dbyboth
thanks for the great essay!!!...it's really make sense...
I wnated to ask to things:
1)what do you think of those:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm
As I mentioned you haven't made a corner trap but a kind of wall trap just attached to a corner and also without those wooden slats altering with different gaps nad also you used only one layer of insulation...All I want to know is are your panels as good as those I linked.It's just much easier to make your-way panels instead of those.
2)what was the effect?I mean what kind of monitors do you have and what was the difference in sound when you attached all of your panels to the wall with when you haven't them
thanks...
dbyboth
thanks for the great essay!!!...it's really make sense...
I wnated to ask to things:
1)what do you think of those:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm
As I mentioned you haven't made a corner trap but a kind of wall trap just attached to a corner and also without those wooden slats altering with different gaps nad also you used only one layer of insulation...All I want to know is are your panels as good as those I linked.It's just much easier to make your-way panels instead of those.
2)what was the effect?I mean what kind of monitors do you have and what was the difference in sound when you attached all of your panels to the wall with when you haven't them
thanks...
I can't tell you if my panels are better or worse than the ones shown but they certainly are easier to make! The ones in the corner have 4" thick Owens Corning 705. That stuff is dense and they are pretty heavy. You could, probably pretty easily put another layer and make a 6" panel if you can afford to lose the space in the corner. From everything I have read, for this type of absorber more is better in total mass for low frequency absorbtion.
As far as the effects. The first and most noticable is a dramatic reduction of ambient reverb. The room is fairly dead. With carpeted floors the bulk of the bounce is off of the ceiling and I really would like to add two panels up there as well.
The second, and very noticable effect was the imaging. I have Mackie Hr824's and a 10" JBL sub that is driven directly by an Alesis studio amp and crossed over with an Alesis EQ.
I bought the Mackies after listening to a pair in another studio. I can tell you when I first put them in my room, they sounded good but I wasn't as blown away as I was listening to them in the other studio. After installing the panels, I can sit in the sweet spot and pick out every instrument where it's panned to and visualize sounds coming from between the speakers. Now I'm blown away, especially listening to something like Steely Dan's Aja, or a great Alison Krauss mix.
The next, more subjective effect is translation. I was having a hell of a time making mixes that sounded good elsewhere, especially in the car. Upper mids and bass were especially troublesome. It was like delayed feedback mixing. It would sound great in the studio but crappy in the car. I'd have to make notes of what to change, then cut another disk and listen to it all over agian in the car. I just couldn't pick out the bad spots. Since the panels were installed, I can really guage the bass levels. The mixes.
I did some Room EQ measurements (very unscientific) using pink noise and the PAZ freq plug in. There's not a lot of resoution but there was some measureable flattening to the curve after all the panels were installed. With the sub, I get a pretty good curve down to about 30hz measuring in a corner.
Thanks dbyboth...today I'm going to put my hands on cunstruction of these panels.I've decided to make "An easier one" type...Besides I see many people on this forum a kind of "lazy" and building the panels like this...so I'm not going to stand out of the croud! :D Also my dimensions are very tight-something about 2.25(m) in height,2.60(m) in width and 2.90 (m) in lenght...so I really don't want to loose extra space in my control room.
Thanks one more time for the great essay,as I've already wrote: it really made sense for me how to do these panels.
P.S.: I hope I will be also blown away but from my Behringers... :lol::lol::lol:
Great work! you inspired me to make my own traps, where is SPI Dallas Located?
Thanks [I live in Dallas]
8)
S P I Specialty Products & Insulation
[removed]
[removed]
Dallas, TX 75229
It's near the intersection of Royal Lane & Harry Hines. The guys working there are very friendly and encouraged me to send my audio friends!
...db
Great work! you inspired me to make my own traps, where is SPI Dallas Located?
Thanks [I live in Dallas]
8)
S P I Specialty Products & Insulation
[removed]
[removed]
Dallas, TX 75229
It's near the intersection of Royal Lane & Harry Hines. The guys working there are very friendly and encouraged me to send my audio friends!
