Floor Plan For A New Studio?

Hi, I've been learning from this forum a lot of things when i was making my first studio or should i say a place to play and do some mixing :) Now i'm in a situation where i will start from beginning,actually my project for my new house it's already done so this is the place that i have to work with. Dimensions L:8,4m W:5,7m H:3,5m. In my last studio most of the time I was in my control room, making music,mixing and recording vocals. I think that i'm going to do the same again but i want to have the option to record something bigger, drums for example or even a live band. So this is what I did. I really suck in SketchUp, I'm a musician after all :). Help would be appreciated.Thanks.

Gah.... I'm trying to view the sketchup, but I'm getting a "newer version" error. I'm not sure why because when I go to the website it says I have the latest version. Where are you getting version 13ish from? Google is telling me that 8ish is the current version? Is it a paid versus free issue? It's happened to me once before so obviously it's not an issue with just this file. If I can ask without causing too much trouble, is it a pirated paid for version issue?

I downloaded it from SketchUp site, I guess this is the last version. http://www.sketchup.com/download

And another one with a Sound Lock and Sliding Glass Doors,what do u people think? Thanks.

Sorry man. I still can't open it. Good luck with the project!

Hi "Ognen", and welcome to the forum!

Dimensions L:8,4m W:5,7m H:3,5m.

That's a pretty good ratio, actually. Nicely tune, too. Shoulf work out great.

So this is what I did. I really suck in SketchUp,

I tried to open your Sketchup files, but I'm getting the same error message that Johnnie mentioned.. Not sure why... - Stuart -

Here, I exported all the files as .png so u people know what I'm talking about. Sorry for this version of sketchup.

Great! To me, "studio 2" with the corner control room makes the most sense. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Great! To me, "studio 2" with the corner control room makes the most sense. - Stuart -

Sorry for asking, but why? :)

Complexity, unknown acoustics, wasted space. Complexity, because trying to build a studio with ten walls is going to be a major undertaking: Lots of strange angles to figure out for the framing, especially for the front of the room (assuming that you also slant your ceiling). Acoustics: I've never even seen a ten-sided control room before, and I'm not aware of any studies on how that would perform acoustically. But with that many sides, it's getting to be very close to a circle, so I would expect to see some focusing effects, strange modal behavior, and complicated reflection patterns. Ray-tracing that is going to e a nightmare. I have no idea ho you would go about treating such a room, acoustically. Wasted space, because all of the space behind those walls is lost. That's a lot of space.... So those would be my three main reasons for avoiding ten-sided shapes and going with a more traditional splayed rectangle. I'm not saying you can't do a 10-sided room: just that it would be complex, and I don't see the benefit. - Stuart -

Stuart thank u very,very much, if u ever come to this part of the world beer would be inevitable :) Cheers!

I've never been to Macedonia, but I have heard the beer is pretty good, so you bet I'll drop by to take you up on your offer if I'm ever there! :) - Stuart -

This is the last one I promise :) I would appreciate some comments on this one to.Thanks.

Hi I'm new member here but I've been reading this forum for years. I think Shape of Control room "Studio 4" won't create RFZ. Back wall could make sound reflect back to listening position I agree with Stuart "Studio 2" control room makes most sense ิีฺBut in my opinion layout would be better if entrance lead to control room first 'coz u'd never want people open the door and interrupt recording session. Here I attached my plan. I guess after floating floor and floating ceiling Height that u properly have left is around 3-3.2 meters. One of your goals is Recording drums Height is important. So, I used 3.2 to get Room Ratio. Ratio that I used are: Control Room I used Boner's ratio 1 : 1.26 : 1.59 So W = 4.032m. and L=5.088m. Studio Room I used Sepmeyer's ratio 1 : 1.4 : 1.39 So W = 3.648m. and L=4.448m. After I divided into 2 room and shape it, I found that there is free area left so I throw Vocal Booth and Amp Booths in the plan 'coz u said "Live Band". I think these Booths might be useful for live band recording. 0.9m in the corner is not enough to create 1/4 of wavelength size Bass trap. So I think in this case corner resonator is more effective than Small bass trap Ray tracing in case resonator wall is too much then it's ok to build it as normal reflective wall it still create RFZ. Blue area is RFZ I know it would be better that control room face directly to studio. I tried it but I can't get the shape right so it come out like this. If I have time I'll try to redesign control room to face directly to studio room You have very interesting Space I can't stop myself to draw the plan hope you'll like it

