Well am I a big dummy! Man I wish I had found this site earlier!
I thought converting a detached garage into a rehearsal space for my country band would be pretty easy. Wrong. So maybe someone will take pity on me and tell me how I can salvage what I've done.
I have a 20'X18' detached garage, stick built on a concrete pad. I "finished" it as in the diagram. Finished as in mudded, painted, trimmed...the whole enchilada. Sure looks pretty...doesn't stop much sound.
Anyway, I placed the drums in there and had the drummer play. It was still pretty noticable from 25 feet. The nearest neighbors, which are my only concern, are about 60 feet away.
Would pulling the siding off and putting limp mass vinyl on the sheathing help? Any suggestions??? Please. :oops:
Found This Site Too Late...Help
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 4796.
My suggestion would be to remove the outer layer of 5/8" drywall, remove the firing strips (I don't know why they are there anyway). Get some Green Glue, and put up a new layer of 5/8" right against the inner layer with the GG in between.
You didn't mention your ceiling. Are you sure that's not where your sound is escaping?
len morgan
Thanks for the reply.
First thing I'm doing is getting a digital SPL meter to see what exactly I'm dealing with, both inside and outside. Perhaps that will help assist in acheiving a goal of the necessary STC rating so I don't bother the neighbors when we rehearse.
I don't 'think' the sound is coming from the ceiling. It seems most prominent at the rear wall and the side walls somewhat. I'll get on the roof with the meter and see as well.
BTW, I have roughly $3,000 left in the budget. Hope this can be remidied with that amount.
Thanks again,
Nash
I would NOT get the Radio Shack SPL meter if you are trying to see if you are too loud. The LOWEST reading it can make is 50dBa and that is already too high (it would bother anybody).
You didn't say what you did with the ceiling. Also, the furing strips maybe creating a third leaf effect which will make matters WORSE. I'd still suggest getting rid of the inner most layer (the one you can see) remove the furing strips and if you want, you could try and put the same dry wall sheets back up (in the same places of course). If this didn't help enough (and I'm sure it will help some), you should still be able to get the GG and add ANOTHER layer (3 in all) of drywall.
Tell us about your ceiling! Are your wall/ceiling and wall/floor joints calked (with ACCOUSTIC calk)?
len morgan
I would NOT get the Radio Shack SPL meter if you are trying to see if you are too loud. The LOWEST reading it can make is 50dBa and that is already too high (it would bother anybody). I already bought the meter. What I did was set a stereo system with a CD in the player and cranked it. At the rear wall I was getting a reading of 105 db. Outside, right next to the same place I took a reading on the inside, I got 68db. The ambient neighborhood noise was about 58 db. So I need about another 10 db in TL...correct? You didn't say what you did with the ceiling. Ceiling was done the same way as walls, but without the furring strips and insulation was put in the joist cavity. Also, the furing strips maybe creating a third leaf effect which will make matters WORSE. I'd still suggest getting rid of the inner most layer (the one you can see) remove the furing strips and if you want, you could try and put the same dry wall sheets back up (in the same places of course). If this didn't help enough (and I'm sure it will help some), you should still be able to get the GG and add ANOTHER layer (3 in all) of drywall. Tell us about your ceiling! Are your wall/ceiling and wall/floor joints calked (with ACCOUSTIC calk)? No, did a tight butt joint and mudded the corners. len morgan
Typically, each doubling of mass gains you about 6db of isolation... So you may have to also beef up that wimpy outer leaf as well. You may have to tear out all of the drywall -- including the original layer -- to gain access so that you can beef up between the studs.
That's what I did... I beefed up with four layers of drywall plus a layer of OSB between the studs on my outer leaf, in addition to the original stucco.
It depends on what time of day it was and whether that's the only time you'd be making noise. You've already got a 37 dB TL so you've got a ways to go. It would be an interesting experiment, if you can do it) to make the same measurement the same way on the ceiling/roof. Measure the level at the ceiling then get up on the roof in the same spot and measure. If the roof construction is similar to the walls, you'd be measuring the difference between furing strips and no furing strips. One other thing you'll have to consider is that STC rating are for SPEECH in an office setting. If you look at any of the STC curves on the 'net, you'll see that there is a SIGNIFICANT drop in TL as the frequency gets lower so you'll have to make sure your walls have enough isolation at the low end to not bother anybody. lenI already bought the meter. What I did was set a stereo system with a CD in the player and cranked it. At the rear wall I was getting a reading of 105 db. Outside, right next to the same place I took a reading on the inside, I got 68db. The ambient neighborhood noise was about 58 db. So I need about another 10 db in TL...correct?
Len's right about STC... 125 to 4000 Hz, to be exact (I think).
Just did your experiment.
Inside 105db at ceiling. Oustide on roof, directly above where the inside reading was taken, I couldn't get a reading due to the ambient noise.
