Found This Site Too Late...Help

This is one of the best turnaround success stories on the site! In contrast with your initial post, Nash, you're not a big dummy. 8)

Forgot to mention - drywall mud cures better in AIR; so instead of the method I suggested above, it's probably better (and faster cure) if you use a LONG straight edge and strike off the mud flush with your stiles and rails, let it cure, sand it, and THEN add MLV and ply. This way you'll know whe the mud is dry enough, and won't be tempted to stand the door up early, causing a sag and having to start over. Congrats on a job well-done, and pop the cap on one for me while you're at it... Steve

Hey man, congratulations on a job well done. I don't mean to sound nosy or anything, but I'm looking at doing something VERY similar to this and was curious as to a cost estimation. Thanks man, congrats again. Also, any recommendations for one of those SPL meters, preferably under 60 dollars? Thanks!

spitfire909x wrote:

Also, any recommendations for one of those SPL meters, preferably under 60 dollars? Thanks!

Radio Shack $49.95 the last time I checked. It won't go very LOW though (the bottom end is about 50 dB but for relative measurements, it works fine. len

Knightfly, While we're on the subject of doors, you recently had an epiphany about using hollow core doors with a layer of MDF on each side (with the result better than a solid core door). I searched everywhere for the link but could never find it. Any hints? len

Reference section, "installing a door...", first page near the bottom - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1662 Keep in mind two things though; one, this would be ONLY for a SINGLE door setup, since it's ALREADY m-a-m construction, and two, that method would be a slight improvement over a single solid door for VOCALS, but the solid wins by 1 or 2 dB for low end- and TWO solid doors (full thickness, NOT paneled) kicks either one's butt... Steve

spitfire909x wrote:

Hey man, congratulations on a job well done. I don't mean to sound nosy or anything, but I'm looking at doing something VERY similar to this and was curious as to a cost estimation. Thanks man, congrats again. Also, any recommendations for one of those SPL meters, preferably under 60 dollars? Thanks!

Thanks. And you're not being nosy. Costs of these projects are a very important aspect. However, remember costs are relative to location, size of the project, do you do your own labor, etc. I specifically had my garage built for this purpose, although knowing what I know now, and the necessity of building a RWAR, I'd have built it a bit bigger (the garage is 18x20 and I ended up with 16 1/2 by 18'). The garage ran $10,500 and I had a garage company do the whole thing...slab, framing, siding, roof...everything. I ran the electric myself, as well as the ventilation and I'll be installing a mini-split in the spring. The new RWAR cost $4,500 including materials, framing, insulation, drywall hanging and finishing. I did the "beef up" of the outer walls myself. Plus the incidentals of acoustic caulk, elec boxes, switches, doors, all that stuff is another $600 or so. Then there's trim, paint, lighting (I'm installing par 64 stage lighting, which I'll also use when performing...yes, I know they're hot but sometimes you have to suffer for your art :P ). You could certainly spend less (i.e. no trim, paint, and a single 50 watt light bulb). Sorry for rambling. All totaled I did it for around $5,600.

Well...got the two ventilation units I created installed, one bringing in fresh air and the other exhaust. I'm putting them on rheostats to control the airflow. These are 6" fans, rated at 250 cfm...but I'm sure after all the bends in the lines, the CFM is down around 130 or so...they do give off good airflow, though I can't be certain exactly what the CFM is. Still have to build and install the silencers :evil:

You planning to put the wiring connections into a junction box? I'm pretty sure you can't leave them that way... :roll: Are you planning to encase your fan(s) into your silencer boxes? If so, be sure to provision some kind of access in case you need to service them. You definitely have to have your junction box accessible. Good luck with the silencers! 8) Take lots of pictures!! :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

You planning to put the wiring connections into a junction box? I'm pretty sure you can't leave them that way... :roll: Are you planning to encase your fan(s) into your silencer boxes? If so, be sure to provision some kind of access in case you need to service them. You definitely have to have your junction box accessible. Good luck with the silencers! 8) Take lots of pictures!! :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

