Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

yes, and it feels really good to hear you say that steve. Any suggestions to periculars? Also, keeping in mind I dont know much about these steel straps and out of 5 original collar ties we would be replacing 3, is the garage roof still capable of handling one layer of 5/8" drywall for a beef up? As far as I can tell its OK, but Id love to feel more secure than that. (2x6 rafters spaced 24" with a span of about 11 to 12'.)

I was wondering something. I've been really interested in keiths method on ventilation, and for the most part I think thats my route. HRV and a mini-split(two zone). I have seen a HRV/Airhandler combo, but thos huge ducts seem very complicated to deal with and a minisplit would be a clean setup. Those are just options, but what Id like advice on is..The placement of the HRV would be convenient if I could locate it in the attic loft area above the control room side. The "attic" and the CR are totally decoupled frames and a foot of airspace between the CR roof and the atiic floor in this area. I dont really understand the numbers in the HRV tech reports for the helios, but Im thinking its probably a bit louder than a CPU fan, but with more vibration. Would I regret putting this unit so close toi the CR. I have tons of 1/4" 60 duro vynil I didnt use to float it. Actually I think it hangs right. As far as organizatoion, asthetics, and storage, this area would rule. But Id hate to regret it later and have a vibration or hum.

I would think that would be fine, Mike. The HRV hangs from chains from above. If vibration becomes an issue, then you can probably get some resilient hangers or even home-grow something to absorb. Heck -- hanging the unit from chains but "breaking its fall" with a stack of Roxul/Thermafiber would probably do the trick. Be sure you can access the unit, as there is an electrostatic filter than will need to be cleaned now and then. --Keith :mrgreen:

ya Ive got an idea Im workin on. Its kinda conceptual and Id like to believe in it more confidently, so I can think of other stuff around it. Ill explain after dinner I swear. My next question is.. If I have a closet like compartment for it, how big should it be? Or what would be too small might be better. Im not so concerned with the fitting of the unit, but any subsequent space needed around it for like splitters or something? I know Im being vague, but Im hungry and mostly Id like to get a general idea so I'll know if I'm wasting time on this idea....

I really don't think it's a waste, Mikey. Note that in my case, I'm putting my fan unit outside of my room and into the laundry room, with two pairs of silencers "in the way." One of these days you'll have to see my place so you can get a better feel for it. Hey everyone -- catch Mike playing keys this week on Last Call with Carson Daly on NBC! 8) (He's too modest and preoccupied to tell you, so it's up to me!) --Keith :mrgreen:

thanx keith, but i think you misunderstood th "waste" of time I was speaking of. I meant I didnt want to assume the closet space for the HRV could be a certain size and then continue to design other stuff around it. I was beginning to post last night, when I found some new stuff that intrigues my HVAC-retarded mind. I found these sanyo mini split units last night and some of the models have fresh air intakes on the indoor unit... http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/HVAC/ge ... wFileID=27 If you notice the table mentions the fresh air capabilities, and if click in to see the specific models, there will be more info. Not much Im afraid.But some. Am I totally off base, but while weve been studing and designing, the AC people have been solving this mini split dilema as well. It makes me wonder if the fresh air needs can be handled without a HRV. This leads me to think of a couple of new scenerios. 1) Keiths way---HRV and a dual zone mini split. 2)Two individual mini splits with fresh air intake working totally independently....Even though I would have 2 holes in my outer leaf(same as keith, and not counting refridge lines) there would be less holes overall. (my adaptation of keiths way would have 2 holes(return and send) in every room and this way would be only one hole per room. And the fresh air intakes would be independant instead of split of the same return run.) *is it more efficient to run 2 seperate mini splits with seperate outdoor units, or sharing the outdoor unit like in a dual zone?(sanyo dual zones have no fresh air intake)Or is it roughly the same? 3)there a 3 sanyo units that have fresh air intake options. http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/HVAC/do ... pdf/08.pdf a:Cieling recessed-dont want to cut a hole in ceiling though b:ceiling flush mount c:concealed duct mini split(really quiet, and better circulation with 4 small ducts) 4)theres also a hrv/airhandler available. http://www.nu-airventilation.com/enerboss.html#enerboss What I dont know is if th ac duct off that unit is full sized regular duct. I really would like to avoid the big duct thing(unless thats just stupid and more expensive) and regular split systems are much cheaper, but a specialty airhandler like this probably wouldnt be. 5)typical split ducted system with a normal fresh air intake tied into ducting(way cheaper, but big ass ducts) The concealed duct unit intrigues me. I keep wondering, if the orund duct hoses can be directed to seperate rooms, I could use the unit as a complete garge air handler. I would also need to be able to split up its return to the 3 rooms. Then I could use its fresh air intake and have only 1 hole in my outer layer. They never tell you what you can do with ducting after connecting to their unit(unless they sell a product for that particular use). But this would be cool, if it worked. The main things I have to asses is the limitations of duct design for the concealed unit, and if these fresh air inputs deliver enough air to not have further ventilation. Then I can decide a method and I can no how big a space I need to house the unit(s).I would at least like to eliminate any dead roads so I have a ballpark idea of what im doing. I hope this isnt another confusing ramble post, but if it is, just be happy you dont have to think like me.. thnx mike PS thanx for the props keith, but I'd like to share my new "distraction" with everyone as well. Im going to be a father! ...........Now, imagine me sitting in front of my computer, reading thechnical data on HVAC with a confused look on my face (worthy of the amount of confusion in my posts). Then you freeze that image, delete the computer, and replace it with a naked. screaming baby waiting for his new clean diaper. ......Scary,huh?Now add the computer back in to the left, and on the screen is the "stupid dads diaper forum" on the screen.....Good luck kid.

