Drum Room Construction

Thanks for the translation! That makes sense. And once again, we see that they specify concrete... The floated floor in this case is 5cm of concrete with tiles on top. Lots of mass.

I saw 4 suspensions installed like this

:shock: :!: Lucky you saw that! It' looks like the two sections would have been in direct contact, rubbing together, and thus short-circuiting the entire ceiling. That would have damaged your isolation a lot! Fortunately you saw it and fixed it. It sounds like you will need to keep a close watch on what those guys are doing. Like we Antonios and the rest of us have said many times: This will only work if everything is installed carefully, properly, and with understanding of the acoustic reasons for everything. It only takes one mistake like that one to destroy everything you are trying to do.

All joints are unsealed, i have no doors, no silencers, no sound treatment in the room and i still haven't made the floor. ... my parents told me that they could hear me but there where NO vibrations!

That pretty much confirms what Brien and I have been saying all along: the floor isn't needed. Just a drum riser. :) My opinion is still the same: the proposed floor will work, but is not needed. I'd still suggest what I said before: hold off on that floor until you have the rest of the room done, including the HVAC with silencers, as well as the doors. Test the room without the floor, and see how it works out. You can still add the floor if it turns out that you need it, but I suspect you wont, if you have a decent drum riser. I still haven't seen teh final plan for your floor. You mentioned only wood, but all of the diagrams posted by Antonios's company say the same thing: concrete. If that image that Antonios linked to and that you translated for us is correct for the type of pads you bought, then you need 5cm of concrete on your new floor, or the equivalent amount of mass with some other material. Or maybe Antonios didn't post the right information? Maybe that's for a different product? Maybe you can post a diagram of that proposed floor, with the details. I'm curious about that. But I still suggest that you leave that until the end, until the rest of the room is finished, so you can see if you really do need it or not. Anyway, this new test you did also confirms what we said about the previous build: it was NEVER going to work! You were a lot further advanced with that first attempt when you tested it, and the situation was much worse than what you have now, built properly! So at least you are no certain that what we have been telling you is correct, and that you made the right decision to tear down the old, useless attempt and re-build it. - Stuart -

:shock: :!: Lucky you saw that! It' looks like the two sections would have been in direct contact, rubbing together, and thus short-circuiting the entire ceiling. That would have damaged your isolation a lot! Fortunately you saw it and fixed it. It sounds like you will need to keep a close watch on what those guys are doing. Like we Antonios and the rest of us have said many times: This will only work if everything is installed carefully, properly, and with understanding of the acoustic reasons for everything. It only takes one mistake like that one to destroy everything you are trying to do.

You cant imagine what i have been going through, how much stress and disappointment i felt because of this guy! I have to supervise this guy all the time. Its worse than supervising my nephews in their crazy game time!

That pretty much confirms what Brien and I have been saying all along: the floor isn't needed. Just a drum riser. :) My opinion is still the same: the proposed floor will work, but is not needed. I'd still suggest what I said before: hold off on that floor until you have the rest of the room done, including the HVAC with silencers, as well as the doors. Test the room without the floor, and see how it works out. You can still add the floor if it turns out that you need it, but I suspect you wont, if you have a decent drum riser.

Yes i don't doubt you guys, but i still have not heard myself what my parents said to me (no impact noise)

I still haven't seen teh final plan for your floor. You mentioned only wood, but all of the diagrams posted by Antonios's company say the same thing: concrete. If that image that Antonios linked to and that you translated for us is correct for the type of pads you bought, then you need 5cm of concrete on your new floor, or the equivalent amount of mass with some other material. Or maybe Antonios didn't post the right information? Maybe that's for a different product? Maybe you can post a diagram of that proposed floor, with the details. I'm curious about that. But I still suggest that you leave that until the end, until the rest of the room is finished, so you can see if you really do need it or not.

A friend will help me to place the pads correctly according to the load. Generally 5 pieces (double layer) are placed per m2. I mentioned if i remember well, 2 layers of water proof plywood (4.4cm both) with 2 layers of gypsum board in between them over 2 layers of the pads (the same model like the diagram) with rockwool between the pads. So i'll have a 12-13 cm floor. Stuart i understand what you say about the floor but...waterproof plywood is expensive and i have already paid for that. If i tell him to give me the money of the plywood and take it back he wont accept...so if i dont use it i will be a waste of more than 600€. Antonis's brother told me that the mass of the wood and gypsumboard is enough to load the pads into the charging state.

