Studio Design for a 28' by 22' garage

Ya, build it steve, Ill supply the pizza and beer! LOL

Mike, you've already helped me get PAST that; I'd have to back up several steps

Im not sure what your referring to there steve but Ill be honest, if the garage will stand OK as is. (With the raised collar ties with the 4' spacing, or even that with a slight adjustment, like added supports over control/iso booth side.) Then I would stay with our plan now.(Addidng collar ties with 2' spacing 1-2" lower than garage collar ties to the live room ceiling and flatten roof line). But if these walls have to have horizontal ties in the bottom 1/3 of the rafter, then Im guessing this other idea is a good start. The problem is, my new "rod idea", which I'm positive would work for structure reasons, is so experimental with these rods passing through my inner leaf, that its scary to risk all the effort of the 3 layers and seperate wall frames. Im really ready to throw up a white flag now. But I'd love to feel right about this. Heres some pics of my idea. thanx steve, ill see ya when you get here.

OK, here's my final offer - :evil: First, I'm not at ALL comfortable with what you've already done to your garage; while it's not fallen down YET, that doesn't mean it's not likely to do so; sometimes materials will miraculously hold for quite some time and then, when you least expect it, BURY YOU. While your rod idea would be structurally sound, it will also be a VERY good way to lose any isolation you might have gained with your double walls; think of these rods as very thick guitar strings, with multiple possible resonant nodes; because that's exactly what they are. If you damp them where they pass thru walls, it's no different than touching a guitar string with your finger and plucking it somewhere else; all you do is change the frequency/number of nodes of the vibration (sound) Bad Idea. Back to DEATH, and ways to avoid it - Add identical "collar" ties to your other existing rafters, same height as existing, so that ALL rafters have these. You had an acceptable (but marginal by today's codes) roof frame BEFORE you changed it - you have a LESS than marginal frame AS IT IS NOW. The MINIMUM you should do is to add the missing ties on every second rafter. I personally would STILL SISTER those rafters with 2x8's. Every single one. That is what I would do. The only OTHER thing I would do, if MORE money/time were available, is START OVER - either with a new roof, or with an entirely new building. This is because I don't believe in risking others' lives by experimenting. Period. Then, inside the newly sistered and FULLY collar tied roof, you can build your new live room vaulted frame as you described, and hang your rock/insulation. - Or, you can continue to attempt to re-invent physics till the cows come home, and STILL not have a studio :cry: Regardless of whatever frustrated tones I probably used in all the above, here is my stated philosophy - I am a greedy bastard; I want it all, I want it all RIGHT, and I want it all RIGHT NOW - I also want to live to enjoy it... I won't recommend any LESS to anyone here, especially not when the "live to enjoy it" part is threatened - so please don't ask me to... Steve

...I renew my "how about starting with a brand new building out back" idea... :roll:

where's the tie rod for the internal structure??

Thanx again for all the input. I understand your reservations on committing to my untested, untried ideas. And I also understand that the work it would take to accuratly "polish" my raw ideas is beyond the scope of an internet forum. I coudn't possbly expect people to confidently back experimental construction plans for a guy they dont know and a garage they've never seen. And that would get scary if you did. The conclusion I've come to is a) my rafter tie rod idea will work for the garage strength issue. I thinks its better than the raised collar tie for the garage. Its bringing the low support on 4' centers the garage had originally(before collar ties were aised at all). b)My rafter tie rod idea, where it must go through the live room, is too experimental to estimate the damage it will do to the isolation. Thats too risky to be worth trying So, I'm done with this battle, but there were some things Steve said that I think might be inconsistant, and I hate leaving such a hard fight so uneasy.

While your rod idea would be structurally sound, it will also be a VERY good way to lose any isolation you might have gained with your double walls; think of these rods as very thick guitar strings, with multiple possible resonant nodes; because that's exactly what they are. If you damp them where they pass thru walls, it's no different than touching a guitar string with your finger and plucking it somewhere else; all you do is change the frequency/number of nodes of the vibration (sound)

Im not saying your wrong about this, or even if you are wrong, Im not saying its a good idea, but...It seems to me there is a difference between putting your hand across a guitar neck and muffling the strings, and pushing on the string against the fret board with enough pressure to create a new endpoint of the string, hense creating a new fundamental frequency. Do you know what I mean, here?

