Hi all.
First post here but I have done a lot of reading and thank everyone for the valuable info I have read.
Here is my situation and I am desperate for some advice in a hurry.
I am moving house/studio in a month and have to soundproof the garage I will be moving into. The landlord is worried about the neighbors. There are various problems involved of course. I have no experience with building techniques and will hire a contractor to help with this build. I am trying to get it done for around 3k. Crazy, I know but it doesn’t have to be absolutely perfectly soundproof. I will do very little recording in the room. Usually one instrument at a time and vocals. I do a lot of composing and producing across all styles.
First, a little info about the space…
The garage is 19.3 feet by 17.6 feet. There is no ceiling (it’s vaulted roof) but the height to the beams in the roof is 8.3 feet. There is a large built-in workbench in one corner and a large built-in shelf suspended about 5 feet up along 60% of the back wall (not the wall facing a neighbor). The garage door is a single garage size with a normal door next to it. The door is being replaced with a fiberglass door (is this a good option or should I buy a wood door for them to use?). The walls are exposed wood studs right now with about 14.5inches between them.
It will be just one room, no vocal booth yet. When I record bands or ensembles I usually got to a commercial studio.
For the walls I have come up with some options and need help deciding based on cost vs how soundproof it will be. I have no reference of what any STC number actually sounds like so I can’t decide based on the STC ratings of the different options. One neighbor is really close and the neighbor I am worried about is pretty far from the wall facing them.
My options as I see it are…
1. Mineral wool, Isotrax, double layer of drywall with GreenGlue in between the layers.
2. Mineral wool, Isotrax, single layer of drywall.
3. Mineral wool, Isotrax, double layer of drywall, NO GreenGlue
4. Mineral wool, NO Isotrax, double layer of drywall with GreenGlue.
I need the cheapest option with the best results of course but I don’t know how much of a difference each extra step makes and so need some advice on that. Perhaps the walls that have no-one near them need a little less soundproofing?
I am also using very heavy duty theatre curtains on three walls.
My next major issue is the wall with the garage door and access door. I plan to seal the garage door top and bottom and sides with acoustic sealant and use mineral wool and drywall on the spaces around the door. I will buy a door soundproofing kit (MLV and some seals etc) for the access door. What is the next step in soundproofing the garage door? I don’t think it can support a lot of weight if I were to drywall it. Would I have to frame up another wall in front of it?
Lastly, I can't do any major construction in the roof. I plan to simply get the heaviest boards/drywall up there as a fake ceiling and drape material between the beams. Sound crazy but it's what I have now and it works great aesthetically. Not sure how much it does for soundproofing. Am I wasting my time doing these walls and then not much with the roof?
There will probably be many more questions to come and I appreciate all and any help with this matter. I don’t have a lot of time nor a lot of funds and I need to have the studio built before the move as I have a lot of work with deadlines.
Thanks so much and looking forward to hearing from anyone! :D
New Construction in a 2 car garage. Need advice desperately!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 16803.
Hi Mira Music. Please check the rules for posting: there is one you are missing! :)
But here are some brief comments:
I'm just "splitting hairs" here, but "soundproofing" isn't the correct term. Soundproofing is a myth: impossible to achieve. All you can do is to isolate something to one degree or another, but you cannot "proof" a room against sound. Any sufficiently loud sound will get through any conceivable structure built by man. so the issue is to decide how much isolation you need. To do that, you need a sound level meter, and to take some real measurements, and put real numbers on them.have to soundproof the garage
Look for one who already has experience building studios! If not, then you'll waste a huge amount of time trying to educate him on how to do it right, and checking on him to make sure that he's using the techniques for studios, and not the normal techniques for houses, offices, shops.... Big difference. If he does it wrong, you will have wasted your money. When choosing the builder, ask simple questions that only someone who really knows can answer, such as "how will you decouple the two leaves of my MSM wall". If he looks at you with a blank stare, then turn him around and send him on his way, and call up the next guy on your list....I have no experience with building techniques and will hire a contractor to help with this build.
Mass. That's the answer. The only way to isolate sound is to put very large amounts of mass in its way, with hermetic seals around the mass. So get the heaviest solid doors you can, and attach them in such a way that there are several layers of air-tight seals between the door and frame. The amount of mass and details of the seals will depend on the numbers you came up with, in Step One above: determining how much isolation you need.The door is being replaced with a fiberglass door (is this a good option or should I buy a wood door for them to use?).
With construction like that, you don't refer to the stud spacing by the gap between the studs, but rather by the distance between the center of one stud and the center of the next stud. In your case, you have 16" OC spacing. "OC" means "On Center".The walls are exposed wood studs right now with about 14.5inches between them.
In order of usefulness for isolation: 1, 3, (2, 4). In other words, 1 is the best, 3 comes next, followed by 2 and 4 together at the tail end. 2 and 4 are basically worthless, hardly better than ordinary wall construction. 4 is not decoupled, 2 has insufficient mass. But even better would be to forget the Isotrax, and build a separate stud frame for your new inner leaf. Much better decoupling.My options as I see it are… 1. Mineral wool, Isotrax, double layer of drywall with GreenGlue in between the layers. 2. Mineral wool, Isotrax, single layer of drywall. 3. Mineral wool, Isotrax, double layer of drywall, NO GreenGlue 4. Mineral wool, NO Isotrax, double layer of drywall with GreenGlue.
Nope. They all need the same, and so doe the ceiling, floor, doors, windows, HVAC system and electrical installation. Can you build an aquarium by only using glass on two sides, with cardboard, newspaper and carpet on the other sides? Obviously not. It won't hold water! The same with your room: sound is like water, and will take the easiest path out of the room. So the entire structure has to be isolated to the same level. The room is only as good as the weakest part. And once low-frequency sound is OUT of the room, it spreads uniformly in all directions. Low frequency sound is not directional.Perhaps the walls that have no-one near them need a little less soundproofing?
No use at all for isolation. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot stop sound with porous fabric, carpet or egg crates. Your curtains might be useful to a certain extent for treating the room acoustically after it is isolated, but no use at all for isolating. Think of it this way: like I said before, sound is like water. Your curtains are like a sponge. Can you "treat" spilled water by mopping it up with a sponge? Yup, you sure can! But can you stop water coming out the tap by putting a sponge across it? Nope, you sure can't! Same with sound. Isolation and treatment are two different things.I am also using very heavy duty theatre curtains on three walls.
What is the mineral wool for only in the spaces around the door? ? If the door is already sealed, then the entire air cavity between it and your inner leaf must be filled completely around with mineral wool, not just parts of it.I plan to seal the garage door top and bottom and sides with acoustic sealant and use mineral wool and drywall on the spaces around the door.
