OK some more pics:
1. The Demo crew car.
2 & 3. Wall 99% down & screen wall down.
4. Action shot of cutting the last bit of rebar.
I got a surprise. The floor between patio and garage at the old door was even, however the floor is not even from patio to garage where the wall came out... gets worse as it goes away from the door. I knew this could be, but was hoping this was not the case. Floor on patio side is 1/2" lower then garage at worse point of removed wall... the floor slopes down towards my garden area (away from removed wall) dropping 2" in the 9'.
Just so happens one of the helpers on todays job does floors. We struck a good deal. Floor of studio will be level with a new "skim" layer of concrete on Saturday. As well they are going to form and fill the 2 exposed concrete block wall cavities (from either end of the cut) with concrete.
We're going to mix all the concrete by hand in a wheel barrel. :roll:
Marc's Patio & Garage Studio
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5634.
Wow!!
Definitely thoroughly review Stick's thread. He had a similar problem in his garage -- the slab had cracked and settled, and they releveled it using "a similar procedure" (that's all I'm going to say ;-)).
With all due respect to those with similar cars.............. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Are those guys licensed and insured for liability and workers' compensation?? :shock: :roll:
--Keith :mrgreen:
Keith, Yup, all licensed and insured. Any sub-contractor I hire as "owner/contractor" I have to send the info into building department to be filed along with my permit, which has been done. MarcAre those guys licensed and insured for liability and workers' compensation??
Awesome! 8)
Geezus, is there any way these guys could come and demo here in Sweden, just for show, looks awesome.. :lol: :lol: :lol:
a
No. I've heard they're under contract with Universal Studios theme park... :) KGeezus, is there any way these guys could come and demo here in Sweden, just for show, looks awesome.. :lol: :lol: :lol: a
:lol: Classic! :lol:
Got some more stuff done today.
I ordered my exterior door from Lowes, which should be here by Sept 5.
I knocked out most of stucco and green board of my screen wall header... the inside portion.
I'll post some pics... then I got a question for Keith, Dan and/or anyone else who has added "beef up" to an exterior stucco (with lath and paper vapor barrier) wall.
1st pic is of the Fort I built for my son last month... this pic just shows the main fort. Now there is a roof over the right section, and a swing set with climbing ropes of to the right hanging from a 4x6. This is a $2000 fort. 8)
Next 3 pics are of floor around the removed wall, trying to show the un-even-ness.
another post to come in a minute...
Keith (and Stick)... I went through Sticks thread like you mentioned and I don't think self leveling epoxy would work for me, in regards to leveling out my floor. PLEASE any one correct me if I am wrong but a thin layer of concrete would be better to rest my new walls on. I will have two exterior and two inner walls sitting on this new layer of concrete which will be 1/2" to 2" thick.... even though the new thin layer of concrete will be bonded to the old it will still have a chance of cracking... but it'll be under my eventual hard wood floor I don't think would be a big issue should it crack. Plus before I put the floor down I will have to do more leveling with concrete crack filler anyways, as per hardwood floor adhesive directions. :!:
The screen wall header has it's own set of issues, I wrote about this on the 1st and 2nd page of this thread as I tried to guess what it was made of. The header is hollow 2x4 frame made of paper, green board, stucco, and lath. It would have given the top portion of one of my double walls a triple leaf effect. Either I build around (well under) it, rip the header out from the entire patio OR take out just the part where my new wall will be. :roll:
Code is I need sheathing attached in a way that will meet wind sheer for hurricane winds along the entire wall.
If I build new wall under this header then I should have to add plywood sheathing in the beef up manner to the inside of this header against the outer stucco, then cleat it in... however I'm not sure that would pass an inspection.
I am going to call my inspector on this.
If I remove at least the portion of the header where my new wall is going, I'll have an entirely new wall with the plywood sheathing up and down the entire wall on the outside where it's suppose to be. I'll be able to set back the wall enough so that the finish layer of stucco on the outside will come flush with the stucco above the wall. The existing construction of the header and wall of attic above is only stucco (and some green board)... my new wall will be thicker because of plywood. Not removing the existing header would mean setting the new wall back 3/4" (the bottom plate of the of the header would be 3/4" overhanging from the top plate of new wall)
So question for Keith and Dan... after reading the above and having your experience with adding "beef" to uneven stucco of an exterior wall... would you rather beef up plywood alone OR plywood and a small amount of stucco.