Mike, you're making me nervous again; you've already moved your collar ties toward the roof peak, which weakens the rafters halfway between where the collar tie fastens and your outer wall; then, you want to replace them with straps, which will ONLY work for TENSION; unfortunately, it's likely that putting extra weight on the roof at that point halfway between collar tie and eave, will cause the collar ties to go into COMPRESSION; this means that a STRAP WON'T DO SQUAT. Finally, after weakening the roof framing you want to add as much weight as is already there (doubling the weight effectively) - The only way you' d get away with beefing up between rafters is if you AT LEAST add the MISSING collar ties, fastening them for both compression and tension (some nails toe-nailed one way, some the opposite) - better if you ALSO use liquid nails and clamp the ties while you're nailing. Once you have your ORIGINAL roof framing beefed by that minimal amount, you should be able to add ONE, and ONLY ONE, layer of sheet rock between rafters (same method as walls) - THEN, you can DUPLICATE your original roof frame halfway BETWEEN the old rafters, only using 2x8's - that frame's collar ties should be as far DOWN as you can stand it, the closer to rafter centers they attach the better. Collar tie each of the NEW rafters, maybe even add a 2x4 from under the (new)ridge board (don't short out between inner and outer ceiling) so your new rafters are kind of a half-ass truss. Do this with EVERY rafter. As you go, you'll need some sort of diagonal bracing across the rafters til you get the wallboard up; you can remove it as you add wallboard. What's a HRV? No time to look back... Steve

Mike, you're making me nervous again;

you know were starting to sound like obi wan and anikin skywalker, steve dont worry, these are just questions. My contracor didnt like the thought of adding weight with that idea, either. The only reason I said it looks good is because the span calculator said it looks good, but thats if I know how to read it right.

you've already moved your collar ties toward the roof peak, which weakens the rafters halfway between where the collar tie fastens and your outer wall;

ok makes sense

then, you want to replace them with straps, which will ONLY work for TENSION;

allright. Id never hold you to a maybe, and since you said this will maybe work...Are you saying you think it might work without beef up, It defenitely wont work with beef up? That would make sense, too.

unfortunately, it's likely that putting extra weight on the roof at that point halfway between collar tie and eave, will cause the collar ties to go into COMPRESSION; this means that a STRAP WON'T DO SQUAT.

So as far as raising collar ties goes, is halfway the limit? Again I could see where that would make sense too.

