Need some advise for new design.

What's up guys. Well, attached is the skp. file and a jpeg. file of our place, located in North Miami Beach, FL. Some info. Our place is a warehouse with office spaces built in already, and with some original construction that can not be taken down or moved (shown in files) We were planning a 3 room design. Something that would include a control room, a iso booth (vocal/guitar/etc.) and a decent size room for some drum tracking, etc. The iso booth is off to the left of the control room, the control room in the middle, and the live room to the right. The wall that divides the iso and control room can be modded for a window/door, but can't be moved, or taken down :? The wall to the right that divides the control room from the live room, as of right now, its a skeleton wall, its 8 1/2 in. thick and we planned on filling with mineral wool, making a dual leaf system, but we decided to stop before we mest things up. That wall can get moved/modified,etc. The ceilings of the rooms are the following; Iso Booth has open ceiling to the warehouse, but the ceiling is lined with roxul panels. Control room has a sheetrock ceiling, with common house insulation and warehouse ceiling lined with roxul. Live room is as the same as the iso booth. As of right now due to budget, we were planning on just working on getting the control room/iso booth, to atleast track vocals, and get to work on the live room once we have some more money. We were planning on just doing a double leaf design, with some walls being a wood,insulation,fabric wall and some finished in sheetrock with acoustic panels on them, but if there is a better recommended way, we will go with that. Flooring is all carpet as of right now, with future plans for wood laminate from home depot. Equipment in the room as of now will be simple Pro Tools LE system, planning to record (if drum room is possible) of no more of 8-10 at a time. We have an other recording studio next door, with a huge monitoring system, but barely any acoustics, so some of the bass comes thru, but not for long periods of times, no longer than 20-30 minutes. If more info is needed, just ask away. Thanks in advance, and all suggestions, plans, etc. are all apreciated. Plans say that ceiling is drop office ceiling, but we have done some modifications, and we still dont know where to place the door/window for the iso booth. Sorry... Thanks -Kalet

Hey everybody, been doing some strong research and have gotten some useful information, but still dont know how to put it into plan in our design. As of right now we are only focusing in the control room / iso booth.. not yet on the live room due to some budget issues. We were thinking on a sheetrock wall with panels on them, due to budget issues. We are going to take off one of the faces of the non movable wall from the iso booth and fill it with insulation and do the second leaf around the room, finish it off with sheetrock and hand make the acoustic panels.. The ceiling is going to be done the same way. Dont know yet how to work on the control room design.. we are open to any suggestions.. Thanks in advance..

so the ceiling is not something you can take down and replace? (preferably with a taller ceiling say 14' etc?) what do the 2 doors do? do you need both?

gullfo wrote:

so the ceiling is not something you can take down and replace? (preferably with a taller ceiling say 14' etc?) what do the 2 doors do? do you need both?

Hey gullfo, whats up.. ok.. the top left corner opening is where we plan on putting the window to the booth.. the bottom left is a door that leads to the places hallway.. where we would like to us it to go around to the iso booth door.. the opening in the back of the control room is where we planned to place a door that we door need to access the control room... the opening in the back/right is for a planned door to go into the live room to the right... and the ceiling cant be raised because we only have about 1 foot more which is the warehouse ceiling where the electrical and a/c is setup... Thanks for the heads up..

Kalet, Window into the booth or tracking room should be out of the early reflection zone. I would recommend facing the wall at the top of the drawing and go from there. Start by setting the mix position about 54 inches from the wall in front of you and your speaker in a equilateral triangle. Trace the 'bounce' from the walls to the mix position with a mirror - do the same for the ceiling. Then position your viewing window out of that reflection zone. Cheers, John

jhbrandt wrote:

Kalet, Window into the booth or tracking room should be out of the early reflection zone. I would recommend facing the wall at the top of the drawing and go from there. Start by setting the mix position about 54 inches from the wall in front of you and your speaker in a equilateral triangle. Trace the 'bounce' from the walls to the mix position with a mirror - do the same for the ceiling. Then position your viewing window out of that reflection zone. Cheers, John

This is more or less the layout we were trying to go for.. non of the windows have been installed yet.. so we can do some modifications.. but that wall that divides the control room and the iso booth.. the top left one can only be modded for window/door.. not moved or anything (bummer) Thanks for all your help guys.. really need it.. a pain of a place..

if you can move the window down a bit you could also angle a window inside the control room and get lots of visibility into the iso-booth without too much worry about reflections. you could put up heavy drapes on either side as needed for mix down. i would put soffits (not baffles...) overhead above the door area for bass trapping since you have limited wall space.

WOW!! that looks nice.. but a few quick questions.. - You think that the "live room" would be good for tracking drums - As of right now we are a bit tight on budget... (really tight) any other design/ideas we can use to get some good sound/isolation.. with out this much material use.. just a suggestion.. and if there is.. what do you recommend us to use.. And we still to build the wood framing to fill with the insulation for soundproofing. The walls that are up now are not sound proofed at all... so were going to need that too.. Guessing that the plans that you have showed now would change.. Thanks for the help man.. that plan looks awesome..

i'd focus on getting the isolation you need first. then plan on building out the treatments as needed to get the room as balanced as you can. since this is a commercial venture, you should talk to some investors to see if you can get a line of credit etc needed to build it correctly...

gullfo wrote:

i'd focus on getting the isolation you need first. then plan on building out the treatments as needed to get the room as balanced as you can. since this is a commercial venture, you should talk to some investors to see if you can get a line of credit etc needed to build it correctly...

Were in the process of getting to that stage of the build.. So what should I focus on now.. doing the double leaf structure to isolate, and then i focus on a plan like the one you sent?? Thanks for everything.. you guys are the best! Edit: How do you recommend me to do the framing for the isolation for these rooms.. Just the normal 1 inch air gap and 2x4 wood framing with insulation in it and cover in what.. Fabric or sheetrock.. I know there is alot of information in here, but just want to know what would work perfect in this situation.. Thanks guys!

i'd make the isolation walls rectangular so you can easily build it and add the angled wall treatments later. isolation should follow best practices - double leaf with maximum air gap you can afford dampened with insulation and sealed all around, etc. etc. the window space would be inset into the control room to ensure isolation follows the wall angles. 2x 5/8 (16mm) drywall, optionally use green glue. plenty of guidance on the isolation structure is found on this site.

gullfo wrote:

i'd make the isolation walls rectangular so you can easily build it and add the angled wall treatments later. isolation should follow best practices - double leaf with maximum air gap you can afford dampened with insulation and sealed all around, etc. etc. the window space would be inset into the control room to ensure isolation follows the wall angles. 2x 5/8 (16mm) drywall, optionally use green glue. plenty of guidance on the isolation structure is found on this site.

Glenn, thanks for all your help.. So i should just focus on doing the normal walls around the rooms.. and then focus on either the angled walls or normal panels hung on the sheetrock.. Once i finish the 2nd wall.. whats better to finish it in sheetrock.. cause in the booth we were planning to cover it with fabric all around.. do you recommend this or not.. Im asking because of the budget issue and we want to get to work asap.. atleast in the vocal booth to track some vocals and then focus on the live room and fixing everything else..

Once i finish the 2nd wall.. whats better to finish it in sheetrock.. cause in the booth we were planning to cover it with fabric all around.. do you recommend this or not..

You seem to be confusing "isolation" with "treatment". In order to isolate the room, both leaves of the wall (inner leaf and outer leaf) MUST be made of sheetrock (or some other heavy, dense material). You cannot make a "leaf" out of cloth. Depending on how you build the frames to support your leaves, you might be left with the studs of the inner-leaf facing the room, in which case your construction is called "inside-out". In that case, you CANNOT put sheetrock on those studs, because if you did then you would have a three-leaf wall, which will actually damage your isolation (make it worse). So, if you are building inside-out, then you will have studs facing the room. You can now install treatment between those studs, and part of that treatment might include insulation between the studs, covered with cloth. Doing that in your booth, that would be a good idea, IF you are building it inside-out. Maybe you could draw a sketch of what you have in mind and post it here, to make sure that you are doing things right. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Once i finish the 2nd wall.. whats better to finish it in sheetrock.. cause in the booth we were planning to cover it with fabric all around.. do you recommend this or not..

You seem to be confusing "isolation" with "treatment". In order to isolate the room, both leaves of the wall (inner leaf and outer leaf) MUST be made of sheetrock (or some other heavy, dense material). You cannot make a "leaf" out of cloth. Depending on how you build the frames to support your leaves, you might be left with the studs of the inner-leaf facing the room, in which case your construction is called "inside-out". In that case, you CANNOT put sheetrock on those studs, because if you did then you would have a three-leaf wall, which will actually damage your isolation (make it worse). So, if you are building inside-out, then you will have studs facing the room. You can now install treatment between those studs, and part of that treatment might include insulation between the studs, covered with cloth. Doing that in your booth, that would be a good idea, IF you are building it inside-out. Maybe you could draw a sketch of what you have in mind and post it here, to make sure that you are doing things right. - Stuart -

Yeah i am a bit confused.. I have an idea about the wood framing, insulation, air gap.. etc.. but i dont know how to finish off the walls.. Do i leave them open / cover in fabric.. cover them with sheetrock.. or build the angled frame in front or out of this... Im sorry if Im bothering to much about this.. just want to get it right the first time.. Thanks for everyone's help..

What you are showing in your diagram looks like it is the inner-leaf of your MSM wall. Is that correct? Since you are showing a 1" space between that stud frame and the outer-leaf, and teh "outer leaf" seems to be made of concrete or brick on that diagram, then you have to put sheetrock on that frame, on the side facing the room. That will give you enough air gap to have good isolation. Your diagram does not show the ceiling. For the ceiling you should do the same as for the walls: Lay joists across the tops of the walls, leaving a gap above. Fill the gap with insulation, and hang sheetrock underneath the joists. But if you don't know how to do that safely yourself (in terms of construction technique, span, structural integrity, etc.) then you should probably hire someone that does know, to do it for you. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

What you are showing in your diagram looks like it is the inner-leaf of your MSM wall. Is that correct? Since you are showing a 1" space between that stud frame and the outer-leaf, and teh "outer leaf" seems to be made of concrete or brick on that diagram, then you have to put sheetrock on that frame, on the side facing the room. That will give you enough air gap to have good isolation. Your diagram does not show the ceiling. For the ceiling you should do the same as for the walls: Lay joists across the tops of the walls, leaving a gap above. Fill the gap with insulation, and hang sheetrock underneath the joists. But if you don't know how to do that safely yourself (in terms of construction technique, span, structural integrity, etc.) then you should probably hire someone that does know, to do it for you. - Stuart -

Hey man thanks for the help We plan on doing everything our selfs.. a buddy of ours is helping us with the build So i build the frame, cover with sheetrock.. (1 or 2 layers?) and in front of that build the angled walls ( i could do the fabric on this).. or cover that wall with hanged acoustic panels.. ?? For the ceiling we are doing the same as the walls, filling it with insulation and finishing it off with sheetrock.. Thanks

it can get confusing but basically create the isolation walls/ceiling without regard for treatment and you'll end up with (mostly) rectangular rooms. if you can do normal safe construction then taking the next steps (the detailed ones) of properly sealing and insulating etc should be straight forward. as Stuart points out, if you're not used to doing proper construction, consider having someone else do the work because the isolation walls/ceiling are going to be much heavier than normal and mistakes could result in your studio collapsing on you or someone else. when in doubt, get a structural engineer to help. in fact, your building codes may require it. in general, you are creating 2 back to back walls which have the drywall layers on the inside of the room and you are leaving a gap between the frames. behind the drywall you are adding insulation to dampen the resonances of the drywall and to convert the acoustic energy being transferred via the air spring (air gap between the walls) into heat (via friction) before transferring to the other wall. you can find many many examples of this construction on the site.

Thanks Glenn.. I know im jumping ahead a bit too much.. but once the frame, insulation and sheetrock go up.. and everything gets mudded/sealed.. then we can either choose to do the angled walls or hang acoustic panels (the route we might go for now). And another question.. when putting up the wall frames.. i know that we have to bolt it to the existing concrete slab.. with some type of rubber to isolate it from the floor.. what else do you recommend.. and when bolted down, do you recommend holding it against the wall with something.. or just keep it bolted to the floor.. Thanks for all your help..

you should use wall isolation clips (PAC INTL, WIC, etc) to make sure it is held steady. you could also use isolation supports for the ceiling to take some load off the walls and maybe even get some decoupling between the walls and ceiling. yeah, once you have the isolation in place (windows, doors too), you can work out the treatment options. bear in mind you still want to finalize your room ratios before doing this work to make sure you have them as good as they can be given your needs and budget. spend some time with the mode calculators and try a number of different ratios in each space to see how you can balance the space versus best mode distribution. for every trade-off made for less balance you'll pay for it in space consumed by treatments...

I get it.. these wall isolation clips that your talking about go into the original concrete wall and they hold up the frame.. do the frames rest on these clips with the bottom bolted to the slab.. or just hold it in place while the frame is bolted to the slab.. And the ceiling.. do the clips just hold/hang it in place.. or work as a support.. cause what we planned for the ceiling was to run 2x4 holded on each side with these clips or something similar.. the filled with insulation and finish them with sheetrock.. http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Builders-Hardware/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg2Zaqzs/R-100374935/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 How would we mount the ceiling clips when the actual warehouse ceiling is like a 1ft higher..? Can you explain a little more about the room modes? Thanks guys for all your help..

here's an example of ceiling hangers http://www.mason-industries.com/masonin ... /ch620.pdf if you're planning on making the walls load bearing for supporting the ceiling that's an option also. on room ratios, you want to pick the best room ratio which can fit your space and meets your needs for your equipment and usage. there will be trade-offs made. each one will have a subsequent impact on how your studio behaves and some things will have have to get used to and in others spend some time/money to get it as best as you can. poor mode distribution means your environment will be less optimal for performing and monitoring without a lot of treatments which consume space etc. there is no free lunch...

gullfo wrote:

here's an example of ceiling hangers http://www.mason-industries.com/masonin ... /ch620.pdf if you're planning on making the walls load bearing for supporting the ceiling that's an option also. on room ratios, you want to pick the best room ratio which can fit your space and meets your needs for your equipment and usage. there will be trade-offs made. each one will have a subsequent impact on how your studio behaves and some things will have have to get used to and in others spend some time/money to get it as best as you can. poor mode distribution means your environment will be less optimal for performing and monitoring without a lot of treatments which consume space etc. there is no free lunch...

Thanks Glenn I understand the whole thing about the wall and ceiling clips.. Hope to find a good deal on them. But still dont understand the whole deal with the modes.. Gotta do some more research on it.. Are you talking about the room layout as gear positioning or treatment positioning. Im still going to search it up Thanks..

Ensonix Studios wrote:

and when bolted down, do you recommend holding it against the wall with something.. or just keep it bolted to the floor.. Thanks for all your help..

Or install 1/2" OSB vertically on the studs around the entire perimeter of the inside of the room. This in effect adds the structural rigidity the walls need to stand erect. Assuming that Dade county code allows this in your hurricane prone area. Your guys that know how to build will have done this but it will have been on the exterior of wood framed structures. Nailing is as critical on this interior application as it is on an exterior application.

xSpace wrote:

Ensonix Studios wrote:

and when bolted down, do you recommend holding it against the wall with something.. or just keep it bolted to the floor.. Thanks for all your help..

Or install 1/2" OSB vertically on the studs around the entire perimeter of the inside of the room. This in effect adds the structural rigidity the walls need to stand erect. Assuming that Dade county code allows this in your hurricane prone area. Your guys that know how to build will have done this but it will have been on the exterior of wood framed structures. Nailing is as critical on this interior application as it is on an exterior application.

xSpace thanks for the info.. So we do the 1inch air gap, wood framing stuffed with the insulation, screw on the 1/2 OSB and then the sheetrock.. I wanted to know if we use anything when we put up the wall frames.. they dont hold with anything in/against the wall.. they just get bolted down into the concrete and thats it.. Thanks for joining and giving your help.. Well appriciated

A few other questions.. With the whole deal of the modes which I still dont understand (if it has to do with gear placement) I was thinking of facing the top wall in the control room.. I dont know if thats what you guys mean by the room modes/ratios... or does it have to do with some thing else.. Thanks a ton for everything!