After typing all this I think I'm going to end up taking that portion of the header out. A little more work, but for code, sound isolation and exterior finish it's the best choice.
See pics of header below.
1st is outside.
2nd and 3rd show the inside portion. Paper is there most of the way but not all. There are lumps of stucco all over the inside of this wall.
Marc :twisted:
Hey Marc!
I have to admit that while the photos are very helpful and your description of your dilemma is very detailed, I'm having a bit of trouble following all of the options you're weighing.
That being said, I'll say this.
You will be surprised, perhaps shocked, at the nailing schedule of shear wall panels. Along the edges, it's probably one nail every 2 to 3 inches. Of course, don't take my word for it, because my codes aren't your codes and what was done on my house six years ago may not even be in accordance with today's codes. So, yes, definitely consult with your local building department for the best approach.
I'm surprised this didn't come up in your dealings with your architect... :?
I don't think having a "partial third leaf," especially one that only exists for maybe one foot of an eight foot wall, is anything to worry about, isolationwise. However, my gut tells me you may be better off yanking out that non-structural header so that you can do the "ultimate" wall there.
I am, however, having some pretty serious concerns about your concrete "slab" to which you intend to attach this new wall. :roll: Now, granted, not everyone (in fact, very few) would go to the great lengths I have in pouring a new slab. However, one of the factors in my mind was seismic stability, just as hurricane force stability is in yours. That concrete slab outside is surely not a structural grade slab -- it's probably quite inferior to the slab in your garage, which is inferior to the slab inside the house. How thick is that patio floor, anyway? :shock: Structural slabs are engineered to support houses. That patio floor was "engineered" to support... Patio furniture and people walking on it? :roll:
Personally, I'd like to see you excavate and pour, at the very least, a structural footing (complete with rebar) on which to attach the new outer wall... And, ideally, remove the "patio slab" and pour a new slab in its place.
You're probably shaking your head at this point, which is understandable... But I had a neighbor once who had a sunroom built in his back yard on what was his patio. The contractor had to replace the patio with a structural slab. That was standard operating procedure for that sunroom builder, and for all I know, was/is required by code.
I hope Rod is tuned into this. In the event of disputing advice between him and me, definitely listen to him!
Bottom line, in my opinion anyway, that wall will only be as strong as the soleplate on the bottom of it, and the soleplate will only be as strong as the footing to which it is attached.
Think about it.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Actually, I just looked at that last photo more carefully, and it appears the garage slab and the patio floor are monolithic. Perhaps that's a good sign... Not ideal, but better than I had thought, hopefully...? :roll:
At the very least, you might be able to use a medium-weight (25-30 pound?) demolition hammer, not unlike the guy was using along the top of the concrete block wall that was removed, to cut out a good amount of rough area where the wall was, and then patch the hole with a concrete patch...?
--Keith :mrgreen:
Keith,
I am getting ready to go to work (gig) so I'll type this reply kind of quick.
Patio Slab is the same grade as my garage slab, it's about 5" thick (I think, I'll have to dig it up to confirm). I questioned the hell out of my architect about this, when planning for the drawings and he said my patio and garage slabs will take the weight of the walls I am planning on.
The footer of the removed wall that is left... The concrete guy "the hulk" is coming back to chip/grind away the rest of it to somewhat flush. The hole which is left will be solid filled with concrete... so what will remain will be 2 rows of concrete block (that is what remains of these 2 (or 3) rows of original footer of removed wall) and new concrete.
As well the "hulk" ripped starter rope out of his saw near the end of the demo day. He's got one last "trim" cut for one corner of the block wall to make it flush with the 2x4 wall which divides garage and family room.
BUT now after some reading and one conversation with a friend I'm wondering if leveling should be done with concrete OR something else, maybe the epoxy... don't know have to do more research. The objective is to have floor level enough (edit: flat enough) for wood flooring which is no dip or rise large than 1/16" (edit: 3/16"). The deal I struck with the conrete guys was $400 to fill the exposed concrete wall blocks with concrete, fill the removed wall footer and level out the floor with concrete.
What is "owed" to me to complete the removal job is cutting the corner of the wall and grinding/chipping the footer.
ALSO I may be able to grind the garage floor down a bit to level everything out instead of adding concrete... I not figured out yet whether this is possible or not.