Add identical "collar" ties to your other existing rafters, same height as existing, so that ALL rafters have these. You had an acceptable (but marginal by today's codes) roof frame BEFORE you changed it - you have a LESS than marginal frame AS IT IS NOW. The MINIMUM you should do is to add the missing ties on every second rafter. I personally would STILL SISTER those rafters with 2x8's. Every single one. That is what I would do. The only OTHER thing I would do, if MORE money/time were available, is START OVER - either with a new roof, or with an entirely new building. This is because I don't believe in risking others' lives by experimenting. Period. Then, inside the newly sistered and FULLY collar tied roof, you can build your new live room vaulted frame as you described, and hang your rock/insulation. -

The other inconsistency here that troubles me is that your recomendation to sister all ther rafters with 2x8 and add collar ties to all rafters is the same perscription as you gave me when I was looking into hanging the 3 layers of drywall off of the garage rafters with iso clips and hat channel AND possibly beefing up roof with 1 layer of drywall. And we even spoke of how that we could hold 4 layers, but we decided to play it safe at 3. Now, your saying I should do this to just hold the roof up at all, as is with no 3-4 layers and a layer for beef up. Would I have died then? The only real reason I'm harping on this at all is because with the plan as is, I can't do exactly what you said because there is 2 rafters in the middle that the live room/control room wall intersects the space where the collar tie woud go. So I can do what you said, except, I'd have to have a 6' gap in the middle of the garage, without collar ties. I could still sister those with 2x8's, just the collat ties get in the way here. Is this possible? I cant help but think that adding low collar ties in the front part of this garage(first 3 rafters),instead of mstching raised, would be good for the garage in general. The ceilings here are 8.5 feet so lower ties are totally possible. Now if this is good, then I'd have to ask if it would compensate for the 6' gap in the middle. Maybe add purlins in gap area(i think its a purlin, a horizontal brace connecting rafters.)If this was OK, then I could do this, and I'd love it. Actually, noticing this gap is what led me to that last spurt of kamikazee architecture, Maybe I asked the wrong question? Is it possible? So, basically I learned there's an issue every way I turn.

Mike, sorry for the long delay; IIRC, you told me you had moved the collar ties up AFTER we talked about what needed to be done for adequate strength; I seem to remember thinking that the building was pretty wimpy to begin with, but figured it had already stood the test of time. Come to find out, it HASN'T done so if those ties were once at the top of the wall. Do me a basic sketch, showing JUST ONE SET of rafters and ties, with the layers you already have on the roof, and show the ties where they are now; include measurements on all components, including spacing between rafters, lengths, and actual height difference from peak to eave, and I'll run any and all calculations I can think of to see how safe it is. Then I'll re-post my recommendations based on that information. After that, if you're STILL not satisfied or willing to follow my advice, you'll need to hire a local engineer and go from there so I can regain at least 5% of the 10% sanity level I USED to enjoy... :?

OK Steve, lets do this, for the last time... Now, remember I am totally OK with flattening the ceiling line at the height of the raised collar tie in the live room, and am totally willing to put it together like we discussed on the phone or even like your last post if necessary, but I would have to deal with the missing collar tie in the middle making a 6' gap between collar ties. What I'd like to be OK... keep collar ties as is with 1 missing in middle: Add low rafter ties to every rafter that is above a "normal" roof, this is 4 rafters from front end. Leave 6' gap add matching raised collar ties on every rafter in live room, after 6' gap. Add collar ties to every 2"x8" rafter of the new inner frame of live room identical to raised colar tie, but approx, 1-2" lower. These collar ties will hold the 3 layer ceiling, and live room will be completely decoupled yet have a vaulted ceiling with a flattened top just like raised collar tie of garage implies.

