Small Studio in Isolated Building

if the angled walls are slot resonators, yes there is a third leaf effect but also absorption. if they are cloth covered frames for rigid insulation absorbers, then no third leaf effect (or microscopic).

Makes sense, I guess if I would just take a second and think, I wouldn't have to ask these questions.

Where are you going to mix?? The corner? Please don't tell me you're going to make a tiny room in the corner? - John

jhbrandt wrote:

Please don't tell me you're going to make a tiny room in the corner?

the corner control room idea is based on the need for isolation from the live space. if there is no need for isolation between your control room and live space then i concur with John that a single room with just an isolation booth is simpler and better.

Thanks guys, but from the sounds of things, it's just not feasible to use this building for what I want to do. Sorry to waste your guys time. Thanks again for the help though.

did something happen with your building?

Nothing happened to it, it just seems like the building just isn't suited for what I want to do. I think I'm just going to continue renting it out and look for a different building. Don't get me wrong, I would love to use this building as it is on the same property as my house. It just sounds like it won't turn out to be what I want, even with all the work I want to do to it.

agreed. like a lot of non-purpose built structures, this one represents a number of challenges and trade-offs and the results could be sub-optimal. that said, if you go with a small isolated control room, will that be worse than a large open room? maybe, probably. if you sell all your recordings via MP3 and mix using headphones only, then room acoustics for mix down is a non-issue. if you record using headphones and mix using free standing monitors, then an open space might just work. if we attack the problems of a small space correctly it may prove completely usable especially if isolation is a more important requirement. trade-offs. then again, maybe there is another building in the area which would give you better rooms but then you may have to expend a lot more money on materials because of the size etc and paying rent and the possibility you do all the work and then your lease is suddenly terminated or otherwise no longer can afford it. maybe starting small and sub-optimal is "good enough", maybe getting the rental income is more important. dunno. maybe we haven't played with all the possible room configurations yet...

I'm not looking for perfect, just something to help the bands get up and running. I want to be able to offer the bands a good sounding demo CD that they can be proud to offer. I don't want it to sound like it was recorded in their living room. :lol: I really don't want to have to invest in another building if I don't have to, I already own this one. The rental income is a null issue, there is no need for it, I just saw the opportunity and took advantage of it. I mean, it was already being rented out when I bought the place, I just put new tenants in it with a short lease. (5 months) If I do find another building, it will be one that I can purchase, I don't want to rent/lease a place just for the simple fact of having issues with land lords, I'd rather not have to deal with that. That also leads to another large purchase. I was looking into a way of getting started for now. If it ends up being something that I want to continue, I will look into another building. For now, I'd prefer to continue with this building, it just seems that there is a lot of work that needs done to it. I'm not against the work, it's just discouraging when I get get a solid design that I know will work. :? In your new design, it appears that the airlock goes into the control and then the control room would have a door in the live room. Am I correct in this observation? Also, the "store" area, would guess just an open area. Doors would create more vibrations, correct? Forget the previous questions, after I looked at the drawing closer, I noticed that you actually had the doors drawn in. That's what I get for asking questions without looking at the picture. John, does this design meet your approval?

one thought could also be (while not necessarily wanting a smaller control room, but the narrow end could potentially be shortened a few feet and the store area could become another small vox booth or amp room

I was thinking about the amp room. I'm sure that the bands I'll be recording will be happy with anything that sounds decent. I'd prefer to have an overall comfort for the bands and a good ending result to give them. If that means me sitting in a box with headphones, so be it.

Glen, You sure are quick on the draw! nice. (can I hire you??) OP, I'm guess I'm guilty of not wanting to compromise too much. It's so true that even with optimal space, compromises must be made. You will need to make the decision whether or not these suggestions will fit your needs. Glen is giving you some wise and experienced advice. Headphone mixing is not a thought that had entered into my mind :P But honestly, if you are going to record drums, you'll need to use a booth. But everything else can be done in the CR with headphones. Then you have the larger room for optimum acoustics and mixing. It's a toss-up, really. You've got to weight the costs and compromises and see which is best for you. I like the last drawing that Glen did.. but it still is tiny... hmmmm. Cheers, John

I'm glad to see a little positiveness from you John. :D You're right though, Glenn is on it when it comes to the drawings, I'm envious! :mrgreen: Like I said earlier, I'm not one that needs comfort. I would rather have the band be comfortable and have a decent sounding result. Headphones are fine by me, that's what I'm used to anyways. It's a must when I do live recordings. It just doesn't sound the same when I record it in a bar. I can't use the house sound system to get my levels correct. :roll: To be able to offer a band a double disc (studio/live) would be a great addition to my list. You would be surprised on how much outside opinions affect my decisions. Do you feel that the Isolation Room is good enough for a drum booth? It's about 560 ft^3 without building any walls or anything yet. From the look of things, the large room will be basically split in half from corner to corner. Half for the Control Room, other half for the Live Room. My total size for the Control Room + Live Room is roughly 2400 ft^3. I mean, that's what I have to work with in the one room of the building right now, before I do any work to it. That also does not include the Isolation Room (kitchen). Which means, after building walls and splitting up the room, I would have around 1000 ft^3 for my control room. I know this is a little small, well maybe more than a little, but I think it will be a compromise that I will have to work with. I know you say a minimum of 1500 ft^3, but I don't think it's possible without sacrificing the bands ability to play comfortably, let alone having a large band in it. I think I'm starting to ramble now :blah: So I will just stop before I end up typing something that I've already said. Thanks again for everything guys. 8)

