UAN - new Control Room build

Pixs of recent activities ... Getting the stack of 2" rigid in place, using 2"x2" brace With the full stack in. I added a small brace at the top of the stack to make sure it stayed put. I needed a temporary speaker stand, so I went with a design someone [Glenn?] posted. For the time being, I set up a pair of old ALTEC studio monitors. The speakers are flush to the face of the blocks. Not shown, but I had to add a 2x6 under the monitor to get the height at a better distance. I'm going to be auditioning new monitors for this room. In storage I have my NS-10m and Auratones. Have some questions to ask on electrical, HVAC, and clouds.

Next bit of construction will be the ceiling 'clouds'. This SketchUP render is from the original design by GLENN. If there are no changes to the cloud design, I'd like to start getting [at lease the desk area] put together. As a reminder, the floor to ceiling height is 82" :? , there will have to be minimal traffic in this front area [obviously], especially for us 6'-2" 'ers. I need a reminder as to materials needed. I understand that these are to have a solid backing on these panels. What would be best to use ? Also, is 4" rigid fiberglass good ?? To hang these, I'm thinking of using something like 'butterfly' bolts with an eyelet end. Then with S-hooks and chain to suspend these. Concern is whether these would be too prone to swaying ??? or maybe I should consider using a long, threaded bolt instead of a chain ? Thanks!!!!!!!!!

the eye hooks and rope would work. i'd go with the hard backing - 3/4" ply with 3/4" MDF with 4" rigid insulation in front covered with cloth.

gullfo wrote:

the eye hooks and rope would work. I'd go with the hard backing - 3/4" ply with 3/4" MDF with 4" rigid insulation in front covered with cloth.

Thanks Glenn !!! If I recall ... you wanted the very front clouds to angle down 12* :?: Do ALL the clouds get solid backs on them ? As for the other clouds ... what is the minimum distant OFF the ceiling should they hang from? The issue with an 82" ceiling height is what I have .... but I still need them to be effective [as I'm sure you understand]. The cloud, directly above the desk ... should it be 'flat' or angled ? how far off the ceiling? Positioning question: What is the best way to determine WHERE the clouds are to go, and the spacing. Should I just measure off the floor plan you did, or would the 'boundary calc' be used, or the mirror technique ? Reason I ask is that it would be very difficult to temporarily try to test the right spots :shock: Thanks for any details/clarification you could supply !!! Sincerely.

the front clouds should have the solid backs. then angle the front one steepest and the one over the desk flatter. hang the front one down so the leading edge is ~16" above your monitors and the other one say, 6" from the ceiling. the other ones - hang down 4" if possible.

Ok Glenn, I know what you are describing is probably very simple ... but MY simple brain is not grasping this :roll: To help clarify ... In your original design, you called for 8 clouds. Do ALL 8 clouds get the solid [MDF/Plywood] backing ??? or is it only the 3 clouds at the front of the room that get the solid backs ? At this point, I'm just getting my shopping list together for the materials to pick up :mrgreen: step one. THANKS!!! ****** addition ****** I ran a new REW scan of the room. This run now has the Chunky Corner traps in place. I ALSO placed 9 broadband absorbers around the room. At this point, I only have them sitting on the floor, leaning up against the walls. From the design, I have them placed approx where they go along the wall [EXCEPT for the door area]. The scan is from the [rough] mix position. The first 2 runs [L & R] are of my original ALTEC M1 monitors [old, vintage] :| The 2nd run are L & R from my NS10's that I pulled from storage. I WILL be getting a new pair of monitors for this new room ... considering everything from OPALS, to FOCALS, to BareFoots, etc. Anyway ... been reading through GLENN's posting on clouds [trying to learn about them]. I notice that the designs can be quite different [according to room needs] ... so I thought I should post a new REW scan. I would like to, then, ask more specifics on the cloud design for my room. Here's the REW file ... and, again, THANK-YOU for your guidance 8) http://www.speedyshare.com/files/295408 ... _floo.mdat Please ... anything I should do to get you the best data scans ... please inform me!

the front 3 get the backing. the rest can just be absorption only. you can see in the readings, deep nulls @ 83, 117, and 179 (probably H,W, L) with 83 and 117 being the main concerns. so the clouds will help as would some deeper (VPR?) absorbers on the sides. the null above 200 is the 2nd order mode from the width. once the 117 is tamed, the other will also be fixed. overall, the side to side (with rough placement) is fairly even.

Thanks for the analysis Glenn ! I understand we are early in the treatment, with some of the material just temporarily placed on the floor around the room ... hopefully improvements to follow ! Todays progress report. Did the Home Depot run for the 3 'hard back' clouds. I grabbed 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood AND 3/4" MDF. Had them precut to 2'x4' panels. Also grabbed some Liquid Nails, 1-1/4" coarse drywall screws, and some aluminum plaster corner beading. Table set for 'hard backed' clouds. Applied QuickGrab glue Clamped sheets together. Screwed them together. Currently have them all stacked and clamped on top of each other for drying. The plan is to assemble cages to mount onto these sandwiched panels using the same aluminum corner beads that I used on the wall broadband absorbers. The only difference would be that the cage would be open on the inside. The 'depth' bead would be fastened to the MDF/Plywood at the corners. OK? The thinking is to keep exposed the maximum surface area of the 2 layers of 2" rigid fiberglass. Is this a GOOD idea :?: CONCERN !!!! I've NOT weight these glued panels, but these DEFINITELY have some girth to them .... at least 50 lbs each .... if not more! When I add the insulation, that should be about another 18 lbs added :shock: 1st question ... [cause I cannot find that cool diagram you posted for another builder] WHAT should the layer order be ??? From the ceiling down ... is it plywood, MDF, then insulation? 2nd BIG question ... because of the weight. Thinking .... 4 'eye-bolts' [with washers] through the sandwich panels ... at LEAST 1/4" bolts ??? Then ... for the ceiling mount. Again, thinking of 'eye-bolts' into the drywall ceiling ... BUT Should I consider using something like 'butterfly' ends on the eye-bolts ???? This would mean FULL PENETRATION into the 2 layers of 5/8" drywall :shock: :?: Again, is 1/4" bolts strong enough??? Is this the way I should go ??? Following up, I considering using heavy-duty chain [with S-hooks] to attach the clouds at 4 corner points. As always .... thank you for your insights on the best way to do this! Once the mounting issue is set ... I then would like to verify the placement detail BEFORE I start putting holes in the ceiling :cop: Thanks again! Sincerely

.... some build 'castle in the sky' ...... me just working on clouds :) With the hard-backed panels glued & screwed, I started putting together the 'holding' cage for the 4" of rigid insulation. I'm trying out the idea of using the same technique as the broadband absorbers. So far: Seems like this will work. Once I get the rigid placed, I can screw the cage to the panels. :?: Still NOT sure WHAT should face the ceiling ! Plywood or MDF. My HOPE is that the PLywood would face the ceiling, so as to make attaching the fabric [possible] easier ???!? The issue of hanging these bad boyz ... Was at LOWE'S [again] ... and found this ... Seems an interesting design, because, getting that 'butterfly' to flip [with all the insulation behind the ceiling] could be tricky. This 'pull-tab' seems more workable, rather than a spring expanding out. I've never used these before ... so ??? The thought is to use 1/4" I-Bolts from into the ceiling & the panel, and S-Hooked chains. Seems it would allow 'adjustments' at a later point [if needed]. Any thoughts/ critiques ... better way !!! Thanks

plywood up - it faces the ceiling. also you can run some 1x3 to span the joists so you can be flexible in placement of the hooks and they have something solid to dig into instead of simply using drywall anchors. just paint the strips to match your ceiling color...

gullfo wrote:

plywood up - it faces the ceiling. also you can run some 1x3 to span the joists so you can be flexible in placement of the hooks and they have something solid to dig into instead of simply using drywall anchors. just paint the strips to match your ceiling color...

Hi Glenn ! you're the only one who talks to me now :? THANK-YOU !! :D Plywood WILL face the ceiling, as instructed :wink: The use of 1x3's is very interesting ... this is something I was thinking about with regard to the panels hanging on the walls, which is now confirmed by doing the clouds this way too. Obviously, besides being able to [later] move a panel ... the BIG concern are putting ANY holes in the walls/ceiling. It would [seem] that the 1x3 would help 'contain' the holes into the drywall .... hmmm ? SO ... trying to think of the best way to do this .... and I may have to draw this up to see what I'm doing ... I'll get on that right away! In a nutshell ... should I 'PRE-mount' the eye-bolts into the 1x3's , and THEN, attach the 1x3 to the ceiling [using the butterflies] ??? This would mean 3-4 holes COMPLETELY through the ceiling drywall to hold the 1x3 ? I've not weight these panels yet ... but they DO have some serious weight :shock: As aside .... I'm not to crazy about using screw eye-bolts [particularly with anything over head. .... gonna do a diagram. Thanks!

OK ... trying to visualize the furring strip [mounts] for the ceiling clouds. Want to know if this is the concept? If so ... NOT sure if I'd be tying the strips into the ceiling joist? [3" coarse drywall screws?] OR would we still use the 'butterflies' Could be tough locating those joist now that my marks are painted over :| Still trying the understand the concept ... it seems that we would then use 'screw I-Bolts' into the strip [and also into the ceiling drywall] - but NOT completely through, to hang the clouds ???? help :? oh ... another question, please ... With regard to the wall panels and the HEIGHT they should be mounted at ? My floor to ceiling is ~ 82". My broadband panels are 2'x4'x4" [to be suspended 4" off wall]. I'm trying to figure out a compromise height between sitting and standing. My TWEETER height is 50" [and I may need to raise them another inch or so] ... Basically ... do the absorbers need to be 'halfway' between floor/ceiling, or can they be raised to work while standing [I'm 6'-2" = 74"]. If they can be raised ... what limits should I observe ?? Again ... another THANK-YOU !

Howdy, Are all your clouds gonna be hard-backed? I can't see different panels on your drawing. You only need a hard-backed absorber above you mix station to reflect sound backwards. the other clouds can be plain ol' absorbers, no need for heavy duty panels. btw, love the way you created those metal frame panels. nice job!

Hi Ro !!! The drawing doesn't show, but [correct], only the front 3 absorbers will have the hardback. Which makes me wonder if I even need the furring strips on the 5 [soft] ones. They weight in at about 18 lbs. The BIG concern are putting holes in the walls/ceiling :| BTW ... been following your build thread ! Last I read the final layer went up on the ceiling. Is that NOT a joy to be done with :D the cages ... yeah, it's been interesting putting them together. They start out so flimsy [and razor sharp] ... but when all the pieces got riveted, I was really surprised how durable they are. As I get things ready to hang them, I find myself STILL trying to 'invent' a good hooking design for them :roll: Soon the decision will have to be made. Right now they're just leaning up against the walls. Together with the corner traps, I'm liking how the stereo [radio] is starting to sound. Finally got an antenna up to pull in this Canadian & NPR jazz station. It was nice to hear piano, drums and DOUBLE bass. :mrgreen: And the treatment is not even in place yet. Can't wait to start working the room ... still pulling together the AC & ventilation, along with everything else. Glenn has been a godsend with ALL his help and guidance! I'm thrilled & grateful beyond words. Best wishes to you and family Ro ! :)

thanx RJ :) I've been playing around with the same idea of making steel frames for my absorbers. Will prolly use standard metalstuds :) experimenting is cool. hanging those clouds can be a pain indeed. But adding a piece of wood on the ceiling first and hang ye cloud there is the way to go.

OK ... playing around with cloud mount idea ... Is this the way I should be hanging these clouds ? Basically .... 1x3 wood strips that are drywall screwed to the ceiling joists, and then a 'butterfly bolt' through the wood & ceiling drywall. Attach an eye-bolt, then an S-hook to a chain down to an eye-bolt mounted to the plywood/MDF board. There would be 4 in the corners per cloud. BTW ... I put the boards on a scale, and they clocked in at 50 lbs. With the addition of insulation and cage [etc], should be another 18lbs ... so it looks like EACH panel will weigh in at about 70 lbs [each]. Not as bad as I first thought ... still, not to take lightly. How OFF am I in hanging idea :roll: Is there a better way ???

if you can just hang then into the joists, best, 1x3 next best. the toggle is probably over doing it but if you feel safer that way then do it. you do want to get your friend caulk in there to seal that hole though.

Thank you Glenn! I can tell that you must be very busy at this time, and I definitely appreciate your advice 8) If I may re ask a question about the 'hanging' height of the wall broadband absorbers panels. Due to the, still unknown, amount/placement of treatment that may be required beyond what you diagrammed in your design for me ... [along with minimizing holes to the walls] ... What recommendation would you have placing these wall panels. The panels are 2'x4'x4". The walls are ~82" high. My 'tweets' are at 51" from the floor. When sitting ... ear height is 50". Standing ear height is 68". What height would be the best. Obviously, seated while mixing is priority ... but I'd like to get a good standing listen too? Thanks again! :wink:

Gee ... I HOPE all is well with our resident GURU and Guardian Angel, Glenn !!! May he be busy creating someone another masterpiece ... and making a bunch $$$. Sincerely.

You may be asking too much from a 4 foot tall treatment. You should consider the seating position first, and take care of that with your treatments. If, when you stand, your treatments are below or @ your ear level, simply construct a treatment extension that helps to reach both of your goals.

xSpace wrote:

You may be asking too much from a 4 foot tall treatment. You should consider the seating position first, and take care of that with your treatments. If, when you stand, your treatments are below or @ your ear level, simply construct a treatment extension that helps to reach both of your goals.

hmmm ... this is what I'm trying to figure out. Absolutely the seating position in the critical [initial] treatment ... but here's the thing ... I've not figured out how to temporarily place the panels in position to try an REW measurement. :? When I refer to Glenns' design, he placed the panels, some, 19" off the floor. What I would LIKE to assume, is that Glenn did this for a specific reason. Or perhaps, he was merely showing the 'typical' idea of where the panels might hang. I've been all over this site [and Ethan's site], and other than a 1st reflection zone calculator, nothing seems to address the vertical placement issue. Is there any available documentation that I could be directed to, to better understand ?? Thanks!!!

Progress Report .. After several busy weeks with band, I was able to get some time in hanging my broadband absorbers :yahoo: After much searching on the height issue of hanging on the walls, I tried to figure a sensible approach to this. Here was the thinking ... the height of my monitors have a 'center' measurement of 45" from the floor to the 'point' between the woofer & the tweeter. I used THAT point as my center of the absorber, going 2' above and below the 'monitor center'. The then figured a distance to screw in a 1x3 into the walls that would hold the wall hooks. Once I located the wall studs, using both a stud finder and a magnet, I mounted the 1x3 I then modified some wall hooks, cutting off the insert so that I can attach directly to the 1x3 with a 1" drywall screw. On the back of the absorber panels, I riveted hooks that allowed an S-hook and chain to be attached. At the bottom of the panel, I'm trying out 4" bolts that are locked to the frame. I added a sticky pad that should provide some vibration transfer attenuation. Some views around the work room. At this point I have the panels in a 'raw' state [no fabric] until I'm certain the treatment is working and positioned correctly. The placement of the panels ... hmmm. Well ... the ONLY panels that got positioned SPECIFICALLY were the 1st panels on the side walls in front of the main corner traps. For this I used the 'Wall Bounce Calculator' to see how that worked ... but, with an assistant, we slid a mirror along the wall while I looked for the 'opposite' side monitor to be visible. I moved back & forth in the chair to view at close [leaned in] position AND back at the 'focus' behind the head position ... we found a good balance point to position THAT panel. The next panel [directly at the main seating position was also set with leaning back and forth in mind. The front wall panels are basically centered inside the monitors. The door panel still needs to go on ... AND the very back wall, but that is on hold until we get the HVAC unit installed. We are going with the MITSUBISHI MSZ-FE12NA and MUZ-FE12NA Mr SLIM ductless AC/HEAT system, as it seems the only sensible option given the house and room layout. Well, at this point, I can truly relay that a sonic transformation has taking place in this room! I have yet to get new measurements ... but they are coming. Also coming up will be the 'Hanging of the Clouds'. I was reading in another thread, Brien discussing the hanging method, using 'buckles & eye hooks, with threaded rods [I believe]. I'll be visiting our hardware stores to see what has already been invented :wink: So ... that 's it for the moment ... Thanks for following along and comments critiques always needed. Thank-you

Preparing to install the 3 hard backed clouds at the front of the room ... but I have a question as to the spacing. In the design by Glenn. The front 2 clouds are shown to be spaced 9-3/4" apart. The cloud directly above the seating position is ~6" spaced from the pair in front. With NO way to 'test' mount these [and having to drill holes into the ceiling] :| I sure could use some confirmation that this is the layout to follow ?!?!? Awaiting your guidance ... and THANKS !!!

RJHollins wrote:

May he be busy creating someone another masterpiece ... and making a bunch $$$.

no more money i'm afraid, just the day job got very busy the past month with a lot of critical deadlines. a few more weeks and things should get sane again. :wink: meanwhile... the panels on the walls - roughly 2' down from the ceiling which in an 8' high room means the center of a 4' absorber is about 4' - just a first guess really pending actual monitor placement. so a lower room with the absorber 2' down would be the 18-19" you mention. centering them on the acoustic center of the monitors works for me. on the clouds, the multiple clouds lets' you have the front ones steeper and lower so there is a decent sized air space behind it (so later we can add more trapping if needed) and the second set covers any other ceiling reflections but also being angled provides some additional broadband effects. the remaining ones across the ceiling provide some absorption and control the floor ceiling reflections.

Hi Glenn !!! So glad to hear from you ... and thank-you once again for the explanation with the treatment. Speaking of which ... time for a progress update !!! Once the wall panels were mounted ... which had a dramatic effect [along with the corner traps] in the acoustics of the room ... it was time to get these clouds installed. Since all of my stud marking eventually got covered by layers of drywall, and then the flooring ... it was necessary to verify the locations of the ceiling joists AND the, 'ever to be avoided', original floor joists ! Should be simple :roll: Well, armed with a new stud finder [which BTW can be somewhat embarrassing to ask for], AND a decent magnet, I went scanning the ceiling to locate where the ceiling joists AND the 2 schedules of drywall screws where ... and marked them with some blue tape. Verifying against a few other measurements, we were cautiously optimistic :roll: Since all the joists were 16" OC ... the plan was to insert 'toggle' bolts BETWEEN the original floor joist and the ceiling joist. The eye bolt spacing, I figured, should also follow the 16" OC spacing. With that in mind, we began chalk lining the layout on the ceiling, both for the panel spacing as Glenn designed, and then with the offsets as to where the actual bolts hit. On the 2'x4' panel, we backed off 4" from the edge [short side] to give us a 16" spacing. On the LONG side, I figured that 2" off the edge would give us enough support AND to be able to get are fingers in there to hook the panels up. Some pixs: Here you can see the 'long legged' HD - 1/4" Snap toggles installed. The rating on these guys is 265 lbs [in 1/2" drywall]. Since we have 1-1/4" drywall up there, these should be plenty to handle these 70lb clouds [4 toggles per]. They don't look like much, but they were very easy to install, as you have to pull on the leg to toggle FLAT the metal piece that the bolt goes into. Since we have insulation above that is dampening down on this ceiling, I thought these would work better than trying to get a 'butterfly' toggle to open without issue. Sure enough ... these all went in fine. AND ... we did NOT hit any joists :yahoo: closer peek Once inserted and toggled ... you slide the retainer up into the ceiling ... then bend the legs back and forth till they snap off. From there the eye bolt and washer were tightened. Next ... prepping the hardback clouds. The 3/4" MDF and Plywood layers had earlier been 'LiquidNailed' and screwed together. We then mounted the 4 eyebolts/washers/locknuts in place [plywood side facing the ceiling]. Adding 2 layers of 2" KNAUF rigid fiberglass [same from broadband and chunky corner traps] positioned on the MDF side. Then set the open cage to hold the fiber attached to the wood panels. Using 1" drywall screws, the cage was secured to the boards. To attach ... we used a combo of S-hooks and double chains for the eye-hooks. for the 'rear' attachment, I used J-hooks that I bent back to hook directly to the eyehooks mounted on the panels. A view of the single panel above the mix position [from the side] a view from the door area shows the 3 clouds mounted. From behind the chair Tough to get decent pixs with my IPhone :| Slope/angle distance ... The 2 front panels are spaced 9 3/4" apart from each other. At the 'leading edge', the space from the ceiling to the plywood is 6-1/4" giving an angle of ~ 14*. The distance from top of monitor to the bottom edge of the cage is 14" The 3rd panel [behind these] is spaced ~ 7" away. It's 'leading edge' is 4-1/4" from the ceiling, giving an angle of ~ 6.25* As mentioned, the addition, now, of these 3 clouds has brought a significant change to the room acoustics. The sound stage is starting to come into focus :mrgreen: Last night I was experimenting with the projection depth of the monitors BEHIND the listeners head. I was reading comments by Rod Gervais where he mentioned that he 'typically' uses a 14" to 16" focus distant [behind] the listeners head. I'm still experimenting with these distances. Right now I'm aimed at a 12" distance [using a 'marker' mic stand and a squaring lazer beam to adjust the toe'ing angle. I'd be VERY interested to hear Glenn's views on this aspect. That's it for the moment ... oh ... we have an HVAC system in boxes in the garage 8) pixs to come ... I think, before going any further, that I should re-shoot the room and see where things are at in REW. Try to get to that very soon! Thanks everyone! Please let my know if you see issue or suggestions! THANKS!