Technically, the cable should be in a junction box. But given the whole unit will be encased in a silencer, I'm forgoing the box and walking on the wild side of danger :P . Here's why. Consider the old time electric conductor, Knob and Tube wires, which are allowed to exist in walls, attics, and spaces unlikely to be trespassed on by people. K&T in and of itself is relatively safe, even though most of the time, especially in old homes, the insulation is worn away leaving an exposed wire. But since the hot wire and the neutral are usually spaced a safe distance apart, chances are slim there will be a problem. Now modern electric cable, commonly called Romex, with it's insulation composed of synthetic material is very safe, as long as the circuit is not overloaded. Given the cable connections will be encased in the silencers, which themselves will act as giant junction boxes, albeit with limited firestopping ability, I see this setup to be sufficient. There will be an access panel to service the fans. Was I rambling? :P

Building codes evolve (read: get more strict over time) for a reason. Oftentimes the reasons are buried in six-foot depth plots. Using your logic, we should just forego boxes altogether and just attach outlets and switches to walls with the connections inside the wall cavity. Fans vibrate. Wirenuts loosen, particularly when subjected to vibration and numerous hot/cold cycles over time. Here's an article on the Better Homes & Gardens Web site about Choosing Electrical Junction Boxes. What causes electrical fires?

Electrical fires most commonly occur at "weak points" in the system, these are where the cables have been cut and joined, or where they have been cut and connected to a power point, light or similar. These points can enable moisture or dirt to build up across "live" terminals, or, the connections may loosen with time and localised heating will occur.

...also...

An electrical fire can be defined as a fire where an electric current or electrical fault is found to have been the ignition source. Some examples would be . . . Overloaded wiring - Where the electric current flowing in the wires exceeds the rating of the cables. The wiring heats up and melts the insulation and can set fire to flammable material nearby. . . Loose wiring connections - The current flowing through the wiring encounters resistance at the connection and generates heat. This can start a fire in the wall at the back of a power point, in a wiring junction box in the ceiling, above light fittings or inside a switchboard. . . Electrical "arcing" (or sparking) - Where wiring insulation has been damaged by an external occurrence**, and which lets the copper conductors inside a cable just touch one another, or to just make contact with the metal case of an appliance. . . (Source)

**Like, maybe, vibration from the fan motor?? :shock: I think you need to reread the "Permits, Codes, Licenses -- and WHY YOU SHOULD CARE!" thread. While it can be argued that it may be your right to put your own life in danger, it's not your right to put the lives of others in peril, simply because you chose "walking on the wild side of danger."

Keith, I was being facetious about "walking on the wildside of danger" and no I don't always ignore "building codes". Prior to becoming a songwriter, I used to be a licensed electrician, so I do know the ins and outs of what is proper and/or required by the NEC. I can also look at a given situation and assess if a compromise can be made without compromising safety. Putting a box in the silencer would eat up too much room, given there's 2 layers of fire rated 5/8" lining the entire inside, as well as fiberglass. In addition, the connections won't be made with wire nuts, that was temporary to test it. They'll be soldered, encased in shrink tubing and wrapped with friction tape. Bottom line, while I certainly respect your view on the subject, I wouldn't do anything I deem unsafe to jeopardize mine or any other person's life.

soldered electrical connections - NOT LEGAL anywhere in the NEC I'm aware of. Tight wire nuts are actually better, because if a soldered joint ends up passing the amount of current a short can create, the solder will MELT leaving a possible ARC solution. Like as in "arc" welding, like as in 4-5 TIMES the kindling point of wood, etc... My software copy of the NEC is on my other machine (presently not available) but I'm 100% SURE soldering isn't allowed, period. I'd have to check, but think Keith may be right about the box requirement, even tho it's "outa sight" - even a small duplex box should work, can't take THAT much space :? Steve PS - similar fans I've used already HAD a small box mounted on the side :roll:

knightfly wrote:

soldered electrical connections - NOT LEGAL anywhere in the NEC I'm aware of. Tight wire nuts are actually better, because if a soldered joint ends up passing the amount of current a short can create, the solder will MELT leaving a possible ARC solution. Like as in "arc" welding, like as in 4-5 TIMES the kindling point of wood, etc... My software copy of the NEC is on my other machine (presently not available) but I'm 100% SURE soldering isn't allowed, period. I'd have to check, but think Keith may be right about the box requirement, even tho it's "outa sight" - even a small duplex box should work, can't take THAT much space :? Steve PS - similar fans I've used already HAD a small box mounted on the side :roll:

Actually...twisting conductors together for splices and then soldering them is still an acceptable method of making connections. In the NEC 110.14(B) this sentence appears: “Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered.” Tightly twisting the conductors together makes them mechanically and electrically secure and prepares them for solder. So soldering, IS permissible. Also, HMP solder has a melting point of 565-574°F. The insulation on NM cable (non-metallic cable commonly called Romex, which is a brand name) has a melting point of around 340°F degrees. If one were to exceed the ampacity of a given conductor, the insulation would go long before the solder (although the breaker or fuse should trip first). In addition, the conductor is mechanically secured, i.e. twisted, thereby preventing any arcing. While wire nuts are acceptable, I prefer soldering, as it's simply a better, stronger, more reliable connection...period.