I think Shape of Control room "Studio 4" won't create RFZ. Back wall could make sound reflect back to listening position

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of RFZ! The rear wall will, indeed, reflect sound back to the listening position, and that is actually part of the RFZ concept. It provides part of the reverberant field that follows the ITDG, that is so necessary to prevent the issues with LEDE design. The rear wall must be treated correctly to make that field diffuse, and at the specified level for the RFZ design.

But in my opinion layout would be better if entrance lead to control room first

Well, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. Load-in and load-out are major problems if you have to lug all the equipment, instruments and people through the control room to get in/out of the studio. Ideally, it is best to have separate entrances for each room. But if you can only have one entrance, then it is generally better to have that going directly into the LR, and simply put a light box above the door, with a "RECORDING: DO NOT ENTER" sign over it.

I guess after floating floor

Floating floor? Why would Ognan need a floating floor? He did not mention any reason why he would need to float his floor. Are you aware of the complexity and cost of floating a floor correctly? You might want to read this information on the subject: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 As well as this research paper: http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/d ... /ir802.pdf Floating a floor correctly is a major undertaking, and is very seldom necessary.

0.9m in the corner is not enough to create 1/4 of wavelength size Bass trap.

why do you think that a bass trap needs to be 1/4 wave deep? And 1/4 wave for which frequency? Andre Vare has shown that this is simply not necessary. Even relatively shallow absorption has a significant effect down to quite low frequencies. In reality, 0.9m is plenty for either a superchunk or a corner absorber.

So I think in this case corner resonator is more effective than Small bass trap

You show a slot wall resonator for that purpose: perhaps you could tell us what dimensions of slat, slot and cavity you would use to trap down to the same low frequency as a 0.9m 1/4 wave? Also, perhaps you could share with us the predicted efficiency of a slot resonator acting at such low frequencies?

I can't stop myself to draw the plan

Ummmm... you seem to have placed the main speakers just a little higher than the standard height recommended by the ITU, EBU, AES, Dolby, and other such organizations. You also seem to have tilted them downward drastically beyond the maximum recommended angle of 10°. Sorry, but that is just plain impractical: The psycho-acoustical perception from such a speaker layout would be terrible. Major comb filtering, too. You also seem to have a Schroder diffuser on the rear wall, but the room is not long enough to permit the use of such a diffuser. Cox and D'Antonio recommend a minimum of ten feet and at least three times the longest wavelength scattered by the diffuser. In that room, the distance would be more like eight and a half feet. You don't say what frequency range you plan to tune that diffuser to, but based on the visible size of the elements, it goes pretty low. The lobing artifacts would be quite serious.

Studio Room I used Sepmeyer's ratio

Why? What's the purpose of using a ratio in a live room that isn't even rectangular? I'm just not understanding this design concept at all. There are so many issues that just don't make any sense, acoustically. - Stuart -

Oh Thank you for advice. Some point it's because of my english. and Rough 3D just pulling it up to see how it's going to look like. I didn't think it seriously. My bad that i didn't mention this.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of RFZ! The rear wall will, indeed, reflect sound back to the listening position, and that is actually part of the RFZ concept. It provides part of the reverberant field that follows the ITDG, that is so necessary to prevent the issues with LEDE design. The rear wall must be treated correctly to make that field diffuse, and at the specified level for the RFZ design.

Sorry I didn't mean rear I mean side wall in the back half of the room. It narrows down so I think it may have early reflection bounce back but I didn't check ray tracing so I'm not sure about that. I should use "Maybe" in the sentence and call it side wall. it's because of my bad English. sorry :oops:

Well, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. Load-in and load-out are major problems if you have to lug all the equipment, instruments and people through the control room to get in/out of the studio. Ideally, it is best to have separate entrances for each room. But if you can only have one entrance, then it is generally better to have that going directly into the LR, and simply put a light box above the door, with a "RECORDING: DO NOT ENTER" sign over it.

