Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

Buy the cheaper unit and send me the $400! :lol:

or Ill get the cheaper unit and have it chrome dipped

ok Ive been away awhile again. Keith I was just reading our last conversation about HRV and I think you misunderstood me. Ok . 1)The recommendation of not doing an attic install as opposed to a closet(essentially lower altitude i think) will run unit hotter making it tougher to heat outgoing air in summer which effectively cools incoming air. (It says in all fantech HRV and AEV installation manuels) http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/rewillia ... lation.pdf 2)If I locate my HRV unit in the upper southeast corner, in a closet like room, I have a choice between the "closet" existing in the conditioned/habitable space of the ISO BOOTH or the wall seperating the "closet" could actually be the end of th iso booth and the HRV could live in attic space(between inner and outer leaf). just wondering which would be better. 3)As for inbetween the HRV and the cheaper unit. Be not mistaken, they would be for the habitable space ventilation. The cheaper units description says it heats the outgoing yada yada the same as HRV yet its 400 cheaper. Im assuming its just not as good at the heating air exchange part, like a cheaper filament in the middle, but I dont get it. The HRV is a bit overpowered for both of us. Now for habitable space, is this cheaper unit a good alternitave. http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/rewillia ... lation.pdf 4)For attic vcentilation, if it is neceesarry to vent seperatl.y than habitable(HRV is overpowered, anyway), I can use ducted fan units that are even simpler than the heat exchangers. Turn them on in times of no isolaotion(breaks or not working) to ventillate attic . When is this ventilation most crucial hot or cold? Sorry for the confusion, if any

Mike, are you getting any closer to action or are you still in and out on gigs? I'm still not much closer to digging into the attic venting thing, if Rod shows up maybe he can shed more light on it. Otherwise, sounds like we may need to talk in person again to make sure there's no mis-communication. I keep hoping I'll get caught up enough for more reading, possibly this weekend... Steve

Well steve Id say a little of both, ready for action and out here n there. I've been cleaning up the patio area and painted it, and I'm now adding the babies room to the list. Ive been gathering materials for good deals some and feel really good about my plan. I still have vent quetions, but the idea of controllable, mechanical venting seems good to me. It gives me a "proper" unvented attic, with the convenience of ventaltion when desired. Id love to talk this weekend or early next week. I cant really talk Saturday, for I have a wedding to go to, but lets get it together and chat it up. Ive got good concrete questions, so Ill be ready. Thanx

Monday night's good, otherwise soonest for me would be Thursday nite or after; hopefully we can get your stuff all clarified so you can get going... Steve

i think mondays good here to steve. ill check with the woman and PM you later today to confirm. What time are you thinking is good for you?

From 9 pm to about 2 am, busy before and bed after... Steve

hey steve, that sounds great, if your still available. Its 8:30 now and I'm gonna write a list so hows 930 or 10.

Cool, it's quarter to 10 here now, talk to you in a few... Steve

sorry steve someone came buy and distracted me, im ready but lost your number, can you email me yours or if you have mine,call etc,

Never mind, I gave it to him.

OK. me n' steve talked last night and really cleared some stuff up. Im working on a review that I'll post later. It was great and I feel really good about the plan. Just now I was pricing mini splits. and I came across something Id like input on. Im doing cool only was going to get a dual zone cool only mini split. I thought there were 2 versions in the Mitsubishi (9000btu and 9000btu OR 12000btu and 9000btu)but there is only one, I think.(2x9000btu). We had kinda decided on the 12/9 version, so I've got to decide if the 9/9 will work. I think its OK..but then I poked around and found that a 9000btu single zone is cheap enough that if I bought 3 the price would be only $2400, where the dual zone is 2100 and it one zone less. This leads me to several different combos I can think of. What I dont understand is as far as energy efficiency goes is do seperate outdoor compressors take more electricity than 1 split. The stats are ... Single--10.1 seer, 115V power, and there is a power consumption stat that says 840 watts. Dual---10 seer, 220V(208V in chart),and the power consumption says 840 watts single,1700 watts dual Im not sure if this power consumption stat is the determination of this. If so, Im ok, but I dont understand. I also dont know if the 115 to 220 volt difference matters. If it is the same then I can do scenarios like... 1) Dual 9000btu = $2065 2)2 single 9000btu = $1500 3)1 single 9000btu and 1 single 12000btu = $1720 Now if the two 9000 (in both scenerio 1 and 2) is not enough on hottest days, I think an in-room AC(the 2 hosed unit that sells everywhere now) could be bought for the ISO and turned on only when needed. Im guessing a 70 sq ft room could be cooled for $250-300. The big question is power usage. any ideas?