Anyway, this new test you did also confirms what we said about the previous build: it was NEVER going to work! You were a lot further advanced with that first attempt when you tested it, and the situation was much worse than what you have now, built properly! So at least you are no certain that what we have been telling you is correct, and that you made the right decision to tear down the old, useless attempt and re-build it.

Wanna hear something really funny..? I asked one of his technicians how many "studios" he has build with the contractor, he told me over 20. And when i asked him how he builds them he told me they make triple rooms..!! So they have a room they build one inside of it, then another and then another one! Nice shit ha?

Update, Sound-check No 2 So i brought a friend to play some drums. I went to the ground floor at my parent's apartment. Clearly there were no vibrations AT ALL on the floor. I could hear my friend playing. What i was listening it was my drums but it was like the sound was being transmitted through the walls. When i placed my hand on several walls i felt no vibrations at all but it was like the sound would come of them. So what kind of noise is that?

You cant imagine what i have been going through, how much stress and disappointment i felt because of this guy!

I can imagine... But think of it this way: At least you are on the right track now, you can see that what you are doing is working already (even though it isn't finished yet), and there isn't too much to go now. Pretty soon it will be finished, and you'll never have to see "that guy" again! :)

2 layers of water proof plywood (4.4cm both) with 2 layers of gypsum board in between them

4.4cm for two layers of plywood?? As in 2.2 cm for each layer??? That's thick plywood! Nice! That works out to roughly 52 kg/m2 of surface density (total, including gypsum and plywood). 5cm of concrete would be roughly twice that amount. How big is each pad?

waterproof plywood is expensive and i have already paid for that. If i tell him to give me the money of the plywood and take it back he wont accept

...Well, if you've got it and can't send it back, then I guess you might as well use it.

And when i asked him how he builds them he told me they make triple rooms..!! So they have a room they build one inside of it, then another and then another one! Nice shit ha?

:shock: Hoo boy!!!! That's TRIPLE LEAF at least, maybe more, depending on how they build it.... Man, there sure are a lot of people near you who paid way too much for their studios, and didn't get half the isolation they could have.... Maybe you should go into the studio building business, now that you know how to do it right!!!! :) :lol: :shock: :shot:

Clearly there were no vibrations AT ALL on the floor.

Excellent! That's good news.

it was like the sound was being transmitted through the walls. When i placed my hand on several walls i felt no vibrations at all but it was like the sound would come of them. So what kind of noise is that?

You mean that when you got your head close to the wall you could hear the drums better (especially the kick and snare), and when you moved your head further away you couldn't hear them so well? Is that roughly what you heard?? - Stuart -

How big is each pad?

6*6cm, 2.5cm height but 2 layers. That makes 6x6x5. It is the same pad shown in the case study i translated.

Maybe you should go into the studio building business, now that you know how to do it right!!!!

You think so? Why not! Plus i am i good salesman as well if i like what i sell. Interesting idea i'll think about it!

You mean that when you got your head close to the wall you could hear the drums better (especially the kick and snare), and when you moved your head further away you couldn't hear them so well? Is that roughly what you heard??

I could hear the drums clearly while i was sitting on the sofa or in the middle of the living room. When i was approaching walls i could hear them better but i couldn't feel vibrations on the walls as well. I have more stuff to do in that room. The last thing will be the sound treatment. I know just the basic classic stuff. I am thinking of making super-chunk bass traps in all corners and the classic diy broadband absorbers on walls. For the ceiling i dont know yet, i dont have much height. The room is not going to be a pro-recording room.

I could hear the drums clearly while i was sitting on the sofa or in the middle of the living room. When i was approaching walls i could hear them better but i couldn't feel vibrations on the walls as well.