Yeah that makes sense but I think there is no right or wrong for this. i Think sometime those signs do not work people still open (at least my family my sign never stop them disturbing me :lol:) or bang the door especially kids and what if someone wants to leave and come back in the studio while recording? Such as going to rest room (which is located outside) and he/she can't hold it anymore. Stop recording for that? So in my opinion it's better to reach CR or sound lock first for people entering and leaving without stop recording. Door size is the same as entrance only have to pass control room first but your point does make sense too. LR first? No problem here it is. (Slide door as an option) also include RFZ check dot lines are direct sound and normal lines are first reflections

Floating a floor correctly is a major undertaking, and is very seldom necessary.

Thanks for correcting my mistake. Yeah you're right :oops: he didn't say and I forgot it's not like my city that there is subways and lot of Constructions going on. sometime I can hear construction in some studio I worked in.(structure borne) and most of town house here 3-4 stories building and mostly studio won't be in first or M floor so floor isolation needed most of the times (in my city)

Ummmm... you seem to have placed the main speakers just a little higher than the standard height recommended by the ITU, EBU, AES, Dolby, and other such organizations. You also seem to have tilted them downward drastically beyond the maximum recommended angle of 10°. Sorry, but that is just plain impractical: The psycho-acoustical perception from such a speaker layout would be terrible. Major comb filtering, too.

Yeah after I posted it. I was thinking main speaker is facing down too much (15 degree) that's my bad and thanks for confirming it :lol: Sorry I forgot to mention it's rough 3D doesn't have to be exactly the same as 3D I presented OK lets fix that I read some book said sound can reflect on desk/console's surface here is the side Ray Tracing check dot lines are direct sound and normal lines are first reflections

You also seem to have a Schroder diffuser on the rear wall, but the room is not long enough to permit the use of such a diffuser. Cox and D'Antonio recommend a minimum of ten feet and at least three times the longest wavelength scattered by the diffuser. In that room, the distance would be more like eight and a half feet. You don't say what frequency range you plan to tune that diffuser to, but based on the visible size of the elements, it goes pretty low. The lobing artifacts would be quite serious.

Thanks for advice. i just throw in diffuser from 3D warehouse ('coz drawing diffuser could be nightmare for me) . I fit it in the rear wall just to show diffuser on the rear wall . At least 10 feet? Diffuser in the plan is 3.3m away from listener position.(not 8 1/2' It's already 11feet from the beginning I didn't edit plan. sorry that I didn't show in dimension) So for this plan that diffuser should be tune to arround 344Hz lets say diffuser that has lowest diffused Frequency around 300-500Hz should be OK well let see That diffuser shown in 3D picture has Depth of deepest well is 170mm . So lowest diffused frequency around 500Hz. 3 times of it wavelength would be 2m. I think the room is long enough

You show a slot wall resonator for that purpose: perhaps you could tell us what dimensions of slat, slot and cavity you would use to trap down to the same low frequency as a 0.9m 1/4 wave? Also, perhaps you could share with us the predicted efficiency of a slot resonator acting at such low frequencies?

I haven't calculate dimensions of slats yet but john's HR calculator would do the job. slot resonator should be calculated and tuned to absorb all room modes(not just axial). please correct me if I'm wrong In my understanding Bass trap should be 1/4 wavelength of lowest room mode. (Do I've got it right? ) In my plan it would be 33.8 Hz and 1/4 wavelength is 2.55m. too much for small room. use resonator will safe a lot of space. a slat dimension would be slot width 1mm. Slat width 180mm. Dept from the wall 672mm. slat Depth 19mm. just one slat for now.

Why? What's the purpose of using a ratio in a live room that isn't even rectangular?

I think using ratio would be easier to treat the room and deal with resonances that might boost/cut sound produced in the room. That's why we design control room in ratio and I believe we should do the same in live/studio room so mics can pick up how instruments really sound. That's is my purpose of using ratio in live room. :oops: It was rectangular when I divide into 2 rooms but I thought cutting a corner give it to vocal booth, put in resonator wall/corner and it's still in ratio. Guess I've got it all wrong :oops: thanks for correcting me I'm not native English speaker sorry if I'm typing something I shouldn't or something doesn't make sense. Again please correct me if anything wrong and thanks for correcting mistakes. I've learn quite a lot from your reply. Nice to discuss with you :D Ken

Yeah that makes sense but I think there is no right or wrong for this.

