UAN - new Control Room build

OK ... question [and this might be stupid on my part], but, do we really need these furring strips in there ?? I'm just wondering what purpose[s] they fulfill AND I'm concerned about all the weight I've added to the structure. If the furring strips provide isolation, then I would need to cover both sides of the bins end-to-end. However, if these strips are only for safety and support of the 2 layers of drywall, then could/should I just install, say maybe, three 1 foot pieces [1 in the middle, and 1 on each end] ?? That would be 6 blocks in each bin. I know its' not adding THAT much more weight, but I would like to minimize extra weight if possible. Thanks for your insight and guidance ! Sincerely.

yea, the furring strips ensure everything stays in place. the caulking and bead only seal it. you could space them but a continuous strip will ensure the caulking doesn't fall out layer due to aging or vibrations.

Progress report. OK ... well between the holidaze, I've been able to get some work on the room. The pile of furring strips were pre-drilled, and then screwed into place on both sides of the joist. I then threw another caulking party ... once again, nobody showed up :? [I may need to change the party brochure the next time] :!: Anyway ... another case [I've almost lost count] of caulking went in on all seams of the furring strips. The smell of silicon still lingers, as I have a small fan blowing out the room through window and opened door to the garage. The 'body' has taken a slight beating ... but my hands and arms now have the strength of a small farm animal :o [of course, any of the finer, subtle jazz drumming technique has been temporarily compromised due to strained wrist and fingers :? ] I do have high hopes that I could set-up a small kit in the back of the room and be able to practice without bothering anyone ... ahhh, that would be truly wonderful 8) If we can ... I'd like to proceed to the next step ... getting insulation up there ! ?? But have a question, please: ?? My bins are roughly 6-3/4" deep [from drywall to bottom of joist]. I would like to use the non-itch version of faceless fluffy insulation. Went to Home Depot, and they were out-of-stock, and my lumber company doesn't sell that type. Once I DO find it, I'm wondering what thickness I should buy. It seems the common choices are [R-19] 6-1/4", or [R-30] 9-1/2". Recall ... I will be having new ceiling rafters running down the middle of the existing joist above. Oh ... and another important question. I had removed the cross-bracing in order to do this 'beef up'. Do I need to address this :?: Blocking ??? The new rafters are looking to be 2x6 's, mounted ~ 1/2" below the bottom of the joist [trying to keep the ceiling as high as possible]. I MUST say that the upstairs floor [with the new beefing below] has NEVER felt more solid. Most all of the squeaky floor is gone. It just feels very solid. In fact, it appears that the hardwood floor seams 'may' have spaced a tad. Like the overall floor is more level, and doesn't have that spongey feel. The 'other side' of the upstairs floor feels the same, with the slight spongy and squeaks. I will NOT be doing the other side [any time soon :cop: :shot: ] Anyway ... any and all observation/guidance is very welcomed on this ! Thanks you once again .... and HAPPY NEW YEAR :mrgreen:

you should put bracing on the joists if they are larger than 2x8. i'd say if you have joists nesting into that space between the existing ones, go with the R19. that should lightly the new ceiling drywall to ensure it's damped. on your next brochure, just advertise you need help applying "cream" onto a number of studio groupies who like to be horizontal and be rubbed by strong manly men... :twisted: it's only a slight mis-characterization... :roll:

Hi Glenn, I love the brochure idea !! Gee, I was even getting fired up for another round :twisted: :lol: Anywho ... Glenn, sorry to pester on these small details, but I don't want to mess up with your design. The ' joist blocking'. The existing floor joist: They are 1-5/8" x 9" x 13'-6". [Douglas Fir] Obviously after adding the 1" Formular, and the 2 layers of 5/8 drywall, the bin depth is now 6 3/4". With my brother being both a contractor AND a registered house inspector, I'm sure he'll have a ruling ... but my specific question [besides structural safety & integrity] would also include any 'acoustical' considerations? [I still have alot to learn regarding this Science, and want to be sure that in my ignorance, that I didn't ask the question of one who knows]. 2nd question ... would like to do a Monday ordering if possible :) Insulation depth. Online I see that Johns Manville has an R-22 which is 7 1/2" thick [no idea if this is available locally]. Maybe the installers my brother uses have access ? if not, I want to be sure I'm following correctly so ... let me ask: Is there to be [or not to be] any open air gap between the floor above and the top of the new CR ceiling ?? R-19 being 6 1/4" thick, and litely touching the top of CR ceiling, may have a depth of 7 1/2". This may leave an 1+inch air gap under the beef-up drywall. Is this a similar concept that we'd have with the spacing of the 2x4 double walls ??? [Mass, insulation, air gap, insulation, mass]. Except we'd have mass, gap, insulation, mass. I know I'm NOT asking this very clearly ... think I'm still buzzing from the silicon [ok, and the NEW brochure may be a factor :) anyway ... minutes away from the New Year. May it be wonderful. Sincerely ...... Thank-you