you told me you had moved the collar ties up AFTER we talked about what needed to be done for adequate strength

actually the collar ties were moved before I ever even posted here. My first few posts are about general 2d room layout, but there are pictures of ties as early as jan 28, 2005. posted. Our first phone conversation was much later and the topic of "sistering" rafters was in respect to beefing up garage roof with 1 layer of 5/8" drywall inbetween 2x6 rafters, and in the live room handing 3 layers on Iso clips and hat channel with the flat top vaulted ceiling created by the raised collar ties. And that was the plan you last recommended for me to not beefup, and not hang 3 layers off of anymore. Just left alone, but with raised collar ties, and Im adding the 1 missing in the middle. Note:Although you did have knowledge of the raised collar tie from the early replies, I am not suggeting you told me to raise collar ties. those were done prior to any posting whatso ever. Now seperatly we should consider the live room. Ive added the pic, youll need, and the combination of the 2 frames last. Keep in mind this is a 2x6 frame with 2x8 rafters at 2' spacing and is supporting ridge baord to make a 2x8 ridge beam,(i know this is thin for a beam) but the frame is altogether robust in design and the ridge beam span is 12' between walls. If there is any questions lets clear them and get a accurate final calculate and I agree after that is an engineers job. thank you

Mike, you probably want to do some trimming and shifting in order to get those images down to 700 pixels wide. You're pushing 900 right now.

there I adjusted pictures, sorry for the delay, I was out of town. Anything else you need Steve?

OK, finally stole enough time to go thru this thread from the start; also re-did calculations for your existing rafters, and must have used "ceiling joist" instead on the first go-around. According to the span calc, 2x6 #2 douglas fir will span 11'11" as a rafter, when placed on 24" centers and loaded 20 live/10# dead load. Bottom line is, no sistering needed with what is ALREADY on the roof (2 layers of 3-tab/felt, plus 5/8 CDX ply) - IOW, you're good to go on the outer roof if you don't add ANYTHING to it. Your inner, vaulted design seemed to be OK as is. For inner walls, with vertical frames you don't need 2x6 - 2x4 is fine for 3 layers. Bed your frame's sole plates with either 2 layers of 30# building felt, or Sill Seal for a thermal break, and I would use Pressure Treated for the sole plates - normal 2x4's for the studs and caps. For insulation inside walls and ceiling, use plain fiberglass with NO BACKING - no paper, no foil, NADA. For your inner stud frames, get some fiberglass strapping and run it at least every 24" horizontally across the NON-wallboard edges of your studs, then insulate and drywall. This will leave an air gap between frames, but still keep the insulation against the wallboard for damping. Better for breathability of walls. If code demands a fire stop between frames, use rockwool ONLY where the firestop is needed (at the top of the wall) - this will allow you to maintain physical separation of frames (no HARD contact) and still pass code (hopefully this is also true in over-legislated calif.) Continue your outer leaf at the eaves by filling in between rafters with those beveled 2x6's we talked about, caulk well, and you're set. I would get a decent humidity meter or two, you can safe a few $ buying two of these http://www.natlallergy.com/allergy_reli ... meter.html I just ordered two MORE, for a total of four; trying to control stuff more these days (allergies, mold, etc) - the two I already have both read exactly the same in the same conditions, which might not mean they're accurate but at least they tell the same lies :? - Reason I'm going on about the humidity is that you should keep yours below 40% year 'round, so even if your climate/construction isn't perfect the low humidity will keep things from staying too damp. You're probably OK in summer, but maybe not in winter. Those particular gauges also store min/max readings, so you can see just how high/low the humidity got since last time you checked. BTW, humidity isn't necessarily constant within a room; it's called RELATIVE humidity, because the percentage is RELATIVE to the TOTAL moisture the air can hold; at cooler temps, the air can hold LESS moisture so, for example, in winter the humidity near walls would be higher (cooler temp) than near the center of the room; so for best mold control, the sensor should be near an outside wall. Any acoustic instruments will also thank you for doing the humidity thing; pianos, guitars, fiddles, etc, all like 40-42% humidity. Hopefully I covered any remaining questions - if not, :cry:

Cool -- Mike's running out of reasons not to start building! Except, of course, the whole permit debate in his mind... ;-)

Thanx steve, your great as usual. So, if I get you right(garage only)... I do not need to sister rafters. My raised 2x10 collar ties spaced a 4' are OK. Which means, .... I do not need to add new raised collar ties to make it every one ,or spaced 2'. I do have some questions, just to be clear...(no new stuff, I promise) ***Now, are we ok with the missing collar tie in the middle?*** Should I add lower rafter ties in areas of garage where the ceiling heights permit, to be safe? So, if being "good to go" with my ceiling, I've got no more excuses. I'm going to review my info again and report my plans from ground up. I'll post later

Any extra support you can add that won't get in the way I would do - can you clarify the "missing collar tie in middle" thing - is this for inner frame or existing one? Now, since you raised the collar ties yourself and have a double roof in place, I would (in the interest of NOT having to wear a hard hat) go ahead and add the missing ties everywhere you can. These will be ONLY under tension, so 2x6 should be heavy enough. I'd use titebond glue, clamp them, and toenail in the direction that will cause the nails to pull TIGHTER under tension and not LOOSER. Let me know if you need a sketch to clarify that part... Steve

the missing collar tie is the middle collar tie. I am asking if its okay to be missing because the inner framing will get in the way right there. Heres a pic, notice no tie in the middle...its labeled as " 6' gap". On another note...his green glue = 1 layer stuff keiths talking about. Should I be looking to utilize this, like on the 3 layer ceiling, just to play her safe?

I think you'll be fine with ONE missing tie; you've not been killed so far with HALF of them missing :D - In your case where you may be slightly "under-isolated", yes I'd go for the GG approach; keep in mind that it costs about $15 per 4x8 sheet, so will raise your costs the same as adding two more layers of drywall; however, what it WON'T add is 2 more layers of WEIGHT. Or Labor. I've not had time to follow all of Brian's ramblings/massive tests, etc, but gather than he's saying the GG will do better than another layer of drywall, especially for LF isolation? Keith has been paying more attention to that subject than I've had time for, I'm sure he can link you to at least 4 places with pix, etc... Steve

Keith has been paying more attention to that subject than I've had time for, I'm sure he can link you to at least 4 places with pix, etc... Steve

Yeah Mike -- you'll want to follow my "Would Green Glue Save Lot of Work/Materials on My Ceiling?" thread and the "Definitive word on Green Glue?" thread over on StudioTips. Also, there's my post regarding my experience so far with Green Glue.

I think you'll be fine with ONE missing tie; you've not been killed so far with HALF of them missing -

You do mean because they are spaced at 4' on every other rafter, right?

your case where you may be slightly "under-isolated", yes I'd go for the GG approach

Is this recommended on my Live Room Ceiling, or on my garage ceiling? I know shewards using it on his outer leaf, but should I use this on mu inner leaf to use 2 insread of 3 layers of drywall or would I have to go 3 + GG? Keith thanx for the links, Ill look into it more...

Mike, do check out those threads, particularly on StudioTips.com. I got a "permission slip" to get away with two layers on outer leaf with Green Glue (Yay!) and also to possibly use less drywall on my inner leaf, also with Green Glue at less than 100% coverage. 8)

Mike, on the collar ties - put them on EVERY RAFTER YOU CAN. Only leave out the ONE tie you say you can't have there. DO ALL THE OTHER RAFTER PAIRS. Sorry, thought I'd been clear enough on that... Steve

In your case where you may be slightly "under-isolated", yes I'd go for the GG approach; keep in mind that it costs about $15 per 4x8 sheet, so will raise your costs the same as adding two more layers of drywall; however, what it WON'T add is 2 more layers of WEIGHT. Or Labor.

I'm being very general here, and I'd like to know what anyone thinks my approach of GG here should be. 1)Use GG in my 3 layer system to help fight my "slightly under isolated" plans. Resoulting in either DW/DW/GG/DW or DW/GG/DW/DW 2)Use GG to use 2 Layers of drywall on room ceilings, especially live room. Weve had alot of concerns of structure, and the weight loss could be a confidence booster at least. 3)Combine 1 and 2 by 2 layers DW and GG for ceilings. 3 layers and GG for walls... Id like to do just 2 and feel confident. Steve you mentioned you could give me a diagram or something to detail to nail method of the collar tie. I could use a simple picture if you have time. thanx mike

I would think you might be able to get away with the lightest option.

Is acoustic caulk indoor/outdoor or for areas that border the outdoor should I use a regular caulk? Im starting to seal my eaves and reading the label it doesnt say, but it kinda seems indoor only to me.

Can you post a pic of your eave, showing the roof overhang and the top couple of feet of wall? Need to see about three rafter ends total, preferably NOT quite a "head on" shot but at about 15 degree angle to the side... Steve

Sorry, missed the request -

here sompe pics, steve. these any good?