That's true. Fair enough. That's more a matter of opinion, and the specifics of the studio owner. For people who change sessions, musicians and equipment all the time, day after day, it's best to have the LR easily accessible, but if the setup seldom changes, or it is a one-man studio, then it doesn't really matter.

Yeah after I posted it. I was thinking main speaker is facing down too much (15 degree) that's my bad and thanks for confirming it

Right. 10° is the recommended limit, but 7° is about as much as you want to go in practice. Beyond that, there are psycho-acoustical effects from the high angle (changes in frequency and direction perception), plus the big issue of reflections from the desk/console.

OK lets fix that

Much better! Nice rendering, by the way. But there's still a problem with your speaker angles: the acoustic axes of your speakers are aimed at the engineers eyes, not his ears! :shock: :!: The point of intersection of those axes should be several inches behind the engineer's head, not in the middle of his head. That creates a broader sound-stage, and also gives slightly better coverage to the couch.

lets say diffuser that has lowest diffused Frequency around 300-500Hz should be OK

Schroeder diffusers (and most other numeric sequence based diffusers) still have an effect down to at least one octave below the low cut-off frequency. For 300 Hz, a full wave is 3.7 feet, three times that is 11.1 feet, but there will still be scattering and lobing down to 150 Hz, which is a distance of 22.2 feet. You would have to tune that diffuser no lower than about 650 Hz low cut-off to be usable... But that's just for the engineer's mix position. The couch is way closer than that to the diffuser. Less than a foot, for the people sitting there. That's why numeric based diffusers aren't normally recommended for small studios. The room has to be pretty large before you can use them successfully. Or tune them so high that they aren't really much use anyway...

I haven't calculate dimensions of slats yet but john's HR calculator would do the job. slot resonator should be calculated and tuned to absorb all room modes(not just axial). please correct me if I'm wrong

You are not wrong, per se, but the problem is that you didn't do the math! :) Tuning a slot wall to low bass frequencies requires some very strange sizes of slots, slats and air cavities... That was the point I'm making: you are proposing a solution without first checking that it will actually be practical to implement.

In my understanding Bass trap should be 1/4 wavelength of lowest room mode. (Do I've got it right? )

Not really. If you check the specs for OC-703, for example, even a panel just 4" thick has pretty good absorption at 125 Hz (coefficient 0.84). The quarter wave for 125 Hz is 69 cm, yet a thin panel just a small fraction of that thickness (only 14%) is doing a decent job of absorbing. Andre Vare says that 5% of the longest wavelength is about as much as you need. 5% of a 20 Hz wave is 86 cm...

a slat dimension would be slot width 1mm. Slat width 180mm. Dept from the wall 672mm. slat Depth 19mm. just one slat for now.

:) Yep! My point exactly. You need a huge slat with a very tiny gap (1mm) and a very, very deep cavity: 67 cm :!: And with only one single slat. the Q would be very high: in effect, that would be tuned to exactly 33 Hz, with very little absorption at nearby frequencies. Even assuming that you could build a 1mm gap accurately enough, if the mode happened to be at 36 Hz instead of 33, you would not hit it. And if the gap ended up at 0.8mm or 1.5 mm instead of 1mm, you would also not hit it. Helmholtz resonators are notoriously hard to tune, and since they have a high Q, they need to be built and tested and adjusted very carefully. What looks good on paper doesn't necessarily work out in practice. Finally, with one single slot, assuming it is 90cm long and 1mm wide, with a cavity depth of 67.2 you have an effective resonant volume of about 6 cm3. With a Helmholtz resonator you need the effective volume to be about 1% of the room to get a useful effect. That room has a total volume of about 50,000,000 cm3, so you are a little short on effective volume! You'd need may more volume to have a useful effect on that room mode. And that doesn't even consider the limited efficiency of Helmholtz resonators at very low frequencies, or the practical limitations of accurately measuring room response and resonator response at such frequencies. That's the reason why broadband absorption is recommended for bass trapping in small rooms: it does the job very well, even at low frequencies, without requiring excessive space or complicated tuning.