the insulation for sure wants to be in contact with the new isolation ceiling drywall to ensure it is damped. the challenge (in conjunction with blocking) is to ensure that the insulation is not compressed too much and avoid any possible coupling effect. so simply threading the insulation through the joists (new and old) will require a delicate touch and if you have to have an air gap, i'd leave that gap at the top near the existing (beefed up) floor. defer to your brothers' knowledge on safety and code to guide the bracing decision and when in doubt pick safety over convenience.

Progress update: Been taking care of a few odds & ends, along with much shopping for supplies and research. I've not found the exact type of insulation for the bins as yet. I'm thinking I may wait to install it until AFTER we get the wall construction up. It would be sonnically better if we had it in, but it might be tough building underneath :? Speaking of sound ... the added drywall has livened up the room a bit [as expected]. One thing I notice is the change in sound levels coming from above. It seems every few days the transfer lessens. I read that GreenGlue takes about 4 weeks curing time. Of course, the untreated side of the room is noticeably louder. Just an observation. OK ... I had the plumbers back in last night to take care of a few issues. I wasn't happy with the emergency pump install, so that was now fix. Also, I had a hot water heating pipe that I had them change ... but I screwed up. Now that I have the isolation drywall in, along with a clearer layout of the walls, the pipe would have needed to cut through the new construction. [me no like that] ... so, they moved it to the far back of the rafter, and insulated it. This should now be out of the way. And, of course, my electrician will be coming back to move a couple lines that just need to be moved ! Shoulda done it from the get go ... livin' and learnin' :roll: . Next ... the sump pump area just looked atrocious. I went in with a 'steamer' and cleaned that area where drain pipe had covered since day one. I then re-surfaced the floor area with new concrete. Figured I better do while I can still get to it. Same goes for the upcoming paint for the foundation walls. Just want to clean it up before it all gets hidden. I also went in and did some sealing around the foundation and the sill plate while I still could. The Brother had stopped in to inspect ... he's tough, but seemed impressed with the 'beef-up' and smiled when he saw full furring with caulk coverage in there. He, along with our structural engineer, still maintain that blocking between the joist will NOT be needed. So, the half dozen 2x4's I bought will have a different gig. HOWEVER ... I DO have about 15 8' 1x3's out in the garage that, currently, Robin Hood & his Band of Merry are divvying up for bows. :roll: If the lumber yard won't take em back, they can be used for fire wood. I know I still have several issue to resolve [things like HVAC, the Door, lighting, etc] but, I'm really wanting to get some lumber delivered so I can start laying out the floor plan to REALLY see what I have. Am I at that point yet ??? We got pics :)

cool all around. maybe some of the 1x3 can end up in various trimming bits where you need something to tack cloth onto etc...

Hi Glenn, Thanks :) I really need some advice regarding the integration of the new wall build within the existing structure. I'll get some diagrams together, but what I'm first looking at is the outer 2x4 walls of your design [front & side], and the best strategy to go. The side wall will be going perpendicular to the joist above, while the front wall runs parallel. Two choices [i suppose]. We can build with a top plate up to the bottom of the joist, OR we could run up and attach to the side of a joist. ???? My layman's' guess would be with 'double top plates' under the joist. [Which could also provide some additional support of the floor above. [of course, we're talking ONLY of the 2 outer walls]. Also ... I have a box of 'Hammer-Set' Heavy duty nail drive anchors 1/4" x 2" that I'm considering for locking the floor plate [treated 2x4] to the concrete floor, AND for connecting the 2 places that the 2x4 outer wall will connect to the concrete foundation. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this please !! Thanks :)

the double top plate works. the anchors should work on the outside wall. i'd opt for decoupled anchors on the inside walls.

gullfo wrote:

the double top plate works. the anchors should work on the outside wall. i'd opt for decoupled anchors on the inside walls.