...db
Roxul RW™40 - 3.0" has good specs and apparently a good price - a friend in Kansas purchased it locally for 35c/sqft.
http://www.roxul.com/sw18207.asp
good figures:
0.62 1.03 1.20 1.10 1.08 1.10 1.10
cheers
john
Roxul RW™40 - 3.0" has good specs and apparently a good price - a friend in Kansas purchased it locally for 35c/sqft.
http://www.roxul.com/sw18207.asp
good figures:
0.62 1.03 1.20 1.10 1.08 1.10 1.10
cheers
john
35 cents Sqft.? it's way too cheap! :shock::shock:
Now I'm blown away, especially listening to something like Steely Dan's Aja, or a great Alison Krauss mix.
I have purchased some "703", and am debating how to install in my room, as it is already completed, but found out I SHOULD have put more $ into my "Acoustics" instead of just EQUIPMENT...LOL
Your comments have really inspired me , regarding what you heard when listening to Steely Dan etc, after all its about making and LISTENING to music, being inspired by the Great sounds of Albums......I could go on and on!! but... a quick question
Your issues YOU HAD, sound just like the ones I HAVE!!,
What made you , or how did you decide to use a Broadband Absorption design rather than adding the Plywood on the front of the Corner traps to just cover Bass Freqs?
Because of the Mid issues you were having?
If I use your same design w/o plywood front will I TRAP just as much Bass as Clunky Mids?
Thanks for the inspiration!
Your issues YOU HAD, sound just like the ones I HAVE!!,
What made you , or how did you decide to use a Broadband Absorption design rather than adding the Plywood on the front of the Corner traps to just cover Bass Freqs?
Because of the Mid issues you were having?
If I use your same design w/o plywood front will I TRAP just as much Bass as Clunky Mids?
Thanks for the inspiration!
Well... it really wasn't very scientific. I took some very unscientific frequency response measurements and read a lot on this forum and elsewhere and realized I had pretty much the worse shaped room for audio 11' x 11' x 9'. I had a lot of peaks and dips. It was very easy to pick out the worst ones just sweeping through the frequencies and listening. It was truly like somone was turning up and down the volume.
I want to track and mix in this same room so I chose the shotgun approach. Hence broadband absorbers of varying thicknesses and gaps between them and the walls. It seemed to me that the plywood box absorbers were more specifically aimed at certain lower frequencies. I wanted to generally deaden my room across as many frequencies as I could. I still think I could benefit by installing two more panels on the ceiling. The situation I have today is still far from perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than it was.
The other factor was cost and ease of construction. My panels were built with a hand saw, cordless screwdriver, scissors and staple gun. No table saw or other power tools required. They are also portable so when I leave I can take them and use them in my next studio.....db
Can I make this traps smaller? 24" x 24" and just put them one on top of another one? Just curiuos.
THnaks
The more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong. My take is that it's the total area and mass of absorption that counts so, yes you can do what you ask if you've a mind to...db
Can I make this traps smaller? 24" x 24" and just put them one on top of another one? Just curiuos.
THnaks
The more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong. My take is that it's the total area and mass of absorption that counts so, yes you can do what you ask if you've a mind to...db
The reason I'm asking is because this room is my "sleeping room" when I need too, or my wife decides to visit me :D [This room is not attached to the house ;) ] hte bed is in the back of the room in a corner so I want to put one trap in the corner where the bed is, so it needs to be smaller.
Thanks for ou reply! 8)
Hey Db,
Again, thanks for the inspiration in building these panels. I followed your advice to a tee and came up with some panels of my own.
Check them out here
Good luck again and wish me luck on the bass traps i will tackle next :D
Couple of points I'd like to add - one, SAFETY - very few cloth choices are treated for FIRE retardance - there are sprays available that will take care of this. (Ask Great White if they think this is a good idea :cry: ) One source on the net -
http://www.natfire.com/products.htm
Second point - size. If you build smaller versions, expect smaller results (possibly to the point of not being able to hear the results) - although building several smaller units (NOT thinner insulation though) and stacking them will work fine if it makes things easier/more portable for you.