OK, that's what I suspected. That's normal. You normally can hear low frequencies (bass) better when you get close to walls. This is sometimes called "bass build up". It isn't caused by vibrations in the walls, but rather by reflection of bass energy. For this same reason, home theater builders often put their subwoofer speakers up against a wall, or even better in a corner, since the wall gives the bass a free "boost". But all of that will go away once the room is finished. By the way, you do need to make sure that the contractor is sealing all joints very, very carefully! This is very important: All joints in the gypsum board must be sealed, and the joints on the second layer must NOT line up with the joints on the first layer. They must use proper acoustic sealant around the edges of all the walls, where the gypsum board meets the walls, floor and ceiling. - Stuart -

the joints on the second layer must NOT line up with the joints on the first layer.

I don't understand what this means :roll:

They must use proper acoustic sealant around the edges of all the walls, where the gypsum board meets the walls, floor and ceiling.

I am going to use Sika Backing Rod to fill the joint gaps and on top of that i am going to use elastic gum sealant something like this

Hi again, i uploaded a drawing that has to do with the elastic pads placement. According to Antonis 5.5 pieces / m2 should be placed approximately but at the drum-kit's space they should be placed more densely according the drum-kit's weight plus mine as dynamic load. The usable area is 9 m2 and the red square boxes is the division of the space in m2. The area inside (interior square) is the drum-kit's space where the pads are placed more densely. The pads i use are the same as the case study i translated - RED color, double layer. 6*6*5cm I don't know if it is right 100% so any recommendations are welcome!

I placed the pads with 60cm distance in between them, maybe i should buy 5 more for the drum-kit space. The space is 9.8 m2, 3.45(L) x 2.85(W) It looks like this:

Floor Elastic Pads Vibro EP RED 6x6x5 and rock-wool 75kg/m3. The distance between the pads is 60cm approximately and 5.5 pieces/m2 are placed approximately. In the drum-kit's area the pads are placed more densely Marine plywood 1st layer Gypsum-board 2 layers Marine plywood 2nd layer The floor has 2cm distance from the walls, the gaps will be sealed with backing rod and elastic sealant. The mass of the floor right now has set the pads in a charging state. The pads can handle the dynamic load of my weight and my kit's as well without getting overloaded.

Basic construction Finished i will do a Sound check in 3-4 hours!

Paintjob Elastic Sealant

Looks nice. :) How'd the sound check go?

Bawoo wrote:

How'd the sound check go?

My family told me that after the installation of the floor the results were much much better, so the floor actually works. I haven't heard the results myself yet.

Finished carpeting Assembling the kit, I think there is enough space for 3 persons to jam..!

Mmmm, drum kit. :D Glad the work is helping. I'd love a more scientific sound check result! But dude, you need a new snare head!

Bawoo wrote:

I'd love a more scientific sound check result!

What you mean by "scientific"

Bawoo wrote:

But dude, you need a new snare head!

That's not my snare man, mine is the one in the last pic! But you cant see the head, which is almost new.

What you mean by "scientific"

I reckon that he means you need to use a sound level meter to find out how much isolation you are getting! Objective numbers, not subjective opinions. And if you are getting "enough" isolation, then it's time to figure out your acoustic treatment! What isolation does basically, is to stop the sound getting out of the room. So if the sound can't get out, that means it stays IN! And if it stays in, then that means that the room sounds really bad. So now you have to measure the room response, and install the right treatment for whatever problems the room has: The best way to measure it, is to download "REW", which is free acoustic analysis software that is easy to use. So run a test with that (using a good loudspeaker, microphone and audio interface!), and post the resulting graphs here, so we can analyze them and tell you what you need to do to treat that room. One of the issues will most likely be the MAM resonance of the floor module that you built, but hopefully you damped that enough when you built it. But the major problems will be the modal response, which is simply due to the dimensions of the room: Hopefully, those can be treated to a certain extent with bass trapping, but you might also need something else. Once you post the graphs from REW, we'll be able to tell you what you need. - Stuart -

I reckon that he means you need to use a sound level meter to find out how much isolation you are getting! Objective numbers, not subjective opinions. And if you are getting "enough" isolation, then it's time to figure out your acoustic treatment! What isolation does basically, is to stop the sound getting out of the room. So if the sound can't get out, that means it stays IN! And if it stays in, then that means that the room sounds really bad.

