UAN - new Control Room build

I think the sway braces are going to cost more than 8+/- pieces of OSB, and no shipping :)

guessing about 12 sheets @ $8 or 6 clips @ $20 - $96 vs $120 -- fair enough edit: but then you have to factor in the additional screws, caulking, labor, etc... so per TomVan's note, the pizza and beer could cover the labor bits... :wink:

gullfo wrote:

guessing about 12 sheets @ $8 or 6 clips @ $20 - $96 vs $120 -- fair enough

$24 ...Just enough for Beer and pizza to keep the natives happy :yahoo: Peace Tom

True, but what if no one has a hammer drill...there is another rental cost. Then you have red heads...mine was just another option, I'll go back to sleep now ;)

i'd suggest letting the local contractor sort out which bracing option is cost effective and feasible for your job. the key is to keep the inner walls decoupled from the outer walls and safely supporting the new ceiling.

Ditto!

gullfo wrote:

i'd suggest letting the local contractor sort out which bracing option is cost effective and feasible for your job. the key is to keep the inner walls decoupled from the outer walls and safely supporting the new ceiling.

Thank-you Gentlemen :) Especially having 2 effective choices. I googled the 'OSB' term and found out what that is ... I shoulda known :wink: If we do go the OSB route, should I assume that its' installation would be treated the same as the drywall install. Basically, 1/4" separation from floor, ceiling, & adjacent wall [corners]. Stuff 'those' areas with Backer Rod, and then acoustic caulk ? :?:

You do want to keep it off the floor a bit but you want to basically use this in the same fashion as you would if it were exterior sheathing to inhibit racking of the framing. Your framing guys should be familiar with that process, same thing only it is on the interior side. So no backer rod keep all the sheet edges jambed together tight. Nailing pattern is often painted on the OSB but if not, use the method recommended in your area, possibly 6 inches on the edges and 12 inches in the "field" of he panel. You do want to caulk the joints, air tight is what you are attempting so everything matters.

xSpace wrote:

You do want to keep it off the floor a bit but you want to basically use this in the same fashion as you would if it were exterior sheathing to inhibit racking of the framing. Your framing guys should be familiar with that process, same thing only it is on the interior side. So no backer rod keep all the sheet edges jambed together tight. Nailing pattern is often painted on the OSB but if not, use the method recommended in your area, possibly 6 inches on the edges and 12 inches in the "field" of he panel. You do want to caulk the joints, air tight is what you are attempting so everything matters.

aaaagggg .... Brien, forgive me, but I must be Tull's poster child for 'Thick As A Brick', cause I'm not understanding this concept. My framing guys probably do understand this ... but honestly, when it comes to building things like studios ... I've learned not to rely on their judgment only .... [as I'm sure you know what I'm saying]. :shock: Please, any diagram or link to info that would help me both visualize and add to my SketchUP layout would be so helpful. The SketchUP drawing is the only 'blueprint' that I'll have for the builders to reference from. Of course, it's very possible that I'm over thinking this :roll: All my framed walls will be 2x4 - 24"oc. I think what's throwing me is what you are calling 'interior side'. :?: This OSB ... is it to be the 1st layer where my drywall will be going ? On the 'inner' walls, ok, that would be the interior. But I also have 2 runs of outer wall. The OSB would be the 1st layer on the exterior of the outer walls. Now if I haven't botched this concept yet ... then, you say:

So no backer rod keep all the sheet edges jambed together tight.

We're talking OSB being edge tight ... but doesn't this conflict with the concept of 'gapping' the perimeters for the drywall ??? [which I thought was to keep the wall flanking issue minimized]. I sorry that I'm not understanding this the right way ... :? :oops: I need to see a pic of this. Thanks

"My framing guys probably do understand this " It is common the Nation over to use this method to sheath exterior walls, the only difference is that you are doing it to an interior wall, but it is for the same reason, they can get it:) If you want to have the edges of the panels where they intersect in corners not touch, that is fine, use backer rod and caulk as usual. But the nailing pattern is still important. In Max's build thread (designed by Rod) you can see that Rod had him install the OSB with backer rod between every joint on his tracking room ceiling...every joint, vertical/horizontal, corners, you name it. The walls do not look to be like this and I suspect this is to maintain the ability of the panels to stay rigid. But the corners are backer-rod/caulked. http://recording.org/studio-constructio ... ns-56.html So you can go as easy or as insane as you want :) In a small place like yours I don't know how much difference it will make but I do understand in part what they are trying to achieve with the decoupled/broken barriers in Max/s place, which will be a open to the public business.