Mike, the quotes I received from three licensed HVAC contractors were far higher than that -- the cheapest of the three wanted about $2,800 to install the 8500BTU cooling only unit. That includes the unit, the labor, the refrigerant/return lines, the condensation line, etc. I'm assuming you've found Internet pricing for the main equipment only. I suspect most reputable HVAC contractors won't install equipment that they didn't supply (i.e., mark up).

I actually have 3 close friends who are liscensed contractors, and will put it in for me as well as sell me the unit at thier price or very close too it. Yes these are internet prices im using as comparisons, and I realize Im not including the extras here. Im just coming at this from a theoretical standpoint in which Id like to know if all those sceneios work, so I can decide how to approach it. Even with install, the pricing should be relative where your contractor should have similar price brakdowns, just higher numbers.

Ok Id like to share some of the highlights of steve's and my conversation. Then Ill make a detailed review of the plan. My first major issue was whether I should "beef up" roof with 1 layer of drywall. This is all tangled with me trying to get high ceiling stuff, but essentialy my issue was to restructuring to hold drywall. To my surprise, after some calculations, and being aware of my isolation needs, we determined the roof(1/2 plywood, 2 layers of roofing and paper)was heavy enough and I can leave it. So final decision is orig roof, a foot of airspace and 3 layers of drywall on inner ceiling. As I just mentioned, the ceiling height issue tied in to this, and our outcome is to keep collar ties on outer roof the way they are and adding collar ties to inner roof, an inch or so under the outer collar ties. These inner collar ties will be every rafter as well. The ceiling will have to flatten out by hanging from inner collar ties. I really wanted it different, but with the blessing of no beef up, I can live with it. Next we addressed the unvented ceiling issue. Steve seems to feel I am OK in this area for several reasons and conditions: 1)the roofing paper is not a vapor barrier, so I will not have one on the ceiling and in the winter months the vapors are free to pass out of the roof. 2)My climate should be mild enough to not present any other problems 3)Steve suggested some fans in attic/airspace to keep this air slightly moving. No vent breeches,open or mechanical should be necessary. I should closely monitor and add a dehumidifier if neccessary. Is there roof heat issues? 4)Use unfaced insulation on outer walls and ceiling. I had intended to use OSB as my first layer, but steve has suggested I use all drywall. Its cheaper so thats good 4 me. I will beef up add on with 2 layers of drywall My ISO booth is not double walled and we were debating rc or clips. To be honest I cant really remember our choice there, it was a little confusing, as well as it can be financial as well. I was under the assumption that my inner and outer isulation will touch and this would provide the compression. Steve said to get 6.5" for the 5.5" 2x6 and 4.5" for the 3.5" 2x4 and strap insulation back with 1/2" yellow fiberglass packing bands so between the straps and the drywall you get your compression, yet inner and outer insul nnever touch. That is the major points from my notes and memory. I skipped alot of details we discussed, and I plan a step by step plan to include those. gettin closer

mikeklooster wrote:

I had intended to use OSB as my first layer, but steve has suggested I use all drywall. Its cheaper so thats good 4 me.

One advantage of using OSB is that it will may meet California Building Code requirements for wall bracing, depending on your seismic zone. I'm not sure which model codes have been adopted by City of Stockton. Your best bet is to ask them -- it's probably a common question/issue so they may have a pamphlet on it. When my city approved my plans, they stapled a sheet on the subject to my plans to make sure I knew what would pass and what wouldn't. --Keith :mrgreen:

hey steve, I know I said I accepted to collar tied flatrened ceiling, but Ive found some info Id love to share with you. Apperently, collar ties are horizontal straps place on the upper third of the rafter. The ceiling joists that sit on top of the wall plates are known as rafter ties and these stop the walls from moving. My original garage construction, before we moved up the "collar ties" was actually 2x6 rafters and rafter ties, but no collar ties. Now I have collar ties and no rafter ties. You may ask "so what ?". But I also stumbled upon the information that if a ridge board is supported on both sides, it becomes a ridge beam and the rafters become joists and collar ties or rafter ties are not neccessary. the new ceiling in the live room will have this construction. therefore, theoretically this ceiling can be sheathed all the way up, and no collar ties are neccesary. The problem with this cool new info is that I still need collar ties on the garage rafters, which pass throgh the live room ceiling frame under the live room's ridge beam. The problem with this good news on the live room, is I cant benefit unless I can remove collar ties from garage roof(just in live room ). I know there is no way to support the roof if collar ties are gone, but it sure sucks that I will be putting collar ties on every rafter in the live room ceiling in order to hand drywall, and the copllar ties aren't even neccessary). They said a rafter tie can be substituted by a steel rod or cable connectin wall top plates.I know risking exposing wood collar ties from garage in the live room will damage isolation, but what about these cables. You said the wood collar ties, if exposed, would transmit low end vibrations from room to outer walls, but is this because of the surface area. These cables couldnt possibly vibrate as much as wood. I have plenty of rubber to somehow decouple the cable from the drywall as it penetrates live room. I know Im rediculous, but there are altternatives to collar ties, and I just want to find an application that would work here. some info: http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimate ... 0;t=001142 http://www.mcvicker.com/resguide/page010.htm

Mike, there are several reasons why you can't use that first link as an argument to attempt suicide (which is what you're doing whether you realize it or not) - if you read "peach"s comment, he said that "In vaulted ceilings, you can't really use rafter ties, so you need to design the ridge board as a beam." He's right; your ridge board is NOT a "beam", it's nowhere NEAR rigid enough for that. It would need to be more like a 4 x 16 glu-lam heavily framed into your end gables with about twice the "beef" you have on your end gables before it could be called a "beam". Then, each rafter would be resting on a wall cap and a much more rigid "beam" - because the beam is then a stiff, well-supported surface in its OWN right, each rafter would be more able to "stand on its own" - in which case your puny 2x6 rafters would STILL come up short on span for anything but a light (single) roof covering and no drywall. The terms "collar tie" and "rafter tie" seem to be a bit localized; I've heard "collar tie" used for both, but the distinction makes more sense. Another point - if you read THOROUGHLY the comments by NJ-inspector (instead of reading just the parts that appear to support your "wishful thinking", you'll find things that support my cautions on your proposed weakening of your structhre - comments like "Raising the ceiling joist to form a vaulted ceiling requires a larger rafter size", etc - Also, at the height you've placed your "rafter ties", they are STILL called rafter ties and are STILL NECESSARY on EVERY rafter (with your weak 2x6 rafters) - in order to be considered a "collar tie", they would need to be within 1/3 of the distance between wall and ridge board from the PEAK. In that position, all they'd do is keep the peak from lifting during high winds. I'm reminded of an old church hymn - "Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho" - if you continue to try and weaken your structure for some almost imaginary acoustic improvement, it won't take a trumpet to finish that hymn (the last line of the chorus is "and the walls came tumblin' down"...) I'm running out of energy trying to keep you from killing yourself and 6 of your closest friends - please, just friggin' DO it SAFE... Steve

I'm running out of energy trying to keep you from killing yourself and 6 of your closest friends - please, just friggin' DO it SAFE... Steve

Ya well Ive already checked and Dr Kavorkian dont know shit about acoustics... Steve, please believe me when I tell you how reluctant I was to post that after our long and great discussion. The last thing I wanted to do was look like a hard deaded idiot who wont listen to reason. I am still totally willing to accept the ceiling we discussed and I WILL NOT build a death trap. But, I was reading more about collar ties, and ran into this information, and once again got my brain all worked up. Now I do trust your knowledge and experience, and would not build something you said will not work, but when I read your reply it seemed to me you misunderstood some of my post. 1)I know enough to know my ridge board of my garage roof is NOT a ridge beam. I also know that modifying old construction is not in the scope of this project.(especially for a 1'-2' high triangle more of ceiling space. 2)The ridge beam I'm speaking of is the NEW CEILING on top of the LIVE ROOM FRAMES. Since this is new construction, this can be whatever it needs to be to work as a ridge beam and the LIVE ROOM will not need rafter ties or collar ties. Now, the ONLY REASON I'm going one more round with this is because if I do the ceiling the way we discussed. I will be adding collar ties that has its bottom edge 1" to 1.5" below the collar ties of the garage roof and hanging the ceiling off of them. But. since I can build the Live Room to be vaulted, and not need any horizontal members, adding these collar tie/ceiling joist boards is only necessary because of the garage collar ties passing through the frame. Or, you can think of it as...I was trying to figure out how to build a vaulted ceiling without collar ties, and I was succesful for the Live Room but not the Garage. The problem with this is that the live room could be vaulted no matter what because I could expose its collar ties anyways. BUT, if I could find a way to modify garage to not need collar ties in the live room area, Id be set. There were also some other statements in your post that I dont quite understand.. 1)

