UAN - new Control Room build

you could enclose the support poles in the interior wall, the single wall i show is your main encasement for the room with the existing basement walls forming 2 of the outer walls, and you can add the other 2 walls per Stuart's design. you could frame out the window space but cover it and use a TV. then if you decide later that the window would be better, you have the framing ready to go and not have to tear out too much wall.

Like said, if you do the clips and track, then blocks are easiest. But if you do a framed type ceiling that will mate to the framed walls, blocking will not work without significant reduction of head room. You would have to go back to the diagonal bracing in order to allow the joist to project to the highest possible placement in the overhead cavity. There is a picture and possibly some explanation in Rod's book per diagonal bracing and joists.

a little update & reply ... We had a busy week here, none the lest having Ma now over in special therapy after dbl knee replace surgery. Talk about nerve racking :shock: I can begin to shift focus back to control room. Some progress is underway ... A few days back I had a visit from my structural engineer. He looked over the entire build area, asking very pertinent questions, and studied the design plan. He wasn't aware of SketchUP, but will check it out. I emailed him copies of the SU files that we have. A 'good' thing happened while he was here! We had visit from the grandchildren. They are VERY active kids, running around upstairs, having fun. But what the engineer pointed out was the flex in the floor. Nothing too crazy [except when they must have been tackling each other ... they are all very athletic]. He raised the same concern I had regarding ISO clipping the new ceiling to the exiting joist. His thinking is to pursue the independent design, whereby the new ceiling would be supported on the interior wall, with rafters inter-spaced between the existing joist, hanging ~1/2" below. I've not yet heard back, so this was just one option mentioned. When I do, I would certainly like to present that info here to be certain. Glenn ... I've made some mods to your initial layout to show the 2 double walls added. The SE suggested keeping the construction inside the main load bearing beam ... whereby the 2 metal support post wouldn't be enclosed. :| I think his feeling where more to do with cost, and EASE of the build. As soon as I can get the SU file down to the 'limit', I would like to post that to be sure I've not done something stupid ... AND ... that the 'room ratio' are to requirements. If everything is good, I can then put a material list together so I can get the stuff shipped in :) As far as I understand, we are OK to go with the beefing up between the joist. Going from your initial drawing, Glenn, we'll do the 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, with the 'backer rod' at the edges. Does it matter if the backer rod is 'open' or 'closed' cell ??? I think I've only seen 'closed' cell ?!? I'm still trying to identify exactly what spec of rigid fiber board that needs to go up first [with all the nails hanging through]. I can bend them down, if needed ... but thinking the rigid board would be helpful to get a better fit up there. I DON'T want to use anything that would amplify the noise !!!! Using 1x2 ledger to hold it all up ... and then caulk all the seams. Do I use just regular 'Painters Acrylic Latex' caulk ... something else ??? No mention in Rods' book on specifics. OR .. should I really be using the Green Glue companies sealant ? You mentioned using the Green Glue between those 5/8ths up in the joist ... so an order has got to go in. My apologies if I'm being to 'anal' about all this ... but I only have one shot to be right at this part, cause 'shoulda/ coulda' would be bad. :roll: Well ... just a small update to let you know I haven't fallen off the globe ... now to see if I can get that file size down. Hey ... is everyone on SU version 8 now ?!?!? Big thanks guys!! :)

the backer rod and caulk... lots of caulk... caulk is your friend... :lol: dunno if its open or closed cell, i'm guessing closed... should not matter in this regards, it's designed to close gaps and reduce the quantity of caulk (your friend) needed. if we're moving any walls we'll have to re-calc the room ratios. on the ceiling - you could sister up the floor joists to make it rigid and then use the isolator clips. that would have the effect of reducing the flex and increasing the load bearing strength. and since you're taking out the blocking to put in the mass above, you could put in a second set of joists and do the block bracing instead of the cross bracing.

Hi Glenn, I don't know what kind of walls you use to make SU designs, but I'm struggling to do just the most basic layout, and keep under the 500k limit. :| I purged most everything ... and ended up redrawing the outer wall as a box by retracing over the wall/stud component :( The changes made were mainly to the back & side wall [by the sump]. I tried to match the 'kick-ins' of the back wall to maintain symmetry. If it turns out that the 'inner walls' become the support for the ceiling rafters, I lowered the inner walls about 1/2" to clear the structure joist above. Let me get this SU file uploaded before anything more. Thank-you! :)

it seems to be ok compared to the previous model.

Thanks Glenn for looking over the room size. I really did not want to mess with your design, but the isolation figures of the dual wall was something I wanted to have with this. If you see a better way, I'd appreciate it ! :) Had the plumbers back today to hook up a utility tub ... having to shift things around this area just to get at things. Today I received an email from my structural engineer, Andy. I had sent him a variety of drawings that I compiled, along with Glenn's room design. While he was here, he went through the place, taking notes and a few photos. Tonite he sent me a PDF [which I've attached] with his handwritten recommendations. It's not the easiest to read, but I'm able to decipher it :| He told me I'm good to go on the planned 'between the joist' treatment, so that is a good thing. The CR ceiling is coming in pretty much as he indicated while he was here. He calls for 2x8", #2 or better, 16"oc set in between the joist above, resting on dbl top plate of the interior wall. From the looks of it, the ceiling height would be 6'-9 1/2". This is slightly better than what I originally had down here, and probably the most to expect. oh well ... might serve as additional incentive to build a ground up room down the road. :) So with this, I'll need to get the electricians in and just re-route/clear the wiring in this area and be done with that. It'll make it easier to get that treatment up there too. I figured as much anyway. Getting my 1st order put together. Figure to start with several cases of Green Glue, and at least 1 case of sealant. Some 1x2's, a dozen sheets of 5/8" drywall, backer rod, and a mess of caulk. I guess latex ??? or would it be better to go silicon based? The rigid foam ... is the 'R-4 Foamular 250 - 3/4" ' the right stuff to lay up there first ??? Or if I bend all those nails poking through, should I go 1/2" rigid? Thanks again for all you help and guidance :)

you don't need the backer rod in the mass your adding to the upper floor. just caulk it all once you have the ledger boards in place. caulk can be "acoustic" or "silicone", non-hardening caulk. you'll also want to consider the fire stops need a fire caulk. Rod's book has the details on how this is assembled. you will need backer rod for the ceiling/wall, wall/floor gaps in the drywall.

...and do not bend the nails over that have been driven through the overhead plywood. They exist in this manner for a reason and banging or bending them will reduce the ability to hold whatever they are holding above, that is why we keep saying use 3/4 inch thermal sheathing, extruded polystyrene, polyisocyanurate, whichever is cheapest. And do not cut the nails either for all the same reasons given above :)

Thanks Glenn & Brien, You saved me both time/effort & money! :) That backer rod would add up fast. Not bending nails ... I'll get the 3/4" rigid. 8) Tonite I'm drumming with a jazz group ... when I get back, my shopping list gets ready to be called in. More reading of Rod's book too! Thanks. :)

"Glenn" ... basically l left about 2 inches around the new isolation walls which gives you about 6.5" of air gap on the outer walls and 9" between the interior walls. the isolation walls are supported by isolation mounts (like Mason Industry WIC or RISC mounts) to keep them stable and decoupled.

OK ... I've been having some work done 'outside' of the CR area [trying to get this basement fixed up]. Been a delay getting my electrician down here. He's just getting back to work after an injury and is starting to get caught up. We're looking at Wed or Thur to get together and decide what overhead wires [inside the floor joist] need to be re-routed. Since it looks like we are going with the new rafters between the existing joist, the few phone & electrical lines are in the way. It will also make the 'Ceiling Beef-up' procedure easier to get at. I'm assembling my shopping list spreadsheet as I add more details to the SU file ... its' alot easier to count up the drywall, lumber counts this way :) Been scanning the web to locate specific materials and suppliers. In the quote above, I've been trying to identify & locate the 'isolation mounts' that Glenn mentioned. If I understand correctly, we'll need some type of standoff isolation mount between the 2 concrete walls and the new inner wall, and a iso bracket between the 2 new outer framed walls and the inner walls. What I've found is the 'RSIC-CWB' between the inner/outer frame walls http://www.professionalacousticsco.com/rsic-cwbxx.html and 'RSIC-DC04' between the inner/concrete walls. http://www.professionalacousticsco.com/rsic-dc04.html Is this what I should be using ? and if so ... got a supplier you'd recommend ? :) Thanks again ... pics are comin'. :)

looks like the right brackets. you could shop around the internet for pricing.

gullfo wrote:

looks like the right brackets. you could shop around the internet for pricing.

Hi Glenn, Yeah ... I was trying to locate another bracket I saw [somewhere] ... it looked like an angle bracket that had iso-mount between the 'fingers'. It seems it was used to connect the 2 standing frame walls together, while maintaining a 'locked' distance. Now I can't seem to find the link to them. But the BIG question, if ya don't mind me asking :) .... Should I use them ?? What I mean is this ... was over at Rods' forum and found a thread that kinda talked about this area. It was an 'older' thread, and it seemed there was concern as to effectiveness or need. Rod wanted to see data sheets. Again, this was an old thread ... My contractor also raised the question too ... with the ceiling rafters and drywall tying the inside walls together ... he was just wondering. Of course, we are deferring to your perspective/judgement on this !!!!!! Those 'other clips' looked a little like this. ----||____, with a type of iso between the 2 overlapping vertical fingers. [any idea ??] if so, what's the right way? see page: 79 in The Hymnal/Bible. Going thru Rods' book, I didn't find anything more specific in the section on walls. :| Again ... just trying to understand the best way to do this, and very much appreciate your guidance! :) Sincerely.

it's really a matter of stability. the inner walls supporting a massive ceiling without anything other than a corner join and the weight of the ceiling. if your builder let in some diagonal bracing on the outside of each wall frame before erecting it, that might be good. otherwise imho it couldn't hurt to have stabilizing isolation mounts every 6-8 feet. Mason Industries has the WIC (Wall Isolation Clip) which may be the other type of brace you were thinking of. In Rod's book, in the Pulling It all Together section you'll see extensive use of the isolation braces both the WIC and the RISC.

Hi Glenn, Regarding the 'stability' WIC clips ... we are going with you on this ! of course .... This meant having to, once again, make some modifications to the room layout and dimensions :? :oops: [another 'donation' and penance in the offering] :wink: I sincerely hope that I have this correct ... especially in the 'Room Mode' perspective. My SketchUP chops leave alot to be desired, but I have included in the RAR'd version 8 SU file a placement of the WIC clips as I thought they might be. [need I remind everyone ... I am NOT an architect nor a carpenter] :shock: From reading threads, the suggestion of mounting the WIC's approx 1ft down from the top plate is what I tried to follow. There are places where this doesn't seem possible. The other BIG factor is that I don't have a clear depiction of how the actually framing beams will be located. [??? question: since we're doing double walls [separated] is there a need to stagger the wall frame beams ???]. Anyway ... I'd very much like to get this file posted and have the expert correct my mistakes. The time is coming to place material order ... but I want to be sure that the plan is the best it can be. Thank-you [once again] for your patients, kindness, and your knowledge that you have shown to me and my Control Room build. Sincerely, RHollins

Well, trying to make some progress here .... After 3 days, no electrician. :roll: So, found out one of my past clients is one. He's was very interested, and even expressed many of the 'concerns' that go into building studio rooms. He's coming over Mon afternoon :) Tomorrow [i hope] one of the better finishing carpenters is supposed to come over. I want him to look over the plans ... in particular, things like the door construction.

Amongst other things, got a meeting in today with my contractor to review the design and layout, and to clarify the ordering of materials. These guys deal with the bigger lumber companies, which have a larger selection of dimensional lumber sizes. The prices are a little better ... plus ... why waste. A few observation and questions came up along the way ... 1. I don't know if it really matters, but he'd like to use treated lumber for the bottom plates of the 2x4 walls that sit on the concrete. 2. He also asked if we are putting anything under these bottom plates, like foam or rubber, or just 'plain' to the floor . And do we want to 'Liquid Nail' to the concrete floor ? 3. He asked whether the drywall should be 'mold resistant', or regular? 4. He understands that the 'inner' 2x4 wall is an entity unto itself [other than the WIC clips], but was wondering about the 2 outer walls? Specifically ... should they be solidly attached to the existing structure? By that, I mean, do we attach the top sill plates to the floor joist above ? What about near the 'main load bearing beam' in the center? AND ... the 2 points where the outer wall goes to the concrete walls ... can we nail or Liquid Nail an anchor 2x4 to the concrete wall??? If so ... any special treatment to do ??? I've been trying to read as many of the pertinent threads both here and on Rods' forum, as well as readings from 'The Bible' :) , and although I've been trying to learn as we go, I have also gotten confused along the way :shock: A side note ... been over to the Green Glue guys ... looks like I start with 5 cases of GG, and 2 cases of Acoustic Sealant. Owww ... been working off of the 'Super Door' design from Rod ... and my brother mentions that he has a 1 3/4", 36" solid oak door, that has never been touched [no window, nor knob hole .... clean] in storage. Said it must weight 300 lbs. If its as described, I told him consider it sold !! :yahoo: I'd like to post a SU file for critique :) Still workin' on it ... The new electrician is supposed to come over in the afternoon ... he says he has another recording project for me ... I told him I need a room to do my work. If we can help each other ... that would be nice. :mrgreen: Well, that's the latest k-news here. All shared insights on above questions is sincerely appreciated ... THANK-YOU!! [know any good HVAC guys in my area ...... :| still another part to work out ... please help me :shot: :D

you could use the treated wood for the bottom plate. i'd recommend putting the walls on sorbothane or neoprene to decouple from the floor and/or overhead joists if you're planning to attach them. no liquid nails anywhere please. use washer and rubber to decouple the floor anchors. the outer walls should be decoupled via WIC and/or RISC clips so there is no solid attachment anywhere. study Rod's fire stops carefully as they are critical for safety.

"4. He understands that the 'inner' 2x4 wall is an entity unto itself [other than the WIC clips], but was wondering about the 2 outer walls? Specifically ... should they be solidly attached to the existing structure? By that, I mean, do we attach the top sill plates to the floor joist above ? What about near the 'main load bearing beam' in the center? AND ... the 2 points where the outer wall goes to the concrete walls ... can we nail or Liquid Nail an anchor 2x4 to the concrete wall??" You should really post some type of floor layout...all those clips and walls and what-ever...it just reads like a bunch of things that may be in conflict, but that is why we love pix :)

1. I don't know if it really matters, but he'd like to use treated lumber for the bottom plates of the 2x4 walls that sit on the concrete.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

2. He also asked if we are putting anything under these bottom plates, like foam or rubber, or just 'plain' to the floor . And do we want to 'Liquid Nail' to the concrete floor ?

Yup. You will be sealing all of that with caulk. The "overkill" method (and thus highly recommended here...) is to run three beads of caulk under the bottom plate: one down the center and one close to each edge. Then another bead under the edge of each layer of drywall. Another option if your floor is very uneven, is to use some type of rubber to give you the seal. As for how to attach the framing to the floor, that depends on code: Where I live (Chile, land of earthquakes) the framing has to be bolted to the floor: we don't want walls bouncing around on the floor... :)

3. He asked whether the drywall should be 'mold resistant', or regular?

Probably not a bad idea to have it mold resistant, if that is generally used in your area. Apart from that, tell him you want the thickest, most dense stuff he can find at a (within reason!) while at the same time being as cheap as possible.

4. He understands that the 'inner' 2x4 wall is an entity unto itself [other than the WIC clips], but was wondering about the 2 outer walls?

:shock: TWO outer walls PLUS an inner wall??? !!! :shock: Sounds like you are building a three-leaf wall there! Bad idea! Like Brien said: photos and accurate diagrams would help a lot to understand what you are planning....

The new electrician is supposed to come over in the afternoon ...

Did you mention star grounding and separate circuits? :) - Stuart -

Hi Stuart !!! Hope all is well ... always good to hear from ya ! :) First and foremost ....

TWO outer walls PLUS an inner wall??? !!! Sounds like you are building a three-leaf wall there! Bad idea! Like Brien said: photos and accurate diagrams would help a lot to understand what you are planning....

no no ... not doing that ! I have a SU file [v8] post at the end of p6 here ... The only 2 new framed walls are the ones NOT on the concrete walls. So basically its' a single framed inner wall on 4 sides, and then an outer framed wall on the 2 exposed walls to the 'rest of the basement'. Unless I botched it up, [which I know Glenn woulda slapped me around on ;|], the walls should be as you first proposed. *** I'm posting a V7 SketchUP file [a V8 file is @ end of p.6 on this thread] All you guys have been teaching me very important concepts :) Having 'experienced' eyes looking over my shoulder is very welcomed !

Another option if your floor is very uneven, is to use some type of rubber to give you the seal.

It may well be uneven ... but for sure there is a slope ---> heads right toward the sump pump. The rubber, or "sorbothane or neoprene to decouple from the floor and/or overhead joists if you're planning to attach them." ?question? are we talking 1/4" kind of stuff ? Order wise, is it caulk on concrete, rubber on top of that, and then 2x4 ?? Sounds like a dumb questions, but I'm sure there is a tried/true method :)

As for how to attach the framing to the floor, that depends on code: Where I live (Chile, land of earthquakes) the framing has to be bolted to the floor: we don't want walls bouncing around on the floor...

ahh yeah ... reminds me of my years in LA. :shock: I guess one can never say never ... here in WNY, what we don't get with the Earth shaking, we make up for it in snow :|

use washer and rubber to decouple the floor anchors.

ok ... thanks also for the pic Glenn. I read up more on this. One thing for certain ... the concrete in this basement is the REAL DEAL [50 yrs old]. It'll take impact drill to get bolts into it [and maybe a stick of dynamite]. well ... let me get these files posted here !!! BTW .... the depiction for the studio door in the SU file is merely a placeholder. I'm modeling off of the Super Door in Rods' book for the actual design [will post later on that]. The electrician DID come today. He's also a jazz guitar teacher ... has a home studio in his basement, and could definitely relate to what I'm doing here. The first step will be clearing the joist of wires and re-routing. This WILL start Monday morning :yahoo: it's the little things in life that bring a smile to the face :) again ... BIG THANKS !!!

I have a hard time, if this were mine, trying to justify the cost and labor and the learning curve for using wic clips especially in such a small place that is not going to be subject to a lot of movement as might a longer wall or something constructed on a fault line. Installing 1/2" OSB vertically on the inside of the build would do exactly what you are attempting and would completely break any connection. You can run it all the way around the interior perimeter or use it in all corners both faces and reduce the wall to basically a five foot +/- opening that has to be filled. The joists keep the walls at a constant width so any pressure on the one wall will be aided by the opposing wall and with the addition of the lower cost OSB, you will have some extra change for aspirin :)

I was thinking the same thing. I don't see the need for sway braces or clips on relatively short walls, where plywood or OSB can do a great job of keeping it all together, plus you have the benefit of a nailing surface all around your room (if you don't build it inside out, of course). - Stuart -

Are you guys trying to save me a bunch of time, effort and MONEY !!! Bless you :D Sincerely !! Unfortunately ... I don't quite understand what you are describing.

Installing 1/2" OSB vertically on the inside of the build would do exactly what you are attempting and would completely break any connection. You can run it all the way around the interior perimeter or use it in all corners both faces and reduce the wall to basically a five foot +/- opening that has to be filled.

I don't see the need for sway braces or clips on relatively short walls, where plywood or OSB can do a great job of keeping it all together, plus you have the benefit of a nailing surface all around your room (if you don't build it inside out, of course).

Somebody mentioned pictures ... if ya have anything that visually shows what you are describing ... I'd love to get on the same page with you [especially before I start ordering thing]. Also ... the warning from Stuart !!

if you don't build it inside out, of course

Is this what I have in my design ??? Please help me get a better understanding. I very well understand that this is a small room [especially in the ceiling height]. And to be clear ... this room is solely for mixing & mastering. It will be entirely DAW based. That means I will have several 'server' computers networked to my main DAW. The ONLY other thing I would consider, is setting up my drumset in the back of the room to get some practice on. Basically, this will be a private room [so no handicap considerations necessary]. Most all my work arrives on DVD raw audio, or posted on a studio FTP storage site. Of course, with the invaluable guidance I have been given, I want to do a good job of interpreting and implementing the design. Just as Glenn has done ... if you see something in my SU file that is bad or a waste, I will be deeply grateful. Please help me visualize the better way to do this within my build limitations. Unfortunately, you are also dealing with one that does not quite know the 'lingo' of the building trade ... but I want to understand the best I can so that your design is properly executed on MY end :) Thanks to everyone here. Having the 'POWER TRIO' of Glenn, Stuart and Brien means more to me than I can express. As I'm sure you ALL are aware .... trying to explain this to other people in my life ... including those who have enjoyed my 30 yrs in the business .... they still get the 'glazed eye' syndrome, or the 'no clue, but will tell you how to do it' reaction. Monday, Nov 1st the 1st phase of building begins. Once the joists areas are cleared of several wires, we begin project 'Ceiling Beefup' exactly as Glenn has laid out. I'm gonna hit the concrete walls with a coat of nice dry-lock/mold deterrent paint. Then the show is on. But I need to have this SU design/plan solid and clear. It will be the ONLY thing I have to guide the builders with. If they see it, they will do it. Once again ... thank-you for bearing with my scatter-brained craziness ... I am without a room. can absolutely do no audio work ... and I'm jonesn'. I knew you guys would understand. thank-you.

basically use OSB panels on all of your framing to act as bracing. effectively you're adding a layer of 1/2" OSB on all the faces and then screwing your drywall into that. imho that's probably more expensive than 6 or so braces but it does make drywalling a bit easier and can contribute to the overall isolation. the outer wall can be attached to the house frame for support.