Hello,
I started a music lesson shop with my wife a few years ago. We are expanding and want to offer recording classes (at reasonable rates and providing realistic expectations to students! ...too many schools promising the world and asking for way too much money! I'll get off my soap box :wink: )
We have this new space we'd like to build a recording studio in. It will be built entirely by volunteers (the students) and will hopefully be an asset to our local arts community. One of our students is a carpenter but has no studio design experience. We have been going over plans on this website and he did some drawing in autocad for me. Could anyone give them a look over and see if we have an ok plan?
What can we do to improve our layout?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 14889.
Also, the notes.pdf document has some questions from the student who drew these plans up, if anyone has a second to take a look at them:
How will building and insulating a 2x6 floor on top of the slab help? Is it necessary?
Should we build bass traps into the framing or wait until the room is finished as designed?
If we want to build a storage closet in the large corner of the control room, can we get away with a hollow core door?
What is the best way to anchor a stud wall to a concrete block wall, while still maintaining a 1" air space?
How important is the use of RC channels to hold the drywall away from the studs?
If the purple lines are mass (sheetrock) then your drawing needs to be modified. You are looking to develop mass-spring-mass and this is achieved with one hard boundary an air space and another hard boundary.
The drawing suggests, especially in the corners, that you have the exterior of the existing building determined to be concrete, an air space (decoupling) and then you have framed up walls with the interior mass...but it goes on to include another framed wall on angle with mass.
You would install bass/broadband trapping here, but not another potential acoustical leaf as it now suggests.
Yes, the purple is sheetrock. Thanks for your post!
can you provide the raw space DWG/DXF file?
It is most often recommended not to. Reason being is that the mass of the concrete being damped by the Earth is always more substantial as a barrier to sound then the lighter weight materials that many, and I mean many, a person will think they need since they saw it on the Internet so it must be true ;)How will building and insulating a 2x6 floor on top of the slab help? Is it necessary?
Actual bass trapping is built into the framing of the room, but it requires about as much attention to detail as anything else. So often what folks here do, in smaller rooms with limited floor space, is to complete the isolation part of the build and install broad band, super chunk corner traps, and what ever the room might require, depending on what the room will be used for.Should we build bass traps into the framing or wait until the room is finished as designed?
Maybe so...everything matters.If we want to build a storage closet in the large corner of the control room, can we get away with a hollow core door?
The best way is to have an establish plan that can be submitted to your local building commission to establish if what you are attempting is code compliant. You can install resilient sway braces designed to eliminate most of the path that vibration moves along. Depending on what is acceptable in your area, we have seen a lot of builds get framed up on a per room basis and then install 5/8 inch OSB vertically on the interior side of the room to allow the framing to be self supporting. Your carpenter friend may have seen this used before, but his experience will be that it was on the exterior of the building. Same thing only different.What is the best way to anchor a stud wall to a concrete block wall, while still maintaining a 1" air space?
In effort to decouple/break the path that vibration moves on/ it is very important. But your actual building and what you can and cannot do will dictate if it is or is not required. If we can agree that mass/spring/mass is what is needed to attain the highest degree of isolation and you have a concrete wall and build an interior framed wall not attached to the concrete, then RC is not required. Reason being is that you already broke the path when you built the framed interior wall. Now if you lived in a framed house and could not for what ever reason build another interior framed wall then attaching the RC directly to the existing framed wall (after removing the existing interior sheathing) would be paramount to gaining the best isolation that you could.How important is the use of RC channels to hold the drywall away from the studs?
Here are some pictures of our space.
If Glenn has a few minutes to spare, he can draw something that would out do what ever I could spent the next few days trying to suggest. A picture being worth a thousand words....he's really good and freely gives of his vast and speedy talents.Thanks for the quick reply, Brien. I did the drawings and will be heading up the construction. So would you suggest removing the angled walls or the walls running parallel to the concrete block? I figured the symmetry of the control room was important, along with the lack of parallel walls in all 3 rooms.
Where is Saint Paul? I mean geographical speaking? Minnesota or some other Saint Paul...Here are some pictures of our space.
Yes, Minnesota.
let me play with this a bit since the air lock between the CR and live room is potentially sticky... it may be turning the CR on it's side and having the view glass on the side could be better. it might also free up some space in the "front" of the CR to be a machine room, storage closet, amp room, etc.
shown without treatment walls - isolation walls only.
FWIW We can also use the room to the right of the control room in the studio.pdf file as a booth. It's planned purpose right now is an office, but that can be changed if necessary.
shown with framing and treatment walls
or a small post production room...FWIW We can also use the room to the right of the control room in the studio.pdf file as a booth. It's planned purpose right now is an office, but that can be changed if necessary.
Looks great! Thank you!
BTW, We do have a couple of other rooms in our school that will be basic midi/over dub functions. The goal for this studio is to be flexible for tracking live ensembles of various sizes and styles.
How much more demoing are you guys considering? Seems like there are partial walls, coupled two sided partitions that could reduce your isolation between rooms. These pictures you uploaded show the details of the existing partitions that are in question. download/file.php?id=35230&t=1 download/file.php?id=35229&t=1Here are some pictures of our space.
I'm a bit late to the party, but whatever! Still got some comments that may or may not be useful:
Totally agree with Brien: You probably don't need it, it is hard to do right (not to mention expensive!), and it eats up precious room height. Concrete slab on grade is about the best you can get. Stick with that. Some folks here have even done some really artistic things to their slabs, like very creative staining that makes it look fantastic. But if you prefer the look of wood then simple laminate flooring will work fine too. So will hardwood. Choosing between those three (concrete, laminate, hardwood) is a question of budget and aesthetics, not so much acoustics. All three are good, acoustically.How will building and insulating a 2x6 floor on top of the slab help? Is it necessary?
Agreeing with Brien again: Build the isolation first, get that perfect, then worry about the acoustic treatment for the room. They are two totally different things anyway, so you might as well separate them.Should we build bass traps into the framing or wait until the room is finished as designed?
Perhaps, perhaps not... it all depends...If we want to build a storage closet in the large corner of the control room, can we get away with a hollow core door?
depends what else you are doing! If you are going to use separate stud frames for each leaf, then no, you do not need RC at all. You would only need it of you had no choice but to use existing stud walls that already have drywall on the other side. That doesn't seem to be your case. Your notes also mention that the HVAC is going to limit the ceiling height in places: but that does not mean that your ENTIRE ceiling has to come down to the lowest possible height: There might be ways of working around that... You also commented that your glass will be tilted, bottom to top. That isn't necessary acoustically, and in fact can WORSEN your isolation between rooms. You might want to do it to deal with glare form lighting, but it is counterproductive from the point of view of isolation. Like Brien said: this is one of those things that "must be right, because everyone saw it on the internet". Angled glass reduces isolation, it does not increase isolation. When you sat ' 1" air space between walls ', are you SURE you mean a one inch air space? Or are you confusing "air space" with "gap between stud frames"? Those are two entirely different things. The "air space" is the total distance between the two leaves inside the wall cavity, and this is partly filled (or better yet, totally filled) with insulation, such as mineral wool or fiberglass. The "gap between stud frames" is just that: the amount of space that you have between the frame for your inner leaf and the frame for your outer leaf. If you have a 1" gap between frames, then you most likely have about 8 inches of air gap, which is great. You do not ever want to have less than about 4" of air gap. In any event, from the photos you seem to have brick or concrete shell around you on several sides, so that is your outer leaf. You therefore need to leave at least 1" gap between that and the framing for your inner leaf, and you should really leave a much larger gap, if you can afford the space. But once again, it all depends on a number of things, starting with how much isolation you need, in terms of decibels... Regarding your layout: the most logical thing, to me, would be to reverse your rooms: put the control room in the place marked "live room", and vice versa. Is there any reason you can't do that? - Stuart -How important is the use of RC channels to hold the drywall away from the studs?
We can demo more if we need to. What do you advise? This is how the space looked when we signed the lease. It was an office space that was gutted to be turned into a kitchen for a restaurant (which fell through).How much more demoing are you guys considering? Seems like there are partial walls, coupled two sided partitions that could reduce your isolation between rooms. These pictures you uploaded show the details of the existing partitions that are in question. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/downl ... =35230&t=1 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/downl ... =35229&t=1Here are some pictures of our space.
Could you elaborate? Should we consider building a soffit? We don't have anyone above us. The AC and furnace are on the roof. The HVAC is independent for this part of the building.Your notes also mention that the HVAC is going to limit the ceiling height in places: but that does not mean that your ENTIRE ceiling has to come down to the lowest possible height: There might be ways of working around that...
We will need a pretty high level of isolation. I don't know an exact decibel or even have any idea how to calculate that. The tenant to west is a automotive repair shop. They will make a fair bit of noise. We have a fairly busy avenue to our south. The tenants on our north are some kind of pagan retail shop, so we will want to be pretty isolated so we don't disrupt their business (or they will cast spells on us). The east wall is shared with the rest of the music school, so isolation there is important to avoid hearing other music lessons in the studio for tracking.But once again, it all depends on a number of things, starting with how much isolation you need, in terms of decibels...
There is no reason we can't do that. That was my initial idea the moment I walked into the room... we have played with a lot of different layouts, but I can't seem to find one that is the clear winner. Thanks so much for the thoughts! This is very exciting, but there is a lot to consider. I will let Joel respond regarding the "air gaps". I am very grateful for everyone's ideas so far! -DaveRegarding your layout: the most logical thing, to me, would be to reverse your rooms: put the control room in the place marked "live room", and vice versa. Is there any reason you can't do that? - Stuart -
This is great, Glenn! Thank you for your efforts. Is that a sliding glass door from the booth to the studio area? We'd need a door of some kind, obviously. I'm not married to the idea of even having the booth there. It feels weird that you would enter a recording studio through an iso booth.shown with framing and treatment walls
you could turn the CR in the "live" room to see both. exactly where are the entry doors to this space? also, those pipes - are they covered with asbestos? if you don't know you should check. depending on what all those pipes and ducts do (assuming they're not for the rest of the building) then you could consider re-arranging them to maximize the ceiling height. and if they are covered in asbestos you're going to be doing a lot of work there anyways... if the existing structural ceiling can handle it, then suspending the isolation ceiling will likely be the best best unless we get the spans down enough by re-arranging the rooms.
Ouch! Major source of sound and vibration well coupled to the building and roof, which will act as a very good drum skin. Major details on this are needed. AndreThe AC and furnace are on the roof.
The most effective way to get the details of the on roof system would be to turn it on....that will release the monster into the house and let you know without a shadow of a doubt what you are up against with structure borne, air borne and vent related noise.
soffit for the HVAC is one possibility. Another is to angle the entire ceiling, so it is higher at the back than at the front, which has acoustic benefits too. Having someone above you or not doesn't really matter: You are building a "room-inside-a-room" basically, and there is an air gap between the two. The air gap runs around the entire room, so you can't make the system isolate better for one or two walls than for the others, or worse on the ceiling because no-one is up there: it has to be the same all around. The isolation is only as good as the weakest link. So if you have four wonderful walls but a lousy ceiling, then the end result is that you have lousy isolation on all sides, nit just on the ceiling. All six sides of the room have to be done the same.Could you elaborate? Should we consider building a soffit? We don't have anyone above us.
Like Andre said: OUCH!! You might need to get those re-mounted on isolation pads, to get them decoupled from the roof. This is a big issue. Any noise from those that flanks into the building structure, is going to go everywhere.The AC and furnace are on the roof. The HVAC is independent for this part of the building.
Get a sound level meter. A half-decent one will cost you maybe 50 bucks on e-bay: A good one will cost you maybe a couple of hundred, new. Measure the ambient level inside and outside your rooms (use C-weighting and slow response) when there is no noise going on anywhere. Such as at 4 AM, or something. That's your base level. Now measure in the same locations, when you have the noisiest possible group playing at top volume, as enthusiastically as they possibly can. The difference between the levels is how much isolation you need, ideally. You might not need as much as that, depending on what the acceptable minimum level is outside your room, as far as other people are concerned.We will need a pretty high level of isolation. I don't know an exact decibel or even have any idea how to calculate that.
Ouch! Engines put out acoustic energy in the low end of the spectrum, which is hard to isolate. The bigger the engine, the lower (and louder) it goes, as a general rule.The tenant to west is a automotive repair shop. They will make a fair bit of noise.
So it seems that you do need a pretty decent level of isolation. I'm guessing around 65 - 70 dB, perhaps more. Doable, but not easy.The east wall is shared with the rest of the music school, so isolation there is important to avoid hearing other music lessons in the studio for tracking.
OK, then you need to increase that. a 1" air gap is nowhere near enough for the kind of isolation you need. My guess is that you will need something like 6 or 8 inches of true air gap (space between inner-leaf and outer-leaf). You'll probably also need at least two layers of 5/8 drywall all around, preferably with Green Glue in between. Perhaps even three layers, if the mechanical shop next door is very loud (or the rest of the music school, or your HVAC....).I was referring to the gap between walls, which as viewed from top down would "look" like an air space (from a CAD POV).
Yup! Height is your friend, acoustically. The more the merrier (within reason). If that is going to be your control room, and you can figure an orientation where the ceiling at the front of the room would be at 9' sloping up to 12' at the rear, you could have really nice acoustics in there. The sloped ceiling has other advantages, too, acoustically: flutter echo, RFZ, etc. It also has disadvantages, such as making it much harder to figure out your room modes and ratio, but your room is a fairly decent size, so modal behavior might not be too much of an issue. there's always a trade-off....As you can see in the posted pictures, the proposed control room has a large main trunk duct running left to right (dwg view). Its height is 9' and the current ceiling height is 12', so we could soffit that off and have a higher ceiling for the other 1/2 of the room. Would there be a huge advantage acoustically to doing that vs a 2x12 ceiling at 8' finished height?
Personally, I don't think that would be an issue either. And if it is, then you could always hook up a simple camera in the booth connected to a video monitor at the front of the CR: problem solved! Regarding your HVAC: Like Brien said, once you get your sound level meter, measure the level in the room with the system turned off, then with it running full bore. That will tell you how much of a problem it is... - Stuart -The only disadvantage to that would be looking behind you to see the booth, which personally wouldn't really bother me.
I was thinking more about the physical reaction of the structure than how much noise was being introduced specifically.
We know that baffles and 90 degree turns in long runs of air in/out systems can help in that area.
But if that thing comes alive and seems like it wants to jump off the roof....that's gonna be an issue. ;)