The closer your room is to square, the more you should consider thicker insulation and WIDER traps across corners, not smaller ones. This will help smooth out the worse modal conditions in such rooms.
For a bit more strength on frames, you could add some small (6-8 inches on a side) 1/4" plywood triangular "gussets" at corners, but don't put any kind of full BACK on these unless they will ALWAYS be used flat against a wall; you get results to a lower frequency range with air space behind the absorbent. There's no "free lunch" though; as you add air BEHIND the trap, you introduce peaks and dips in response that could either help or HURT your room-tuning efforts - more here
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5786
Steve
Just another point about SAFETY.
A fire retardant/ resistant spray is a good economical choice for making your bass traps or panels safer. However, read the instructions on any product you buy as you will likely need to re-apply the fire retardant/ resistant spray at some point as directed on the can/ bottle.
Be safe first.
~ Joel
Hi,
I've read people asking about hanging methods & I instantly thought about a hanging method commonly used in exhibition & shopfitting installation. It's called the split baton & basically involves a type of easy hanging slot mechanism composed of two opposing halves cut at 45%. he benefit would be dual, maybe triple purpose. You could use them as shown in the sketch as corner braces as well as hanging brackets. At another level, they could also be used directly accross the center of your frame as a cross-brace/ hanging/support method. The wall mounting bracket side can be attached to your walls in whatever fashion suits your particular walls (of course ;-)
I've attached a link to a really quick sketch loosely drawn in MS paint of all things ;-)Recovered from web.archive.org — originally hosted at http://www.si-rus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/misc/SplitbatonBrace.jpg
I think my eyes are getting confused. That's like one of those optical illusions on the books in school. I can't tell which way things are facing/going. Are they coming out at us or going away? AHH!!!
I think my eyes are getting confused. That's like one of those optical illusions on the books in school. I can't tell which way things are facing/going. Are they coming out at us or going away? AHH!!!
erm, sorry about the hand drawn 3D views, they're a bit rough :)
I'll try to explain:-
The top view is looking down at the top right hand corner of a frame from the back. It shows a bracing corner block say, approx 100x100mm. Only it's not a 'normal' corner bracing block, as it's bottom edge is cut at 45% to allow it to slot into it's opposing half (the bracket pictured underneath it & viewed from the same angle)
This wouldn't work for the bottom corners, but a slightly larger outside-in L shape would.
For a middle height wall support & center brace for the frame you could just add the split baton accross the full width of the frame.
Whether there's a 'stand off' from the wall or not, depends on whether the split baton braces are fixed to the outside (as pictured) or the inside. If fixed to the inside you could even set them slightly inside the 'flush' level of the back of your frame to achieve a really tight fit to the wall)
Just an idea. Well, it's probably how I'd build them, but I'd like to hear what the experts & experienced guys here think of the idea.
I'll draw up some better pictures if anyone still doesn't know what I'm getting at here.
Hi again,
here's another rough sketch of the concept.
Recovered from web.archive.org — originally hosted at http://www.si-rus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/misc/SplitbatonBrace2.jpgI didn't include dimensions, as they wouldn't apply to everyone. This drawing doesn't include the opposing wall bracket section of the split baton braces. I thought that might be getting obvious :)
So what do you think guys?
A similar type of mounting method could be an absolutely fantastic way of suspending clouds, as with a little thought you could easily set it up so that you fix L&R splayed split batons at right angles to your ceiling joists (spanning 3 or 4) & fix the opposing split batons to the back of your clouds. Then all you need to do is 'SLIDE' them into place & perhaps make a single fixture. Could make life very easy for anyone hanging a lot of clouds :wink:
Yup; although you'd need to be sure the mounts were REALLY solid; a "dovetail" mount like that, when hung horizontally, would want to pull the wall-mounted rails either together or apart(depending on whether they were the inner or outer pair) and the device might fall down... Steve
Hi Knightfly,
maybe it could work well if done like this >>>
Recovered from web.archive.org — originally hosted at http://www.si-rus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/misc/ceilingmount.jpgIf you've got something decent to fix into (IE you actually have ceiling joists)
I think it should work a treat.