I think using ratio would be easier to treat the room and deal with resonances that might boost/cut sound produced in the room. That's why we design control room in ratio and I believe we should do the same in live/studio room so mics can pick up how instruments really sound. That's is my purpose of using ratio in live room.

The problem is that ratios are only valid for rectangular rooms with 6 sides (4 walls, floor, ceiling) where all the opposite surfaces are parallel. If the walls are not parallel, or if there are more walls, then ratios are meaningless. They no longer tell you anything about the room. All ratios (and all ratio calculators) are based on the modal response of rectangular rooms. Since mode are directly related to walls, ratios are also related to the walls. If the room is not a perfect rectangle, then ratios and calculators are invalid, since they are giving you the wrong answer. For non-rectangular rooms, the only way to calculate modal response is with FEM/FEA software and a good operator who knows how to set the boundary conditions correctly, and knows how to interpret the results. For rooms that are slightly off rectangular (for example, if the walls or ceiling are splayed by a few degrees) then the error isn' that great, and you can still get a rough idea of room response, but it won't be accurate. However, your LR has 7 sides instead of 6, and one of those is greatly angled anyway, there's no point at all in basing the room on a ratio. Besides, live rooms are supposed to have character, coloration, and a unique "sound" that musicians find attractive. Control rooms have to be neutral yes, but neutral often doesn't sound "good" to musicians. Live rooms are supposed to sound good, so that musicians feel comfortable making music in them: So a live room should be designed to proved a nice "vibe" or "mood", but without being terrible acoustically either. It's a balancing act...

I've learn quite a lot from your reply.

That's what we are here for! :) - Stuart -

You people BLOW ME AWAY!!!! :yahoo: I can't find the words to express my gratitude.

Thank you Stuart. I wish I could find better word than thank you. Here is easy rough 2D plan. I can't find place to put Hinge doors in between CR and LR so lets use slide door. I've checked ray tracing and Blue area is RFZ Need Larger Live room? You can re-size control room by shorting those parallel walls and you still get that RFZ at mixing position. Like this: Now it's up to you how big you'd like control room to be. Treating live room is also up to you (in the image just rough idea). If you need a booth. I believe you can do something like this if this is OK. I can help you with 3D and share sketchup file. Ken

3D pull from that rough 2 D and dragging stuff in Rough framing. (showing just 2.4m Height) Don't forget you can re-size control room as you'd like.

Hi Ken, This looks really nice. Much better than the other suggestions. Seems that it is simpler and cheaper to built also :) I am interested what would you or anybody else suggest for acoustical treatment of the room? Cheers. Joka :D

Need Larger Live room? You can re-size control room by shorting those parallel walls and you still get that RFZ at mixing position. Like this:

The problem with doing that is that it places your head too close to the rear wall, so you no longer meet the RFZ requirements. RFZ is actually a patented (trademarked?) design criteria, as far as I recall.

I am interested what would you or anybody else suggest for acoustical treatment of the room?

I would do standard treatment: Deep bass traps in corners, absorption on first reflection points, ceiling cloud, thick absorption on rear wall, then check with REW to see what still needs doing. - Stuart -

The problem with doing that is that it places your head too close to the rear wall, so you no longer meet the RFZ requirements. RFZ is actually a patented (trademarked?) design criteria, as far as I recall.

Oh thanks. That's make sense. So, don't do that :lol:

ken_ardency wrote:

The problem with doing that is that it places your head too close to the rear wall, so you no longer meet the RFZ requirements. RFZ is actually a patented (trademarked?) design criteria, as far as I recall.

Oh thanks. That's make sense. So, don't do that :lol:

But that will leave me with a very small live room, right? And I was wondering what would a brick or a stone wall do to the live room? Let's say just one side of the live room? I've seen a lot of drum recording rooms with one or more walls in stone or brick.

Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems that with this set up seating position and the sweet spot is going to be somewhere in the middle of the room. Isn't that the worst place for mixing position? :(