Ok got that but i have not installed doors yet and i do not know when i will do that 'cause i am out of budget. The "best" i can do right know is to use some left over gypsum-boards and make 2 "doors" from those. One interior and one exteriors, 3ply boards and in between them i can hang some blankets, rockwool etc for dampening. Thats the only thing i can do right now.

So now you have to measure the room response, and install the right treatment for whatever problems the room has: The best way to measure it, is to download "REW", which is free acoustic analysis software that is easy to use. So run a test with that (using a good loudspeaker, microphone and audio interface!), and post the resulting graphs here, so we can analyze them and tell you what you need to do to treat that room. One of the issues will most likely be the MAM resonance of the floor module that you built, but hopefully you damped that enough when you built it. But the major problems will be the modal response, which is simply due to the dimensions of the room: Hopefully, those can be treated to a certain extent with bass trapping, but you might also need something else. Once you post the graphs from REW, we'll be able to tell you what you need.

OK bro, i hope this is a user friendly program. I have a friend who will help, he has a very good audio interface, good mic but loudspeaker i dont know...can we use active monitor instead of a loudspeaker? Thanx, Spiros

can we use active monitor instead of a loudspeaker?

Sure! As long as it has fairly flat response that covers the range of frequencies that are important to you, that's all that really matters. - Stuart -

We did the measurements roughly 'cause my friend saw and used the program at the same time. He proposed me to do the measurements again in a couple of days 'cause he needs some time to check the program in detail. He also proposed me that in the next measurement we should use a condenser omnidirectional mic. Specs: KRK Rokit 6 Active Studio Monitor AKG C3000B Condenser Cardioid Mic NI Audio Kontrol 1 Audio Interface These are the results:

Is there anyone that could tell me what these graphs mean and if the gear that we used is ok?

It means you have a problem and need some acoustic treatment!!! Yes, you should really use an omni mic, and yes your friend needs some more time to learn the software a bit better, and calibrate it correctly, but even so, even though those graphs are probably not very accurate, the problems are still quite obvious. I'm assuming that you did the test with no treatment in the room, correct? Just the bare walls, floor and ceiling, with no acoustic treatment? That's what it looks like from the graphs. You seem to have some major modal issues and bass build-up in there, but that is normal for a small room with no treatment. Most of that can be improved greatly with proper treatment. So, ask your friend to take some more readings in a few days, once he has figured out the software a bit, calibrated it, and found a better mic, and ask him to post graphs that show only the bottom half of the spectrum, from 20 Hz to 1 kHz. Most of your problems will be in the bottom half, so lets concentrate on that first. What I'd particularly want to see first is a more detailed and more accurate waterfall plot, as that will reveal a lot about the modal behavior. The bad news is that your room has serious acoustic issues. The good news is that this situation is normal and expected for a room like that, and the best news is that it can be treated with acoustic materials. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I'm assuming that you did the test with no treatment in the room, correct? Just the bare walls, floor and ceiling, with no acoustic treatment?

Yes, no treatment at all. I have not even installed doors! I have some left over gypsum-boards and i will use them by making 3 layer "covers". One inside one outside

Soundman2020 wrote:

The bad news is that your room has serious acoustic issues. The good news is that this situation is normal and expected for a room like that, and the best news is that it can be treated with acoustic materials.

I was expecting an answer like that to be honest. It is pretty logical. He presented me an "experiment" today. He started producing signals in certain frequencies and he told me to move around the room, stoop and stand up in different areas etc. With this experiment, what he explained me had to do with the "static acoustic waves", i don't know if this is the correct term in English, but now i understand why i can't hear my bass drums clearly when i play. I know it is early now to talk about the treatment of the room since we do not have a proper mic, calibrated software etc, but i have some general ideas and i would like to hear some opinions. PANELS: I already have wood-bars 60cm long and i have enough to make 16 small panels 60x60cm. All panels i have seen so far are not that small, they are 1.20mx0.60m. I assume small panels would not be a problem since we are also talking about a small room. I think it is better also to have small panels, i don't know why, it just seems to me correct. BASS TRAPS: i was thinking of Super-chunk bass traps. The height is 2.05m. Instead of trapping the whole corner i thought to make 2 bass traps 95cm tall each one and leave a 15cm gap in between them for lamp installation. Is it ok to do so? Will this gap affect my bass trapping efficiency? I found today beside garbage, plies of melamine wood from closets. Freshly thrown away and in good condition. I took some pieces to make triangulated cover and base of the Super-chunk bass traps. I think i saved lots of €€€.