Forget it. Marketing hype. MLV is just mass. Very EXPENSIVE mass! Sound waves don't care how much you paid for the mass: all they do is react to the amount of mass that they encounter in their path. They cannot read, so price tags are meaningless to them. The only thing they care about is how much mass they bump into, and how well sealed it is, period. MLV has very few uses in acoustics, although it does have some, and "sealing up the garage door" is not one of those uses. You need mass, period, so get the cheapest mass you can. Ordinary drywall fills the bill nicely. So do thick plywood, OSB, MDF, bricks, concrete and suchlike.I will buy a door soundproofing kit (MLV and some seals etc) for the access door.
Back to basics: to isolate sound on a tight budget, you have to build a "room-in-a-room", more technically called MSM isolation. That basically means that you have to separate "leaves" of mass around you, separated by an air gap that is filled with mineral wool. That's what MSM means: Mass-Spring-Mass. The "spring" is the air trapped in the cavity between the two "leaves" of mass. Your existing garage structure is your outer leaf. It has to be made massive all around (walls, floor, ceiling, doors, windows), and it has to be airtight. The goal is to have roughly the same surface density all around. For example, when you do the math for figuring our your isolation, if you determine that you need a surface density of 24 kg/m2, then you need to make sure that every square meter of construction around the room weighs roughly 24 kilograms. The parts that don't have that much need to be beefed up. The parts that already have that much or more, are just fine, and need no further work. When you have the entire outer leaf up to that level, then you seal it airtight, and follow the same procedure for the inner leaf.What is the next step in soundproofing the garage door? I don’t think it can support a lot of weight if I were to drywall it.
Yes, that is the cheapest way to do your inner leaf: build a separate stud frame about an inch away from your outer leaf, put a couple of layers of 5/8 drywall on it, and mineral wool in the cavity between the two leaves.Would I have to frame up another wall in front of it?
How much dos it do? Not much. Nothing worthwhile, at least.Lastly, I can't do any major construction in the roof. I plan to simply get the heaviest boards/drywall up there as a fake ceiling and drape material between the beams. Sound crazy but it's what I have now and it works great aesthetically. Not sure how much it does for soundproofing.
In a single word? Yes. That would be a wast of time (not to mention money). IT would work exactly as well as building an aquarium where only the walls have glass in them, but the floor is made of carpet....Am I wasting my time doing these walls and then not much with the roof?
No problem! Questions are good, :) and you are in the right place to get the answers. The only problem is that I suspect you might not like the answers... the problem with the answers is that acoustics is a science, based on the real-world laws of physics. Those are cold, harsh, unfeeling laws, that don't give a damn about your budget or your need for speed. You cannot get around those laws. You cannot wish them away, try to make a deal with them, or hope that somehow your garage might be located in a space-time warp where the laws of physics don't apply. Unfortunately, the laws of physics apply everywhere in the known universe, including your garage, so the only way to get the results you want is to "follow the law" so to speak, meaning that you have to do it the way the laws of physics require, or it simply will not work. There are no magical materials (despite the hype you see in the advertising of some manufacturers of materials). There are no magical techniques (despite the myths that you see in so many places on the internet). There are only laws of physics and tried-and-tested methods for complying with them. You can either follow the laws and get results, or ignore the laws and waste your money.There will probably be many more questions to come ...
That's what this place is all about. Help for people needing to build studios in their homes.and I appreciate all and any help with this matter.
Sure! But please check the forum rules one more time, for that item you missed... :) - Stuart -Thanks so much and looking forward to hearing from anyone!
Thanks so much Soundman202!!
Oops, sorry. I think I got it!Hi Mira Music. Please check the rules for posting: there is one you are missing! :)
I have an SPL meter but cannot get into the new space with some speakers for a while. Does it make any sense to test where I am now which is almost identical to the state of the new space? Would it be worthwhile to at least see what SPL I work at now? I am assuming to do some testing I would need to play music at my level of listening then go out side and walk around the 4 walls and take measurements.so the issue is to decide how much isolation you need. To do that, you need a sound level meter, and to take some real measurements, and put real numbers on them.
Yes, I had one in mind. If not I will find one with some experience in studio building. Shouldn't be hard in LA.Look for one who already has experience building studios! If not, then you'll waste a huge amount of time trying to educate him on how to do it right, and checking on him to make sure that he's using the techniques for studios, and not the normal techniques for houses, offices, shops.... Big difference. If he does it wrong, you will have wasted your money. When choosing the builder, ask simple questions that only someone who really knows can answer, such as "how will you decouple the two leaves of my MSM wall". If he looks at you with a blank stare, then turn him around and send him on his way, and call up the next guy on your list....
I'm on my way to Anawalt Lumber this morning to get the heaviest door I can.Mass. That's the answer. The only way to isolate sound is to put very large amounts of mass in its way, with hermetic seals around the mass. So get the heaviest solid doors you can, and attach them in such a way that there are several layers of air-tight seals between the door and frame. The amount of mass and details of the seals will depend on the numbers you came up with, in Step One above: determining how much isolation you need.The door is being replaced with a fiberglass door (is this a good option or should I buy a wood door for them to use?).
Thanks for that. Wasn't sure what OC meant.With construction like that, you don't refer to the stud spacing by the gap between the studs, but rather by the distance between the center of one stud and the center of the next stud. In your case, you have 16" OC spacing. "OC" means "On Center".The walls are exposed wood studs right now with about 14.5inches between them.
OK, that's what I thought.In order of usefulness for isolation: 1, 3, (2, 4). In other words, 1 is the best, 3 comes next, followed by 2 and 4 together at the tail end. 2 and 4 are basically worthless, hardly better than ordinary wall construction. 4 is not decoupled, 2 has insufficient mass.My options as I see it are… 1. Mineral wool, Isotrax, double layer of drywall with GreenGlue in between the layers. 2. Mineral wool, Isotrax, single layer of drywall. 3. Mineral wool, Isotrax, double layer of drywall, NO GreenGlue 4. Mineral wool, NO Isotrax, double layer of drywall with GreenGlue.
I doubt I could do this. Budget and time wouldn't allow.But even better would be to forget the Isotrax, and build a separate stud frame for your new inner leaf. Much better decoupling.
I will have to attempt this. The built in workbench and shelves make this almost impossible but I do understand that low frequencies are not dirctional.Nope. They all need the same, and so doe the ceiling, floor, doors, windows, HVAC system and electrical installation. Can you build an aquarium by only using glass on two sides, with cardboard, newspaper and carpet on the other sides? Obviously not. It won't hold water! The same with your room: sound is like water, and will take the easiest path out of the room. So the entire structure has to be isolated to the same level. The room is only as good as the weakest part. And once low-frequency sound is OUT of the room, it spreads uniformly in all directions. Low frequency sound is not directional.Perhaps the walls that have no-one near them need a little less soundproofing?