Also, at the height you've placed your "rafter ties", they are STILL called rafter ties and are STILL NECESSARY on EVERY rafter (with your weak 2x6 rafters)

Correct me if Im wrong, but I was under the assumption we concluded..Leave collar ties as is. That is raised as they are(1/2 way up) and spaced every 4 ft(or every other rafter). Then the NEW live room ceiling would get collar ties that rest 1" below, and are placed on EVERY 2x8 rafter BECAUSE THEY WILL BE SUPPORTING 3 LAYERS OF DRYWALL. So..Is the garage OK as I described? (its like this now and has been since we met)....AND...Is this what we agreed upon for the live room? Im clear on what I think I REMEMBER we agreed on, but if Im wrong, please straighten me out here. Now, since I posted last, I have read more and have come to understand more. The way I understand it, those garage collar ties should not have really been raised at all. For a horizontal member to be in tension (which is for the RAFTER THRUST, which is what pushes the wall outward), the member must be in the bottom third of the rafter height, or within 1' of the bottom of the rafters. Now, I read alot of stuff and much of it was confusing or not exactly applicable to my situation, but I also recall other info saying that collar ties half way up do work on thrust, but a percentage of what it would on the wall plates. Being that my collar ties have been raised about nine months now and it seems OK, can I assume my raised collar ties spaced 4' are adequate for my 2 layer roof? Or does this need rafter ties to stand AS IS? Does sistering rafters have any effect on the rafter strength, without rafter ties? (I think this is no, but I gotta ask) THE GARAGE CAN ONLY HAVE 4 POSSIBILTIES NOW. A)AS IS (RAISED AND SPACED 4') B)AS IS BUT NEEDS MATCHING COLLAR TIES ON REMAINING RAFTERS. C)RAFTER TIES ARE NECESSARY, SO EITHER LOWER TIES BACK DOWN OR ADD LOW TIES AND LEAVE COLLAR TIES AS IS. If RAFTER TIES were added, collar ties are actually not necessary other than wind resistance. This is how my garage used to be. If I added RAFTER TIES now I could lose the collar ties, or raise them up even higher, or replace them with a steel strap very close to the top of the rafters. Another thing I have read is that a metal "tie rod" can work for a rafter tie if the rafter tie isnt needed for a ceiling joist (like in a vaulted ceiling). this would be attached near bottom of rafter. Now, I know this is a long shot, but I have my last attempt idea/solution here. This idea, obviously, can be modified according to the answers I've asked above...There is a serious drawback that I'm not sure of the results, and if its worth it. BUT IF I NEED THESE LOWER RAFTER TIES ADDED JUST FOR THE GARAGE AS IS, THEN PARTS OF THIS SOLUTION ARE TRULY NECESSARY NO MATTER WHAT. SO, HERE GOES... 1)Add metal tie rods to rafters of garage at 4' spacing (like collar ties now) 2)Leaving existing collar ties above Control Room and Iso is totally doable, but at least on the GARAGE rafters above Live Room use metal straps and remove existing collar ties. 3)build new live room so with ridge beam so no horizontal members are required. 4)You have probably guessed the "drawback" now, which is these new "tie rods" are passing through Live Room Ceiling framing. The reason Ive selected these tie rods as opposed to wood members other than looks, is that Im assuming the thin round profile will vibrate less and be effected by sound in live room than a wood board. But the idea of these rods acting like guitar strings has crossed my mind. My proposed solution is to drill holes in live room ceiling, and let rods pass through ceiling and live room. To decouple, I see something like a round rubber "dowel" with a hole in the middle for the rod to go through. This dowel could potentialy have a metal casing if it helps attaching to ceiling. The hole could fit the rod snug, or the rod could have a rubber sleeve and the rubber dowel hole could be large enough for this. This is an attempt to seal and decouple this pentration. When I visualize this solution, I cant help but think of lots of reasons you might feel this wont work. Also, the fact we cant estimate results does frighten me. But, think about this. If we can allow our thick massive layers to be penetrated to put electical boxes through, and that these "puddy paks" seem to be enough to seal whole and not destroy isolation, than why cant my whole ,which will be sealed and is smaller, not work. Except the fact that there is a flanking path, but can the rubber be done right to handle this? I know this is probably far fetched, but if I absolutley need these lower rafter ties, it might be my only solution, other than 8' flat ceilings. If the garage is OK with these raised collar ties, like it is, or it OK but I should add more of them, then I think the way we decided is probably the best solution. It is easier and the little bit of space gained, doesnt seem worth it.