Let me ask you this. If I left what I have and did a room within a room, using 2 layers of 5/8, would that help?
Thanks to both of you.
Nash
It would help, but you will get better results if you removed the existing panels on the inside of the room and threw them in the trash. That's because you'd have three leaves.
Please start at the "Before You Post" announcement and be sure follow all the links/guidelines there. You do not want to rush into a solution on this. This stuff is not intuitive -- sometimes quite counterintuive actually, so you have to be very careful not to make things worse.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Yeah, iI found this out. :x Had my drummer pound on the kick drum and got a reading of 110db inside the room. Outside, the reading was 88. That sucks. Man my brain is fried from all the post reading...so much to learn. I think I may just pass out earplugs and $100 bills to my neighbors...hell, even $200 and I'd still come out ahead. :P Seriously, I need another 25 or so db reduction on the low end.Len's right about STC... 125 to 4000 Hz, to be exact (I think).
If you're up for massive amounts of tedium, the least waste of materials (already used) would be to carefully cut your two layers of inside gypsum off the studs with a razor knife (or a Roto-zip) - you'd need to use a stud finder (a good one) to find your exact stud location so you can cut the inside layers right along the studs, then use that gypsum to do inserts between your existing studs - 2 layers should do.
(Only way I know to find your studs with that construction is to first find the furring strip, then re-zero the finder (off/on) and then move the finder horizontally til you find the stud - you can cut the gyp about 1/4" toward the center of the stud from its edge and still miss the fasteners (usually) -
Check out sharward's thread on beefing up between studs.
Then, a new frame about 6" in from the old one, and at LEAST two layers of 5/8 gypsum on that - real acoustic caulk, plus all the tricks in the REFERENCE section. Fill between the studs with standard fiberglass insulation, paper facing to the INSIDE of the room, etc -
Inner frame should run about $400 or so, 2 layers of gyp for walls about $320, caulk about $80, ceiling gyp about $250, ceiling inner frame (for full room-in-room construction) 2x8's on 16" centers will span 18 feet and let you put two layers of 5/8 drywall (gyp) up for an inner ceiling...
If you want to stop drums, you'll need all the help you can get - it's do-able, but not without using 2-leaf construction... Steve
Have you tried internally fixing it? Like bass reduction traps? I think you could see a big improvement with corner 703 bass traps. Also, dampen the drums, do the goffa tape and rockwool dampening. OR hang heavy sheets around the kit. I think there is a bit of things you should try before you redo everything.
Fill
Fill, sorry but internal absorption does almost NOTHING to kill transmitted sound - especially bass. It's just another of those "non-intuitive" things we talk about... Steve
It's unfortunate that the frequencies we want to block the most are the most difficult to do. Then again, if it was easy, we'd ALL have studios! Steve's plan of removing the existing drywall (with a Roto or Dremel tool - With a bit designed for that purpose! Don't use a drill bit even though it looks the same) is a good one (as usual!) even though it will mess up all the finish work you've done. Also follow Steve's suggestion of reading Sharward's thread where he "beefed" up his walls. You'll want to make SURE that the dry wall between the studs is up tight against the OSB and calked (WITH ACCOUSTIC CALK) at each layer. You probably also want to be careful with the screws you use to attach it to the OSB. Don't make them so long that they go through the siding. If you decide to go through with this, I would personally like to know how each stage effects your TL. Measure with the inner wall removed, then after the beef up, then after each layer of the inner wall as it's built. Just to satisfy my curiosity. lenYeah, iI found this out. Mad Had my drummer pound on the kick drum and got a reading of 110db inside the room. Outside, the reading was 88. That sucks.Len's right about STC... 125 to 4000 Hz, to be exact (I think).
Steve, thanks for the advice. I really wish I could avoid installing another wall and ceiling, as I'll lose quite a bit of space. Thems the breaks, though.
For what it's worth I did ask God if he would amend the laws of acoustics so that one leaf would be sufficiant. He turned me down. :P
Here's a pic of my "pretty" room, that doesn't function very well.
You've got room to spare. I encourage you to "do it right." My room will be about 8 feet wide when finished -- starting with 10 feet, so that's going to hurt -- but I'd rather have 8 usable feet than 9 or 10 not usable feet. :roll:
Note that I used Green Glue with about 70-75% of the recommended dosage on my final layer of beef.
My thread documents the process in excruciating detail!