OK ... went reading through Max's build ... Let me post a pic & SU [v-7] file to see if I have this correct. The pic & SU are just for illustrative purposes ! Once I understand, then I can get material count & cost together. Thanks !

Looks good to me.

xSpace wrote:

Looks good to me.

I've had good teachers ! :D OK ... now that I understand better the use of OSB sheathing in this manner, let me ask about of few details. With 1/2" OSB as the 1st layer: 1. Is this nailed or screwed on? 2. Perimeter spacing [gaps]. The only reason I asked about this was from what I understood with the drywall mounting. Leaving a 1/4" gap between the corners, and where floor & ceiling would meet the wall. Load 'gap' with backer rod & then caulk. This same process would be repeated for each successive layer. Your first mention of OSB mounting was to go tight, but then saying the I could optionally gap like the drywall. I'm NOT questioning your knowledge or experience ... I just want to implement the design the best way with respect to the guidance you guys have shared. I also want to have full confidence in directing whomever will be doing the construction. I KNOW that I will have good people building on this end ... but like I eluded too ... the requirements of a Control Room build is NOT their everyday experience, and they'll fall back on what they would normally do ... which might be fine in some aspects, but I want to be certain when normal ain't what we need. 2. 'The Case of the Green Glue' ... this may or not be obvious [but I gotta ask anyway]. Should I then be using the GG on the 1st layer of OSB to 5/8" drywall, and then a second spread on the 2nd drywall layer [as to the original plan] ? I've never encounter GG in any of the builds I've been involved or observed ... and no idea as to how OSB and drywall react with it. This would definitely raise the cost factor, but if we gain a new level of isolation that is worth the raw cost and labor, then what can I say. I don't want to throw money away, but I don't want to skimp on something that gets 1 time to do it right ! --- OK ... don't want to ramble more than I have :shock: Tomorrow afternoon the fine carpenter called to come out. Primarily looking at the critical door to be built. I have a 1st draft SketchUP file I'd like to post for critique. It is model from Rods' SUPERDOOR design. I've tried to interpret his drawing into a 3d SU. Let me get this together and post back :) Sincere THANK-YOU

"1. Is this nailed or screwed on?" Screws are what I use on any panels I have installed to framing simply because they are going to hold better with very little chance of backing out. The space at wall panel intersections is to attempt to keep wall to wall coupling down. We know that materials move and squeak expand and contract so having a non touching joint at corners allows for this natural movement without adding any unwanted pressure at where ever the joint is placed when this natural phenomenon happens. This is not theory but is pretty well known way outside of the acoustics arena, a car engine filled of water and allowed to freeze will bear this out. But I haven't the first bit of data that can tell one way or the other if it does or does not change the room in any audible way that the human ear can hear. Then I have to think about the framing that is all connected, we add wood panels with a space, but the framing is all connected, so what difference does it make? I don't know. It does produce a wall with higher shear resistance (if butted together) so that is welcome, but in a room of your size, the difference may well be negligible if not butted tight. I said all of that to say all of this. Because of the contraction and expansion, I would have the gap at the OSB panel ends, fill with backer rod and caulk. The end :)

Brien ... you are wonderful ! Thanks for sharing your 'thinking' on this ! Not only to the specifics we talked on, but also to the larger picture. This has help my understanding in a very meaningful way. :D Just had a meeting with my 'specialist' carpenter. He was fascinated with the entire design of this control room, and in particular, the 'Super Door' construction. I'm still working out the SU particulars, and hope to post here for critique :) Thank-you Guys for being here and helping so much !! Sincerely.

Getting the 'Super Door' laid out in SU. Here's an early peek :) edit: OK .. I've added a V7 SU file. Now I'm still working through the details on this door. At first I had the door positioned on the outer wall, but I had to rethink that due to the restricted headroom that would result from having 3 'stops' in the door frame. I've now moved the door to the inner wall [so to speak], and would then make it a 'push-in' to go into the CR. SketchUP is really nice to plan things out ... just need to get better using it. I still need to adjust the dimensions of the door & frame for my particulars. But I want to be sure I'm going at this right BEFORE I try integrating into the main layout. One particular I couldn't get from Rods' diagram is whether the top section of the door jamb was also to be treated with rockwool and backer rod [like the sides] ??

the top would be treated the same as the walls in terms of sealing it. on the back to back door, you could still fit one if the trim sections holding the seals where sized and you consider either door opening opposite ways or adjusting the handle heights. another option is cam hinges for lifting the door slightly and/or having an adjustable base seal inside the door.

gullfo wrote:

the top would be treated the same as the walls in terms of sealing it. on the back to back door, you could still fit one if the trim sections holding the seals where sized and you consider either door opening opposite ways or adjusting the handle heights. another option is cam hinges for lifting the door slightly and/or having an adjustable base seal inside the door.

Hi Glenn, You know I always look forward to your posting of insights ! :D In regard to the 'Super Door' design, I'll keep the rockwool & backer rod in the top section [like the side treatment]. I see what you're saying about the 'back to back' door ... I have gone back to the SU file needing to adjust the lumber sizes to the real world dimension. I found a nice [free] SU plugin called 'Engineering Toolbox' that has dimension lumber sizes in actual measurements. This is very useful to me. At least I can design this to the available materials. Although its' a scary thought to consider a 2 door system ... gawd ... I really hope 'SUPER' also applies to its isolation character. :shock: I was anticipating that the various door 'stops' were going to be 'glued & screwed' into the jamb. It would then seem that should a 2nd door have to happen, the entire frame would have to be replaced. :roll: I'm doing searches for the 'cam hinges'. The company that makes the door threshold that I modeled after has hinges for stage doors & such ... I don't know of local suppliers that might have exactly what the weight of this door will require. On previous things ... the OSB vs WIC debate is still going on in the brain. It has been intensified when I think of this door being opened and closed. To be honest ... I'm thinking of using BOTH ideas, but maybe using 2 clips per wall [8 in total] that would firm the inner wall against the 2 concrete walls, and give a cushion support to the 2 exterior framed walls for when this door closes. You know ... I've never seen one of these clips in person, so I don't really know what I'm talking about :oops:

Hello Gentlemen, Still working the details on the door ... and I see a 'leak' problem at the bottom where the door meets with the threshold. It's not really clear in Rod's book [or I'm overlooking something] how the 'threshold' is supposed to fit under the door. Specifically ... right now I have the threshold sized to fit inside all the stops in the door frame. With SU, looking at the bottom of the door area, my current design is showing a weak spot in sealing. So I figure I'm doing this wrong. So ... should the threshold 'stretch' from the main 5/4" jamb itself, and then the 3 'stops' set on top of the threshold ?? In other words, with a 36" door, should the threshold ALSO be 36" ? Geesh ... just writing this question it seems more obvious :? EXCEPT when I look at the side view with X-Ray setting. Then those stops would be very tough to shape to the threshold. I don't know ... hope someone can share a better way to do this. Ya think I never designed a door before ? Heh wait ... I haven't ... not a Super one at least :|

yeah, if you're building a super door, just one should suffice. for the threshold seal - it will need to span the entire distance of the opening in order to seal. in Rod's book on pg 109 he shows a threshold diagram but the one on the zero international site is more detailed and should answer the question on drop seals. http://www.zerointernational.com/catalo ... px?page=57 and cam hinges on http://www.zerointernational.com/catalo ... px?page=39 while more work/parts to assemble, i prefer 2 back to back solid core doors because most home owners find it easier since it's more similar to normal door construction. here's a good view of the bottom seal spanning the door. http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/doors ... rseals.htm

Thank-you very much for the links above Glenn !! I tracked down a price tag on those cam hinges ... :shock: 'They' weren't kidding when they said $uper Door! Looks to be about $130/ hinge. The magnetic sealer tracks are $20/ft. I'll need about 17 ft for 2 side runs & the top. With the door being about 6' 8" x 36" x 1 3/4" solid oak [as the base], I was wondering if 3 hinges would be correct :?: ---- As for the progress side ... well, I guess slowly is better than nothing. I keep thinking about Andres' sig regarding designing/build ratio. It's tough when people are calling on projects and I have to say 'no can do for now'. :| And really, before I would be comfortable, I'd want to 'shoot out' the room, run listening test, etc. before opening. And yet, I still have a couple of to yet resolve ... and they are kinda important. Heating/AC & fresh air. and the other thing ... getting electricity into this room. I've been going though the book and forum trying to gather ideas & solutions from other projects. One thing I haven't been able to figure is HOW to get the actual wires into this CR room :oops: Maybe there is a page in Rod's book that I overlooked ... but what I think I need would be 2 separate feeds. One for audio, the other for lighting/AC/heat/etc. To be clear ... my room will be computer based [DAW]. There is no recording to do, so hardware would be minimal. There WILL be, however, the need for several servers. My thought was to get them 'outside' the CR, and run data lines into the CR [CAT]. I'm trying to have everything laid out in SketchUP, but I not really sure how to best get the physical wire in/out of the room. Questions like:. 1. do I penetrate BOTH walls straight in, or maybe through PVC tubing or something ? Once the wire is inside, the 'plan' was to use the type of 'exterior' runs like you'd see in a temp office. [maybe called channel strips]. Similar idea for the lighting. Having CAT data lines [I'd like keep all the computer fans/heat/noise out of the room [if possible], and yet have the ability to add additional lines later, as needed. Oh ... have a structure question too ... Glenn, in the back of the room you designed in symmetrical 'kick-ins' on the back wall. Do I need to do anything on the side opposite the sump pump? Treatment ??? Can it be used for anything ... or is it just 'wasted'. thanks for all the help !!!!

check the rating on the hinges but i think you only need 2 assuming they're rated 300lb or more each. you can run conduit between the rooms - use a rubber coupler to decouple them (oxymoron?) and seal the ends with putty pads. check building code to determine PVC versus metal. the kick-ins are isolation walls... on the far side of the sump you'll want to have the other isolation wall with an access door. while this is not the perfect isolation solution you have to have access to the sump and presumably allow water to flow to it... but it will be better than having it fully open.

gullfo wrote:

check the rating on the hinges but i think you only need 2 assuming they're rated 300lb or more each. you can run conduit between the rooms - use a rubber coupler to decouple them (oxymoron?) and seal the ends with putty pads. check building code to determine PVC versus metal. the kick-ins are isolation walls... on the far side of the sump you'll want to have the other isolation wall with an access door. while this is not the perfect isolation solution you have to have access to the sump and presumably allow water to flow to it... but it will be better than having it fully open.

Reading the specs from ZERO, the Z950 is rated up to 500 lbs. The Z955 is up to 300 lbs. Both specs use a 'Door Rating = 1 1/2 pairs. I know it would be very helpful if I knew the weight of the door at this point :roll: but I ain't gots that info yet :| Getting electrical wires in, and 'data' lines/etc out of the CR through PVC is OK with code here. As you've pointed out in other threads, sealing up any hole in the room is critical. Maybe this is a 'dumb' question, but I'd rather look it than do it :wink: Given that I'd have ONLY the choice of new walls or the ceiling to do the 'wiring' ... is there a 'best' of a bad situation. For instance, it would be very convenient to bring electrical lines into the front left corner of the CR. [possibly behind the corner chunky trap] since most of the power needs will plug in at the front of the room. For lighting, since a switch is planned near the CR door, a line would enter from that area to the switch[s] which would then run around the ceiling perimeter for side track lighting. The 'technical' questions is '... with the build-up of sound pressure in the corners of the room [thus the strategic placement of the chunky corner traps], it would seem that a hole in the corner would be the worst place to do this ?? Since I'd need to pierce the outer wall ... and for this, to enter through the top front left corner [PVC], THEN run a tube down and over to the middle floor of the front INNER wall, and enter the room there ??? Can anyone follow what I just wrote :roll: Let me stop on that issue until someone straightens me out! ---------------------------------------- Glenn ... my question on the back corner was either not clear [most likely], or I did not understand your response, so I've enclosed an overhead view, circling the area in question. Since the sump pump area will ONLY be accessible from outside the CR, I was wondering if I should do anything more in the circled area [especially BEFORE the inner wall closes it up]. I mean should I maybe hang some bats in that corner, or stack a few rolls of fiberglass there, or just leave it be :?: [maybe a smaller reverb chamber :shot: OK ... and just for grins, a glimpse of the front [1st draft]. ------------ EDIT ------ wow ... I found an Excel file called 'Room Mode Calculator SAE', and entered in the base dimensions of my room [from drywall to drywall] . Now I'm really concerned :shock: :( Not sure I'm doing it right. I used the following: H= 80.75", W= 143.5", L= 183.25". I know I don't fully understand everything that the spreadsheet calculated [I'm trying to learn], but from the novice perspective ... is this room going to be a disastor :?: :oops: Granted, with the limit ceiling height ... how concerned should I be ?!? I'll post the Excel file here for review ... please, if this is bad, I need help to get it right. THANKS!!!!

conceptually you could make that a closet...

gullfo wrote:

conceptually you could make that a closet...

Measurements show an 11" opening, so I couldn't even utilize it as a server rack ... oh well. Just wanted to be sure to leave as is. Today I was out at the Lumber supplier. They have the ' 1 inch FORMULAR 150 Extruded Polystyrene' insulation boards, the 5/8" drywall, 1x3 furring, and caulk for the initial between the joist treatment. So I put that order in. Green Glue is on the way. Due to the limited storage area here, I have to bring materials in phases. Still 2 phone lines to re-route. All the joist bins have been silicon caulked. Whether that made a diff or not, it won't hurt. While out shopping, I checked out some HVAC options, and also a Lighting store. That's all the news thats fit to print :mrgreen: Continued THANKS for the expert guidance!