The other major concern I have is adding to much material to my existing slab loosing height in the room in the end. I could loose 2"... as is I'm working from 100".... minus: min 1- 5/8" additional drywall on existing ceiling, 1" air, 5.5" for 2x6 inner ceiling joists, min 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue, add 1" for the hell of it, then 2" to 3" for the flooring....
I've typed to much, don't even have time to add that up, got to go to work.
Marc
I would think that grinding is a non-starter. Sometimes I see that on sidewalks where tree roots have lifted up a section or two -- it's a cheap effort to even things out a little. It's anything but smooth and even.
Perhaps you can frame the wall using double soleplate, firmly anchored to the edge of the slab outside (which I really hope has a thick footing under it!!! :shock:), then leveling the floor with an epoxy or something up to the wall frame. This way, the wall will sit directly on the concrete and not on your "filler" material. :roll:
--Keith :mrgreen:
Marc, I wouldn't bet on it. The fact that the slab was poured monolitic with your garage isn't indicitive of anything. Frost heave isn't an issue in Forida - and that's the only reason that we (here in frost heave country) avoid doing things like that. So it's no problem (in your state) to pour a simple slab extension like you have at your house. BUT - even if the slab is the same thickness as your garage - the garage isn't being carried by the slab - it's being carried by the foundation and footing constructed to bear the load. This is very evident in your photos. Understand that the load (in your case) goes both ways - up and down. The down load (gravity load) is very apparent - the upload is wind design for hurrican force winds. I would be very VERY surprised to find that this same footing and foundation was poured to carry your patio slab - and the slab itself will not withstand the gravity load - nor will it act as a counterweight when it comes to uplifting windoads (always a concern in your state as noted above). I would not consider any construction on that slab until I excavated the entire perimiter and witnessed the block foundation and footings. As a matter of fact -0 I would be very surprised to find an inspector in Florida who would allow you to construct on that with out first proving to them that this was the case........ so make sure to take plenty of photos for them if (indeed) the footings and foundation do exist. Sincerely, RodPatio Slab is the same grade as my garage slab, it's about 5" thick (I think, I'll have to dig it up to confirm). I questioned the hell out of my architect about this, when planning for the drawings and he said my patio and garage slabs will take the weight of the walls I am planning on.
Dang... I just typed a but load of a post and lost it all... URH
Don't you HATE when that happens?
I especially hate the "feature" in Internet Explorer that makes the "Backspace" button act as a "Back to previous page." When you're typing in a text box, Backspace --duh-- deletes the last character you typed... But if you manage to click outside that text box and then hit Backspace, --BLIP-- everything you typed is lost! :evil: Or how about hitting Esc? That clears the entire form!! :x
Tip: Use the "Preview" button regularly. That essentially saves your post while you're working on it. Then, whether you accidentally hit "Backspace" outside of a text box, or accidentally hit Esc, you'll at least have what you had when you last hit "Preview." 8)
I hope you type it in again soon -- I'm eager to see your response to Rod's words of wisdom! :)
--Keith :mrgreen:
Man I usually write lengthy posts in Office Word or Outlook… just relearned a lesson. This post is going to be shorter then the one I just deleted by accident. :twisted:
Rod, thanks for dropping in.
Sharward, thanks for keeping a sharp eye.
1st for those like me who do (did) not know what a monolithic slab is see following link from www.infoforbuilding.com and look half way down page.
Foundation Options
See my site plan wall section attached below.
My site plan shows a monolithic slab, with footer. I DO NOT have a footer underneath the edge of my concrete slab. I dug it up months ago with the concrete guy “the hulk” when I was considering concrete block exterior walls.
It gets worse:
Also see existing double 2x12 gang nailed header on site plan … which does not exist. This was my architects guess as to what my screen wall header was made of. In the rest of my drawing he shows the 2x12 header bearing on top of the concrete walls at either end of my patio. The 2x4 farme header actually “hangs” from end truss of my roof and attaches to the sides of my concrete block walls.
The studs of my new wall below this header are suppose to be hurricane clipped/Simpson tied to the 2x12’s.
I’m waiting on a call back from architect to address these issues BOTH of which I made him aware of before and as he drew the plans (and redraws)
I am planning on calling my building inspector almost no matter what my architect says. Hopefully I’ll get a good indication of what I can do to make my project pass and not fail. Maybe I might even get a pre-inspection.
