LET THE FUN BEGIN - NEW STUDIO CONSTRUCTION - EUROPE

Thank you Stuart. Hehe, I feel like a pink pong ball by reading different approach methods to the same thing. It's funny how some think to soffit mount can be even worse if using speakers who were not designed for this at first place. For example the Event Opal monitors, which I planned to use for soffit mount, have openings on the sides, and can't be mounted flat with the soffit panels. I feel I am back in the start again. Leaning more towards using both Nearfield monitors on heavy stands with soft absorption front wall behind them. I also read what Mr. Barefoot has to say:

I would urge you not to just take a speaker designed to be freestanding and soffit mount it. You need a low shelf filter specifically designed to compensate for the low/hi frequency power response mismatch. In any case, this will dramatically alter the monitor's translation characteristics. I used to be a proponent of soffit mounting because it has certain "theoretical" advantages. I've come to learn, however, that soffit mounted speakers are often not very effective in practice as everyday mixing and mastering tools. A small number of speakers designed specifically for soffit applications do work well, for reasons beyond the scope of a short post. But, whichever monitors you choose, I would recommend using them the way they were originally intended. Thomas

Here is the answer from the Event company as well.

Soffit mounting Opals is currently untested, they have been designed as freestanding speakers and as such I would not recommend it. Personally, I’ve seen more speaker systems wrecked with incorrectly designed soffit mounts and rooms..

I guess it will be cheaper and easier to make the room sound good without the soffit mounted monitors. Anyone agrees or disagrees? :horse:

No one wants to comment on my post above? :D Stuart, how should I make the sound level test? Looks like the device is at the customs now.

Well, Its just a matter of taste. Some people like soffit mounted spkrs, some dont. You have to take into account that whenever you soffit, you are marrying the speakers, or at least, if you want to change them, it will cost you a headache or two. I believe, that a good designed room, doesnt need soffit mounted speakers to get great mixes or good translation

Yeah, sounds more safe to just go with the stands. Thanks!

You can still have a couple of pairs in your studio. You can soffit a couple, and leave them for blasting your clients, and check your mixes on them as well. And you can also have another pair for critical listening and mixing on stands. If in a couple of years you feel like you start to fatigue or dislike this pair, you can always get a new one, and mantain your mounted spkrs for the same purpose. A lot of people soffit like JBL mains, those big far field ones. Most top engineers still use their ns10s on the SSL bridge so you go figure. Thats my advice, go both ways

I found the speakers which will blast the clients even if mounted on stands (Event Opal). Check them out if you can. Huge 3D sound, very powerful too. But I dig and appreciate your suggestion.

Yes - Sparky 1 (the container studio guy) has just added the event opals as reckons they kick A.

Got my new toy today, the sound pressure level meter :yahoo: How should I perform these tests? Should I just put the monitors in the studio area and crank them as loud as I would normally do when listening to the highest levels? Or better ask my friend to bring his Messa amp and cabinet to crank it like we normally do when recording guitars? What's the expected db level I should get from the sound source?

What is the test for? Sorry I have missed most of your thread

To check what is the spill through the outside walls and above to the living room. Based on these results we can figure out how these walls should be treated further. I already have a dual leaf type of external wall due to wooden skeleton house construction so Stuart proposed to decouple the inner side of those walls and move the vapour barrier ... hope it will not be necessary.

ok I see. So like you said, anything that makes noise will work, even a guitar cab cranked, or you screaming your lungs out lol The purpose is to see how much of ACTUAL isolation your current walls and ceilings are giving you. The difference in those numbers will be your TL. Also, do a test with pink noise so you can see how much low end is leaking to your house. What will be your new studio walls be made of? Drywall? So this test is to find out whether you use 2 or 3 layers? Or find out if you need to use something heavier?

OK, I'll move my monitors to the studio tomorrow evening and do some tests. The only problem is that I don't have any doors yet in the entrance to the control room from the hall way so there will be some leakage which should not be there after we put double door. I will have to improvize.

The test will be useless if you have no door Why don't you go with a proven plan/design? I dont think the 3rd leaf will be much of a problem if your new leaf is good enough and well built

How should I perform these tests? Should I just put the monitors in the studio area and crank them as loud as I would normally do when listening to the highest levels?

That's the basic idea, yes. But not the normal level: it should be the loudest level you ever expect to produce. There's two basic ways you can do this: one is with music, the other (more accurate) with full spectrum pink noise. Personally, I'd do the test twice, once with music (the loudest kind you usually mix) and once with pink noise. Pump each one out at the highest level you expect to ever produce in there. Or if you have no idea what that might be, then try 100 dB to start with. NOTE: Wear ear protection while you are in the room, especially if you use a level higher than over 100 dB! Do this test late at night when everyone is asleep, and the ambient level in your neighborhood is at its lowest. Set your meter to "C" weighting, slow response. Take all the readings with the meter held at chest height, well away from your body, and angled upwards so you can see the scale clearly. Now play pink noise (or music) through your system such that you get an average level of 100 dB on the meter while you are in the room (measure at least one meter away from teh speakers). Now go out of the room, close all doors and windows, and measure in several places, all around the rest of the building, both inside and out. Take many measurements, in many places, and note them all down on a piece of paper. Circle the highest reading. Now get someone to progressively turn down the volume inside the room (with you still outside) until you can no longer detect any pink noise at all, for ALL of those locations (use a cell phone or some such to let them know when to turn it down). In other words, they turn the level down a bit and you measure all locations, then they turn it down some more and you measure again. Note down the readings on the meter at all of the locations. When you get to the point where you cannot hear or detect the pink noise (or music) any more, at ANY of the locations, the you are done. Circle the LOWEST reading. (And as a matter of interest, take a final reading in the room, to see how low it had to get inside, for that lowest reading outside). So now you have a whole bunch of numbers, three of which are important. 1) The level inside the room with the system belting out full blast, 2) The highest level outside your room with the system belting out full blast 3) The target level for perfect isolation, with the system producing a low level. Subtract 2 from 1: This is how much isolation you have right now. Subtract 3 from 2: This is how much additional isolation you need, in order to keep the cops away from your front door. Easy! :) (Just tedious, and time-consuming) - Stuart -

Thank you Stuart! This is really detailed instruction. I'll get to it either tonight or tomorrow and report back :wink: One more thing. I have a highway nearby so there is always some noise outside the house which will be readable in the meter. Probably I will have to use my ear as well to determine the lowest 0 level coming through the outside walls, right? :roll:

One more thing. I have a highway nearby so there is always some noise outside the house which will be readable in the meter. Probably I will have to use my ear as well to determine the lowest 0 level coming through the outside walls, right?

Yup! That's why I suggested repeating the entire test with both pink noise and music: it isn't easy to pick out low-level pink noise above background ambient noise, since that can already be quite pink! But some thumping rock music should be easier to pick out over the ambient noise. And, of course, do the test at the time of night when traffic on that road is at its lowest level. I'm hoping that what you have already in terms of isolation will be pretty good. - Stuart -

I'm hoping that what you have already in terms of isolation will be pretty good.

That is my hope too :D Tomorrow night I will do the test also with Messa 4x12. Talk to you soon!

OK, we did the tests yesterday and I can say I am very pleased with the results, at least what I could judge with my ears. It was also hard to measure outside the house as the nearby highway made constant noise around 55-60db. We measured a blasting metal loop, pink noise and my friend playing guitar on the Messa amp. METAL LOOP - MEASURING OUTSIDE THE HOUSE 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 102 db 2) The highest level outside the house with the system belting out full blast = 65 db 3) The level outside the house with the system at minimum levels = 55 db 4) The level inside the studio with the system at minimum levels = 76 db Due to constant noise coming from the highway I used my ears to decide when the outside levels reached the minimum. PINK NOISE LOOP - MEASURING OUTSIDE THE HOUSE 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 100 db 2) The highest level outside the house with the system belting out full blast = 63 db 3) The level outside the house with the system at minimum levels = 55 db 4) The level inside the studio with the system at minimum levels = 74 db GUITAR - MEASURING OUTSIDE THE HOUSE 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 103 db 2) The highest level outside the house with the system belting out full blast = 66 db 3) The level outside the house with the system at minimum levels = 55 db 4) The level inside the studio with the system at minimum levels = 86 db ------------------------ The problem with the minimum levels was that even without any sound I could read around 45-50db in the living room above the studio, so again I judged more with my ears when we reached minimum levels. METAL LOOP - MEASURING INSIDE ABOVE THE STUDIO 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 102 db 2) The highest level in the living room with the system belting out full blast = 63 db 3) The level in the living room with the system at minimum levels = 45 db 4) The level inside the studio with the system at minimum levels = 76 db PINK NOISE LOOP - MEASURING INSIDE ABOVE THE STUDIO 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 100 db 2) The highest level in the living room with the system belting out full blast = 60 db 3) The level in the living room with the system at minimum levels = 45 db 4) The level inside the studio with the system at minimum levels = 74 db GUITAR - MEASURING INSIDE ABOVE THE STUDIO 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 103 db 2) The highest level in the living room with the system belting out full blast = 68 db 3) The level in the living room with the system at minimum levels = 45 db 4) The level inside the studio with the system at minimum levels = 86 db Have to run now :D

Bump. Stuart, anyone?

Unless you had a door installed in that room and did a consistent measure from specific places on both sides of the wall, those numbers are useless. "3) The level outside the house with the system at minimum levels = 55 db" This is a typical ambient noise level in a typical neighborhood...so it means nothing that can be evaluated. "PINK NOISE LOOP - MEASURING INSIDE ABOVE THE STUDIO 1) The level inside the studio with the system belting out full blast = 100 db 2) The highest level in the living room with the system belting out full blast = 60 db" A 40dB reduction is not as good as you might think, but I think that the lack of a door, a solid barrier to contain the sound within the confinements of the room in question, is making the levels read like your isolation is lacking...and it most likely is not. Like I mentioned when you guys were about to tear the house apart and rebuild it...get some real and accurate readings. At the end of the day, if you are hell bent on spending money on a house that was newly built in an attempt to get better isolation...it's your money. But the main rule is to get accurate readings to >avoid< throwing money away and to avoid wasting your time with what can turn into a fruitless endeavor for all parties involved. Brien

I am aware that the readings were not done in perfect condition. I did my best and stuffed the opening of the door with my rock wool absorbers and heavy panels from both side so the leakage was reduced significantly. I could not hear the sound coming up through the stairs so much, it was more through the floor. At the moment I am thinking to just build a typical room inside a room system for control room and recording room. Throw in nice tunable bass traps and some absorbers with a couple diffusers and forget about the whole measuring things. Can I get worse leakage by doing so? I really doubt.

Well, what it looks like to me from those readings is that you consistently get roughly 40 dB reduction currently to the outside world, and around 50 to the rest of the house. It also looks like you need another 10 to 20 dB of isolation above and beyond what you are getting currently, in order to get the levels below ambient. That should not be too hard to achieve. :) - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart, I am not so much into numbers so it's good to hear a confirmation of my own speculations and hunches :D I decided to make a wooden construction with 8cm of thickest rock wool, 22mm heavier particle board + local version of GG + 15mm drywall. I have no idea how much this will improve the isolation in numbers but I believe it will be enough to get where I want. My wife is already happy with current isolation and I don't have neighbours to close to my house 8) BTW, I have a question about my doors between the CR and LR. These doors will have a window in the upper half section of the door. What is the best way to do it? There is only 1°-1,5° space to angle one side of the glass. I guess this doesn't make any sense to make it angled. Will 2 x 1cm glass be enough? We can also take the air out in between.

+ local version of GG +

????? :shock: There is no substitute, as far as I know. What product are you talking about? Do you have a link? - Stuart -

I am still looking into all options. I have a friend here who made it with some local version of GG. As far as I can understand it's the right amount of the elasticity in between the two boards which improves the isolation. It may not be exactly the same as GG measured in dB but should help just fine. I know many think the GG is a holly grail but I come from a different planet :D