Got it. They re mainly for treatment and aesthetics.No use at all for isolation. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot stop sound with porous fabric, carpet or egg crates. Your curtains might be useful to a certain extent for treating the room acoustically after it is isolated, but no use at all for isolating. Think of it this way: like I said before, sound is like water. Your curtains are like a sponge. Can you "treat" spilled water by mopping it up with a sponge? Yup, you sure can! But can you stop water coming out the tap by putting a sponge across it? Nope, you sure can't! Same with sound. Isolation and treatment are two different things.I am also using very heavy duty theatre curtains on three walls.
The aprts around the door are in the same state as the rest of the walls. Only an outer leaf and exposed studs. They will get the same mineral wool between the studs and drywall sandwich as the rest of the walls. Check the pictures to follow..What is the mineral wool for only in the spaces around the door? ? If the door is already sealed, then the entire air cavity between it and your inner leaf must be filled completely around with mineral wool, not just parts of it.I plan to seal the garage door top and bottom and sides with acoustic sealant and use mineral wool and drywall on the spaces around the door.
Got it. Thanks.Forget it. Marketing hype. MLV is just mass. Very EXPENSIVE mass! Sound waves don't care how much you paid for the mass: all they do is react to the amount of mass that they encounter in their path. They cannot read, so price tags are meaningless to them. The only thing they care about is how much mass they bump into, and how well sealed it is, period. MLV has very few uses in acoustics, although it does have some, and "sealing up the garage door" is not one of those uses. You need mass, period, so get the cheapest mass you can. Ordinary drywall fills the bill nicely. So do thick plywood, OSB, MDF, bricks, concrete and suchlike.I will buy a door soundproofing kit (MLV and some seals etc) for the access door.
Ok I understand this but due to various reasons I can't completely seal it airtight nor completely build a room within a room. I am trying to do the best with what I have.Back to basics: to isolate sound on a tight budget, you have to build a "room-in-a-room", more technically called MSM isolation. That basically means that you have to separate "leaves" of mass around you, separated by an air gap that is filled with mineral wool. That's what MSM means: Mass-Spring-Mass. The "spring" is the air trapped in the cavity between the two "leaves" of mass. Your existing garage structure is your outer leaf. It has to be made massive all around (walls, floor, ceiling, doors, windows), and it has to be airtight. The goal is to have roughly the same surface density all around. For example, when you do the math for figuring our your isolation, if you determine that you need a surface density of 24 kg/m2, then you need to make sure that every square meter of construction around the room weighs roughly 24 kilograms. The parts that don't have that much need to be beefed up. The parts that already have that much or more, are just fine, and need no further work. When you have the entire outer leaf up to that level, then you seal it airtight, and follow the same procedure for the inner leaf.What is the next step in soundproofing the garage door? I don’t think it can support a lot of weight if I were to drywall it.
Do you think this would be cheaper than the Isotrax and GreenGlue route? If so I could probably do it in front of the garage door.Yes, that is the cheapest way to do your inner leaf: build a separate stud frame about an inch away from your outer leaf, put a couple of layers of 5/8 drywall on it, and mineral wool in the cavity between the two leaves.Would I have to frame up another wall in front of it?
How much dos it do? Not much. Nothing worthwhile, at least.Lastly, I can't do any major construction in the roof. I plan to simply get the heaviest boards/drywall up there as a fake ceiling and drape material between the beams. Sound crazy but it's what I have now and it works great aesthetically. Not sure how much it does for soundproofing.
No choice here. I can't leave the walls as they are and there is only so much I can do to the roof. Even if it's 5% quieter that will have to do.In a single word? Yes. That would be a wast of time (not to mention money). IT would work exactly as well as building an aquarium where only the walls have glass in them, but the floor is made of carpet....Am I wasting my time doing these walls and then not much with the roof?
Let me reply by saying this. I understand that it is a science and all about physics and budget means nothing to either of those. I also understand how irritating it must be to the scientists when they hear things like what I am trying to do. It's like when a client says to me " We need it to sound like Radiohead. Here's $750 and we need it by tomorrow." It annoys me that they ignore the science and art of what we do. However my situation exists and I have to deal with it the best I can. I can't think about it as an all or nothing enterprise. What I am trying to find out is how to deal with it as best i can given the circumstances. If I owned the property I could do all these things without issue and really science it up if you know what I mean. I know it's annoying for professionals to give advice on cutting corners but I beg your indulgence. I will try my best to get the technical side of things right for my posts but I must confess to being terrible at any kind of maths even with calculators! I will do some testing today with my SPL and post what I find. I will shortly post what pics I have although it's difficult to see clearly as there is so much junk in the space at the moment. Again, thank you profusely for the help. -A - Stuart -[/quote]No problem! Questions are good, :) and you are in the right place to get the answers. The only problem is that I suspect you might not like the answers... the problem with the answers is that acoustics is a science, based on the real-world laws of physics. Those are cold, harsh, unfeeling laws, that don't give a damn about your budget or your need for speed. You cannot get around those laws. You cannot wish them away, try to make a deal with them, or hope that somehow your garage might be located in a space-time warp where the laws of physics don't apply. Unfortunately, the laws of physics apply everywhere in the known universe, including your garage, so the only way to get the results you want is to "follow the law" so to speak, meaning that you have to do it the way the laws of physics require, or it simply will not work. There are no magical materials (despite the hype you see in the advertising of some manufacturers of materials). There are no magical techniques (despite the myths that you see in so many places on the internet). There are only laws of physics and tried-and-tested methods for complying with them. You can either follow the laws and get results, or ignore the laws and waste your money.There will probably be many more questions to come ...
Hope this helps.
Yup! That was it!!! :yahoo:I think I got it!
Yes and no: it would be good to know what levels you have INSIDE your current room, not so much outside. The only useful outside measurements are those from the new location. But the inside ones are useful, to get a basic idea of what kind of levels we are dealing with: Think of the noisiest day ever in your current studio, and try to reproduce that, then measure how loud it is.Would it be worthwhile to at least see what SPL I work at now? I am assuming to do some testing I would need to play music at my level of listening then go out side and walk around the 4 walls and take measurements.
Don't make the mistake of making that decision now! First MEASURE how much isolation you REALLY need, then look at your options for getting it. In other words, once you know how much isolation you require (real-world numbers, not guesses) then you can look at the various types of construction that will give you that level. Then talk to your builder about which of the options is cheaper. Right now you are going about things "bass ackwards": deciding on a type of construction without knowing if it will do what you need or not. Not the best way of doing things. Start by defining your goal, then decide how to get there.I doubt I could do this. Budget and time wouldn't allow.
Well, sorry to be bluntly harsh, but if you cannot seal it then you cannot isolate it. Period. It is that simple. If you don't believe me, try this: Next time you are driving in your car and you hear another car close by, populated by one of those typical guys whose car sound system has more power than he has brain power, pull up nearby and close your car windows. Listen carefully. Now open one window just a tiny bit, and listen again. Notice the huge difference in level? That's the difference between "sealed" and "unsealed". The "unsealed" level is all that you will get in your studio if you do not seal. Plan hard laws of physics. In other words, you HAVE to seal. You don't have any choice in the matter. Either you seal both leaves airtight, or don't bother building anything at all: you will just waste your time and money. You can't wish your way around the laws of physics.Ok I understand this but due to various reasons I can't completely seal it airtight ...
But that's what you were planning to do, with your Isotrax clips! It works on the same basic principle... If you do it right with those, then you have, indeed, built a "room in a room", perhaps without even knowing it...... nor completely build a room within a room.
Both Isotrax and GG are expensive: plain old 2x4 studs are much cheaper. And once again, isolation is an "all or nothing" proposition. You have to decouple all six sides of the room equally (4 walls, floor, ceiling), or you might as well not bother. Just doing something in front of the garage door is like trying to build an aquarium with only one piece of glass, just on the front...Do you think this would be cheaper than the Isotrax and GreenGlue route? If so I could probably do it in front of the garage door.
5% quieter is way less than 1 dB. You will not even notice that. Most people can barely notice a difference of 3 dB, which is a 200% difference. People can notice a 6 dB change, which is a difference of about 400%. People say that the level changed by about half when there is a difference of 10 dB, which is roughly 1000% change in power. A good studio basic wall isolates to a level of around 50 dB, which is a change in power of roughly 10,000,000% (yes, you read it right: ten million percent). Are you getting the picture? No, I'm not inventing those numbers: those are the cold, hard facts of acoustics. 5% isn't even enough to be considered a drop in the ocean. The laws of physics are a real bitch, but you cannot hope they will somehow go away.No choice here. I can't leave the walls as they are and there is only so much I can do to the roof. Even if it's 5% quieter that will have to do.
The good news is that folks here certainly don't mind giving advice on how to cut corners! The bad news is that there are no corners to cut... Yeah, I know that sounds harsh and unfriendly and not nice and certainly not what you wanted to hear, but facts are facts: you CANNOT isolate a room unless you do all sides of it. Period. There just is no way around that, period. Not by cutting corners, not by wishing, not by magical incantations or even slaughtered firstborn! Nothing. There just is no way. You are saying "Please show me how to cut corners so that fire stops being hot.". Ummmm.... sorry, it just cannot be done, no matter how many corners you cut. to stop the fire being hot, you have to either move away, or put proper insulation in between you and it, but you say that you cannot do any of those, so unfortunately the fire is just going to remain hot. You want is to say "Psst! There's a hidden secret that turns fire cold!!" Sorry, but there just isn't.I know it's annoying for professionals to give advice on cutting corners but I beg your indulgence.
Great! Now we can see. You have a basic outer leaf there, which I'll bet is probably giving you maybe 20-something dB of isolation. You have a concrete floor, which is great for isolation. Nothing extra required for the floor, so one side is taken care of, five to go. Why can’t you just put up a bunch of 2x4’s and put drywall on one side of them? Cheap, fast effective. Failing that: next best is your Isotrax system, with drywall on it. Most likely more expensive than 2x4’s, but if that’s what you want, you can do that, for two of the walls. The other two are tougher to do that way… About the roof: You say that you can hand “heavy boards and drywall” up there, so I don’t see why you cannot create a proper MSM structure. If you have already checked and have the structural integrity to hang heavy boards and drapes, then why is it not possible to create a proper leaf? To me, it seems that you do have the space and the structure to do it right, so I guess I’m just not understanding what it is that prevents you from doing so... Take a look at jimmyjams build thread: His situation is very similar to yours, and he seems to be doing it right. If he can, then you can. - Stuart -I will shortly post what pics I have
Stuart,
Thanks so much for the replies. I get it. I have decided to do the room within a room. This morning I posted an ad on Craigslist looking for contractors with experience in building home studios and experience in dealing with isolation. Needless to say, this being LA, I have been inundated with replies!! Everything from carpenters to guys who have built most of the studios in LA.! LOL!
So I have been "interviewing" a few and will select one by tomorrow I think.
My next plan is to design something that will work within the constraints the landlord has stipulated i.e. I can't remove the built in shelves and workbench. One contractor I spoke to said we could build around those.
A little info about my goals now.
I need a small room to write and mix in. I do very little recording of large ensembles and when I do vocals I do them in the room. I record cello a lot and occasionally I have a couple of horn players in. I do not need any kind of isobooth. I have a beautiful 1903 Bechstein Upright Piano that will need to be in the room too. The garage I have been working in for the past 3 years is acoustically quite a dead space. I have carpet on the cement floor and very heavy theatre curtains creating 3 of the walls. The 4th wall behind the monitors has a large window which i covered with a sheet of perspex and then I carpeted the exposed studs around the window on the rest of the wall. I know this is not a tuned room but it has worked very successfully for me. So what I am saying is that when building the new space I will need a simple design to help with interior acoustics but i don't feel the need to build resonators etc. I have become very good at "learning" a room and having mixes translate well to the outside world (tv, film, and some remixes which have been on the radio). Stuart I can hear your head exploding when I say I don't need a tuned room!!! :P
My next step is to try and create a plan of the existing garage using my neanderthal drawing skills and post it here to perhaps get some design advice from people here which I will then give to my contractor. I will continue to post as much as I can and so share anything I learn during this process.
Thanks again to all and sundry who chip in with this design/build.
Great! This is good news! :yahoo:
Get references before you choose! Call a couple of owners, to make sure the guy really DID build their studio, and of course ask if he is happy with the way it was done.So I have been "interviewing" a few and will select one by tomorrow I think.
Should be do-able. Might end up with a strange shape, but if that's your limitation, then that's what it is.My next plan is to design something that will work within the constraints the landlord has stipulated i.e. I can't remove the built in shelves and workbench. One contractor I spoke to said we could build around those.
:shock: :!: 8) :roll: :cop: :cen: :blah: Ummm.... 'kay.... I think we should be able to do a bit better than THAT acoustically this time! :) Let me guess: you spent a lot of time eq'ing your mixes, to try to get the room sound out of them, especially that underlying hint of "honky-boomy" thing, hidden in the deathly deadness.... This new room can be made rather better, I think! And you are in the right place here to learn how to do it right!The garage I have been working in for the past 3 years is acoustically quite a dead space. I have carpet on the cement floor and very heavy theatre curtains creating 3 of the walls. The 4th wall behind the monitors has a large window which i covered with a sheet of perspex and then I carpeted the exposed studs around the window on the rest of the wall.
Simple designs are best, IMHO, and resonators most likely won't be necessary, unless there is a ,ajor problem with the design or construction.I will need a simple design to help with interior acoustics but i don't feel the need to build resonators etc.
BOOM! :wink: Actually, I think a "neutral" room is better than a "tuned" room. But "boom" anyway! :)Stuart I can hear your head exploding when I say I don't need a tuned room!!! :P
Read my lips: SKETCHUP. FREE. FROM GOOGLE. DOWNLOAD. :) First you'll hate it for a few hours, then things will click and you'll love it....My next step is to try and create a plan of the existing garage using my neanderthal drawing skills
That's what we are here for! :) - Stuart -perhaps get some design advice from people here
LOL! Thanks Stuart for your always entertaining replies!
So I sketchupped a VERY BASIC diagram of where things are in the room. Unfortunately I do not have the dimensions of the garage door or the built-ins and the landlord is away till Thursday so I will probably be able to get them on Friday. But at least people can see what I have to work with. You can also see in the pictures I posted roughly how big the built-ins are.
I do not know if it's better to build around them or just lose that space and make the room a bit smaller. I know I need to angle the walls slightly so perhaps that can be used in the design to get around the built-ins.
The closest neighbor is on the north side of the building. I had the idea to first drywall the actual garage building itself and then build the room within a room.
More to come...
bad idea! That would make a three-leaf system, which means the isolation in the lower end of the spectrum would be worse. It doesn't sound intuitive, since it seems logical that putting an extra layer of mass in the middle of the wall just HAS to improve the isolation, but in reality you are playing with a tuned filter (the MSM wall), and putting more drywall inside it happens to re-tune it to a HIGHER frequency, which is a bad idea. However, adding mass to the existing outer leaf (your current garage wall) is a good idea, and well worth doing. Search the forum for something like "beefing up the outer leaf", and you should find examples of how to do that. Basically, just cut drywall strips to fit in between the studs, up tight against the existing outer leaf. Hold in place with cleats, and seal with caulk. Rinse. Repeat. (in other words, add more layers the same way if you need more isolation.) - Stuart -I had the idea to first drywall the actual garage building itself and then build the room within a room.
Great! Thanks Stuart!
Can anyone point me to the correct information on how to measure how many db of damping I need and then how to take that number and build accordingly?
This is quite a nerve-wracking experience! Exciting too I guess!
The procedure has been explained several times here on the forum, in different ways for different people. Maybe you could try searching the forum, and see if you can find one of those.
- Stuart -
Hey Stuart, I have searched for ages but can't seem to find it. I have Rod's book so maybe it is in there? In other news the search for a contractor continues and I have a few bids on the way by people with specific experience in this type of construction. I am still figuring out sketchup and will post a further design idea in a few minutes. I am thinking of a staggered stud construction for the walls filled with Roxul AFB. One layer of 5/8 drywall on the outside and 2 layers on the inside. I am very unclear about the ceiling though. The lowest existing beam on the garage comes down to about 8'3". Does one construct the ceiling the same way as the walls? I am also trying to figure out how to implement my Portable AC unit without jeopardizing the isolation properties too much. I can't but a new unit unfortunately so I have to use what I have. Onwards and upwards! -AThe procedure has been explained several times here on the forum, in different ways for different people. Maybe you could try searching the forum, and see if you can find one of those. - Stuart -
Here is the rough idea.
The furniture and piano dimensions are to scale...well...sometimes sketchup won't let me get the exact dimension!! But they are very very close.
I have not figured out room modes yet and to be honest I as I do not have exact dimensions of the space available after I deduct the space taken up by the built-ins in the garage. So this diagram is a jumping off point and I hope to get some comments so I can keep moving and get something together to show the contractor.
I await comments!
Thanks.
Looks like a reasonable basic design. You could probably gain some more space by only splaying the front half of your side walls, and you really should consider soffit mounting your speakers: it makes a big difference. Well worthwhile.
The room is not rectangular, so you cannot do use the usual online calculators to do that. Figuring modes for non-rectangular rooms is pretty hard to do!I have not figured out room modes yet
You already HAVE an outside! It is the existing garage! :shock: so you don't need staggered studs: just build a simple 2x4 stud frame and put drywall on only ONE side of it: usually on the inside, facing the room, unless you are building "inside out", in which case you can put the drywall on the "outside" of the studs (facing the garage), and use the stud space inside the room for acoustic treatment...I am thinking of a staggered stud construction for the walls filled with Roxul AFB. One layer of 5/8 drywall on the outside and 2 layers on the inside.
You will only be in a position to decide how much goes where once you come up with your numbers! :)I am thinking of a staggered stud construction for the walls filled with Roxul AFB. One layer of 5/8 drywall on the outside and 2 layers on the inside.
Yup! Put joists across your new inner-leaf walls, and put drywall on those. Once again, on only ONE side: either above or below, not both. Above if you want an inside-out ceiling, below if not. - Stuart -Does one construct the ceiling the same way as the walls?
Would love to but at the moment my head is exploding with just figuring out how to build this thing! Would it be something I can do later?Looks like a reasonable basic design. You could probably gain some more space by only splaying the front half of your side walls, and you really should consider soffit mounting your speakers: it makes a big difference. Well worthwhile.
Hmm...so do I need to do it?The room is not rectangular, so you cannot do use the usual online calculators to do that. Figuring modes for non-rectangular rooms is pretty hard to do!
Now I'm REALLY confused!! Do I build a 2x4 stud frame and then do double layer drywall on the inside facing the room leaving the studs exposed on the outside? Do I then fill the space between the studs with roxul and leave it exposed?You already HAVE an outside! It is the existing garage! :shock: so you don't need staggered studs: just build a simple 2x4 stud frame and put drywall on only ONE side of it: usually on the inside, facing the room, unless you are building "inside out", in which case you can put the drywall on the "outside" of the studs (facing the garage), and use the stud space inside the room for acoustic treatment...
Ah...the all powerful numbers. Do you mean how many db of reduction I need? Still can't find the info but I am looking! :DYou will only be in a position to decide how much goes where once you come up with your numbers! :)
Perfect! One layer of drywall on the ceiling? Roxul on top between the joists?Yup! Put joists across your new inner-leaf walls, and put drywall on those. Once again, on only ONE side: either above or below, not both. Above if you want an inside-out ceiling, below if not.
You can do it later, yes, but you should at least account for it in your design. The entire room is a system, and soffit-mounting (or not) your speakers might affect other parts of your design.Would it be something I can do later?
Most likely not. :) Ain't it great that you finally found something that you might NOT need to do ??? :) Seriously modes are important, all rooms have them, and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them. The idea is to choose a room ratio where the modes are spread across the spectrum evenly, instead of being bunched up in groups. If you keep your dimensions from being multiples of each other, and don't build a sphere, then you are probably good to go. In other words, if your ceiling is 8 feet high, then don't build a room 8 feet wide by 16 feet long! That would place all your modes in the exact same place of the spectrum, making for a disaster. In that case, make it something like 9 feet wide and 15 feet long. Yes, there are some very good ratios that you can aim for, and some folks try to tweak the positions of there walls down to the last micron, hoping to get a "perfect" ratio, but that's just a wast of time. Stay away from bad ratios, get close to a good one, and that's it. The reason being: reality will screw you every time! :) Once the room is actually built, you will have to measure the response anyway, in order to decide on the treatment, and most likely the actual modes will not line up with the predicted modes, simply because reality is a bitch, and Murphy's law reigns supreme. So if you try to design treatment for specific "projected" modes up front, most likely that treatment will be wrong, because your real modes will be elsewhere. So just design in some basic broadband bass trapping, then measure the actual room response as soon as the inner leaf is in place, and only THEN decide on what additional measures you need to take for dealing with modes.Hmm...so do I need to do it?
Welcome to the club of Studio Builders! You have now passed the secret initiation ceremony, and are thoroughly qualified to continue.... :)Now I'm REALLY confused!!
Yup, that's about it. It won't look pretty from the garage side, but that shouldn't be an issue. If it IS an issue, then just cover the ugly roxul with some kind of pretty cloth (staple to studs, or make frames for it, or whatever).Do I build a 2x4 stud frame and then do double layer drywall on the inside facing the room leaving the studs exposed on the outside? Do I then fill the space between the studs with roxul and leave it exposed?
Yup! :) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16556&p=116890&hilit=and+measure#p116890 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15654&p=110876&hilit=and+measure#p110876 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14889&p=104988&hilit=and+measure#p104988 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14673&p=103258&hilit=and+measure#p103258 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14225&p=100329&hilit=and+measure#p100329 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14183&p=99364&hilit=and+measure#p99364Do you mean how many db of reduction I need?
Yup! But I'd change that to "at least one layer of drywall on the ceiling"... Also, you should decide if you are going to angle the ceiling, or at least the front half, to give you a proper RFZ. - Stuart -Perfect! One layer of drywall on the ceiling? Roxul on top between the joists?
OK, I'm a ways into Rod's book. Some of the questions I have asked have thus been answered.
To be continued.......
OK!!!
SO I have read Rod’s book and my brain is bleeding. :D
Now that that’s out of the way I think I am closer to a realistic design.
Tomorrow I plan to go to the house and do my measurements by taking my sub and nearfields and setting them up in the garage. I understand that once I have those numbers I can figure out how much isolation I need.
I have so many questions I don’t really know where to start so I’ll just list them and hope for the best.
I now plan to do a MAM construction ( thanks Stuart ) pretty much lain out like the design I posted. I am thinking the walls will be a 2x4 frame 16OC with drywall on the inside and roxul in between the studs on the back. The second M in MAM will be the garage wall itself.The walls will be angled as shown in the sketchup. I will slant the ceiling front to back and have a door in the south wall. The door will be solid without any hardware ( so no holes ). I will get one of those bottom of the door mechanical seals and seal around the jamb so it fits tight.
Based on this…..
1. Is there a GOLDEN angle to slant the ceiling and walls? I really need to make the best use of the space. I might also not be able to slant the ceiling too much as I would lose a lot of height at the front of the room and I’m not sure which existing beams would get in the way. Can I slant only the back? Not sure how this works.
2. Should I get some neoprene to put under the base plates of the 2x4 frame? How many db of isolation would that provide?
3. Does the structure get “attached” to the concrete slab somehow or does it just sit on top?
4. What is the rule for making/cutting a hole for electricity? I have my own 20amp breaker and plan to have a 4 outlet box installed on the front wall. I will seal around it and make sure it’s all airtitght.
5. Can anyone suggest a better design that might allow access to that hanging storage shelf at the back of the room? Without losing too much studio space of course!
One other major issue is the garage door. I have no idea what to do with it in terms of sealing and beefing up as an outer leaf. I have searched a bit and haven't found anything that looks like the same as my situation. Any thoughts?
These are just a few of the questions I have and I thank all for any input.
HVAC questions to follow in a moment.
Here is a rough sketch of the door and HVAC setup. Yes I know. It’s rough.
Does this seem workable for the portable AC unit I already own? Is this creating a giant flanking path that can’t be dealt with? That small vent in the corner of the garage exists already. I wouldn't have to cut one out.
I have looked at mini-split ductless units but I don’t know how much noise the external unit makes. If I have to have an external unit going all the time I think my neighbors might be just as upset as if I only had 6db of isolation! I also can’t cut a 3” hole in the garage door to get the lines out to the external unit.
Is there a better way?
Also, the only fresh air method I can think of without raising my costs substantially is to open the door every hour. Is there a simpler better method?
Thanks!’
-A
Just checking: you mean sloping UPWARDS, with the front being LOW and the rear being HIGH, correct?I will slant the ceiling front to back and have a door in the south wall.
You'll most likely need more than that! At least two separate seals, all around the door. Minimum.I will get one of those bottom of the door mechanical seals and seal around the jamb so it fits tight.
Lose the height at the FRONT of the room??? :shock: You seem to have ti backwards: the ceiling is LOWEST at the front (over the speakers), and from there it slopes upwards, to the highest point at the back.I might also not be able to slant the ceiling too much as I would lose a lot of height at the front of the room and I’m not sure which existing beams would get in the way. Can I slant only the back? Not sure how this works.
At least 12 degrees. If you don't have space to slope the entire ceiling, then at least do the front half at 12 degrees, and the rear half at whatever angle you can fit in, or even flat, if that's the best you can handle. But it must NOT slope down again.1. Is there a GOLDEN angle to slant the ceiling and walls? I really need to make the best use of the space.
For what purpose? If the idea is to seal the base plate to the floor, due to having a very uneven floor, then fine. But if you are trying to FLOAT your walls ... well, that's a very different thing, and very hard to do. It is similar to floating a floor, so read these, carefully: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf2. Should I get some neoprene to put under the base plates of the 2x4 frame? How many db of isolation would that provide?
Where I live, this is a major earthquake zone (we had an 8.8 last year :shock: ) so it is a requirement that walls must be firmly attached to floors; anchor bolts, "J" bolts, embedded threaded rod, or whatever, but very firmly tied down. We don't want our walls and floors going in different directions during a quake! You live in LA, according to your profile, so your situation is the same as mine: Most likely your local building code requires attachment, but even if it doesn't, you ARE in an earthquake zone, so I'd go ahead and bolt things down anyway (unless code specifically forbids it, for some strange reason...).3. Does the structure get “attached” to the concrete slab somehow or does it just sit on top?
Bring your main supply cable in through the conduit in the floor if you can (or another place if you can't), and then distribute INSIDE the room, using surface-mount channels sockets and switches. That gives you only one single small hole, which is easy to seal and beef up with putty packs. Also, with your electrical system, don't forget to do star grounding.4. What is the rule for making/cutting a hole for electricity? I have my own 20amp breaker and plan to have a 4 outlet box installed on the front wall. I will seal around it and make sure it’s all airtitght.
Best idea? Take the door off and brick up the opening. If you cannot do that for aesthetic reasons (code, wife, etc.), then bolt it in place and brick up behind it, just inside the garage. Or if brick is not your thing, build a stud frame just behind it and drywall the hell out of it! If you do the either of the latter two, you might want to put some kind of damping material in the gap between the door and the new wall, to stop it from vibrating. - Stuart -One other major issue is the garage door. I have no idea what to do with it in terms of sealing and beefing up as an outer leaf. I have searched a bit and haven't found anything that looks like the same as my situation. Any thoughts?
Boy is that ever going to be NOISYYYYYY!!!! Even the quiet portable units are still way too noisy for my liking in a CR. Personally, if that is going to be your approach, I'd build a small exchange chamber in your air gap somewhere, put the A/C unit in there, and put a couple of ducts from that room into the CR, with silencers in them.Does this seem workable for the portable AC unit I already own?
That's not a problem: just locate it far enough away from your CR that it doesn't matter.I have looked at mini-split ductless units but I don’t know how much noise the external unit makes.
Probably not: they aren't THAT noisy. I have two of them, and you can't even here them more than about 10 m away.If I have to have an external unit going all the time I think my neighbors might be just as upset
With a min-split, the hole is very small. It's just a couple of thin pipes to move the coolant in and out. About an inch or so should do it (depending on the system, of course).I also can’t cut a 3” hole in the garage door to get the lines out to the external unit.
Hold your breath? Stop breathing? :) Seriously, if you go with the exchange chamber idea, that's also easy to deal with: just put a couple of vents to the outside world in there, with fans on at least one of them, to move fresh air in and stale air out. With silencers, or course. "Opening the door every hour" is not a viable option. - Stuart -Also, the only fresh air method I can think of without raising my costs substantially is to open the door every hour. Is there a simpler better method?
Correct.Just checking: you mean sloping UPWARDS, with the front being LOW and the rear being HIGH, correct?
Right, ok. I will research online what that looks like and the materials involved.You'll most likely need more than that! At least two separate seals, all around the door. Minimum.
That's actually what I meant. I thought in order to clear the overhead existing beams I might need to make the FRONT of the ceiling ( over the speakers ) lower thereby losing height.Lose the height at the FRONT of the room??? :shock: You seem to have ti backwards: the ceiling is LOWEST at the front (over the speakers), and from there it slopes upwards, to the highest point at the back.
Genius! Ok, is that 12 degrees for the ceiling only? What about the walls?At least 12 degrees. If you don't have space to slope the entire ceiling, then at least do the front half at 12 degrees, and the rear half at whatever angle you can fit in, or even flat, if that's the best you can handle. But it must NOT slope down again.
Yes, I was thinking of better isolation by floating the walls. I'll have a look at these posts, thank you! The concrete floor is very even so no problems there.For what purpose? If the idea is to seal the base plate to the floor, due to having a very uneven floor, then fine. But if you are trying to FLOAT your walls ... well, that's a very different thing, and very hard to do. It is similar to floating a floor, so read these, carefully: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf
Does this not negate a lot of isolation? Flanking paths? Transference of sound to the concrete and beyond? I heard a lot about the quake. My mother was in Chile literally DAYS before. Hope you didn't have too much damage.?Where I live, this is a major earthquake zone (we had an 8.8 last year :shock: ) so it is a requirement that walls must be firmly attached to floors; anchor bolts, "J" bolts, embedded threaded rod, or whatever, but very firmly tied down. We don't want our walls and floors going in different directions during a quake! You live in LA, according to your profile, so your situation is the same as mine: Most likely your local building code requires attachment, but even if it doesn't, you ARE in an earthquake zone, so I'd go ahead and bolt things down anyway (unless code specifically forbids it, for some strange reason...).
Great! Thanks again!Bring your main supply cable in through the conduit in the floor if you can (or another place if you can't), and then distribute INSIDE the room, using surface-mount channels sockets and switches. That gives you only one single small hole, which is easy to seal and beef up with putty packs. Also, with your electrical system, don't forget to do star grounding.
$$$$$$ I just saw my budget fly out the window. Ok. I am thinking the stud wall with R-13 in the gap. I do not own the house. I am renting so I can't brick it up completely. Ay yay yay!Best idea? Take the door off and brick up the opening. If you cannot do that for aesthetic reasons (code, wife, etc.), then bolt it in place and brick up behind it, just inside the garage. Or if brick is not your thing, build a stud frame just behind it and drywall the hell out of it! If you do the either of the latter two, you might want to put some kind of damping material in the gap between the door and the new wall, to stop it from vibrating.
Yikes. Sounds expensive. Do you mean put the actual portable AC unit in the exchange chamber? Might be cheaper to buy a mini-split system at about $700Boy is that ever going to be NOISYYYYYY!!!! Even the quiet portable units are still way too noisy for my liking in a CR. Personally, if that is going to be your approach, I'd build a small exchange chamber in your air gap somewhere, put the A/C unit in there, and put a couple of ducts from that room into the CR, with silencers in them.
Good to know! It might make sense then to do it that way.Probably not: they aren't THAT noisy. I have two of them, and you can't even here them more than about 10 m away.
Actually now that I think about it there is a 1.5 inch hole above and to the left of the garage door that I was going to plug. I could use that I suppose.With a min-split, the hole is very small. It's just a couple of thin pipes to move the coolant in and out. About an inch or so should do it (depending on the system, of course).
:oops:Hold your breath? Stop breathing? :)
I guess I'd better research the exchange chamber. How do you not lose isolation with big vents cut in the wall?Seriously, if you go with the exchange chamber idea, that's also easy to deal with: just put a couple of vents to the outside world in there, with fans on at least one of them, to move fresh air in and stale air out. With silencers, or course.
:( Just when you think you are getting somewhere......... Can't thank you enough Stewart."Opening the door every hour" is not a viable option.
That's AT LEAST 12° for the ceiling, and AT LEAST 6° for each side wall: As far as I know, there's no equations or research to support those numbers, but there is plenty of empirical evidence. Depending on your final speaker geometry, you might need to go more than 6 and 12: For example, if your speaker axes end up intersecting at more than 60°, then you'd definitely need to increase those angles to still keep your RFZ.Genius! Ok, is that 12 degrees for the ceiling only? What about the walls?
Floating walls... big stuff you are talking about there: Lots of math coming your way! Basic idea: You have to build the walls to the correct weight so that whatever material you decide to put under it compresses to the correct degree in order to float. Put too much mass on your walls? You over-compress the rubber, and it flanks, meaning you wasted a lot of time and money. Put too little weight on your walls? You under-compress the rubber, and it flanks, meaning you wasted a lot of time and money. If I recall correctly, you need to load neoprene to something like 10% to 15% compression to get a good float (might be wrong on the numbers). So you need to figure the correct weight for each part of your wall so that all of the rubber under it compresses in the correct range. If one part of our wall happens to be heavier for some reason, and a small section of the rubber there flanks, then the entire wall flanks. Meaning you wasted a lot of time and money. Or if one part of the wall happens to be too light, then ... OK, you are getting the picture, I think. Not trying to scare you off! It can be done, but you need to do the math and build carefully, to ensure correct loading. Those two links I gave you tell you how to do it right.Yes, I was thinking of better isolation by floating the walls. I'll have a look at these posts, thank you! The concrete floor is very even so no problems there.
Yes and no. You are building on a concrete slab, correct? That's a lot of mass, right there. Underneath that slab is good old Mother Earth, right? That's a lot of damping, right there. And a bit more mass, too: An entire planet's worth of mass in fact, plus an entire planet's worth of damping. Hard to beat that! :) It will take quite a lot of airborne sound energy to get your slab vibrating, so that's unlikely to be an issue. The issue is more likely to be structure born and impact noise, which is why you want to keep things decoupled from your walls and floor. That's one reason why your speakers sit on top of massive stands and are decoupled from them, or are mounted in soffits from which they are decoupled. That's also the reason why people build drum risers and put their bass cabs on decoupling risers too. In other words, eliminate all the direct contact between vibration-making "things" and the structure of the room. If you only have airborne sound hitting the walls and floor, then there shouldn't be any real issue. The question is: what else is your slab connected to?Does this not negate a lot of isolation? Flanking paths? Transference of sound to the concrete and beyond?
Shake, rattle and roll! It was, shall we say, "interesting!" Not something I'd like to repeat. No real damage here at home, thank God: just some minor stuff, like bookshelves tipping over, and some glassware falling out of kitchen cabinets, but no structural damage (not even to things I designed and built myself, like my shed, office, bathroom, and garage/future studio, which I was rather pleased about!). It was magnitude 8.3 where I live, so that was some pretty major movement, but my younger daughter was on vacation just a few km away from the epicenter, where it was 8.8, followed by the tsunami a few hours later. Scary stuff. I drove down there a couple of days later to get her, and the devastation in some places was overwhelming. So I sure can appreciate just how much things move in a serious quake, and believe me, even if code did not require it here, I'd still bolt down my walls to my floors, regardless of any isolation penalty: I just don't like the idea of one wall sliding East as another slides South, while the floor goes down and the ceiling goes up.... No thanks: I want it all very firmly attached, so it all moves together. I saw some places down near the epicenter where different parts of buildings had moved in different directions, and the result was not pretty.I heard a lot about the quake. My mother was in Chile literally DAYS before. Hope you didn't have too much damage.
How much does a few sheets of drywall and some 2x4's cost? :) Even with a split system you STILL need ventilation in there: fresh air in, stale air out. (Or you can go without, and suffocate in comfort, at a nice cool temperature.... :) ). so you still need ducts, silencers, fans, vents. The same is true for your portable system: it cools the air, but does not replace the stale air with fresh. You still need ventilation.Yikes. Sounds expensive. Do you mean put the actual portable AC unit in the exchange chamber? Might be cheaper to buy a mini-split system at about $700
You put silencers on them!I guess I'd better research the exchange chamber. How do you not lose isolation with big vents cut in the wall?
hehehehe! Welcome to studio building! Rule #1: take the budget you first thought of, multiply by 5, and add a zero on the end. Maybe two zeros, just in case. That should just about cover it... ! :) - Stuart -Just when you think you are getting somewhere.........
Empirical evidence is good enough for me!That's AT LEAST 12° for the ceiling, and AT LEAST 6° for each side wall: As far as I know, there's no equations or research to support those numbers, but there is plenty of empirical evidence.
I will be in there tomorrow doing my final measuring and testing with the SPL meter. I will also search for more specific info on RFZ's.Depending on your final speaker geometry, you might need to go more than 6 and 12: For example, if your speaker axes end up intersecting at more than 60°, then you'd definitely need to increase those angles to still keep your RFZ.
I don't think this will be necessary. I am in fact building on a concrete slab.]Floating walls... big stuff you are talking about there.
The million dollar question. I will ask the landlord and see if he knows.The question is: what else is your slab connected to?
:shock: CRAZY, Stuart! Scary stuff. I have been in 2 in LA but they were not very big. Still it was enough for me to be seriously scared. I was on the 9th floor of a high rise when the last one happened and stuff was falling off the walls. Not pleasant!Shake, rattle and roll! It was, shall we say, "interesting!" Not something I'd like to repeat. No real damage here at home, thank God: just some minor stuff, like bookshelves tipping over, and some glassware falling out of kitchen cabinets, but no structural damage (not even to things I designed and built myself, like my shed, office, bathroom, and garage/future studio, which I was rather pleased about!). It was magnitude 8.3 where I live, so that was some pretty major movement, but my younger daughter was on vacation just a few km away from the epicenter, where it was 8.8, followed by the tsunami a few hours later. Scary stuff. I drove down there a couple of days later to get her, and the devastation in some places was overwhelming.
Yes, I will bolt em down!So I sure can appreciate just how much things move in a serious quake, and believe me, even if code did not require it here, I'd still bolt down my walls to my floors, regardless of any isolation penalty: I just don't like the idea of one wall sliding East as another slides South, while the floor goes down and the ceiling goes up.... No thanks: I want it all very firmly attached, so it all moves together. I saw some places down near the epicenter where different parts of buildings had moved in different directions, and the result was not pretty.
Wish it were that simple! I will still need fans, silencers, ducting and then I gotta pay someone to do it. It all adds up. Plus I don't think I have the space. There are 2 vents in the garage in 2 corners of adjacent walls. I am trying to figure out if I could use one to pull air in and the other to get it out. I will measure and photograph them tomorrow when I do my testing and I'll post the pics and questions. I would still need fans of some sort and I need to figure out what to actually put in the wall of the CR in terms of vents. Watch this space....How much does a few sheets of drywall and some 2x4's cost? :)
My wife said I just gotta open the door every hour and get air in there!! ;)Even with a split system you STILL need ventilation in there: fresh air in, stale air out. (Or you can go without, and suffocate in comfort, at a nice cool temperature.... :) ). so you still need ducts, silencers, fans, vents. The same is true for your portable system: it cools the air, but does not replace the stale air with fresh. You still need ventilation.
I guess I'd better research the exchange chamber. How do you not lose isolation with big vents cut in the wall?
So silencers are the things that stop sound transmission through vents?You put silencers on them!
Many a true word spoken in jest! Thanks again Stuart. I gotta send you a bottle of Tequila or something when this is all done! I'm serious!;) - Stuart -[/quote]hehehehe! Welcome to studio building! Rule #1: take the budget you first thought of, multiply by 5, and add a zero on the end. Maybe two zeros, just in case. That should just about cover it... ! :)