Double top plate it is !! :) I'd like to draw up the possible idea for placement of the outer side wall that'll be where the 'main load bearing' beam is. I'll get that together. For the 'decoupled anchors', I'll search the forum again for specifics. I know that I read about techniques others have used. i.e.: rubber tubing sleeves inside the 2x4 drilled hole, and rubber washers. Not sure if the anchors I bought are acceptable. Basically, they look like 'expansion' nails. With a ~ 1" hole into the concrete floor & a 1/4" hole thru the 2x4, the 'nail' is pounded in, and the bottom of it flanges out [expands] to lock it in [thus called a 'Hammer Set']. I suppose I could use some rubber tubing, and add a rubber washer beneath the nails' built-in metal washer. Make sense ??? Or do you have a different way [better] ?? :) BTW ... meeting with my lumber guy tomorrow to check and order framing lumber :)

OK ... I've drawn out the idea for the 2x4 outer wall with drywall and have included the SketchUP file. The concept is: to connect to the bottom of the joist, FLUSH to the MLB beam for the outer side wall. The 5/8 drywall would butt up under the MLB beam. The front wall would connect the same way, but the drywall would cover the joist face. Both walls filled with faced, 3 1/2" insulation [fluffy toward the inner wall]. Is there a better way ??? Another question ... contractor wants to know if frame should be nailed or screwed ... ??? possibly a combination of nailing the frame together, but screwing it in to the joist ??? What should I do ?? Sorry for all the questions [still so much to learn/understand] and I'd very much want to avoid doing stupid :shock: :mrgreen: Once again, Glenn ... thank you so much for for guidance and wisdom ! Sincerely.

You could go the route of using the rubber tubes and rubber washers to create the decoupled anchors. On the walls, (I'm mobile at the moment) looks like your thinking of lining up the outer wall with the joist and toe-nailing (toe-screwing :twisted: ) the frame to the joist? Maybe just use metal straps for that instead? Then yes you could run the drywall all the way up.

Hi Glenn ! It should be clearer in the actual SU file, but yes, I'm considering the side wall flush up to that main load beam, and have the drywall come up to the bottom of that main beam. The front wall [running parallel ] with the joist, was thinking of running THAT too up to the bottom of the joist [for added floor support], but having the front surface lined up with the face of the joist. Then drywall could run nearly up to the floor plate above. OR the front wall could be flush to the 'inside' of the joist, then the drywall up to the joist bottom. Just trying to make sure that things like flanking, etc, are minimized along with with the best building concept. Thanks again for your insight [hmmm ... this 'toe-screwing' concept ... may require additional research :shot: :)

Premium grade lumber order went in today! Monday afternoon delivery :D

OK, I have an issue that I need to consult about. Glenn, I know you've been the main guru guiding me through this process, and I can't tell you how much this has been appreciated ! If anyone else might be reading this thread, and has an observation ... I would also welcome that perspective/insight. Here's the upcoming issue. The ceiling height of the new build is a significant limitation that I must deal with :? With that in mind, I've been trying to eek out every fraction of an inch of head room. For reference, I stand just over 6' tall [74"]. In the floorplan diagram I have marked with RED dots the measurement of concrete floor to the bottom of the joist above. We are in a basement, and there is the usual slope in the floor toward the sump pump area. My inclination is to build the inner walls at a height that would utilize every fraction of an inch of available height. To that cause, we would have to, basically, custom build each of the walls [upon which the new ceiling rafters would rest]. OK ... so maybe that will be more tedious and slow down the build. [Just to refresh ... new rafters will be interlaced 1/2" below the joist, and then 2 layers of 5/8" drywall ceiling.] The other problem may be for the drywallers. Their probably not gonna be smiling about this. However, I am prepared to compensate properly :mrgreen: So, the question is ... am I overlooking something important !!! Am I creating unnecessary hassles/issue over a 1 3/4" deferential ??? :shock: Please ... somebody straighten me out on this. What am I doing wrong or messing up ? Thanks again for your patient guidance and insight. Sincerely

I've been watching this thread closely because your basement looks just like mine. Your build looks great so far! I'm no studio building expert, but I've built a lot of stuff. No cement floor is perfectly level no matter how long they float it. This is what I'd do, but others may have different ideas. I'd get the sill and top plates in (with whatever decoupling you choose) and then size each stud to fit between. It takes longer, but I believe the results will be better than trying to frame it on the floor and stand it up. Make sure you use a good level. The drywallers won't care. They are used to buildings being out of square. They take measurements for each piece, although they usually get away with a bit of slop because they can cover gaps at the bottom of the walls with baseboard molding. You don't want that. Make sure they know that those joints have to be close enough to seal with your backer rod and caulk. I'll be keeping an eye on how your build progresses. Mike

i would build the walls to whatever your shortest height is, then build up under the lowest sections (rip down something to sit under the bottom plate). this way your walls are consistent and the floor differential is compensated by building up.