Before you give up, take a look here for a second or two: http://johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Mark.htm If John can do that in roughly 990 ft^3, then I don't see why you can't do something pretty damn good in 2400! (Or even in 1000) :) Seriously, you'll see a lot of comments here from the experts along the lines of "Sometimes you just have to live with what you've got". That seems to be kind of the second slogan for studio builders. Sure, your space is not ideal, but it doesn't mean that it is impossible. It only means that you'll have some limitations, and you'll have to work a bit harder to squeeze out every last inch and every last decibel. Another example: Have you ever noticed how good music can sound in your car? That certainly is a bit less than 1000 ft^3 :!: :shock: I know of quite a few engineers who use their cars as the ultimate listening environment, to check on their final mixes... So if you can build a highly successful studio in a container, and have a great listening "room" inside a car, I reckon that your space is NOT a lost case at all: It's just a matter of making the absolute best of what you have available, and using every trick in the book to do it. Take a close look at Spark One: Notice that the 990 ft^3 includes BOTH the control room AND the booth... And those dimensions are BEFORE installing the isolation and treatment... :) You actually have a lot more space than that! Will yours be a fantastic world-class studio? Probably not. But it can still be damn good, if you ask me. All is not lost! - Stuart -

i don't think you posted it, what equipment are you (planning) to use? mix console, monitors, etc

Well, that's where I have come to a crossroad. So far, they only things I have to use are a M-Audio Delta 1010, Behringer Ultra-DI Pro, Behringer Eurorack Pro, and a custom build rack computer with Sonar 8. I've been doing live recordings, all I do is DI the mixer from the house system into my computer. I use the Eurorack to get a quick level adjustment from the DI before I dump into the 1010 and then tweak with Sonar. I also have some other software, Ableton Live, Propellerhead Reason, and a ton of vst's and other plugins. I know a lot of people like to see real hardware, but I'm a computer junkie, have been for 16 years now. I build my own, and fix the military's. You could say I'm addicted to technology (and music). I have quite a few 50' snakes, 1/4" to 1/4", XLR to XLR, 1/4" to XLR, etc. I also have an Alesis MultiMix8 USB that I use for personal use. I guess it's a start right? :shot: I have a wonderful wish list of things, but I have yet to actually go through with the purchase for the studio. I know that gear is a major deciding factor in a build, I just would like to have some place to put it once I get it instead of it sitting around collecting dust. A local shop has a Behringer XENYX X1832USB that I've been looking at grabbing. :yahoo: Monitors, well, there isn't any available local, so I will have to order them no matter what I get. A friend of mine works for Guitar Center and said she'll order me what I want. I just need to find it. Sadly, I don't have the option of being able to listen to them before I buy them, unless I drive 3 hours to Atlanta and find a store there, which is not out of the question. I have been looking at the Cakewalk MA-15D, or possibly the Mackie MR8 or maybe since everything else is Behringer, I should go with Behringer TRUTH B3031A? Yes, I know, none of these are stellar in any way, but once again, I'm not looking at producing multi-million dollar records here, I'm looking at helping out the little guys who can't afford to pay the big bucks yet. One thing I am worried about though is the computer, it is LOUD. In a bar during a live show, you don't notice it, but in a quiet room, it pretty much drowns out anything you are trying to listen to, redundant power supplies, harddrives, etc. I need to either find or build a box for it. :roll:

ok so what i've drawn here should be sized ok for the equipment... the Behringer Truth monitors seem to have good reviews from people using them plus you can mount them into your walls if you wanted to. second guessing myself - i'd probably revert this design back to sliders on the isolation booth.

All I can say is wow! :mrgreen: You really don't waste time when it comes to drawing do you? :yahoo:

it's easier than typing all those darn words :roll:

Yeah, I can see where that would be true. Any words of advice on the steel framing? I have no experience with steel, all my work has been done with lumber. I'd like to say I did it all by myself, but I think I will have to contract it out sadly. Behringer's it is then, I got a thing for their equipment anyways. :mrgreen: As far as the wall mounting goes, I guess I need to figure out the dimensions and get the distances right to see if I need to put them in the wall or not. I was going to ask about the sliding doors, but I guess there is no need to now. :D I figure it would be easier to get a drum kit in and out with them. :wink: Next big task it to tackle the HVAC system, or lack there of. :roll: I'm starting to think that I will have more than $10K invested in the building process. :shock:

So, I've done some reading on building with steel, looks simple enough. Need to do some more reading to see what needs done for doors and windows, but I don't think it would be much different. Now I just need to find a supplier. Do you guys know anything about HVAC? I'm going to need a setup for this building, a little less than 4000 ft^3. I figure about 8,000 BTU (2/3 TON) needed for normal cooling. Does this sound anywhere close? Is there any recommended methods in the audio world?

I think Rod explains what needs to be considered in order to calculate the size of the HVAC. That said, you might consider a concealed duct system since your likely to strip the ceiling drywall and use some isolation brackets and hat channel to separate the rooms... My WAG on the HVAC would likely be 3.5 tons minimum.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10303&start=0 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9756&start=15 http://www.mcquay.com/mcquaybiz/literat ... -010lo.pdf viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11542&start=0 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11410&start=0 A few of the links I have on HVAC...it's always more than just figuring the tonnage ;)

Totally agree. HVAC is one of the most complex bits. I'm just out in the woods this weekend with the scouts so my terseness is even more terse... :wink:

It was nothing on you Glenn, I know your work ;) and since I have these links...better to share then hoard them!