIGHER apparently draining directly into my backyard; this is some sort of carryover from when there were no houses in the lower area, and only that higher street in existence... the town conservation commision owned the land, and then sold it to the developers. BUT, they apparently did not culvert the existent drainage properly. Does it sound like the town should be responsible for this? I know if I directed drainage from my yard to a neighbor's yard, I could be held responsible. Here, the town is draining a STREET's catch basins into land, with NO easements. There are NO documents with public works that show any modifications from this (there IS a 1952 document showing the then proposed, and now existent, drain pipes ENDING in my backyard; where is the water going?) I blab enough for now.

10.18.06 update Hi all- There's been a lot of progress around here so I thought I'd make an update with some pics and some info. HVAC decisions I've finally made all decisions re: HVAC. I'm going with an American Standard system. Specifically, the following compenents: - American Standard Heritage 16 Heat Pump - American Standard Freedom 90 Comfort-R Variable Speed Furnace - American Standard Accuclean Whole House Air Filtration System The addition of the air cleaner was sort of unexpected, but since moving to Portland my alergies have gone to hades in a handbasket, so I thought this would be the perfect opportunity to try and clean up the air in the home. Fresh air will be provided by an exterior intake as described above by Rod. Pouring and taking up the old slab The exterior egress window forms have been poured, as has the beginnings of the addition to the exterior of the house which will house the small mudroom. 3 new footings were also poured downstairs as well for 3 new posts which will replace the existing posts. The old slab started coming up today and it's not much of a slab, as expected. Roughly 2 inches thick in most places. Next week they'll start pulling the old slab parts out of the basement and then digging and leveling in prep for pouring a new lab and installing the new drain system. The stairs will also get ripped out shortly. I'll post some pics now and I'll post again once more progress is made. Thanks!

I live east of Albany, 'bout 90 miles south of you - allergy-wise, if you're not already planning it I'd add a dehumidifier to the list. I've been running two of them (one near each end of the house) for the past two years, keeping RH down well under 50% and usually around 40 - prior to this, I caught a "cold" when 2 drops of rain fell on the same day, and they usually lasted several weeks. Since adding the dehumidifers, I've had 2 colds in 2 years and they lasted a couple days. These things also put out a fair amount of heat, so they can supplement/replace some of your heating bill - seems most of the ugly organisms that like to live in carpets and behind furniture and cause allergenic reactions, do NOT like humidity below about 55%, and wooden musical instruments (pianos, guitars, violins, zithers, etc) prefer around 40-42% anyway. IMO, that makes it a no-brainer. I have two units, one I'd NOT buy again because it's LOUD and you can't clean the grilles without a screwdriver - this is a Whirlpool unit I bought through Costco, $250 or thereabouts. The other, a Sharp PV-C09FX, cost about $550 at Costco 2 years ago, saw them there this summer too. This one is VERY quiet, can be used as a portable AC unit and/or dehumidifier, and cleaning the inlet filters takes about 30 seconds or so. In the summer, I put it in my editing room and put the single 5" dia. hose out the window with the (supplied) sliding baffle/screen attachment - in winter, I close the window and just let it exhaust DRY WARM air into the room (and empty the bucket every couple of days (about 5 gallons !!?!) Did I mention I've effectively NOT been sick since adding these? :D Steve

Hi Lee, Wow, I missed your update from last week. Looks like things are really rolling along there! Your HVAC choices seem great, and Steve's point about dehumidification also make a lot of sense. Wow, that concrete floor covering in there was awful! (I refuse to call it a "slab"! :x) I'll bet you're really glad to have that broken up. Luftweg, I hope you'll put that stuff about your horrible municipal storm drain issue in your thread soon! Holy cow!! :shock: Keep up the great work, Lee, and keep posting pics! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Steve Thanks for the feedback. I've been using a humidifier downstairs for about a year now and it's indispensible with things as they are now down there. I've had a barometer in my spaces for a few years now ever since I learned that my acoustic guitars cared deeply about humidity. The downstairs space tended to get up to around the 60% area and the dehumidifier sucked down tons of water. My concern about a dehumidifier downstairs is that it'll only get to moisture within each rooms space since the rooms will be so well sealed from one another, yes? The company doing the drain system does sell a monstro-dehumidifier that's over $1000 or so, but it didn't makes sense to me since in order for it to do the whole house I'd have to keep every doorway open to allow airflow... I was also thinking that the new temperature stability induced by the nice HVAC system for the space will stabilize the humidity quite a bit, no? Upstairs, I actually have had to add a humidifier to get the humidity up. According to the Santa Cruz Guitar Company, they recommend that "you should have a room humidified to 47%...". My house tends to stay around the 30% to very low 40% zone. I've got gas heat, so perhaps it's a dryer heat? Regardless, point well taken. I'll continue to look into what needs to be done to get RH dialed in. sharward : Yup. The slab was a total joke. It's a fair extra chunk of money, but the added reinforcement to the entire houses structure feels like a solid investment to me. 10.23.06 Update: Suprise: As the slab coming up was that there was a super strong oil vapour smell downstairs and entering the house upstairs. It looks like there was perhaps a small spill of oil down there from the legacy oil furnace that had been removed years back and the smell is BAD! My girlfriend and I went to bed with close to migraine's the first night. I was on the phone with my contractor first thing in the morning the next day. We had an enviromental cleanup company out for a free eval at the end of day and he didn't think it was going to be a big issue. Small spills of oil can evidently cause huge smells. A few well placed fans in some windows has done a lot of good and the headache's are gone. The problem will likely be fixed as they dig up about 5 inches of dirt to get grade where they want it to be. If not, we may have to get more into things. Stairs be gone and slab go away: On Friday they demo'd the former basement stairs and got them out. Loud. This morning there will be a conveyer belt installed to get all of the slab and dirt up and out of the space. They'll then start to get everything graded out so that they can gear up for the basement pours either later this week or next week. Thanks for the feedback guys!

I think that technically moisture in the air migrates through walls over time... Unless you have a vapor barrier (not retarder) in place, or an oil-based paint...? :roll: I'm predicting that Steve will recommend that you keep the doors open when the rooms are not in use, so as to keep humidity levels balanced. Take pics of that conveyer system! Sounds cool! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Prediction properly predicted 8) Santa Cruz Guitar co. is likely using that high a humidity recommendation because (I used to live there) most luthiers tend to recommend keeping their instruments at the humidity they were MADE in - that's most likely the reason for the high number. Most recommend closer to 42-43, but in any case the NW can't get there without help :( I'm not sure why your RH upstairs is that low, unless your instrumentation is wrong - gas heat actually tends to ADD humidity in most cases. I have four of these http://www.natlallergy.com/prod/1526/ac ... meter.html which are the cheapest ACCURATE RH meters I've found - at one time I placed all 4 of them side by side AWAY from outside walls and let them stabilize - they all read within 1% of each other, so either they are as accurate as claimed, or they all can tell the SAME LIES :lol: Back to my rube goldberg methods - RH is just that, RELATIVE humidity - this means that near a colder wall (assuming typical insulation) the RH will be higher than in the center of a heated room - this, because cooler air can hold LESS moisture before condensation takes place, so the RELATIVE humidity (as the same air cools) will rise. For this reason, I try to keep fans moving air (on lowest settings if I'm forced to be in the room with them) and keep RH well below 50 for health reasons - as far as instruments, most piano manufacturers ask for around 40-42%, and guitar manufacturers (not necessarily Harmony :wink: ) ask for a bit higher. Here's a bit more http://www.pjguitar.com/article2.htm I think a STABLE set of conditions is at least as important as WHAT those conditions are; if you allow your instruments to experience changes in temperature and humidity all the time, they will "work" glue joints, etc, more - the constant shifting will weaken construction and damage the wood (for musical purposes, as well as structural integrity). That's about all I have, gotta eat before (a) food gets cold, or (b) wife complains that I'm letting food get cold (both are typical)... Steve

11.7.06 Update: Steve: Thanks for the clarification on RH. Now that the 4 months of rain has kicked in my house is way humid - in the 50-60% range, so I may need to check out solutions for upstairs as well as downstairs if this keeps up. I'm also thinking it may have to do with the way the basements opened up at the moment though, so I'll sit tight till work is done and the HVAC system is heating and cooling the entire house and it's all sealed up tight. Progress: -Floor leveling and slab pouring, part one: In order to maintain the structural strength of the foundation walls, my contractor decided to pour the basement in 2 pours of 4 total sections. The first two sections that were poured a few days back were at a diagonal from one another which means that no single wall was ever left totally unsupported. The leveling went well. Below the slab they dropped in a vapour barrier and also started all of the trenching for the drainage and the plumbing upgrades that are happening simultaneously. Rebar for the floor and the 6" support curb was also installed pre-pour. 2 inspections for the rebar were needed to get the ok to pour over it. Evidently the special rebar that mounts into the actual foundation walls require a pricey "special" inspection that we had to do. All went well though and we got the green light. The pour went well and they spent the next few days prepping for cutting into the foundation walls for the egress windows and the larger opening in the rear of the house for the addition. The cutting began this morning and was mildly terrifying. Before I retreated upstairs to get away from the noise I heard the work guys talking about how the foundation walls were made of a rather sandy mix that has been known to cause nightmares in Portland. It looks like the cuts went well despite this and they're wrapping up as I type. Next steps: The remain two quadrants of the basement will be cleared out of the dirt that was dredged up for the last pour and prepped for their rebar, and pour. This pour will also knock out the remaining work for the new egress holes and the addition's foundation work. Hopefully in the next week and half or so we'll get on to more fun stuff like prepping for some framing or something. We shall see. My saving grace during this whole process has been not being too hung up on timelines, so I'm just trying to give it over and let it happen as it happens... Here's a boatload of pics for your viewing pleasure. Thanks!