Progress report ... Hi Fallenmunk, [great sig name BTW] :) Hey, nice to know someone else is watching the craziness over here:) But I confess, I too have been following many of the threads on the board. Interesting to see the various ideas, problems, reworked designs. Plus to read & see what the GURU's present. This has been an interesting education for me. In particular, the thread from 'CRAMs basement jam room'. I saw many similar issues to my basement. Not only that, but his 'documentation' made me envious. When I read that he & his bros were jamming away without bothering anyone ... I was re-enthused, and even more particular in the workmanship. Of course, those guys look like they know their construction. Thanks again for following ... the REAL entertainment should be starting soon ! :shock: Well .... yesterday was a major delivery date. As the forklift came down the drive, I once again saw NOBODY but the driver ... who proceeded to drop the palette on the driveway, handed me a paper to sign, then bat-turned and flew down the driveway in a cloud of kicked up snow. I stood there staring at the load. Obviously ... no TIP for him :? With the 'Ssss.....LUMBER UN-Loading Party' brochure that I quickly iPhone'd out, that was also a miserable failure ... there was me ... stacking the piece in the garage. :cen: Pix has been provided. :| That is Idaho Premium in regular and pressure treated. All I can say is the aroma is marvelous 8) OK ... back to business. ... hmmm Glenn ... a little disappointed with the 'build to the lowest height' recommend :( ... no way to consider this as a 'slightly' SPLAYED ceiling :shot: Here's the thing ... as scary as this may sound, I may be doing this, ala, SOLO [and I don't mean the 'Man from U.N.C.L.E.' variety] :roll: It seems like all the construction crews suddenly have more work than they need. The situation could change, but I'm thinking I'd better be ready ... more tools have been purchase. With this in mind, the custom build [although slower], would not be a bother to me. The 2 outer [surround] walls will have to be tied into the joist above, so that will be a custom cut as I figure. I checked the 'LEVEL' going across the joist bottoms, and they indeed look to be quite level, which was my initial intent, to build parallel to the joist bottoms [rather than to the slope in the floor. It may only be an 1 3/4" difference, but that might look 'off' in the room. Not only that ... but every fraction of height gained would be appreciated ! Another concern would be cutting a wedge for under the bottom plate. I have no saw to do that type of rip ... I'd have to go with shims ... and raising that much would put the 2x4's out of plumb. [sorry ... kinda thinking/visualizing & typing at the same time]. I DON'T know, and I'm certainly no expert on building ... I certainly don't want to create a problem, or screw this up ... I'm just not sure I could do as good of job build-wise this way. The custom build, level [parallel] below the joist seems more do-able for me. Am I really missing something critical here ?!?!? I'll wait for replies before any further ramblings :? Sincerely

the build to the lowest height (assuming your joists across the ceiling are level? meaning the joists are not sloping your floor is sloping (or perhaps I interpreted it wrong...) then there is a point at which the floor and ceiling height is the lowest, yes? so make your stud frame to that height (or lower for the inner joists) - all studs the same etc. then build up under that as shown (using long self-tapping bolt anchors as the power shot anchors won't reach - all decoupling rules apply still). this way the top plate of your walls are at the desired height and you avoid trying to make a bunch of different length studs and toe nailing etc. you can simply build the wall flat and erect it into place... you could use blocks under each stud if that is simpler than ripping. i definitely am with you on preserving as much ceiling height...

Thanks for pointing me to the CRAM build. Good stuff there. Very similar to my space. The main drawback to framing it the way I've suggested is that you have to toenail everything. No problem if you have a framing nailer. Otherwise, it is easier to toe screw it together. Glenn's way is much easier. :) I noticed that the CRAM build used sill foam under the base plates. I was considering neoprene. I'll wait to see what you use. :) I'll use treated wood for the sills plates for sure. My project is months away, but thanks for the great documentation and ideas! Mike