I'm reminded of an old church hymn - "Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho" - if you continue to try and weaken your structure for some almost imaginary acoustic improvement, it won't take a trumpet to finish that hymn (the last line of the chorus is "and the walls came tumblin' down"...)

Steve, I really appreciate your help, and I respect your opinion, but before I totally give up, I'd love to have no confusion and not feel that the answer is right there, but out of our reach. Much like the story of Jerico, much of this boils down to perspective and interpretation. Many scientists and theolgens now think the wall of jerico were so strong and the invaders so persistant and patient, the citizens were destroyed by lack of food and diseases created by being trapped within thier inpenetrable fortress. They caused their own death by building TOO good. If I build this and die inside because my ceiling sounds soo good I forget to ever come out even to eat, please dont cry for me cause I died happy. And if you remember your first post to me ever, you commented on my drawing with the lack of a door. Well I fixed that one long ago, and I can get out whenever I want(or my wife wants me too). Thanx and goodbye mike "suicide throgh architecture" klooster

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Heres a general diagram of my idea in my last post.

Hey Mike, I know you're looking for Steve's advice on this question... But my two cents is, even if you can do this safely, it does seem to complicate your construction quite a bit. It appears to open yourself up to more chances of construction errors that could be very detrimental to your isolation goals. I'm also not yet convinced that there's a substantial payoff, even if done perfectly.

agreed keith, unless these lower rafter ties(bottom 1/3 of rafter) are necessary for the garage as is. On the other hand, if the collar ties are ok for the garage as it stands now (raised about 1/2 way, spaced 4') then I beleive flattening the ceiling jusr under garage collar ties with new collar ties in live room is better. But, it is a shame when I can build live room to not need horizontal members. But I can be done with it. Also, Ive been plotting a modification to my tie rod aproach, which will be easier, less experimental and doesnt employ the pierved tie rod flanking path. Basically the idea is to build live room to be rafter beam style so it does not need rafter ties. This is where it splits possibilities, but I like ...adding rafter ties to live room, in hopes to make it even stronger. Then by using a sway brace attached near or on the top plate of garage walls. In essence using super strong live room for a rafter tie. The rafter tie/ live room will only have to provide the tension of the missing rafter ties, yet with the sway braces, eliminate the penetration/flanking path and still keeps outer walls decoupled from inner walls. Its like reversing the intent of the sway brace. Youve got to admit, although these ideas may seem strange, risky, or whatever, Im getting closer to this, and I have provided a plenty of alternative solutions. If I dont get it my way. I wont cry, but I know there is a way to do this. Its driving me crazy. I have not yet mentioned something else i saw a while back that really intrigued me. Inner exposed trusses. i saw this house opn the net that had a room with trusses exposed all over the walls and the boxes and triangles created were filled about half way with dry wall. You can support a room from the inside and the spaces formed can help prop absorbent later. See theres always a way.

Its driving me crazy Mike, you've already helped me get PAST that; I'd have to back up several steps :? Can you do a sketch or two of what you mean, or should I just come down there and flog you with a collar tie til you give up and just build the damn thing??!? :lol: