UAN - new Control Room build

Ahh Glenn, Thanks again! :) progress report ... well, today was a day that took care of an issue that I just should have done from the get go. :? I had my electric friend over this morning to FINALLY clear out [re-route] the last of the overhead wires in the ceiling above. I was trying to be conservative, and not disturb the house ... but the more I looked at the design & build, the work & possible compromise was just not worth it. We are now ................... 'Bin Free' ! :yahoo: Now I can choose to go with 2x8's for the new rafters. This guy does very nice work ... like he'd be doing for his studio. We did have to pull a new line through the upstairs floor [as expected], but it all went very smooth. There was 1 line [2 conductor] that was spliced across a joist, then it continued up into the ceiling joist out toward the garage. I measured 6.4 vac across it. Nobody seemed to be certain exactly what that line is for ?!?! Might be a 'heater wrap' for the line in the garage, a possible doorbell line that was never installed, or ... maybe the launch circuit for NORAD. Since I've NOT heard anything on CNN, and everything else is working fine ... it will remain the proverbial mystery :? This evening, another brother stopped in and we carried down 16 2x4x14' into the basement. Mostly needed someone to help navigate down the stairs and over the pile stack on the other side of the basement. I've enclosed a quick photo of the cleared out rafters, though it's tough to get a good perspective to get a shot off. No word yet on a lead carpenter :? I'm readying myself for solo mode. I've been 'boning' up on framing techniques. I did see something interesting on framing corners. In one example, they used the double end studs & then a 'turned' stud to provide drywall attach area. But in another example, I saw the use of 3 2x4 studs together. Almost like a door jam area. I wonder WHICH is the better way for my build. Any thoughts on this ??? In the meantime, waiting to hear back from contractor bro :) That's all the news that's fit to print !

Good meeting with contractor Bro this afternoon, to review the room & scope out any potential issues. A question has come regarding 'TOP Plates' [again] :? OK ... definitely understood that the INNER walls [with ceiling rafter support duties] would require a double top plate. The BIG question/problem ... to figure out HOW to attach the very top plate due to the restriction of working area inside the joist bins ?!?!? Maybe I need to track down an angled drill gun ? or should we consider a dab of 'Liquid Nails' at those corners ??? The SECOND question, again the dbl top plates, now for the 2 outer walls. I have the lumber, so that's not the issue, but my brother [nor I] understand the need for dbl top plates for the walls that will connect to the joist above ??? They 'may' be considered somewhat of an assist to support the joist. The other important factor may be to provide structure to the outer wall with major consideration of the Super Door?!? Again ... the main issue is HOW to attach these areas ... physically. I know we've talked about this. I'll be scanning through 'other' builds to see what was done, but I've not yet found a clear working solution. Thank-you again for your help on all this. We look to begin wall construction this Tuesday. Wow .... :) Sincerely.

before you add any additional studs in the corner for nailers, you could drive the fasteners up through the corners where the plates join...

RJHollins wrote:

The BIG question/problem ... to figure out HOW to attach the very top plate due to the restriction of working area inside the joist bins ?!?!?

I'm confused by that question, probably me not understanding. The top plate of the wall should not be inside the bins as far as I know. You usually need some blocking between joists for nailers when framing your wall parallel to the joists so that you have something to nail to. Getting the blocking in is where you usually run into clearance problems.

Hi Fallenmonk, The 'top plate' in question is on the 'inner room' build. The 'room' that will NOT be attach to any of the existing structure [just the floor will be common]. The joist depth that I have is now 6 3/4" ... this is due to the 1" of Formular to cover the protruding nails, and then 2 layers of 5/8" drywall over that. The other bad issue is that the available ceiling height is ~ 7'. Because of this, I need to grab every fraction I can get, so I'm looking to set the new ceiling rafter height to a 1/2" BELOW the structure joist bottoms. Trying to hammer or screw the top plate from the TOP is what I'd prefer. To that hope, I did pick up a $20 attachment for the drill ... its' a 90* converter. Thinking of using deck screws with a type of star driver head. This may be very wishful on my part. The 'back-up' plan is to go as Glenn suggests [THANK-YOU]. Anyway ... kinda beat today. We actually started framing the walls. The lead guy that was going to do this is out sick, so my brother had some time open. I know we didn't get as much done as HE thought we would, nonetheless, we got a lot done on the outer wall. It is amazing the issue that come up during the actual building process. Needless to say, the idea of a SQUARE wall [or anything] in a 50 year old house is a total fantasy :shock: :? Number 2 ... have a small sledge hammer on standby ... and 3 ... it is wise to order extra lumber. Not saying ya need this ... but ... if ya do, you have something to beat it into submission, or a new replacement piece :mrgreen: Tomorrow we look to tidy up a couple spots, and maybe start laying out the inner room. :)