The hulk has put footers underneath existing slabs previously. His method is to dig out trench underneath the edge and fill it with concrete making sure it attaches to the slab. Method for putting a footer under the wall which will divide my patio would be to cut out a slice of the patio slab, dig out a trench and fill with concrete. I am hoping I do not have to do this however it won’t be up to me, it’s up to inspector. Neither of these walls will be load bearing of roof, however as mentioned they do have to meet hurricane sheer and be properly attached.
The hulk will be here tomorrow morning to finish the removed wall as work I described in previous post which he owes me. I’ve canceled the work for Saturday to level out with concrete the patio slab, I got bigger things to worry about till then.
My wife is really not thrilled (nor am I) that in the middle of hurricane season we have a 9’ 8” by 8’ 4” hole in the side of our garage.
I may try on Sunday and Monday to get the interior frames up (walls that will separate garage from new room). Then I can get those frames inspected (maybe I'll get inspecter to look at exterior wall situation at that time) and then get at least one layer of drywall on them so that my garage is closed off for security purposes and to keep critters out. We’ve got cats, rabbits, snakes, raccoons, birds and god knows what crawling around in our back yard and vacant land behind us.
SIDE NOTES…
Inpsections here are suppose to happen the day after you call.
When I went to the dump the other day with almost a ton of concrete it was free... I did not get it wieghed.
I got the architect through the general kind of contractor (come to find out does not have a contractors license) who used to live next door.... I've learned there may be some issues with him
Do shabby contractors refer shabby architects?
Another neighbor with exact same house as mine recently enclosed his entire patio with out a permit. I’m 99% sure he did not pour a footer under the edge of his patio slab, he poured 5” of new concrete over the entire slab to bring it to the same level as the rest of the house and put up a 2x4 wall. He did not hurricane clip anything. For stucco finish on the outside he did a real good job of matching to existing, however now it is cracked all over the place and he does not know why.
My mother in-laws neighbor just enclosed his car port with a permit. Got to question him on what he did. He put up 2x4 walls and a new roof. I am pretty sure he attached them to a concrete driveway with no footers.
GOOD NOTE. My new Dell E1505 laptop was not one of the 4 million which had the battery recall. :D
Same as last week I got extra gigs for this weekend, so at least I making some money to pay for this.
I've been keeping track of evey penny I've spent so far. This week has put me just over $5,000 and still I haven't got a single wall up :twisted:
Marc
I'm sorry you're having this rather urgent challenge before you, Marc. You deserve better. You hired and paid for expert advice, got your permit in order, hired a licensed and insured contractor, and proceeded with caution. How you have a gaping hole in your building and you're quite understandably worried about hurricanes and security while you resolve this issue.
If I lived near you, I'd take some time off of work and give you a hand with this... Even the gruntwork.
I know you've spent a lot of money so far, so you're probably not very enthused about spending more than you need right now. However, I think the best solution is to remove the 9' x 9.5' area of the slab where you room is going to extend out to, dig 18" wide x 12" deep footings around the entire perimiter, tamp everything down really tightly, lay down plastic and #4 (1/2") rebar, and pour a new monolithic slab with 12" long J-bolts embedded in the concrete, pretty much just like I did.
Yes, you might be able to get away with doing something less involved than that. However, I think few would argue that the solution I described would be ineffective.
Benefits: level slab, excellent protection against hurricane forces, level surface for your new floor, and no worries.
Yes, it's a lot of work... :roll: ...which is why I think you shouldn't spend any time stressing out about it -- just dig in (literally! ;-)) and do it.
I thought about the fact that you might be able to get away with just cutting and digging the footings. However, when all is said and done, that's still an awful lot of work, and then you'll still have that sloped floor to deal with. :roll:
I'll bet if you just pulled out the stops and kicked butt on it, you'd have it wrapped up pretty quickly.
I have a nice how-to DVD on building a monolithic slab that I'll be happy to donate to the cause... If you PM me with your address, I'll mail it off to you.
Hang in there, Marc. We'll get you through this rough patch.
--Keith :mrgreen:
:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
:roll:
urh,
Well I can say I've been through worse situations than this, and those are stories which I will not share here.
Marc
Keith,
BTW thanks for the kind words/offer.
Just to make sure we're on the same page my patio is completely under the roof of my house, does not "extend" from house. I don't think makes any difference BUT see pic below of patio 6 months ago.
I've just been doing more hardwood floor research. I gave a wrong number and wrong wording in a previous post. Floor should be flat (not necassarily level) to 3/16" in a 10 foot radius or 1/8" within a 6 foot radius. I could live with not being level... 2" out in 9' is not a big deal (I think), BUT I can not live with with squeaks and loose woodflooring resulting from not being flat. Speical conrete leveling (well flatening) products are available. I can also put 3/4" plywood down before the (most likely cheap $1.18 per sq foot laminet) wood flooring. I've got lot's of slightly used 3/4" plywood already.
Above may be wishful thinking but depending on how this works out it may be an option.
I am still strongly thinking about "rush framing" my enterior walls over the weekend... that's on my garage slab. I could call the inspector tommorow (friday) he'll come out on Monday (hopefully) I'll either pass or fail the inspection BUT more important he'll see my exterior wall situation.
Man I wish I did not have 3 gigs between now and Monday, non of which I can cancel.
Marc
I'm in between gigs for the day... quick up date.
I talked to Keith on the phone today!!!!!!! Again thanks for your time Keith. We discussed my current problem, possible solutions and lots of side stuff which related to it.
The "hulk" came by this morning around 8am without his demo saw or grinder?? to finish the wall removal. We reviewed the footer thing. He went to go get his saw and he's a typical Florida contractor. He never came back today, said his brother has the saw and once he brings the saw back he'll come over... it's 5:45PM now... oh well.
I talked with building department today, explained architect's drawing include conditions that do not exist... I can not remedy this myself with my own drawings or plan... Architect must redraw.
I called my architect (Lenny) again today and left a more desperate message.
Then I thought F it, I called the Architect Engineering firm which has there stamp on my drawing. I've dealt with the owner previously, he even recognized my caller ID and picked up phone saying "Hello Mr. Dobson." I said "I have a drawing Lenny made with your stamp on it." He said "God bless you soul"
I explained the situation to him. I will take the drawings to him Monday morning along with pics of actual condition of header and footer and he, not Lenny will redraw... then the drawing has to go through the permit office again.
So definitely I am going to build my interior walls this weekend. If all goes well I can get them inspected on Tuesday, and put up drywall.
Marc
:twisted:
Wow -- apparently "Lenny" has made quite a reputation for himself, eh? :roll:
BTW, when you originally had talked about doing your "interior walls" first, I thought you meant your inner leaf walls. I have since come to understand that you mean your outer leaf walls that will separate your studio from the garage.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Eh Keith,
No problem. Just goes to show we have to choose our words correctly and really look at the pics, or even the best of "us" may not understand.
In reviewing your thread over the past week I kept looking up at your ceiling and wondered why you had cut out existing drywall where you attached your new walls... duh new walls should be directly attached to existing frame.
I saw a "how to" some where on the net where a new wall was just put up under the existing drywall. That's what I had in my head for months now. I'm not looking forward to it but I'll be busting out more drywall (and stucco with green board on patio side) from my ceiling to attach these new walls to. Plus most likely, I got to add in some blocking between joists for one wall. Becuase of this additional work I hadn't thought of, I hope I can get these 2 interior (outer leaf) walls done inside 2 days.
Still considering whether I'm going to "tip the wall in" OR build it in place using the toe nailing method.
Marc
Yeah, in retrospect, I might have gotten away with not cutting those holes in the ceiling. In fact, since the outer leaf walls are not truly load bearing, the trusses should be allowed some latitude to rise and fall via the use of clips with slots for the nails. I describe this in some detail in my thread. Perhaps these clips can be installed in the attic with smallish holes drilled in the drywall to allow the bottom portion of the fastener to drop down into the garage, which would then be attached to your top plates of the new walls...? :?
Note that I did not see these fasteners at Home Depot yesterday, so you may have to special order them...? :?
Dare I ask -- what does the architectural drawing call for?
--Keith :mrgreen:
For the interior (outer leaf in my case) walls the architectural drawing has no description at all of how they are suppose to be built. Last night I looked at a bunch of Internet "how to's" on building non-bearing interior/partition walls. Most show no ceiling drywall in the way, some say rip it out and it seems like most say leave it, all depends on how strong you want the wall to be. Then I'm thinking... just go for the code. I went to www.floridabuilding.org and by the time I found the right page (also got side tracked looking at other code) I couldn't read the computer screen anymore, I fell asleep on the couch... So by the end of tonight got to confirm code (if there is any) and make a shopping list for tomorrow. MarcDare I ask -- what does the architectural drawing call for?