My long, one-car garage studio, construction phase

That's encouraging, Stuart--thanks! I didn't touch the high shelf and tweeter level controls--those are both set straight up at 12:00. The bass shelf I set all the way counter-clockwise, to -4 db. Any thoughts about my treatment plan? As always, thank you so much, Stuart! Mark

By the way, I should have mentioned that, if anyone doubts the effectiveness of John's soffit system design, your build has demonstrated definitively that it Sure Does Work Great! Even with a relatively small enclosure, and just three smallish hangers, you got pretty good results: a reduction in RT-60 of around 100 to 200 ms in the problematic low mids, plus some rather decent damping in the low end. The graphs speak for themselves: John's designs work, when implemented right and built carefully, with attention to detail. I have a feeling this thread might become a "sticky" one day, when the room is finished: I get the impression it's going to be be good! :)

I didn't touch the high shelf and tweeter level controls--those are both set straight up at 12:00. The bass shelf I set all the way counter-clockwise, to -4 db.

Great. Leave it like that for now: you might need to tweak a bit here and there later, but that's fine for now.

Any thoughts about my treatment plan?

Looks good to me. I'd start with the superchunks, then another REW to see how that worked, then the ceiling/cloud, and another REW... And since you already proved just how effective John's hangers can be, you might want to consider using them in your rear soffits, where you don't have much depth but pretty decent width... Just a thought... - Stuart -

I have a feeling this thread might become a "sticky" one day, when the room is finished: I get the impression it's going to be be good!

Wow, Stuart--I'm flattered! Thanks for even considering that! :D

And since you already proved just how effective John's hangers can be, you might want to consider using them in your rear soffits, where you don't have much depth but pretty decent width...

The only issue with that is that I have my fresh air duct cutting through one of those soffits, which would make the hangers on that side pretty funky. I'll post photos to illustrate. In the meantime, I'm working on my superchunks; photos and new REW tests soon....... Thank you! Mark

I've been "stickied!" I'm not worthy....I'm not worthy....... But I'll try my best! :D

I've been "stickied!" I'm not worthy....I'm not worthy......

. :D :thu: Credit where it's due! Your doing a great job of building your place, based very much on John's designs and principles, and the results are already clear! :) But actually, I didn't "sticky" your thread: I think you've had the great honor of John himself "stickying" it... :) - Stuart - PS. Hmmmm. The verb "to sticky". Mmmm "he stickied" .... hmhmhmh -- I kind of like using "sticky" as a verb! It never occurred to me before... :) Nice ring to it.

Thanks for your kind words, Stuart, and thank you, John, for the sticky and this wonderful forum! I would be so lost without it! :) I've now completed the next round of control room treatment--putting the super chunks together. Sorry for the quality of some of these pictures--I guess my camera was having trouble focusing. :oops: I put Roxul Sound Stop in all the stud bays: ...and then stacked fluffy insulation for my super chunks: Stuart, the photo below shows the fresh air duct I mentioned (the rectangle above the stainless steel cover plate), which was the reason I felt that I should just stick with super chunks on the back wall: ...and then I installed another layer of Roxul on the face (these next shots are panoramic, so they're kind of warped, but you get the picture): As you can see, I stole Simo's idea of painting the framing in hopes that it doesn't show through the cloth. With that completed, I ran another REW test, which seems to be a significant improvement, at least to me with my limited understanding.... https://www.dropbox.com/s/dz211o06kdc3t ... cloud.mdat I'm planning to start working on my cloud next, which will be 3 1/2" thick, filled with more Roxul Sound Stop, with a hard top of 1/2" plywood, angled at at least 12 degrees. Does that sound like a good approach for the cloud, given what the REW tests look like so far? I've posted this picture a few times, but this is what I have in mind: Thank you in advance for any feedback! Mark

which seems to be a significant improvement, 

:D That's the understatement of the year! :) Let's take a look at a few "before" and "after" pairs...: First, the waterfall plot: Now frequency response: And impulse response: RT-60: And finally the spectrogram: So, yeah, it looks like there's just a tiny change here and there! :o :!: In fact, those are pretty massive, amazing changes, across the board! The low end response is way, way cleaner, smoother, tighter, and it looks like all of your modal issue are under control. The "tails" you see on teh waterfall plot are not decaying at all, so they are most likely caused by something humming or buzzing physically. You might want to go looking for that. Maybe a fan, pump, motor, or some such? You can also change the s"start frequency" in the REW settings, to start measuring from maybe 25 Hz or so, since all that garbage below there is not real, and not part of what you should be worrying about. And its clear that you are sucking too much out of the high end (to be expected) so you might want to put plastic over most of your insulation, to help get the highs back into the room. The only place you don't want to do that, is on your first reflection points.

angled at at least 12 degrees. Does that sound like a good approach for the cloud, given what the REW tests look like so far? I've posted this picture a few times, but this is what I have in mind:

You might not even need the hard back: The low end is looking pretty good just like it is. So maybe try two tests, one without hard back and the other with something clamped up there temporarily. Also, a 1/2" back is probably not enough: I would go for 3/4. And looking in my crystal ball, I some some slot walls in your future... :) - Stuart -

In fact, those are pretty massive, amazing changes, across the board!

I was hoping you'd say something like that! :D A couple questions: One of the reasons I was thinking about doing a cloud with a hard back was because of my vaulted ceiling--trying to avoid having reflections bounce off the ceiling from two different directions toward my listening position. Or am I thinking about that wrong? I'm happy to put plastic over my rockwool, but I have a couple questions about that: My understanding from reading Simo's thread is that I do not want plastic where I'm planning to have slats (on the entire length of left and right walls), because that will prevent the slats from working properly, correct? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14814&start=195 In addition, part of the function of the slats will be to bring back some of the brightness, correct? So I wouldn't need the plastic underneath anyway? Assuming the points above are correct, that leaves the front wall between the soffits and the rear super chunk wall, where I was just going to cover them in fabric. My only concern there is regarding effectively having a vapor barrier in the wrong location, which xSpace cautioned me against earlier in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15430&start=30 However, I did notice in a comment in Javier's thread, that John puts plastic everywhere as a matter of course ( maybe even where the slats go?): viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18525&start=15 so I'm a bit torn about all of this. Thank you for any light you can shine!! Gratefully, Mark

One of the reasons I was thinking about doing a cloud with a hard back was because of my vaulted ceiling--trying to avoid having reflections bounce off the ceiling from two different directions toward my listening position. Or am I thinking about that wrong?

The idea is right, but you don't seem to be having much of that problem right now. There are some reflections at around 5ms which might be coming from the ceiling, but they are very low level (already about -16dB, and that will go down still more with the cloud), so you probably will be OK there. You are right to be concerned about it, as it could have been an issue, but it looks like it didn't turn out to be important.

My understanding from reading Simo's thread is that I do not want plastic where I'm planning to have slats (on the entire length of left and right walls), because that will prevent the slats from working properly, correct?

Right! The insulation inside your slot walls must be right up against the slats, with nothing in between (except black fabric to hide the "ugly"). Plastic in there would totally kill the Helmholtz effect.

In addition, part of the function of the slats will be to bring back some of the brightness, correct? So I wouldn't need the plastic underneath anyway?

Right again!

that leaves the front wall between the soffits and the rear super chunk wall, where I was just going to cover them in fabric. My only concern there is regarding effectively having a vapor barrier in the wrong location, which xSpace cautioned me against earlier in this thread:

True, and where you live that probably would be an issue. So you could do the plastic "incomplete": in other words, don't do it completely across everything and fully sealed. Rather, do it in several very broad "bands" of plastic with small gaps between them. For example, 12" bands with 1" gaps, or something like that. So it would no longer be a vapor barrier, but would still be reflective to highs, mostly. That's what I would do. Basically, leave very large holes in that potential second vapor barrier. - Stuart -

Hello again.... Stuart, great idea regarding installing a "non-vapor barrier." Your advice is always so appreciated! Quick question on that back super chunk wall: I will do exactly as you said, stapling up plastic with gaps cut into it on that wall, so I get the benefit of high-end reflectivity without creating a vapor barrier in the wrong location. I think I would like the look of just a cloth wall to finish, but I'm concerned about people leaning against the cloth and damaging it, especially in such a small room. I know that people on this forum have addressed that problem by widely spacing slats over the cloth so that it has a minimal effect acoustically, but protects the cloth. I'm wondering what the size of the slats and size of the gaps between them should be in order to accomplish that? Now onward to my cloud. I ended up building it almost exactly as designed, except for the fact that I made it one piece instead of two. Here it is with the basic framing done: Here's a closer view--the three holes are for LED lights that will be placed there: I decided to staple string on the underside of the cloud to help hold up the rock wool: I then stapled plastic over the framing--this is a view of the top side of the cloud: This is a closeup of where one of the lights will be (I haven't cut the circle in the plastic yet). The white border you see is 1/4" thick screen molding that I nailed around the perimeter. Before I installed the plastic I nailed up 1/4" plywood to attach the lights at the same "height" as the perimeter. The idea here is that I'm hoping any irregularities in the cloud framing will be invisible because the cloth will be only be touching the underside of the cloud at the perimeter and where the lights are attached. Kind of hard to put into words; we'll see if it works... I then put in the Roxul Safe N Sound batts: And finally lifted it into place. There are four anchor points in the ceiling, two in front: ...and two in back: Here's what it looks like from below: There is about an 8 1/2" gap between the front and sides of the cloud and the front and sides of the control room walls. The cloud is hanging at about 12 degrees. Once I got the cloud up there I ran another REW test; the link to it is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cj3ytpl3ekr8e ... cloud.mdat It looks like things are continuing to improve, to my untrained eye. I'm eager to see what your thoughts are, Stuart, and especially eager to come up with a plan for the slats. I'm assuming that will be the next step, is that correct? Thank you!! Mark

Looking great Mark !! very good :thu:

Nice looking cloud! A couple of other suggestions: On those square patches of wood around where the lights will go, you might want to bevel and round off the edges so that they don't make hard lines in the cloth when you put that on. For the chains: I'm not too keen on using S-hooks or any open hook for hanging things above my head, especially where I live (Earthquake capital of the world!). For the sake of safety, I would replace those with safety links, clips, snaps, something like these: http://www.pacifictrailers.com/chain-ca ... ins-82930/ http://www.pacifictrailers.com/chain-ca ... ins-82930/ http://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and ... 81360.html http://www.kingsnaps.net/index_down.php OK, those were the first I found with a quick Google search, and some are from mountain climbing gear, so perhaps not appropriate for your application, but that's the type of thing that you need: A link that you can close and lock somehow, so that the chain can't come loose and drop the cloud on your head, even in an earthquake. I'll take a look at the REW, and get back to you! :) - Stuart -

About the REW file: PLease name your tests! These a text box at the top of each measurement thumbnail that has the date and time in it, but it would be better to change that to describe what it represents, such as "empty room - left", "superchunks - right", "clouds - both", etc., It just makes it easier to navigate when you are comparing different tests... - Stuart -

Thanks, Simo and Stuart! Stuart--great idea about easing the edges of the square patches where the lights will go--I'll do that. And good point about my hooks--I'll swap those out for something safer--they're always telling us around here that it's not if but when the "big one" will hit! Sorry about not naming my REW measurements more descriptively. I changed them to reflect what they are, in order of treatment. I couldn't fit as many characters as I wanted, so to clarify, #3 and #4 include the treated soffits: 1. no treatment 2. soffits only 3. walls 4. walls and cloud Here's the link to the updated REW file, with names: https://www.dropbox.com/s/24tabvck5p4d1 ... names.mdat Something else I've been thinking of--I have quite a bit of empty space above the cloud. Any reason I shouldn't attach a thick layer of fluffy insulation up there, hoping to tame my 60 Hz bump a little more? (FYI--that light in the second photo is temporary--it will become just a junction box for the cloud lighting) Thank you! Mark

While I'm waiting for some feedback on my latest REW measurements, I thought I'd get started on the finish layer of my bezels. I picked up some 3/4" maple plywood for the bezels and also for my slats. Quick question: I'm planning to coat the maple with polyurethane to protect it. My understanding is that the more coats of poly you apply, the more reflective the surface becomes. Any advice on this topic? should I just stick with one coat of a satin sheen poly, or a different sheen/more coats? Thank you!

Hello again-- Time for a bezel update. Before I start that, Stuart, I'm hoping you'll have a chance to review my most recent REW test (with new, improved descriptive names :) ) This REW was done after all the wall treatments were in, along with the cloud. I explain all of that in my previous post. Thank you in advance! Ok--on to the bezels.... First, I made templates using luan (cheap, 3/16" plywood) which I ripped into strips, temporarily stapled to my sub-bezel, and hot-glued together: Then I clamped the templates to the back side of my 3/4" maple plywood and traced the pattern: Using my circular saw and a fence clamped to the plywood, I cut the bezel from the back side, thereby avoiding having any splintering on the finished face of the bezel. To finish the cuts from the back side, I used a Japanese hand saw. Next, I created my top speaker vents, using three holes as a guide: I prepared my sub-bezel by stapling black cloth over the vents: ...and then applying construction adhesive, before using trim-head screws to fasten the bezel in place. The screws down the center are visible in the pictures; there are also screws that are difficult to see along both sides. I was quite generous with the construction adhesive--I will never be able to pull the bezels off in one piece! I decided when designing the bezels that I would have a removable frame that surrounds the speaker, enabling me the remove the speaker for adjustments/repairs, etc, without having to remove the entire bezel. If I didn't have Adams (with their unusual shape) for monitors, I wouldn't have approached it this way, but I feel this is the best solution for me. Here is the rough speaker frame, from the back. I used a router to rough it in: And here it is after I smoothed it out: Finally, here's what the bezels look like (almost) finished. I'm planning to attach a 1/4" strip of walnut around the speaker frame (where there is a visible gap) to give it a bit of an accent: So that's where I'm at presently. I have purchased some black fabric for behind my slats, and I've been reading up on the subject of slats. At this point, I'm leaning toward a broadband design, with 2", 3", and 4" slats and perhaps 1/8", 1/4", and 3/8" slots, but I find the more I read on this subject, the less I feel I know. Any guidance on slats for my particular room is much appreciated! Thank You!! Mark

Sorry about the delay Bigsby! Been fully occupied the last few weeks trying to fix some acoustic ... errr ... "oversights" in the design of a meeting room for 250 people.... I'm looking at your REW data, and I'm a bit puzzled: the "both" SPL curve should be about 6 dB higher than either the "left" or the "right" curve, but it is about the same, and in fact even a bit lower in some places! Are you sure you kept the levels the same between tests? The good news is that the improvement is very evident in the graphs! That cloud is certainly doing its job, really well. Bezel varnish: I don't think it will make any real difference if you apply multiple coats or just one coat. That's more of an aesthetic decision than an acoustic decision. Do as many (or as few) coats as you need to get it looking the way you want. - Stuart -

Hey! Great job so far. Wow!! Stuart, perhaps Bigsby is calibrating the SPL meter to read 80 between tests. That might be causing the issue in the REW levels.

Hello all-- I've been busy the last couple of weeks, so it's time for an update. First of all, Stuart, regarding my last REW tests:

I'm looking at your REW data, and I'm a bit puzzled: the "both" SPL curve should be about 6 dB higher than either the "left" or the "right" curve, but it is about the same, and in fact even a bit lower in some places! Are you sure you kept the levels the same between tests?

I think Mike was right (by the way, thanks for your kind words, Mike!); for some reason I reset my levels when I was testing the speakers individually to match the db of both together. Kind of a brain fart, I guess. I didn't do that for my latest REW tests. So anyway, I went ahead and installed the slats. I decided to go with John's broadband design as I understand it, using 2", 3", and 4" slats with 1/8", 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" slots. Here are a couple of pictures as the cloth was going up. I should apologize for the poor photos; I'm just spending all my money on this build--none left over for a new camera! I cut spacers to make sure that I was precise with my slots: Here is a shot with the spacers in use--this approach made installation very easy: I would have loved to get a custom panel made, but it just wasn't in the budget, so I ordered 4 gang panels from Redco, which will go here: Here's a couple shots of the finished slats: Next, I covered my cloud in cloth. The color in the pictures is short of pinkish, but it's really more of a cranberry color. I started from the center of the cloud, folding the cloth over a batten to give it a clean look: ….reached my attachment limit--part two coming up!

…continuing…. More photos of the cloud: I decided it couldn't hurt to add some fluffy insulation to the top of the cloud, since there's quite a bit of space above it: I then covered this with an old bed sheet that I treated with fire retardant: Then I installed a "rope" of LED lights around the perimeter: And here's what it looks like installed. I have it wired so that I can have one, two, or three of the LED lights on, or none of them on with only the rope light. This way I avoid using a dimmer. Finally, here are some photos of the room as it exists now: To be continued….

Ok--last installment of this update…. My next step will be to cover the back wall, which currently looks like this: My plan is to cover it with plastic (with 1" slits cut through it every foot or so, so that it doesn't act as a vapor barrier) and then cloth, and then some widely spaced slats for protection of the wall--not for any acoustic reason. My thought is that I would use 2" slats, 4" apart up to about 6 feet off the floor, and then maybe even wider spacing above that. I have a few questions, though: 1. Given my most recent REW results (link posted below), does it still look like a good idea to install the plastic now that the slats are in on the side walls? ---my inclination is yes, I should do it to brighten up the room even more. I seem to remember that John does this as a matter of course. 2. Does my slat approach for the back wall accomplish what I'm intending--something that's more or less acoustically "invisible" but still protects the wall? 3. My plan for the front wall between the soffits is to just use cloth over a frame--no slats. Should I put plastic on this wall, as well? Here is a link to my latest REW tests: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqvehpf2q7ekq ... alled.mdat To review, the previous tests were named like this: I couldn't fit as many characters as I wanted, so to clarify, #3 and #4 include the treated soffits: 1. no treatment 2. soffits only 3. walls 4. walls and cloud …and the most recent test: 5. slats and cloud Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! Mark

Fantastic work Mark. The slats and the speaker soffit are looking great !! Keep up the good work man ! :thu:

I agree with simo! It's looking AMAZING Mark..! Great work! You should be VERY proud! :)

Here is a link to my latest REW tests:

Just keeps getting better and better! There's a dip around 1kHz that I can't quite figure out, and it appeared with the "walls" set of data, so that's hard to explain, but apart from that detail it's looking pretty good for a small room!

1. Given my most recent REW results (link posted below), does it still look like a good idea to install the plastic now that the slats are in on the side walls? ---my inclination is yes, I should do it to brighten up the room even more. I seem to remember that John does this as a matter of course.

Yep, I'd do that. You are still rolling off a bit in the very high end, so you could do with a bit of brightening.

2. Does my slat approach for the back wall accomplish what I'm intending--something that's more or less acoustically "invisible" but still protects the wall?

Yup! That will work fine.

3. My plan for the front wall between the soffits is to just use cloth over a frame--no slats. Should I put plastic on this wall, as well?

Try it with and without. Do a REW test without any plastic, then another one with plastic just taped in place temporarily (eg. with masking tape), to see what effect it has, then decide. - Stuart -

Simo and Mike--thank you! I really appreciate the encouragement. It's been such a long road--4 1/2 years since I began this project by building an addition to my garage (yes, the original building was even smaller than it is now :shock: ). There finally seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel that's not an oncoming train! Thanks for your reply, Stuart! I will continue as you suggest. I don't know what I'd do without your guidance. :D