Need some advise for new design.

Whats up guys. Well we finally have some pictures to show the place. Ive taken some pics of what we have done so far (sorry for no framing/construction pics, was not there when they were working in the room) Most of the pictures are of the finished vocal booth, all the framing is done, the insulation is in and the sheetrock is up. We are going to keep the “wall” that could not be moved, not even touched, this would make up the left control room wall. It is completely stuffed with insulation and will get a second layer of drywall. We also packed in some of the white foam that you see in there, really dense, heavy stuff to add some more mass, but only around the window frame. We did the framing based on the information provided by you guys and Rod’s book. Thanks for everything. The flooring the vocal booth in going to get changed to wood laminate flooring once we get close to completion, and all the sheetrock will be sealed all around, including the ceiling, floor and everything else. Next we are going to do the front and back wall of the control room (the right wall is already up as you can see in the picture but with no insulation. Ive attached a few pics of the back wall that we have now which is from the original construction (wood frame with some drywall that we are going to take down and stuff with insulation completely) should we keep this or direct ourselves to some other designs/ideas. About the room treatments (just wanted to know for the future) we were planning in using the mix of wall mounted acoustic panels, and wall size acoustic walls (wood frame and insulation with cloth) we were planning this for the front and rear walls of the control room and atleast one wall of the vocal booth, if it is possible. Thanks for everything thing guys, and we are still open for ideas. Hopefully we are doing everything right, and be up and running pretty soon. Thanks to you all, you’re the best.

It is completely stuffed with insulation and will get a second layer of drywall. We also packed in some of the white foam that you see in there, really dense, heavy stuff to add some more mass,

That was probably not a good idea. Using insulation this is too dense will reduce your low frequency isolation. Anything over about 50 kg/m3 is too dense. Even worse is if you "pack it in" tightly, as that could very well create flanking paths through the wall, especially with very dense insulation. It should only be laid in place, never "packed in". You can fill the cavity, certainly (if code allows it), but you should never overfill. When you say "white foam", what exactly do you mean, anyway? What kind of "foam" is that? Most foams do not have any useful acoustic properties, unless they are open-cell foam. Most common foams are closed-cell. Those are useless, acoustically. So what did you actually use in there? If that is some type of packing foam, most likely it is doing more harm than good. If you don't know what it is and what its acoustic properties are, then take it out and replace it with something that is know to work well, such as 703 wrapped in fabric. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

It is completely stuffed with insulation and will get a second layer of drywall. We also packed in some of the white foam that you see in there, really dense, heavy stuff to add some more mass,

That was probably not a good idea. Using insulation this is too dense will reduce your low frequency isolation. Anything over about 50 kg/m3 is too dense. Even worse is if you "pack it in" tightly, as that could very well create flanking paths through the wall, especially with very dense insulation. It should only be laid in place, never "packed in". You can fill the cavity, certainly (if code allows it), but you should never overfill. When you say "white foam", what exactly do you mean, anyway? What kind of "foam" is that? Most foams do not have any useful acoustic properties, unless they are open-cell foam. Most common foams are closed-cell. Those are useless, acoustically. So what did you actually use in there? If that is some type of packing foam, most likely it is doing more harm than good. If you don't know what it is and what its acoustic properties are, then take it out and replace it with something that is know to work well, such as 703 wrapped in fabric. - Stuart -

Sound man thanks for your quick response. About the insulationn I was using the term packed wrong, it is laid in, and the foam is in place, not packed in there all tight. We are using regular mineral wool insulation like 2 inches thick. About the white foam, it is like an auralex type of foam, we know its not the best place for it, but just put it in to stop some of the resonance of the glass once we put it in place, which we also need to line that opening with some insulation wrapped in fabric as well. Is the white stuff is an issue we can get it out of there. We were planning on using it also for when we get the actual insulation for the window edges, use that as a place to stick the other insulation onto it. How does everything with the wall construction (front, back, and left control room walls ) look? Any ideas as of the room treatments as a future reference? Thanks to soundman and everyone, you are all bad a*#es!!!

What's up everyone. Well got a few questions. Right now we are in the front and backwall framing stage in the control room, and we had a few questions concerning this. In our case, can we do the framing angled (seen it in some studios here) to give the room the non parallel front/back walls? Would this be effective in the isolation stage? or Should we just leave the framing how you guys have recommended it and do the angled treatment walls later on when we get to that stage? Also is it recommended if we can do the angled front and rear walls, to mix inside-out and regular walls in the same room? I ask this because we wanted to achieve the use of front and rear fabric covered treatment walls.. is this possible in our layout? Last question, we found laying around in the place some mixed sized roxul panels, about an inch thick, and we wanted to put it into use. We are going to use some of it for the window framing stage. Based on all the research and info found, for acoustic panels, the regular is to use 2 inch thick roxul or mineral wool in wood frames covered in stretched fabric, would we get the same effective results if we do the same, but mount the panels at least an inch or two off the wall using small wood blocks? We want to use this material and not leave it to waste. Thanks for everything guys, youve been of great help Thanks

Whats up everyone Well yesterday was a pretty cool day full of discoveries. We were planning out how we are going to start the framing of the control room when we found out that the walls of the original structure are made up of regular framing, 1 inch rigid fiberglass and a drywall type of material, about 1/2 inch thick. In front of this we plan on doing the 2x4 frame, with insulation and drywall on the inner side (is this correct, or can we do something else) Can we make this framing wall angled to give us the front control room wall shape from the picture below or something like what gullfo suggested.. Found this somewhere in the forum (just as an example) or do we just do the simple framing (no angles) and in the treatment stage we do an angled framing, with insulation and stretched fabric?? We also found in the office side of our place some 1inch thick rigid fiberglass insulation just lying around. We were planning on using them for room treatment, but being that they are only 1inch we need to double layer to make the treatment panels.. I hope im right in this :? ?? THIS IS A SKETCH OF THE IDEA WE HAVE FOR THE TREATMENT OF THE STUDIO.. WITH SOME IDEAS FROM SOME RESEARCH AND HELP FROM YOU GUYS.. WE WERE PLANNING ON SUING BOTH TYPES OF TREATMENT, ACOUSTIC PANELS AND ANGLED FRAMED ACOUSTIC WALLS WITH STRETCHED FABRIC (DONT REALLY KNOW THE REAL NAME) DUE TO BUDGET LIMITATIONS, AND ALSO INCLUDE SOME TYPE OF DIFFUSION IN THE ROOMS AS WELL.. STILL OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS/NEW IDEAS Thanks for everything guys..

i'd keep the isolation walls square and do the treatment walls angled. the treatment plan looks good. i'd plan on heavy drapes and/or movable absorbers for the windows when you want to mix.

gullfo wrote:

i'd keep the isolation walls square and do the treatment walls angled. the treatment plan looks good. i'd plan on heavy drapes and/or movable absorbers for the windows when you want to mix.

Gullfo thanks for the input, we were thinking about that.. Making some window plugs, something like an acoustic panel, just light weight. This is an issue even if we plan to angle the window down? The idea of the drapes are good too, but is it more or the same effective than the window plug?? Thanks to everyone for their help

yes, you'll still want to cut any reflections off the glass because it's straight on, angling down isn't likely to help that much. having just a couple of 4" absorbers hung on hooks would be enough.

gullfo wrote:

yes, you'll still want to cut any reflections off the glass because it's straight on, angling down isn't likely to help that much. having just a couple of 4" absorbers hung on hooks would be enough.

Wow man thanks, that looks crazy.. I had a quick question about the front wall of the control room.. What would be the right angles/size for this wall. How would i choose on a size for the bass traps / corners, or the front flat part of the wall it self (we plan on mounting a mid size flat screen on this wall)? I know were not on that stage yet, but I like to plan ahead Thanks for the info man

Are you to the point where you can provide a simple floor plan with accurate dimensions including doors, windows, etc ? Include heights, etc.

gullfo wrote:

Are you to the point where you can provide a simple floor plan with accurate dimensions including doors, windows, etc ? Include heights, etc.

I will try to get that floorplan to you once we are done (almost close)

Whats up everyone. We we are almost done with the framing stage of the studio.. way too much mud/sanding, but we are close to the end. Soon i should have an accurate floor plan so that I can have the treatment figured out. We did have a concern on the mounting of the glass for the rooms. This week we will have some one come in an measure the openings for the glass, but we need the frames to be done, so I had a few concerns. Using Rod’s book as a guide, we were planning on using his ideas for the window framing, but we are not sure about how to place the glass, at an angle, or parallel. It shows in the book that either would work as long as the window it self is completely sealed. What do you guys recommend (we were aimed to parallel if possible) but we know the consequences with using this, reflection surfaces and all (we also plan on building the panels suggested by gullfo to hang and cover the windows when mixing) Is there any other more basic way to do the framing (also wallet-friendly) or is this the only suggested plan to the window framing. Is it also recommended around the framing (outside part with the drywall) to seal with a caulk or silicon sealant to make sure of no leaks anywhere, and when building this frame, we can use regular screws/nails or is there another way of doing it (using adhesive or something similar) We are also going to seal the doors to the rooms, making a beefed up door frame using wood and we plan on using either the trunk seal or using a thick weatherstrip for exterior doors (in the near future we plan on getting the automatic seals for the bottom of the door) Hopefully everything works out how I have explained Thanks for your help guys.. :-D

if you're planning on covering the windows during mix down, i'd angle them or make them parallel based on optical needs to improve visibility. if you can put some glass in their to gauge the reflections, it could help, or maybe just angle them per Rod's book as a safe bet.

gullfo wrote:

if you're planning on covering the windows during mix down, i'd angle them or make them parallel based on optical needs to improve visibility. if you can put some glass in their to gauge the reflections, it could help, or maybe just angle them per Rod's book as a safe bet.

i dont understand what you mean by optical means?? You mean keep them parallel but angle them vertically at a peak towards one side? is this what you mean?? and what about the glass in there to gauge the reflections?? So you dont recommend just setting them without angle.. well time to get into the angled framing.. :? lets see how that goes Thanks man..

So you dont recommend just setting them without angle..

You CAN set them without any angle if you want, and doing so maximizes isolation, but then you have to take care with your lighting to avoid glare coming back at you from the glass surface. That's the "optical" issue Glenn is talking about. With no angle at all you do run the risk of having highlight reflected back, making it harder to see through. So basically, if you can figure out a good lighting plan to avoid that, then sure, put the glass in flat! But if you think it might be an issue, then angle it slightly, in whichever direction is most likely to avoid glare. As long as you only angle it a bit, you won't compromise isolation too much. And if you are concerned about isolation, then you can always get thicker glass! With MSM, it is usually possible to compensate for reduced air gap by increasing mass. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

So you dont recommend just setting them without angle..

You CAN set them without any angle if you want, and doing so maximizes isolation, but then you have to take care with your lighting to avoid glare coming back at you from the glass surface. That's the "optical" issue Glenn is talking about. With no angle at all you do run the risk of having highlight reflected back, making it harder to see through. So basically, if you can figure out a good lighting plan to avoid that, then sure, put the glass in flat! But if you think it might be an issue, then angle it slightly, in whichever direction is most likely to avoid glare. As long as you only angle it a bit, you won't compromise isolation too much. And if you are concerned about isolation, then you can always get thicker glass! With MSM, it is usually possible to compensate for reduced air gap by increasing mass. - Stuart -

thanks Stuart for your fast response I did read that if i leave them without an angle, it does isolate more, I think we are going go with this plan and see what happens, we would just need to figure out lighting, but that can be fixed. Is there any other suggestion for window framing or should i just follow Rod's diagram? We need to do 2 of these cause we have a vocal booth and the live room. Should I be looking into any special materials such as specific wood measurements, materials such as nails/screws or the glazing tape? We are also ready to start the acoustic treatment for the vocal booth (need to upload the floor plan) We have some 4ftx4ft 1inch thick rigid panels that we found lying around in the warehouse, and plan to use this for the treatment in the vocal booth. We need to figure out how to treatment this room (this would be fun) If anything we are going to cut the panels in half to make 2x4 2 inch thick panels in wood frame, wrapped in fabric, to hang around the room, or we can use it to make an angled treatment wall, depending on what you guys suggest. Thanks everyone for all your help

basically Rod lays all the materials needed - neoprene or other soft rubber would likely be the main difference from a normal window installation in terms of seals, and of course heavier glass, heaver wood to hold and trim it. non-hardening caulk, silicone desiccants for absorbing moisture. etc

What's up everyone. Well we are FINALLY done with the framing, drywall and mudding of the place, and are ready to start in the treatment phase. I've attached the actual floor-plan (a bit tricky to do with Sketchup on a laptop) http://tinypic.com/r/15hbls3/7 The final room sizes are as followed Control Room - L - 11 ft 10 in W - 9 ft H - 7 ft 9 in Iso Booth - L - 6 ft 11 in W - 5 ft 3 in H - 7 ft 11 in Live Room - L - 11 ft 10 in W - 6 ft 5 in H - 8 ft We were originally pitching for the complete inside-out wall treatment (frame/insulation/fabric) but due to some budget changes, we are now directed to just doing bass traps and mounting treatment panels on the drywall. The back-wall of the control room is a bit tricky for building the bass traps on it due to the corner measurements, so don't really know how to direct my self to this, if to mount 4 inch thick panels, or if you guys have any other suggestions, we are open to any. Flooring will be wood, and we will use clouds in the rooms. We just got today a really good deal in some 24x48 and 2 inch and 3 inch thick mineral wool that we plan to use on the bass-traps and the panels. A quick question - how wide should the bass trap frames be? I've looked for this info and have not found anything. Also if in the back wall we go with just mounting the panels on the wall, can we angle them to cause the non-parallel walls, and sort of a diffusor wall as well? We are going to GIY the acoustic panels, should we leave them open backed and can we mount them spaced 2 inches off the wall, or should we just mount them directly on the drywall. We are almost getting done with the window frames, windows should be up no later than next week, finally as well. If any more info is needed, do not hesitate on asking, we will also post some pics of the place tomorrow. Thanks for all your help guys.

leverage the wall-ceiling "corners" for super chunk style trapping. on the back wall, 4" deep absorbers looks like about as much as you will get. use several clouds for creating the ceiling angles. download/file.php?id=35086&mode=view in the live room and booth - use slats across the corners or use slats on smaller angles to preserve space. scattered absorption on the ceilings.

gullfo wrote:

leverage the wall-ceiling "corners" for super chunk style trapping. on the back wall, 4" deep absorbers looks like about as much as you will get. use several clouds for creating the ceiling angles. download/file.php?id=35086&mode=view in the live room and booth - use slats across the corners or use slats on smaller angles to preserve space. scattered absorption on the ceilings.

Gullfo, thanks for the reply.. Im kind of but no sure on what you mean on the wall-ceiling corners with super chunk? And as for the slats in thr rooms.. is it of high neccessity as we are trying to keep this under a budget.. if it is an issue, how would you recommend the design of the slats and where should be place them Also with the wall ceiling bass traps.. should we do them in the front corners too.. or its not neccessary. Thanks again for your help

i'd probably put super chunks in all wall-ceiling corners to maximize the trapping - see the pic i provided - the front and back show it but you'd do the same on the side walls as well. the slat's aren't necessarily expensive - you can use MDF or plywood and cut the openings as needed. you could also consider polys in the corners.

gullfo wrote:

i'd probably put super chunks in all wall-ceiling corners to maximize the trapping - see the pic i provided - the front and back show it but you'd do the same on the side walls as well. the slat's aren't necessarily expensive - you can use MDF or plywood and cut the openings as needed. you could also consider polys in the corners.

Thanks man So making the slats would be like doing the corner bass traps, but with the wood slats on it.. or would it be a frame (2x4) with the insulation and fabric and wood on it.. or do i fill the corner with the insulation. Also how wide should the framing for the bass traps be.. 2 ft by 2 ft on the corner or what? about the back control room wall. We plan on mounting some panels as well (4 to start) can we angle them but mounted on the wall to give the wall a non parallel effect? or should we just mount them straight on.. If anything i will have a floorplan on what we plan on doing.. hopefully were going on the right track. We are still open to any suggestions to get this place right Thanks to everyone..

2'x2' on the corners works nicely. slat/slot configuration TBD.

gullfo wrote:

2'x2' on the corners works nicely. slat/slot configuration TBD.

What about the arrangement of the rear wall panels.. Can or should diffusors be used in the rear wall of the control room?

since the depth is shallow, i'd just make it 2'x4'x4" cloth absorbers, if you can 4" off the wall that will help, and leave about 12" between them. put one absorber on each door as well.