Finally, after weakening the roof framing you want to add as much weight as is already there (doubling the weight effectively) -

Now steve, I can take my lickin's like a man, but it seems like you said with the straps, and being raised and all, adding weight would cause compression, not without the weight. And then Finally I add weight to it all. Now Im figuring I read that wierd, and you mean, Straps/no beef up=maybe, verdicts out.Straps/w beef up not safe. Ya or na? Let me try asking a better question. Say I want these straps, how close am I to hangin 4 on the new ceiling instead? What would it take? Now Ive been going back'n'forth with this. Alot of this stuff I read is jumbled around. I seem to remeber you saying when we talked, each layer is roughly 5 db isolation. In all practcality, how crucial is that 5 db on the roof. Ive got 3 layers, a foot to two feet of space 1/2" board and two layers of roofing. Does the ceiling transmit that much? Is 4 layers on one and 1 on the other soo bad?(sounded bad as I wrote it) I really want high ceilings, and I do want isolation, but Im willing to balance those a bit to find a happy medium. It must be annoying to see someone so attached to a ceiling height he'll risk his life (at least in my virtual studio, and this forum). Id really love to not beef up, but I dont want to regret something I just didnt do since Ill probably have regrets on stuff I really tried on. Out here in Cali people are pretty liberal, can I "tofu" up instead? Your method makes sense as for beefing. The only question I have is the new collar ties as low as I can handle. You mean try to get it half way, dontchya? Some side notes... 1)Im sure you know this, but you do see alot of strings, yo do know the width of the room at the ridge beam is likw 11' and will be supported by wall on either side. The west side gets a bit longer at like 15'-16'. Its not the whole studio 2)Is there any chance lowering the collar ties over the CR and ISO now that Ive settled on 8.5' ceilings, will help this other side at all? 3)Is there any ideas, using the straps, or metal pipe or L beams or even steel studs of making a more elaborite support, Like the "half ass truss you suggested" that would work? 4)I know this sounds crazy, but remeber overkill isolation is more a precaution for down the road new neighbors, we rock on my block all the time now. I asked my contractor, when he was lecturing weight stuff, what would it cost to rip off the roofing tiles and beefing up there? Hes worried about weight, but doesnt really back the beef up because its foreign to him. So my point was, if I skip the beef and regret it it would suck, so if I skip n regret, how bad IS it to change it later. His quick ballpark figure was like $3-4. I know thats alot compared to beefing now, but since I know Im ok now, in acouple of years its really not too bad. And, if Im regreting the unvented ceiling thing, I could possibly kill 2 birds with one stone. Just something to think about...Im not tearing roof off yet.

knightfly wrote:

What's a HRV? No time to look back...

HRV = Heat Recovery Ventilator, such as the Fantech VHR 1404.

mikeklooster wrote:

. . . In all practcality, how crucial is that 5 db on the roof. . .

The acoustics engineer I spoke to is also an expert witness in court cases involving noise issues. He told me it's rare for him ever to lose a case, but the last one he lost was one that involved a drummer who built a room but skimped on the ceiling. The ceiling was the weak link and the noise was coming out of the attic vents. So, in short, I think those walls over your head (a.k.a., the ceiling/roof) are crucial. :roll:

3)there a 3 sanyo units that have fresh air intake options. http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/HVAC/do ... pdf/08.pdf

Very interesting indeed! However (here comes the buzz-kill)... The smallest of the three units offering fresh air intake is 24,000 BTU (i.e., two ton). That's pretty big (the unit I'm going to use for my room will be 8,500 BTU, the smallest available, and even that is oversized -- hopefully the three fan speeds on mine will prevent it from "short cycling" and adversely affecting its ability to dehumidify the air -- mold sucks! Plus, none of the fresh air units are dual zone or tri zone. Finally, you may be pumping fresh air into the room, but without an exhaust fan in your air-tight room, I can't imagine much fresh air would actually get into the room once positive pressure takes hold. :roll: For this reason, I think the Fantech HRV remains the winner. :lol: I love your sense of humor, Mikey! :lol: Too much funny crap for me to quote -- you know where it is! --Keith :mrgreen:

well keith im pretty proud of myself, not only did I think of most of your comments, but Ive even got some rebuttles. Im not sold on the idea yet,but Im nit sure oyuve killed it yet..

The acoustics engineer I spoke to is also an expert witness in court cases involving noise issues. He told me it's rare for him ever to lose a case, but the last one he lost was one that involved a drummer who built a room but skimped on the ceiling. The ceiling was the weak link and the noise was coming out of the attic vents. So, in short, I think those walls over your head (a.k.a., the ceiling/roof) are crucial.

But I dont have attic vents, keith. Im goin unvented. Now I know that doesnt make me suddenly right, but you have to admit, a lack of mass isnt hte same as holes in the wall. As well, if this guy went room in a room, which i doubt, did he go 12" gap. 3 layers of drywall? i mean everythings textbook isolation in my plan exept for a layer of 5/8" drywall. tough one eh? As for HVAC. read all of my ideas. the one with the concealed duct unit where I take the round flanges and direct them to sperate rooms seems great. Its also the shakiest, but im supposed to talk to sanyo tech support tomorrow. It hinges on the fact that 1)its OK to run those ducts to seperate room 2) the return can be split to have 3 returns. See, its like taking a mini split and using it for a airhandler. than a 12,000 to 18,000 would be ok. As for over power, these and im sure many units, have lots of programability. I was thinking of programming intervals of off and on so its not chasing the thermostat. Ill watch temps closely and try to fine tune programming and learn to compensate for season. Add a little remote action and keep them on low. One drawback to the concealed duct is independant control. depending on prices maybe 2 seperate minis are better. seperate progeamming, but a little harder cause now it is overpwered. Oh wait thats the one that wont work cause of no returns. ya your probably right. tha chances of me being able to manipulate the concealed im not counting on, so yours is better. Now theres still 2 ideas. The HVR/airhandler combo. I dont really want the duct, though. And a standard setup with a freash air intake in the duct. They have fans if you need it, and its WAY cheaper. Its pretty much the same as HVR without the cool air coolong feature, and I still dont want duct. Im really feelin your idea, but i was checking to see if I didnt need a 2 units, then I found alternatives, so I had to investigate. The other advantage to the HVR is that I can wait on the mini split till summer. *what do you know of the elctric heater option on th HVR? I dont think I need much so that might do it * do you forsee any problems with splitting supply and return runs?

mikeklooster wrote:

. . . a lack of mass isnt hte same as holes in the wall. . .

That's true. But you can't underestimate the power of mass, my friend! Of course, we mustn't underestimate the power of gravity either... :roll:

As well, if this guy went room in a room, which i doubt, did he go 12" gap. 3 layers of drywall?

I don't recall the specifics, but my impression from the engineer guy is that the room was done very well except the ceiling.

*what do you know of the elctric heater option on th HVR? I dont think I need much so that might do it

I know nothing about it, mostly because I don't care. ;-) I'm planning to use a space heater, rarely, if ever necessary, to take the chill off of my room. Because the room will be so well insulated, and we humans generate heat/stuffiness when we're in an enclosed/sealed space, not to mention amps/cabs and lights, I figure that heating requirements in our part of the world are next to nothing.

* do you forsee any problems with splitting supply and return runs?

No, they're made for it... Although you'll probably need to reduce down to 4" ducts for the split lines. You'll learn more about this and other things in the [url= http://www.fantech.net/shr_vhr_inst.pdf]installation instructions[/url]. --Keith :mrgreen:

Hopefully I can make a suggestion here that won't be to far off base. If I personally had the space you have and the number of rooms I would go with a heat pump package unit (side discharge ) . That way everything would be taken care of on the outside (fresh air,cooling and heat and condensate drain,filtering,maintenance ). Then all you would have to worry about is ducting and noise of the ducts on the inside and a thermostat. Anyway you look at it you have to move the air and change the air. Just my 2 cents. Jon

Great feedback, wakiyan -- I don't think it's off base at all. :-) Great example of how my project and Mike's are similar in some ways, yet very different in others. One size doesn't fit most! ;-) It's also nice to see others are plugged into this thread. Hopefully others won't be shy if they have ideas as well. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

thanx wakiyan, Thats what I had planned to do origonally, but theres some drawbacks, or at least I think there are. 1)The area best situated for duct stuff is in the front. Its not the end of the world, but locating the unit along the side in front would be loud and cumbersome. The front of the studio is a patio cover, in which wed like to have a kinda outdoor living room/patio. However, I tried to learn a solid aproach to having some length of outdoor ducting, but I never really found solid info. 2)I was under the assumption that it might be detremental to the isolation to have 2 big holes in my wall. Id love some feedback there, too. The more I thought about it this morning the more I liked keiths idea the best(I just red this one now, so well see). Ive replanned my entry iso room where Id like to have it a vaulted ceiling, and a little past halfway at the other side above the CR front corner, which would minimize the "attic" space to more of a closet type area big enough to house an HRV. And a 2 zone mini split with zones in Live room and Control room. Other than when needing isolation(which is quite abit for what i do) Ill leave doors open btween rooms to cool iso. I know its a bit more expensive route to take. Separate venting mean smaller duct holes and the ability to move air whether AC is needed or not. Especially with an unvented ceiling. Individual control of AC units. No large holes in walls. More space in ISO, which is very cool looking,creates irregular angles, and gives me an open accessible storage nook large enough to put a couple of kik drums aside. Also, since the closet would only need access for servicing. I could easily clear storage to provide access, and build a massive access panel, that can be very sealed even if it is a bit cumbersome to open.(much better than a thin door or something. The package is intising, but even if the weak link of holes in the wall doesnt get me, the loss of space by making the attic all the way across for duct space would kinda suck. Id love to hear ideas, though. Ive understood mini splits to be quite quiet. But can someone tell me, generally, is a mini split quieter than a decently designed duct system?

Sharward I've been intrigued with this forum since first reading of the HVAC dilemma of studio designs. Conditioning the space and supplying enough fresh air (which I believe you need more than the norm due to the air tight designs which could lead to a sick building.)and then trying to contain the sound level after popping these holes in your sound dampened walls, ceiling or floor. Lots of variables to consider. Problem solving 101,very cool. I have some HVAC experience and a interest in studio/recording and I'm intrigued at the opposing factors and trying to figure out solutions. Luckily the opposing factors aren't mine at this time. Jon

mikeklooster wrote:

is a mini split quieter than a decently designed duct system?

The low fan speed of the mini splits (the baby ones from Mitsubishi) generate 26db(A) of noise. That's pretty darned quiet. I don't know how that compares to a duct system. But figure the location of your mics will be a factor -- I doubt your mics would be terribly close to the interior unit of the mini splits... They're typically up high, maybe 7 feet in the air.

Ive understood mini splits to be quite quiet. But can someone tell me, generally, is a mini split quieter than a decently designed duct system?

I really don't know. I assume by mini split you mean a ductless mini split. My guess is you would have more control over the ductwork since you have no fan in your room or rooms.(is it possible that you could find a showroom where you could test the mini split your thinking of and see how quiet it is?) You can always build or buy sound traps/attenuators for your ductwork or cover your registers and grills with sound traps/attenuators. Which would add to your pressure drop but with package unit you could bump up the fan speed. Once your mini split is installed and let's say it is to loud you could build some sort of sound trap/attenuator around it . I would have to assume for recording purposes the ductwork if built correctly would be quieter .Apples or oranges I guess. But you still need holes for your fresh air so you have to deal with holes regardless. You also have to deal with an outside unit regardless.

I tried to learn a solid approach to having some length of outdoor ducting, but I never really found solid info.

You just need lots of sealer and of course penetrations to worry about. Well my one typing finger is pretty tired, tried using my other one but I think It's dyslexic Jon

well, Im hearing what you sayin jon. SInce I can turn off a mini split while tracking, but still have my CR on I agree its apples and oranges. As for the outdoor unit..Since its only the refridgerant lines and such are penetrating the wall for the mini, Theres a whole lot of distance leeway for the outdoor unit. Something like 160 feet. That way I can put it behind the garage. Out of sight and out of earshot. Minis still winning to me, but I guess the ultimate decider would be the attic space issue. (If you havent known my string long, you should no I get pretty attached to a room idea when I like it. Then I give a full frontal assault of half cocked theoretical ideas till I get or dont get what I want. Its pretty annoying even for me, but i cant help it.) Its probably possible to keep the attic this way, but im sure it would be tough. And Im wondering how much cheaper it would be to buy/build so many diffusers. Im not really at home with a hammer, except of course getting hammered i suppose. So Im still mini split at the moment. But Im always open....thanx much

Mike That's cool . I'm sure the mini split will be sweet , and you'll have lots of hours of fun in your new studio. Jon

thanx jon, and thanx for all your help and ideas. I hope to have fun in that studio someday too. When is another question indeed.

mike there's one thing you said that really scares me :shock: the part where you said "i'm going to be a father." no just kidding man, congratulations!! :lol: dan

you dont have sugar coat it dan. You should be scared. Everyone living in a 300 mile radius should be scared. Im a good person, but I was a bad boy, and I know Ive got some kid karma comin. Maybe they should beef up fire codes in california or something. Thanx for the congrats Dan. Ill tell you one thing, it sure was easier makin a baby than building this stupid studio. Do you think it will stay that way? Oh and I guess I should start designing this now. So does anyone no the average sound levels of a crying kid. Ive got anither ISO booth to build. And I will beef this ceiling up for sure.

mikeklooster wrote:

So does anyone no the average sound levels of a crying kid.

Plan for peaks around 140 dB. Contstant wail around 110 dB. However the resonant peak is whatever is most shrill and annoying to your particular ear. :lol: I've got two lil' squirts... it's a good thing. A loud thing. But a good thing. [/b]

finally a iso situation that doesnt call for massive construction. Im not gonna need double walls for the kids room since its all high end. Seriously though, do you think a mic in the room with speakers out of phase will work too. Like in new cars and airplanes?

OK...Ill really try to make this my last idea-stretcher post. Ive been thinking of what steve said in his last post.

Mike, you're making me nervous again; you've already moved your collar ties toward the roof peak, which weakens the rafters halfway between where the collar tie fastens and your outer wall; then, you want to replace them with straps, which will ONLY work for TENSION; unfortunately, it's likely that putting extra weight on the roof at that point halfway between collar tie and eave, will cause the collar ties to go into COMPRESSION; this means that a STRAP WON'T DO SQUAT. Finally, after weakening the roof framing you want to add as much weight as is already there (doubling the weight effectively) -

I understand that. I understood the tenion part, but now I get the compression as well. I had a series of ideas today. I dont know all the effects of things, so some ideas might be crazy, impossible, inneffective, and such. But Im also hoping an idea might trigger a similar idea that is feasable. So please take these with a grain of salt... 1)would putting steel straps on both sides of the rafter have any effect on compression? a)that design with straps connected by lets say welding 1.5" steel inbetween them? b)adding a verticle steel peice to connect with ridge beam.(if the 2 strap method is used, you could potentialy connect the peice in the middle of the straps working a little like a truss? 2)in a conversation between me and my contractor, he mentioned the possibilty of using tubing instead of straps. I think he said tubing is stronger than straps. Is this better? I dont remember all the details he said, unfortunatly, but I have a couple of versions in my head now.. a)Attach to rafter center, not the side, like a truss?add verticle to ridge beam? b)Ill just mention this, cause its vague to me now..I think he mentioned adding diaganal supports as well. Making an X. sorry i forgot where that might attach. 3)This is an older idea I had, that seems like it could be configured many ways. Heres what I see....Steel L beams. Is that their name? I see them alot like in bedframes. a) similar combinations like I have mentioned in 1 &2? b)What if I used L beams as a beef up backer and a rafter sister(both sides if neccessary) then attach collar tie to that with L beam? c)by doubling L beam collar tie, on top of the first to form a "[" shape, or overlapped. Again you can apply alll the other combos, or any you got. 4)Any of these options added to whole garage, in conjunction with collar ties still there(over CR and ISO. Every rafter in Live room(or garage) 5) with or without 1-5, what would adding lower collar ties to every rafter above CR and ISO, in conjuction with the one already there. I think thats all i can remeber right now. Will and how much will any of these ideas work, or do they inspire any better, more proper ideas? Thanx again folks, you rock!