Got the doors "beefed up" yesterday...and man they're pretty heavy. Took Steve's suggestion and filled in the paneled areas with mud and let it cure. Then I added 2 layers of LMV, 1/4" MDF, and 1"x2" poplar strapping around the edges and center to mechanically secure everything to the steel door. Boy they swing NICE. Feel like a real studio door with it's heft. :P Before hanging the doors, I removed the original door frame hinge screws and replaced them with 3" screws to bite into the framing studs. I also replaced the door hinge screws (fastening the hinge to the actual door) with larger screws as well. A ball latch is used to keep the door closed and works great. I have it temporarily installed (to see if it'd work) and I need to fashion a better "seat" for it as there's a slight gap. Also, I'm going to forego using the pnumatic door closer since there really isn't a need for it. The last step is to enhance the door seals, which are adequate but I feel can be improved. I'll have some sound meter readings regarding the doors soon. Here's some pics:

thanks for the door details ... what kind of flexible seal is that between the door and the jamb, how is that working out. i was wondering what to use there. also, if you end up needing more isolation on the doors, you could mount insulation on the interiors of both doors, that will improve isolation quite a bit i believe, don't know if that is already planned.

I stand corrected on the solder thing; just searched the entire NEC on "solder" and my understanding came from comments regarding GROUNDING system and SERVICE conductors; no solder allowed there. Thanks for the tweak; prob'ly save me missing a question on the next CE stuff... Steve

Well the day everyone longs for when building something has finally come. I'm totally done...finito! And it all works so well, it's so cool! :P This wouldn't have been possible without all the help I received. Thanks again! The inner door was somewhat of a challenge, since it didn't use a doorknob and sealing it tight was imperitive. I added two more ball locks, for a total of three and it seals nice and tight. I also added weather stripping to the edge of the doors where it meets the door seal and that helped a lot (by about 3-4db). The inner silencers turned out better than expected. I'm waiting for round vent covers I ordered to come in. Both have access panels, although it's hard to see in the pics since the screws were painted and the seams blend in. I did some final informal tests. I only tested by the entrance, as this is the weakest link ( I also couldn't get readings from the walls due to ambient neighborhood noise of 58db). Using a tone generator on Pro Tools and bussing it to seperate channels for each frequency, I recorded and burned to a CD, a set of test tones. All level settings were identical for each frequency and nothing was done to alter or enhance any particular frequency (no eq, no dynamics adjustments, etc.) Each tone was played and I took readings from the same spots, center of the room, 1" from each door, and ten feet from the building. Here's the results in decibals using an SPL meter, set to C weighting: FRQ----IN ROOM----1ST DR CLOSED---2ND DR CLOSED---10' FROM BLDG 63HZ-----114-------------76------------------- 64--------------------A 85HZ------117------------80---------------------63------------------A 100HZ----120-------------87---------------------63------------------A 125HZ-----113------------71----------------------A------------------A 500HZ-----120------------64----------------------A------------------A 2.5kHZ-----113-----------80----------------------70-----------------A What was kind of startling was the 2.5kHZ test. I did it twice to be sure of the results. That must be the resonance frequency of the door??? Anyway, here's some finished pics:

Beautiful work!!! I hope to be at that stage real soon now. I started painting yesterday!!!!!! If I had to make one comment, it would be the hook and eye closer for your vent hatch. Isn't that going to rattle like crazy once the music gets going? It should be easy to fix. Since you said access with be infrequent if at all, you could just tape the two pieces together to keep down the rattling. Or, you could get a small can of that liquid vinyl (sp?) stuff you can dip the handles of your tools in to protect them. Last question: Where did you get the orange absorber material on the wall? I've been looking for that color. Again, great job. Don't be a stranger now that you finished. len

Thanks for the compliments, Len. Good for you on painting. At that stage, the light at the end of the tunnel is very bright!!!! I know exactly the excitement you're feeling. The hook and eye closer is fairly tight and when I played some LOUD music yesterday, there was no rattling at all :P I suppose I could've fashioned a more elaborate way to keep the plug in place, but didn't see the need. It's not a vent hatch, but rather the breaker box is behind there. The orange sound absorbers/diffusers were made by me out of Luaan, as a backer, and 1"x2"s, as the rails. Basically I made a shallow box. I ripped the Luaan to two different sizes, 4'x4', and 3'x5'. Then attached the 1"x2"s. I then filled them with cotton batting and stretched fabric over them, which I found at Walmart for $1.00/yard. I added thick picture frame wire to the back to hang them. I fashioned some cleats on the walls, attaching to the studs (BTW, I marked every stud's location on the subfloor for easy reference, as the stud finder has a hard time penetrating two layers of 5/8" rock). The diffuser/absorbers worked sectacularly. Before, there was a lot of slap echo, now it's fairly dead in there but still has a nice sound. I can always add a bit of reverb to vocals, drums, or whatever through the soundboard. The flooring, which I think I failed to mention is that rubber mat that fits together, kind of like a jigsaw puzzle. One side is various colors and the other is black, which I used. This stuff is very hardy and laid down easily. Sam's Club had them in packs of 8 for $15, with each square being 2'x2' for a total of 32 square feet/pack. I used ten packs and got a nice floor for $150. It's easy on the feet and way better than standing on hard concrete. It cleans easily, resists stains, and is very durable. And if one piece becomes damaged, it's easy to pull it out and replace. I may rent this out on an informal basis to other groups or someone looking to record in a quiet environment. This room is nicer than most of the rehearsal spaces over on Music Row and more effective. The place I used to rent wasn't built properly and the metal band next door to us could be heard pretty easily through the walls. But I've had a lot of people asking if I'd consider renting it out, so I may. Be nice to recoup a little of the costs.

I was really asking about the orange material you used. My wife has selected a similar color for the walls of the office/hallway area when you walk into the studio from outside. Tip O' The Day: Let your wife/girlfriend/SO select your colors. Have them SIGN the color sample strip you get from the paint store. That way, you can't ever be blamed for the "wrong" colors. Of course, in my wife's case, I apparently put the paint on wrong and that's why the color wasn't quite right. Sometimes you just can't win. :-) What kind of material was that on the absorbers? Burlap, stretch knit? I got some black and some gray stretch knit (kind of like T-shirt material) on the $1.00/yard table but didn't see anything as nice as that orange. len

len-morgan wrote:

I was really asking about the orange material you used. My wife has selected a similar color for the walls of the office/hallway area when you walk into the studio from outside. Tip O' The Day: Let your wife/girlfriend/SO select your colors. Have them SIGN the color sample strip you get from the paint store. That way, you can't ever be blamed for the "wrong" colors. Of course, in my wife's case, I apparently put the paint on wrong and that's why the color wasn't quite right. Sometimes you just can't win. :-) What kind of material was that on the absorbers? Burlap, stretch knit? I got some black and some gray stretch knit (kind of like T-shirt material) on the $1.00/yard table but didn't see anything as nice as that orange. len

I'll be honest, len, I really couldn't tell you what kind of material it is. It has a feel of nylon but it's breathable. It has some give to it and it stretches fairly well. I'm actually the "designer" of the house. I pick all colors, as my GF is somewhat design and color challenged (honey if you read this...I love you :P ).

The next time you're in Walmart, if you happen to be in the fabric section (we won't hold it against you :-) ), I'd appreciate it if you could look at the end of the bolt the material comes on. Thanks!! len

len-morgan wrote:

The next time you're in Walmart, if you happen to be in the fabric section (we won't hold it against you :-) ), I'd appreciate it if you could look at the end of the bolt the material comes on. Thanks!! len

What's wrong with the fabric section? Are you saying a man can't be a man if he peruses the fabric section? :P I did get quite a few odd looks from the old ladies though. I bought whole bolts of both the orange and blue fabric. I just looked on the orange bolt for you and it says "Unknown Material". Probably why it was only a buck a yard. Sorry...I tried.

Well, it was worth a shot. Yeah, I get a few looks too. Doesn't help that I occationally knit something to relax (ok, only long scarfs - the length being proportional to how MUCH I need to relax). When I get stares, I just hold my head up high, grab my manbag, and walk off proud! :-) len