It is pretty logical. He presented me an "experiment" today. He started producing signals in certain frequencies and he told me to move around the room, stoop and stand up in different areas etc. With this experiment, what he explained me had to do with the "static acoustic waves", i don't know if this is the correct term in English,

Exactly. In English, those are called "standing waves" or "modes", and they are a direct result of the dimensions of the room. Certain frequencies, where the wave fits in perfectly between two walls, or four walls, or all six walls, will set up pressure conditions in the room where the tone will not be heard at all at some locations, and heard twice as loud at other locations. The dimensions of the room determine what those frequencies will be, and how they will be arranged across the spectrum. That's why I originally asked you if you could change the dimensions a bit, to get a more even spread of those waves. But you said that it wasn't possible to do that. Since we are talking about room size, what are the final dimensions of your room, now that the inner leaf is completed? Since the room is empty right now, with no treatment, it is the perfect time to measure the room accurately, and post the dimensions here. Based on that we can predict what some of the problems will be, and confirm the prediction with the measurements that your friend will make.

but now i understand why i can't hear my bass drums clearly when i play.

Yup. Either your kick drum or your ears are located in a null for one of the important fundamentals of the note that it is tuned to. And since these are very low frequencies, with very long wavelengths, moving your drum kit and seat around is probably not going to help much. You have to damp those modes heavily, in order to start hearing your kick again.

I know it is early now to talk about the treatment of the room since we do not have a proper mic, calibrated software etc,

Well, we can still give you a general idea of what to do, since this is a small room, and it will have the same general problems that all small rooms have. The measurements will help to pinpoint specific frequencies that might need special treatment, but what you will need without any doubt, is a LOT of bass trapping in that room. Very deep, very large bass traps.

PANELS: I already have wood-bars 60cm long and i have enough to make 16 small panels 60x60cm. All panels i have seen so far are not that small, they are 1.20mx0.60m.

What type of panel are you talking about here? There are many devices in acoustics that can be called "panels", so maybe you could be more specific? Are you talking about panel traps (also called "membrane traps")? Are you talking about absorption panels? Are you talking about diffuser panels? If you don't know the word in English, then maybe you can post some photos of the type of panel you have in mind.

I assume small panels would not be a problem since we are also talking about a small room. I think it is better also to have small panels, i don't know why, it just seems to me correct.

Actually, it's the other way around. Small rooms need LOTS of treatment, and LARGE treatment. The smaller the room, the more treatment it needs.

BASS TRAPS: i was thinking of Super-chunk bass traps. The height is 2.05m. Instead of trapping the whole corner i thought to make 2 bass traps 95cm tall each one and leave a 15cm gap in between them for lamp installation. Is it ok to do so? Will this gap affect my bass trapping efficiency?

You could do that, yes. No problem. But then your lamps would be half way up the wall, only about 1 m above the floor! That's a strange place to put lights... There's no acoustic problem with that, but it might not be fun to have the lights shining directly in your eyes while you are sitting down, playing your drums. Maybe a better option would be to put some light rails on the ceiling, above the drums, and put a few adjustable lights in there, so you can direct them where you need them most?

I found today beside garbage, plies of melamine wood from closets. Freshly thrown away and in good condition. I took some pieces to make triangulated cover and base of the Super-chunk bass traps.

Are you talking about putting the melamine across the front of your superchunks? If so, I'd wait a bit before doing that: you might need it, or you might not. Once the superchunks and all the other treatment is in place, then you can get your friend to test the room again, and see if you need it. What type of absorption can you get in Greece? Can you get Owens Corning 703? If so, then that would be great: buy lots of it! If not, then can you get some other type of semi-rigid fiberglass or mineral wool panels, similar to 703? - Stuart -