on squareness - my last house was balloon framed from the mid-20's and the builders were magicians... measuring the plaster you were about 1/2" out in any direction. ripping it down to the "real" 2x4 framing (actually 2x4) you find 2"-3" out easily depending on pre-lunch or post-lunch work :wink: it took a lot of shimming to get modern materials to fit back in especially actually square windows when the originals were all hand cut... :|

RJHollins wrote:

The 'top plate' in question is on the 'inner room' build. The 'room' that will NOT be attach to any of the existing structure [just the floor will be common].

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. :)

Not having much to go on (picture wise) your interior walls are under no seismic load so adding the top plate before the wall every gets stood erect is the easy way out. You are assuming that you have to tie the corners together but this isn't specifically so. Top plate from end to end, raise the wall, brace the wall, and repeat. Nail the corner studs securely. If you have not considered installing OSB sheathing onto the face of your interior wall assembly for rigidity, do so now :). As another option if it just keeps you up at night, run the top plate as typical (within 3 3/4" of the end(s) stand up, build the next supporting wall frame and top plate to within 4 feet of the end and stand that one up. Secure the corner studs and cut your top plate piece, about 4 feet, and install the shorter piece rather than trying to do the whole length of the wall. The hard part comes when trying to attach the joists :)

All great tips !!! Thanks everyone ... :) Today was another bit of room construction ... gotta grab the BRO whenever he's available ! I must say its been 'interesting' building in a REAL 3D space :roll: ... I thought SketchUP was a challenge :shock: All I can say is I WISH that home basements didn't need to have sump pumps :| with a slope in the floor. oh well. Anyway ... we have the outer frame built and placed. Did some 'fine' tuning of that 1st thing today. Then we started on the inner walls. I did the 'string line' in the joist to get us a measure down point for the inner walls, we then had 3 2x4 chunks [1-PT, 2-regular], nailed together for use as a reference to measure up to the string line that was set 1/2" below joist. We laid out each wall on the floor for nailing, square-ing [?], and nailing on temp cross bracing. We are using these trigger clamps to hold corners ... and I screwed in temp spacing blocks to the outer frame. I DO have some pics [really I do] ... but since the 'theater-of-operation' required max space, it's tough to get any kind of angle to shoot from ... plus when the BRO gets going ... its kinda none stop. So, after a very early morning rehearsal, the plan is to get on to further building ! OH ... remember that band ... maybe big in the 80's, called 'BASHED THUMB' ... had a session with them first thing this morning :cen: Are we supposed to break blood blisters ?, or .... feed a cold ... I can never keep that straight. :|

OK ... getting some pics together ... in the meantime. As we continue to assemble walls, the issue of ceiling rafter material is under review :| Due to the limits of the upper joist bin depths ~ 6 3/4", AND the desire to maintain the tallest ceiling in the CR ... about 82" :evil: I was considering premium 2x6's to span the 12'-4" length. Besides the lumber itself, adding 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, GreenGlued, and the expected lighting & AC vents ... the lumber guys say we OK with 2x6's ... However, my contractor brother is NOT satisfied. He is looking into something called LSL beams [laminated strand lumber]. My only question was whether it can take drywall screws on the narrow side ? Any experience with LSL ???

A few pix from the past few sessions. I should note that it was tough to stop and snap any off during the build. The Bro likes to keep it moving ! To give a sense ... We started on the 2 outer frame walls to establish the structure perimeter, while also getting a feel for the building variations. Because I had purchased full plate lengths, the decision was to maximize floor & joist contact by custom cutting the studs at each placement. Once the plates were 24"oc marked off, we placed 2 blocks on the floor and measure up to the joist bottoms. From there we were able to build the wall laid out on the floor, and then nudge into position. OK ... so maybe more than nudge ... but the bad boys lined up, and we level & plumbed them. We did NOT yet fix them to the building until we are certain how everything was going to lay out with real lumber. But they were not going to move ... we did drive a 'friction' nail in just to be sure the bottom lines stayed. The next day we did a couple of lite adjustments to the outers as we verified our measurements & alignment. From there the inner wall build was started. Although tough to see in the photos, I had gone into the joist with screws and a string tie off 1/2" below. This allowed us to get stud length measurements across the entire span at each location. Then with 3 2x4 blocks [1 PT, & 2 standard] nailed together, we then could measure from the blocks to the string line to get stud lengths. Again, we did custom cuts on all these. Walls were again assembled on the floor. We did temporarily square them, and cross- braced with furring strips with finishing nails. We soon realized that THAT was unnecessary as the wall frames were very solid. More solid than I thought they'd be ... much to the scorned look from BRO :oops: Anyway ... he does humor me at times :) Our third session [today] was to finish the remaining inner wall build. First up was to check our previous work, and then, testing layout strategy for the inner room. As many know [or will find out] ... what LOOKS like a straight concrete wall or floor can be shockingly off. When you add variations in more than one plane [walls, floors, ceiling], the placement and alignment of the new build can be quite tricky. You adjust one corner, then the other is out. You move a wall, and the next walls spacing gets goofy. The priority was to maintain a consistent double wall where the Super Door was going. The 'hinge' side kick in wall was then squared, which became a reference to the kick-in wall on the other side of the room. We also measured out from the front wall to the kick wall, and transfered those measurements to the wall along the side foundation. Again, it was a bit tricky, but it did come together. Tomorrow we again get together to install the very top plates for the room. It will be at that time the re-checking and adjustments will take place. To this end, we held out installing any of the corner 'nailer' studs, as the suggestion by Glenn to leave access to screw top plates from underneath. Should that be the way we go, we will then add the 'nailer's' afterward. Still much to do ... but I'm liking what we have so far ! Once the plates are on and the alignment is set, then we go about sinking the anchors for the bottom plate. Coming up soon ... da door. Right now the framing is left open to give us the most flex in placement. But BEFORE that, we are waiting on ceiling rafter answers regarding the 'Laminated Stranded Lumber' and the use of drywall screws. If anyone knows the definitive answers .... please share :) OH ... and the pictures ... I took them with my phone, and the images have a barrel distortion that looks kinda weird. Thank-you!

Progress report: Well ... today was a little different order of build than what I thought ... no surprise. The Bro got in this afternoon. Did a review & check of the previous work. We also went over some of the upcoming issue. 1. The ceiling rafters. We looked into the LSL beams. The requirement of 12" oc was stipulated by the lumber guy. This was not possible without some major headache. While here, our Structural Eng called back. For a 12'-3" span, with dbl 5/8" drywall, GG, lighting, etc, AND the weight of the beams, we can use DBL 2x6's [glued & nailed] as a single rafter beam. 2. Our insulation guy is coming in to spec out the room. So ... onto the next step. Bro started checking the corner square ... then he throws the 3 - 4 - 5 maneuver on it, said we need to shift a 1/4", rechecks ... says 'balls on'. I throw a square on it ... sure 'nough ... 'balls on' :shock: Anchor this corner ... I'm like, well, OK but shouldn't we ah ah ...., LOCK IT DOWN ... ok, I get out the hammer drill, a regular drill, my anchor spikes, hammer and the shop vac. The hammer drill put a smile on Bro. We proceeded to insert and hammer home the floor plate. This was done right down the line. I was getting nervous as we got to the back of the room. I'm thinking we are going to have to trash and rebuild the back wall. So here we are anchoring THAT wall :shock: I'm like ... oh man ... So on we go ... we get to the last corner, and I can't look [but my astral body is crawling over his shoulder to have a peek. He sets in the square, I hear one tap from the hammer, and then ........... 'balls on'. I jumped in staring at the corner with square, and after the stunned cleared, I looked and said ... it is 'balls on' ! :shock: :yahoo: That's it .... we're taking the rest of the night off. :mrgreen: I did manage a couple of pix shots ... Tomorrow we get together to then attach the top, top plate. Once that is all locked in, we can then add all the addition 'nailer' studs [about 15+ of them]. There was probably more ... just can't recall at the moment ... :| Anyway ........ :yahoo: Kinda happy :mrgreen:

berry berry nice! on the LSL, my read up on them seemed to indicate better than 12" oc (ie 16" oc would be ok) but best to go with people who know the materials. http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/cal ... pan#answer

oooo wow ... Glenn ... I was waiting to hear from you !! I'm glad that YOU didn't see anything wrong with what we've done to this point ! I know that the pix don't provide a real good overview, nonetheless, I'm trying to maintain the highest level of build that possible [given the environment challenge]. We had to pause any build today [no babysitter]. That fine, as other things had to happen. Called in the rafter order today. Have 30 2x6x14' coming in tomorrow @ noon. Also ... just had the insulation guy over to scope out both the CR, and to look at issues on the house in general. I have a 10' iceberg hanging from a back yard gutter that says something is wrong! :evil: He was intrigued by what was going on with the build, and the requirements. The treatment for the framed walls is nothing special ... so we mainly we sus'ing out how to deal with the joist bins. The is ONE bit of confusion [on my part] ... just HOW MUCH is TOO MUCH compression of insulation :?: :?: :!: Thanks !

you want to avoid coupling but ensure enough pressure on the inner ceiling to dampen it. gravity helps in this regard. in general, don't compress pink insulation more than say 20-30%. if necessary you might slit the insulation a bit so it flows around the joists and keep it from compressing too much.

"Called in the rafter order today." Joists...

Thanks Brien for the correction ! In my effort to separation the distinction between the existing floor joist, and the build of the new ceiling ... it was confusing to explain. Nonetheless ... I appreciate being corrected. :) Thank-you. Progress report ... Had a small delivery of insulation. We started with a 2-bagger. Before: After: The pix only shows the 8' run ... I have since filled the bins the full length, short a few, as a couple of 'extra' pieces were kinda dogs. I'll use them elsewhere. Once the ceiling joist are installed, I'll have a better sense of how to complete this part. A side observation. When this project began, I had a fair recollection of sound transferring between floors. When the original ceiling tiles were removed, it was if the floor was not even there. So the beef up process began. 1st layer, caulked & sealed. Then the 2nd layer with GG sandwich, caulked & sealed. Furring strips add with C & S. After all that effort, I must say I was rather disappointed with the level of sound transferring through. Maybe concern would be a better word. I had been rechecking my work, ensuring good seals throughout. Granted, the rest of the basement had nothing done to it, so the sound just traveled everywhere. Now comes the first install of attic insulation. If the word 'dramatic' could apply .... the transformation that has taken place is quite impressive. I'm not just speaking to the large absorptive surface that now covers beef drywall, but for the first time, the upstairs voices are more like murmurings. Yes I can understand the conversation, but this requires focusing in on it. I'm not explaining this too well ... and I understand that that we are early in the build process ... yet we just had a magnitude jump. I am encouraged :) And then, yet another delivery ... These guys show up with the cherry picker truck. Then proceed to swing it out over the top of the cars ! :shock: and place it in front of the garage :) . Premium grade 2x6x14' .... 30 of them :yahoo: Well ... we'll see what the weekend schedule is! My, usual, BIG THANKS for all the guidance, instruction, and education in this quest! Sincerely

Here's a quick question ... With the 2x4 framed walls in place ... 24"oc ... I've been all through Rods' 2nd edition book ... I see NO mention of installing 'block' between the 2x4 wall studs [typically seen in 16oc residential frames]. My walls are only 7 foot tall. So the question be ... do we install blocking, or leave stud cavities full height. Also ... what about the door 'area'. Basic question, I know, but I've seen some [here] putting them in, while others don't seem to have. Curious minds would like to know :?: Thanks!

adding the blocking on the walls can help improve the overall frame rigidity and provide a space for the insulation batts which will not now slide down into the bottom of the wall (using insulation hooks or mesh help here as well). plus if can also help change the wall resonance if you place the blocks in different locations on the wall (alternate 2 blocks versus 1 block per space).

Hi Glenn, hmmm ... your above post has raised several questions on this end :? Please bear with me as I try to better understand how you'd want me to proceed. I understand how blocking would improve frame rigidity ... ok there, it's the mounting of insulation AND the changing of the 'wall resonance' that concerns me :shock: 1. Insulation - I thought that we were going to use faced insulation that I would just staple to the frame between the wall studs top to bottom. 2. Wall resonance - conceptually I understand, however, I have no reference point that I would be [or even should be] changing it to !?!? From other 'teachings' you've posted, the idea of 24"oc was an 'ideal' spacing that allowed the bulky corner traps to work more effectively. OK there. :wink: I still have time before getting to the wall insulation ... till then, I'd really appreciate if you could show/tell me exactly what we should do. Like I mentioned ... I've seen some builds use blocks, while others not. Based on the size/construction of my room, I defer to your knowledge on how exactly I should be doing this, and so very much appreciate your guidance ! Sincerely. Its 'Donation' time of the month ... [which I gladly do] :mrgreen:

The rigidity and the support for the ceiling structure is the primary effect. The resonance consider is far secondary and with the mass on the walls is likely to not be a major consideration where a single layer of drywall would have some variation (however small). Since you're using faced insulation the sagging is also not likely an issue. So use the blocking in consideration of wall strength.

RJHollins wrote:

Here's a quick question ... With the 2x4 framed walls in place ... 24"oc ... I've been all through Rods' 2nd edition book ... I see NO mention of installing 'block' between the 2x4 wall studs [typically seen in 16oc residential frames]. My walls are only 7 foot tall. So the question be ... do we install blocking, or leave stud cavities full height. Also ... what about the door 'area'. Basic question, I know, but I've seen some [here] putting them in, while others don't seem to have.

Any wooden wall assembly taller than 8 feet has to have vertical blocking...in the US. Remember this is a global forum and in other countries it is "best practice" to install vertical blocking since they have been known to use heavier materials from back when...so reducing the walls/assemblies ability to bow and collapse is part of the build process. "Now comes the first install of attic insulation. If the word 'dramatic' could apply ." You knocked out the high frequencies, the area that the human voice lies in, so it does seem dramatic... Still looks good, hope to be here when you get to the end :)

To Glenn & Brien, Thank-you for helping me better understand the particulars of these special design & construction criteria. It seems all too easy to mess this up due to naivety or assumption. Tuesday we get back to the build. Top plate gets installed, and then ceiling joists get placed. Blocking between the wall studs is now on the schedule. and more :) There are more issues yet to resolve, and am thankful to the guidance I've received ! Sincerely

Progress report .... ok ... we got in a couple hours in the past two days to do some building ! First day was a short one, so we only had time to 'final' attach all the wall segments of the inner room together, checking square & plumb as we went along. We measured up the pieces needed for the very top plate. Bro had to leave :| I got all the top plate pieces cut & placed around the room for todays build. I also started prepping the blocks for the wall studs ... still a few more to rip. I also added a few more anchors into the floor plate. Had a nice system going with 2 drills, shop vac, and a hammer. The went shopping for more supplies. Today ... installing the top plates. I ended up buying, yet again, another tool :shock: We called it the 'Hairy Palm Nailer'. Bro brought over his compressor, and soon we had this thing attached. On a test piece of lumber, Bro did a dry run ... grins broke across our faces as this little bad boy rapidly pounded in a 3" nail. Very Nice !! :) With the 'test' out of the way ... we go straight to the top plate ... sneaking his hand inside the rafter, he proceeds to drive in the top nails ... again, very nice :) THEN, he litely loads a nail into this gun ... and it promptly BLOWS across the room. I'm staring at him, he at me ... I immediately think he drove a nail into his hand or something :roll: He said no, he's fine ... I'm like ... alright, lets SLOW DOWN ... get a handle on things. We NOW refer to it as the 'SCARY Palm Nailer' ! :shock: :shot: The only flaw in the design is that the nailer doesn't seem to have a magnetic head ... gotta have a word with 'Stanley' :roll: Anyway ... with due respect for the tools, we continue nailing in the top plate. Other than the one incident ... this tool is fantastic. We will call upon it soon. We dragged in 20 of the 14' 2x6's, got them measured and cut for the ceiling joist. As we discussed earlier, the decision was to go with 2 2x6/ joist. We 'snake-lined' some Liquid Nails, and the 'W' nailed 2 boards together. We used 3 clamps to align the 'main' edge so that we had a flush match. These clamps worked out great. Once nailed, we then set the joist on the top plate. I had already put a first layer of attic insulation in the bins, and we wanted to do a test fit. Well, things were a little tight up there. We had 2 choices ... pull all the insulation out, install the new joist, then re-insulate OR, we flatten the joist and slid it to one side, which put the other edge right in the middle of the bin. I grabbed this special serrated knife and basically split the insulation down the middle. We pry-ed it open, and then proceeded to roll the joist into the split into an upright position. I'm then able to dress the insulation around the joist. Not really that much fun, but it does work, and seems like the way we'll go. For grins, I HAD to do a test 'pull' on this first joist. Carefully I worked my hands up to the top of it and carefully executed a chin up. I put ALL my 192 lbs into it .... not even the slightest deflection according to Bro watching on. To me, it was solid. [of course, I'll be starting re-hab after that display] :? We are sure that a single 2x6 would have been ok ... but I am glad I went with the advice to double up. Not only for the shear strength ... but also when it comes time to screwing in drywall. Besides the surface area these guys will have [S.Wonder/R.Charles drywallers could do this], but also for the fact that I've seen how lumber can split from nails OR screws. :cop: OK ... so the Liquid Nails was probably overkill on my part :roll: but for the cost of a single tube ... I felt I could splurge :lol: We then went on to assemble and temp place the rest of the 10 joist. Tomorrow we get together to get the short joist for the back of the room assembled, and then attach all of them. I do have a couple pix, and will post them soon. It sure feels good to get something done! Sincerely

Another update !! with pix :) OK ... as promised ... a few scenes from activities here. On the shopping spree, was checking out different joist ties for the new dual-beam. And a peek at the very handy 'Palm Nailer' Some shots of the top plate going in ... we attacked this from ANY available angle ! After the dual 2x6 were Liquid Nail & nailed together ... testing the fit & install. The infamous "Hairy Palm' nailer in action ... TODAY ... We stood up and nailed in all the long ceiling joist ... 16"oc ... and did an initial spread of the insulation up there. I have to go in and fine tune this first layer, and then cut new pieces to go along the sides of the joist with enough length to comfortably contact new back of the ceiling drywall ... should be interesting :| NOW for the 'ISSUE AT HAND'. I guess NO build would be really fun without a real challenge. Oh sure, NOW you tell me I shoulda planned this better :cop: All my excuses would be lame ... AND, I still need to figure out how to solve this :| SO .... we are back in the sump pit area [appropriately named]. What we have here is the 'separation' of the outer wall from the main building, as we had to do the 'kick-in' around the dreaded drain pipe. From INSIDE the kick-in, you see the pipe in the wall .... Up above you can see the outer wall with a plate under the floor joist above. NOW ... how are we [I] gonna air-tite build a piece to close off those spaces above the bins ... AND, the open bin at the far back. Oh .... I have an idea ... which seems like it will be a real joy to perform :shock: But should ANYONE have a truly wonderful suggestion on how to tackle this area ... I welcome them with open arms :wink: ok ... off to the Depot for even more supplies ... and a rehersal :) Back tonite.