Hang in there... I know it must be very difficult to have to undo much of what you've done... But if you decide to go forth (and I hope you do) and if you maintain your thread for all to learn from, you can save a lot of people from going through the same minefield, and that would be therapeutic I would think. :)
--Keith :mrgreen:
Keith, Thanks for the inspiration. Man, your project is severe! Yeah, I have to do something to improve this room. It's not doing me any good as it currently sits. And as far as budget, I've upped it to $5,000 from 3K. I don't want to have to do this again. My "problem" is I like to try and see if I can reinvent the wheel and that's detrimental. As Steve said, a two leaf system is needed. My arrogant thinking is why don't I just tear off the outermost layer of sheetrock and the firring strips (BTW, I thought those would act like RC :oops: ). Then add a layer of LMV, a layer of 5/8" rock, Green Glue and another layer of 5/8".You've got room to spare. I encourage you to "do it right." My room will be about 8 feet wide when finished -- starting with 10 feet, so that's going to hurt -- but I'd rather have 8 usable feet than 9 or 10 not usable feet. :roll: Note that I used Green Glue with about 70-75% of the recommended dosage on my final layer of beef. My thread documents the process in excruciating detail! Hang in there... I know it must be very difficult to have to undo much of what you've done... But if you decide to go forth (and I hope you do) and if you maintain your thread for all to learn from, you can save a lot of people from going through the same minefield, and that would be therapeutic I would think. :) --Keith :mrgreen:
Not trying to sound "one-dimensional", but even if you were to build an entire additional wall inside your existing space, you wouldn't get as good isolation as you will by following my recommendations - God ain't gonna help you bypass the physics here, and they're simple in operation - two masses, two LARGE masses, ONE air space (one LARGE air space)
This is what works for full-range sound containment. The only way anything else will work better, is if you only need to isolate mid and high frequency sound; then, and ONLY then, would a multi-leaf barrier be better.
Bite the bullet, follow my earlier post, and enjoy your (smaller but actually usable) space - you'll thank us when you're done... Steve
I understand, Steve. Thanks for taking the time to explain and assist.
May I ask you something regarding the "beefing" up of the stud cavity?
In the following drawing there's three pieces of 5/8" rock in the cavity...nice and massy. However, at the point where the OSB is attached to the stud, wouldn't that be considered a weak link?
Basically, each stud represents 144 sq. inches (1 sq foot) that has had no mass added to it, so if you had say ten studs along one wall, that'd be like 10 sq feet of "unmassed" wall.
Does that make sense and is that not relevent?
If you built it the way you drew it, yeah, your not going to improve your situation any. You are showing (at the "bottom" of your drawing) what looks like a layer of gyp. If you do it this way, you've really only added one layer of 5/8" and a little air space and that won't cut it for knocking down drums. You want to leave the wall OPEN with the insulation exposed then build another wall right in front of it a few inches away (as much as you can afford to loose but no more than 12" or so. That measurement by the way is from the BACK of the mass on the outer wall the the back of the mass (gyp) on the new inner wall so if you put your two layers of 5/8" beteen the studs, you'll have about 1 1/2" of gap to the inside of the stud. If you put your new wall just 3 1/2 inches away from the the current studs (i.e., one 2x4 width), you'll have an 8 1/2" gap to the back of the inner most sheet of gyp on the new wall. 8 1/2" is a very healthy gap you aren't really going to loose that much floor space. You'll want to rest new ceiling joists on these new walls (and ONLY on these new walls - don't touch the structure of the building). It's a lot of work but you should end up with a very useable room that won't bother the neighbors and I don't see why you couldn't stay within your budget (the original $3K). lenIn the following drawing there's three pieces of 5/8" rock in the cavity...nice and massy. However, at the point where the OSB is attached to the stud, wouldn't that be considered a weak link?
Gotchya :D
All of a sudden all of this has clicked and makes sense. What a education I've been given over the past few days.
The only thing that seems like it'll be a pain in the ass is constructing the wall in front of the roll up garage door. Code requires the door to remain operational.
In addition, the track rails attached to the ceiling must remain. This poses an issue to build around them.
Also, the breaker box is installed in the wall cavity. Once a new wall is erected, how can I access it?
Any suggestions?
Ditto what Len said. :-)
Well got a few bids to do the framing and hang the rock.
Both were close to $4,000 for labor only :shock:
May have to bite the bullet, as I'm notoriously slow at both.
Also, I'm looking into a mini-split A/C unit. It only needs a 3" hole through the wall for the refrigerant lines. Is this a decent solution to cooling the space?
Thanks
Sorry for the stickershock. :( It happens to all of us.
For cooling, yes. Mini splits are awesome from what I've read. However, be prepared to spend big money for them. A single small cooling-only system will probably run you close to $3K installed.
However, be aware that they only cool the air in the room -- there is no fresh air coming into the room from outside, nor is there any stale air from the room being flushed to the outside. (Most air conditioners don't cycle in fresh air, by the way.)
Hence, you need ventilation. Your room won't have any windows, and code requires that you have either an window or mechanical ventilation that will exchange all of the air in the space a certain number of times per hour (the unit of measure is ACH -- Air Changes per Hour).
My thread covers this challenge in detail. That was one of my major stumbling blocks in being granted a permit by my city's building department.
I finally broke through the logjam by looking at comfort and ventilation as two separate requirements, and in my case, I designed two separate solutions.
Good luck. :-)