Hi Fallenmunk, Yeah, When you mentioned our similar builds, I thought you may find Crams' thread of interest. In fact, any build could benefit just for the links he provided, and the advice he got. Glad you found something useful there ! I wish that my build was still several months away, but since I had to tear out my previous room, we have a case of serious Jones'n going on over here :shock: A few projects are waiting in the wings [which is a nice compliment], but they have release schedule ... so I'm trying my best to get things done ... but I'm not wanting to rush it with a sloppy job, or cut corners to hit a deadline. With ALL its' limitations, this new room is very important to me and my work ... and as crazy as it sounds .... my life. Tonite my brother called to tell me that his choice carpenter may be available in a few days. I have seen his work ... he is meticulous & precise ... and he ain't cheap :| I had spoken with him earlier in the design phase for the door construction. I'll be finding out if he'd be interested in the room build. In actuality .... the build is, really, quite straight forward. There are a couple 'tricky' areas ... mainly around the sump pump 'kick-in', as this is the only section built away from the center load beam. So a couple of the joist bins will need some 'internal' blocking to handle the drywall with proper sealing. Now that the lumber is here, I'll be leaving the virtual design, and going straight to reality! I've already cut and temporarily placed to 2 wall plates that the outer walls will connect to the foundation walls. The new saw [with the laser guide :D ] allowed me to snug these pieces in place. [HEY ... I had it do something down here that looks like I've actually done something here !!!] :roll: Anyway ... the floor plates are single-piece-length/ section. The 14 footers are very straight and true looking. Currently they are in the garage doing a slow warm to ambient temperature before the move into the basement. I'm familiar with both build techniques for the walls ... each have merit & trade-offs. I [stubbornly] am still considering a 'hybrid' approach. My description should NOT be mis- interpreted as 'this is the BEST way', but rather, how to handle the design objective. First ... I'm looking at the outer walls, and the 'room within a room' walls as 2 different concepts and implementation. The outer walls [much like the 2 foundation walls] will more or less be tied into the structure. In that I mean the top plates will connect to the joist above, while snugging up to the main LB beam. They will also connect to the side foundation walls. I will anchor the bottom plates to the concrete floor. With rubber tubing and neoprene washers for the anchors [which MAY well be a mute point, or maybe a waste of effort, but if this is what is called for ... then that is what I do] :) Under the plates I was planning on the '3 bead' caulk. Some use the sill foam, others caulk, while still others say its not needed. Seeing how lumber and concrete are not mirror smooth, the caulking makes sense to me. I'll then follow up will 2 more beads on each plate side. My issue with shimming is getting an air tight sealing of floor to plate. I prefer the plate in full contact with the floor, allowing the 5 beads of caulking to fill a much tighter tolerance. I'm also not a fan of toe-nailing, so the plan was this: With 3 piece of 2x4 blocks stacked up, place a stud on top of that, and mark off the desired length. Do this on BOTH ends. Now, pre-build the wall on the floor [even using temporary finishing nails] to test the fit/ level, what have you. IF, and this is key, all is good ... then back on the floor, insert remaining studs custom cut. Anyway ... this was the cerebral plan :) This will take more work, for sure ... but for the small build this is, it's negligible. I think either way, the drywall guy will face the same issue and tolerance. Apologies for this [another] long winded posting ... if I am totally missing an important point, please accept my ignorance, and tell me. I don't want to give out even a hint of dis-respect, especially to Glenn !!! Now watch ... I'll end up getting a lead framer that has HIS way to do things :roll: Oh well ... been a very long, emotionally draining day [not related to this]. Prays and tears have gone out ... Thank-you.

Your hybrid approach is sensible. Your framer will probably have some other ideas for you too. I have the same issue with a LB beam on one of my walls. I was concerned to snug it up against the beam due to possible flanking. Maybe that's not a problem, but I'm planning on spacing my wall away from the beam just to be sure. :? Glenn helped me out with a great design. I'm glad he is here and that Mr. Sayers has provided us with a great forum to advance the home studio to a new art. By the time I'm ready to build I'll be prepared. Rod's book has been a great help too. I'll go back to lurking mode now. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Mike

I TOTALLY concur !! :) This site and the people that share their experience/insight is absolutely wonderful. Glenn has been so active here, and I'm constantly amazed at what he suggests from the incredibly wide variety of builds going on. The design he did for me, along with the technical guidance is invaluable to me. I am trying to learn everything I can. Again, I hope my previous posts ain't mis-interpreted. Once the pieces of lumber start to be layout, we'll know what build strategy will or won't work. The key is listening to the experts here, and don't cut corners or settle for '1/2 *ss'. Sincerely.

no problems here. if you can go with the full plate it will be better for sealing and hopefully that expensive carpenter has the tools to do it... :mrgreen: