Floor Plan For A New Studio?

Started by Ognen on 1 August 2013. 38 replies. In the Library under Control room design.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 18473.

I think Stuart might be busy so many threads need to be reply but I think he'll correct me if I'm wrong Ognen: I believe you can divide roughly half but make control room a little bigger. In 3D engineer seat is about 2m away from rear wall. it's too close to be call as RFZ design coz it doesn't meet RFZ requirement but if you treat it right it can be workable (coz I believe many studios place seat 2m away from rear wall). if you want larger Live room with and sit further away from control room's rear wall then my first slide door plan might be better choice Acoustic axis issue can easily fix coz in the plan there's still space for speaker to move apart. Move them apart and acoustic axis will cross few inches behind engineer's head. like this
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I've checked ray tracing it's still OK. First reflections are going behind engineer's head but vocal booth might not be able to use since speaker is so close to booth's wall. you can redesign to get isolation for the booth, remove it or use that space for other purpose. "Personally" I like studios with viewing glass on the side more than front viewing glass coz we are in digital audio era. Computers are recorders and they need screen to monitor GUI and I love using large/multiple screens which can block studio window if window is in the front of Control room. I always do audio edit on the fly and look through studio window only when I speak with singers/musicians. Sometime I look at computer's monitor more than studio window. This is why I'd place studio room at the side of control room. Again this is just my personal opinion. Joka: Are you talking about Critical distance right? Middle of the room isn't always bad place for listening. As long as you hear direct sound more than reverberation. if you treat the room right it's going to be OK There's many studios that place engineer's seats almost in the middle of the room. such as
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picture from another thread
ken_ardency wrote:
I've checked ray tracing it's still OK. First reflections are going behind engineer's head but vocal booth might not be able to use since speaker is so close to booth's wall. you can redesign to get isolation for the booth, remove it or use that space for other purpose.
I like the first plan too and yes without the vocal booth :) I did something but as i said in the beginning I suck at SketchUp Ken I would appreciate if you can help me with this. Floor plan,framing and what not :) Thanks.
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It seems you have chosen the simplest solution. I would probably go for the same one. Did you check the ratios of the control room and the live room? Maybe If you leave the window in the control room parallel to the window of the live room it would be easier to make it. And probably a lot of absorption in the back wall of the control room, since I don't know if there is enough distance for diffuser. Just a thought. I will leave more experienced to give you better suggestions. Maybe this link will help you it has room dimension calculator and lot more from Chris Whealy: http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/ControlRoom.html Cheers, Joka :D
Joka yes I've checked ratio. I used boner's ratio for control room. now it's a bit off few cm. but if ognen'd like to stick to ratio just revise the plan a little bit and his room will be in boner's ratio. Thanks for sharing interesting link. :D Ognen I'm glad you like it. I've change the plan a little bit though. I flip control room because you have to set drums and mics away from entrance. That makes you have to turn more than 90degree to look at musician in live room. So I flip it arround now you see musician in live room easie coz you don't have to turn almost to the back. I've unparallelled 2 wall in live room to keep it simple you can add corner basstrap if you'd like to. here it is
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and Here is 3D render how it might look. color and decoration is up to you.
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I can't attach sketchup file here file is too big (3MB components are removed from model and library) anyone please tell me how to save skp smaller. :lol:
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OK I reduced sketchup file by remove all components and save it as sketchup version 3 file. framing guide I tried to keep everything in groups and components so you can torn them apart and look at the detail you should check this thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=66&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=soffit&start=0 for soffit mounting part. I didn't show any insulations in the plan but every stud spaces should fill in with some kind of insulation and cover with fabric, thin plywood and slat finish in some wall between two room I put in 2 layers of 5/8" gypsum on each side. Since there are so many parts I might miss something. Please excuse me for that :oops: Cheers - Ken
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Hi Ken, Is it possible to use the space behind the front wall as a bass trap it seems there is a lot of room there? Same goes for the back wall and corners? What about the ceiling treatment? It looks really nice :D
Ken I can't believe that you did all this, I would like to say thank you very much but I don't believe that that's enough. Anyways what can I do with the acoustics ,some suggestions for diffusers, absorbers, or maybe different materials as I said before stone or brick maybe. Thank you very much, again :)
Thanks Joka and Ognen Front part Yes fill in with some kind of insulation it will become front corners bass trap. I believe bass trapping is another benefit of soffit mounting. see picture below I believe it's John's work
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Ceiling I think I'm going to leave it parallel to the floor to keep it simple to build. So Panel Absorber (Cloud) will be needed to stop early reflection from ceiling. here are some example from other forum members ADAM http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9310
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Todmil's cloud http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8276
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Many more samples and construction guides here http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10304 If you'd like angled ceiling to make reflection goes to rear wall it will be like side view I've shown before. addition framing will be needed. Rear wall After discuss with Stuart this room is not long enough to use diffuser that tuned lower than 600Hz. So there's no point to use diffuser. So We better make it absorb at the rear. Just fill in some insulation to stud space and cover with fabric like John's small studio plan. see it here http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5457 or you can follow these steps 1. change corner to 30 degree 2. move rear stud wall forward a little bit 3. hang some Acoustic Hangers. 4. Cover with fabric turn it to false wall with acoustic hangers behind it. similar to this (I believe it's John Sayers 's design)
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see Acoustic hanger's detail here http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12365 one of stone or brick wall ? I'm not so sure about that. let me do some research first. I've seen some studios with one or more stone walls but personally I think you need more than one side to get benefit from it. Such as if you'd like to get good natural reverberation you'll need more than one reflection and you need very large space and same as diffuser you might need larger room coz in my opinion some stone walls are diffusers. BTW John has written in his article about Slat resonator "broadband low mid absorber is created that still keeps the high frequencies alive" maybe you don't need stone wall to make live room alive. if you want to make your room live. I think you could build another slat wall opposite to exist slat resonator wall. It will Absorb low-mid and make room live at the same time. I think it's might be better and less risk than building stone or brick wall Cheers -Ken
Hi Ken, This is cool. Nice to see the pictures with some of construction details, thanks. I red the link about the hangers and I didn't see any formula for calculating the hangers absorption frequency. Any suggestions ? Cheers, Joka :D
Joka wrote:
I didn't see any formula for calculating the hangers absorption frequency.
I didn't see any formula too. :lol: I think you don't need formula because it's wide band absorber How big hanger should be? This kind of absorbers are often seen in Tom Hidley's Non-Environment design. The closest answer i could find is "Hidley was using absorber systems of about 1.2 m on the rear walls" This sentence comes from a book called "Recording studio design" by Philip Newell
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insulation size is 0.6m x 1.2m So I guess Largest Hanger should be the same size as insulation :lol:
Hi Ken, I think that your conclusion is logical but I've seen hangers, in the back, front corners and sides long as room height. Anyway it is probably difficult to explain the absorption process with physic laws or exactly with formula . Most probably is trial and error thing and people learn with experience. As far as Tom Hidley goes, his designs are hangers all around the room. So for containing the problems with modes and low frequencies is probably tho make as much hangers as room will allow. And if after the measurements shows you've gone to far with absorption to add some reflective surfaces. Is there any other material beside Homosote that is adequate for the core of the hangers? Just a thought :D Joka :D
Yeah 1.2m wide and make the height almost as room's height. Actually you can make it up to 1.8m. and this is John's article
Acoustic Hangers. This is a system of fibre board panels that are wrapped with insulation and are hung freely using wire or rope. The large hangers 1.8m x 500mm work in the low frequency range whilst the panels 1.2m x 300mm effect the low mid frequencies. It is common to have up to a 1.2m space at the rear of the control room with the large hangers whilst the smaller hangers are effective if suspended in the ceiling cavity created by a false ceiling.
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fiberboard Should work too as John's diagram shown here
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I can't find any other article about acoustic hangers not even in several Acoustic books that I have. Maybe it's Tom's secret recipe and there could be other Absorber systems that Tom used in his design as Newell's written "Hidley was using absorber systems" :D I guess what make hanger effective would be gravity. When sound wave hit acoustic hanger sound pressure push hanger move and gravity keeps forcing it to swing back to its neutral position. Hanger's Oscillation creates resistance against sound pressure. I think this is how Acoustic hanger able to absorb low frequency. It's just my guess I could be wrong and I'm not sure I use proper word to describe this. Cheers - Ken
Yes fill in with some kind of insulation it will become front corners bass trap. I believe bass trapping is another benefit of soffit mounting. see picture below I believe it's John's work
Right, but that's not the final complete structure. With John's design, only the BOTTOM section (under the shelf) is for bass trapping. The section above that (where the speaker sits) is filled with insulation to damp resonance in the cavity caused by the speaker itself, but is not actually treatment for the room. There's large, massive, thick, heavy front panel that goes over that section, which is the "infinite baffle" for the speaker itself.
leave it parallel to the floor to keep it simple to build. So Panel Absorber (Cloud) will be needed to stop early reflection from ceiling
Right. And if you also put a hard back on that cloud (such as very thick plywood), that can also help to break up vertical room modes, to some extent.
in my opinion some stone walls are diffusers.
Yes, but only at very high frequencies. Sound waves are only affected by objects that are similar in size to the wavelength, or larger. So the variations in the stone surface have to be really deep to have an effect on mids and lows. A smooth stone surface, for example, is an excellent acoustic reflector for all frequencies with practically no diffusion, but a very irregular stone surface with peaks and depressions varying by several inches is a good reflector for mid-highs and highs, and a reflector for lower frequencies.
John has written in his article about Slat resonator "broadband low mid absorber is created that still keeps the high frequencies alive" maybe you don't need stone wall to make live room alive.
Right! :) Slot walls can keep a room sounding natural and bright, depending on how they are set up and tuned.
I red the link about the hangers and I didn't see any formula for calculating the hangers absorption frequency.
As far as I'm aware, there has not been much research done on hangers, and all the evidence for how well they work is empirical. Tom Hidley seems to be the guy who came up with the concept, and John uses it frequently in his designs (me too!). They work, but there isn't much info on how they work. But they don't need tuning: they are broadband bass traps. Basically, the bigger and deeper then are, the lower they go in absorbing bass.
Anyway it is probably difficult to explain the absorption process with physic laws or exactly with formula .
From what I've seen, they work sort of like wave guides, both re-directing and absorbing low-frequency acoustic energy at the same time. From what I have seen in tests of rooms I designed that were tested both before and after the hangers went in, they extend the path length that a wave must follow, and thus force the mode down to a lower frequency while also damping it. Also, Since John sets them up at quarter-wave points for room modes, I also have the impression that there is diffraction going on too. So it seems to be several principles of acoustics going on at once. Maybe one day if I have time ( haha! Good joke! :) ) I'll do some experimenting on angles, sizes and locations, and see if I can figure out something useful.
I guess what make hanger effective would be gravity. When sound wave hit acoustic hanger sound pressure push hanger move and gravity keeps forcing it to swing back to its neutral position. Hanger's Oscillation creates resistance against sound pressure. I think this is how Acoustic hanger able to absorb low frequency.
I doubt it is gravity! The period of oscillation of those things is from maybe one or two per second, to sever seconds long, way, way below even the very lowest infrasonic, or even earthquake frequencies. The very lowest sound wave frequencies (wavelengths longer than the size of the panels) most likely cause vibration in the panel itself, which is damped by the insulation. Somewhat higher frequencies would undergo diffraction and absorption along the surfaces of the panels, and higher still it would just be simple absorption. There might even be some limited diffusion going on, since the panels are really large and regularly spaced.
So for containing the problems with modes and low frequencies is probably tho make as much hangers as room will allow.
To be honest, I prefer to run an acoustic test of the empty room BEFORE any treatment goes in, to see how it is behaving as just a raw shell, then decide how to treat. Then I test again after each acoustic device goes in, to check that it really is working as planned, to see what side effects it created, and to decide on the next step. Predicting things with calculators and software is great, but rooms are seldom built exactly according to plan, and therefore don't respond exactly as expected, so it's better to treat the way it REALLY reacts, than the way it is PREDICTED to react....
And if after the measurements shows you've gone to far with absorption to add some reflective surfaces.
Exactly! That's what I like about "inside out" construction: it pretty much guarantees that you will have way too much absorption in the room, so most of your treatment is about putting things back into the room with reflection and perhaps diffusing, instead of trying to take more out. - Stuart -
Thanks Ken, Thanks Stuart, All good points there. :) Cheers, Aleksandar :D