Warehouse studio design - are you able to help?

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Nice place!! Why don't you get John to de design the studio for you? Having such a nicely place, it deserves a pro like him to make wonders with it! Otherwise, you still need months of learning and diggin into this forum to really make it happen. (I mean by your proposed ideas, so far, just squares and rectangles. You do know proper 2 leaf MSM designs? ) Just my advice If I had a place like that, No doubt John would get the prize

Hi jbassino, Yes I would definitely like John's input! I do understand 2 leaf MSM design and avoiding parallel surfaces etc etc.... However I AM hopeless with Sketchup! ;-) I mentioned that those ideas were just to give an idea of where in the building each room could be placed, rather than the actual shape - it took me weeks to sketch up the shell in its current state, I don't know where to begin trying to correctly put together a nice 3d model of how the overall layout might look. I understand that could have got lost in the rest of the guff in my post. ;-) I'm blown away by the Sketchup designs some others are able to come up with!

Rhino, welcome to JLS. Excellent introduction!

Hello Rhino. I'd be willing to give it a shot. But I need your .skp file. If you are interested, shoot me a PM and I'll send you my email addy so you can send me the file. fitZ

Thanks for the welcome, Ro. Any suggestions you can offer will be valued!

Hi cadesignr, Thanks very much for the interest. Of course I'd love for you to give it a shot. The skp file is up there in my first post for anyone who would like to download it and have a play. I'll PM you as well just in case. I'll have a battle with Sketchup again over the next few days and see if I can come up with anything. Exciting stuff! :)

Ok, I had a play with another idea. Again, please excuse the lack of Sketchup skill. Let me know what you think! Notes: I made the loading bay a little wider to accomodate unloading of a van from the side. The hallways from the loading bay to the live room are 1.8m wide for gear access (is this enough/too much?) The control room is not based on any ratio - I'm unsure how to measure this when the ceiling and walls are splayed?

Here's a list of the rooms (or areas) that we need to fit into the building: Control room Live room Vocal booth Iso booth Video suite 1 Video suite 2 Machine room?/archive room Workbench Rehearsal/writing room Office/editing room Storage

we'd like a world class studio for a minimal outlay, isn't it always the way?!

:shock: :mrgreen:

STAGE At this stage we have secured the building and received keys. Construction is due to begin on 1st of October, to be completed as soon as realistically possible. We'll throw open the doors for business in January.

G'day Rhino. I downloaded your basic Warehouse plan and Idea 3 this morning. Will start to work immedietly. But let me put this into perspective. Your project is a HUGE undertaking, with an ambitious if not unrealistic time line. I don't know about New Zealand Building Code process, but from my experience, just getting a set of code compliant plans completed for this scope of project could take months, not to mention getting it APPROVED by the compliance authority. :roll: This is NOT a typical wham bam thank you mam home studio in the outback of suburbia. If I understand anything(world class studio)this is a full blown commercial project, which means, most likely must comply with COMMERCIAL building codes and inspections. This means permits, which if experience means anything, at least in the US, can be a lesson in hindsight, not to mention naivity. Thats not to say I think you personally are naive, but it appears that your initial time frame is not reasonable. I'd submit, just to prepare a set of working drawings of this scope for submittal to your local BID for permit issue, is at best a challange for even a person familiar with your local building codes, let alone for an owner/builder with lack of local professional consultation. In other words..you MAY be in for a rude awakening. As an example, consider a section of the USB(Uniform building Code) that became applicable to a project I helped my former employer with after he IGNORED the permitting process and modified an existing building he owned to lease to a client. My boss, being a self made millionare, was accustomed to doing as he pleased, without regard for things that could jeprodise his project progress and or his wallet. In this case, he used employees of his Architectural Mill/Store Fixture business, to remodel one of the suites in a StripMall he owned, for a client who leased it for a private Educational business. When the project was about 75% finished, a local Building Inspector happened to walk by, and seeing construction taking place with NO Permit posted on the premisis, proceeded to file an official STOP WORK order under threat of lockup. After an initial inspection of the premisis, my boss was advised that in order for him to proceed, he must submit all the applicable documents to BID to procure a Building Permit. Which under normal circumstances could have been a relatively easy task had he done it in the first place. However, once a Stop Work order is issued, BID requires FULL compliance with the codes AND a FINE, which in this case cost over $4k alone. Not to mention the fact that because the clients business was open to the public, AND produced a BUILDING LOAD Maximum of 40 people, now required a full remodel to meet Title 24...ie...Handicap compliance. To make a long story short, my boss had to not only submit plans showing this compliance, but also all other compliance plans as well...ie...electircal, plumbing, egress, Fire Sprinkling, HVAC, construction details and others, and DEMO all existing new work and that existing portion which allowed for Title 24 and other issues compliance. End result..loss of and sued by client, cost of all work without permit, fines, new work including Handicap Bathroom plumbing relocation, professional Electrical and Mechanical Engineer consultation and documentation prep/stamp AND since this was a commercial project, a Misdemeanor charge in a court of law. Needless to say, I believe this story MAY be applicable to yours. Rhino, I don't mind spending time on your project. However, this is not something I take lightly nor with a grain of salt. When I design, I get right down to the nuts and bolts. And it takes time, especially one of this scale and scope. And LOTS of information, which I am accustomed to organizing for projects of this scope. Here is an example. Let me give you an idea of where I am coming from. I've been in the field of design/fabrication for more than 30 years. I've worked on over 2000 projects, which range from one of a kind high end furniture projects to fixture design and fabrication for over 300 floors of MACY's. I am fluent in Autocad and other programs such as Sketchup. I've been studying recording studio design for over 20 years, as I am a musician and home studio owner myself. So I approach projects such as yours from a professional level. However, since we are communicating on a public forum, and your project is so big, I feel I must warn you that this will take quite a bit of time to even organize into a coherent design, let alone a set of workable plans. In that regard, I also feel a little apprehensive about spending this much time on a forum project without knowing a few facts, which I will privately email you about. Once satisfied, I will be happy to help you. Untill then, here is something I already had previously drawn which may or may not be applicable to your control room design criteria, but may illustrate my insight into your direction for them. At one time I had a similar design challange, and this was but one of many concept drawings. Please keep in mind this is only a concept drawing and is FAR from actually being detailed. Ok, gotta go now, But I'll take a look and organize a set of questions. Untill then Cheeers! fitZ

Hello Rhino. One thing you need to know about me is I'm a pro DETAILER. Which means I draw things AS they really will be built...ie I need to know what I'm working with EXACTLY as built. Are the things you've drawn in the file ACCURATE? I hope so. Right now, I need to put in the drawing everything that is there...relative to the depth of knowlege I need to design this project. This means I need lots of dimensions and pictures. :wink: Here is the first thing. Cheers fitZ

BTW, just to give you an example of the detail I go to, here is one drawing of 65 I've already posted on another bbs for a small Home Studio. Maybe this will help you understand why I need a lot of info. cheers. fitZ

Thanks for your excellent post cadesignr. You've offered some good food for thought. Regarding the timeline; yes, it is extremely ambitious and I might have been a little hasty in saying "throwing open the doors in January". To clarify that, we'd like to begin bringing in a bit of income in January. I quite expect that it will take us at least a couple of years to get the studio anywhere near the "world class" facility we're (again extremely ambitiously) aiming for. But what IS important is that we at least have the plan sorted out before any construction begins, so that we can begin by building the right bones. I'd hate to have to pull walls down again if we start with them in the wrong place! From there we can continue to work on it over the next couple of years. Come January we'd at least like to have the video suites (or temporary rooms available to use as video suites), as that side of the business will be income generating from day one. We'd like the basic room 'shells' to be in place so that we can be recording clients, heavily discounted of course. If we have at least a vocal booth then we can be doing voiceovers. With a live room 'space', the band can be rehearsing. Any control room will be as good as what I'm using at the moment! Those basic things must be in place by January then we can stop paying rent on the current studio, which will of course allow for progression on the new studio. Regarding the last design I posted above, I'm realising that the rehearsal room and 'office/edit' room will be a touch too small. I'm dreaming up a new layout around that area... I'm also concerned about the windows above the booths allowing sunlight to shine right into my eyes through the control room window. Maybe a curtain/blind system? Maybe forego the natural light altogether? Any comments/suggestions (from anyone!) on that design are most welcome. :)

Sorry fitZ, I forgot to respond to your other post. I can see that you ARE pro detailer and I like that! As far as the dimensions of my sketch go, yes they are accurate to the best of my ability. The only 'unknown' on my sketch is the height of each 'tooth' of the roof; ie from the top of the side wall up to the peak of the roof. I don't have any easy way to measure this. So I took a photo of the 'right-angled triangle' as square on as possible, and judged that the distance between beams is 2.5x that of the height. (or put another way, the height is 20% of the distance between beams). My measurement between beams is accurate of course. I wasn't too concerned about the 'tooth' measurement being only an 'educated estimate', as I didn't expect there'd be too much construction going on in that area! Thus I also don't have much of the other roof information you have requested. If this is paramount to what you have in mind then I will endeavour to hire a large ladder and set to work with a measuring tape. The lowest '?' in your picture (ie. the roof height at lowest point) is accurate in my sketch at 3.31m. Would it help you if I took some more photos detailing the roof construction?

I wasn't too concerned about the 'tooth' measurement being only an 'educated estimate', as I didn't expect there'd be too much construction going on in that area!

Hello Rhino. I understand. However, HEIGHT of the control and stiudio rooms is of utmost importance, and I'm endeavoring to use all that is available. :D I've got a list of questions almost completed, and will email them to you soon. However, I have started some conceptual work and will toss some ideas at you soon. fitZ

Hello Rhino. Well, I thought I better post an update on my progress. Haven't had much time as I'm in the middle of remodeling my father in laws mobile home. But, in order to gather enough questions, I thought I would play around with your latest plan..ie..Idea 3. Please don't think this is in any way my beginning solutions to your project. These are only samplings of things I'm drawing to gain an overall view of specific problems and floor space layout. However, the questions ARE emerging from this little exercise. There is lots more to come. These are only to show you I haven't dropped the ball. I'll post the question list soon. BTW, the first one may illustrate why I wanted to know the height to the top of the windows. And some of this is simply for fun. Gotta have that too!!:mrgreen: Plus, these are full of "components" that I will use in future models. Right now, I'm working on your last set of criteria. I'll post an overall plan real soon. In the meantime.... fitZ

fitZ that's just brilliant! I'm very excited. :) I'm curious to see if the control room design you have in mind fits in with the layout I've suggested, or would you put the control room elsewhere in the building? (Or make it a different size or shape?) Here's my updated layout suggestion. (the control room and recording spaces haven't changed). Still welcoming any comments from anyone!

fitZ that's just brilliant! I'm very excited

I'm glad you liked it. But like I said, this is only brainstorming ideas, and building a collection of models to use within the actual solution, which may take a while. In reality, I have a lot of questions based around a few general subjects. Like these, which are not in order of importance. 1. Budget 2. Legal 3. HVAC, Mechanical and Electrical 4. Existing conditions 5. Required Transmission Loss to a. adjacent external world b. intra room(Studio to control room mostly, but certainly to other rooms as well 6. How close to "world class" ...ie... equipment, TL, space, amenities etc. 7. Acoustics 8. Personal Design preferences 9. Code compliance 10. Material/hardware/specialty fabrication availabiliaty 11 Labor 12 Other These are more or less the areas of my list of questions. Once known, these will influence my actual final design. Understand this though. To ultimately achieve successfull implementation of the final design, the process SHOULD require a designer to personally inspect the facility in question. To consult with local BID for code application and local code interpretation authority(possible architectural and structural/mechanical/electrical engineers), vendors, contractors, and perform duties that are pertinent to the constuction. NORMALLY, these duties would be performed by 1. Project Designer 2. Licensed contractor 3. Owner/builder However, since you have solicited online help for the design phase, you must understand the difficulty this method presents. Even if a set of solutions to all the problems inherent in a project of this scope could be addressed online, successfull implementation is doubful, at least from my perspective and from my experience, unless personal and Legal Designer oversight is included in the process, it appears that many potential pitfalls may occur at any stage of the design process, let alone actual construction process. Also understand this. Successful studio construction is DETAIL dependant, not only in terms of Design, but construction as well. One overlooked arbitrary contractor decision can be costly, not only in financial/legal terms, but project integrity/performance as well. This is why I hesitate to spend time arbitrarily tossing designs on the net for commercial endeavors. To me, this is SERIOUS business. Thats why I have to address EVERYTHING. The whole is only as good as its elements, and since commercial t studios are a complex(maybe not like a hospital) and dynamic projects, it behooves me to point out the potential for failure under these circumstances. Especially if the final design is by internet concensus. Not only do projects of this scope require many professional/trade expertises and skill sets, but overall project design legal oversite too. Unless you have a coherent set of construction documents to begin with, the chances of actually building what the design calls for are pretty slim. By contrast, architects will NEVER agree to design online, as their profession dictates absolute legal authority over their projects through contractural and professional oversight. Well, I won't go on. I'm sure you get my drift. This isn't to say I can't offer some of my own expertise. Its just my own apprehension that this method is viable for successful implementation of the design. Unfortunately, I'm a sucker for this stuff. :roll: Hence, I'll give it a shot. :mrgreen:

I'm curious to see if the control room design you have in mind fits in with the layout I've suggested

Actually, it is YOUR idea 3 control room plan that I used for the basic outline. I decided to do one from YOUR criteria first, and contrast that to one I am working on that is different in size/shape so you can see the difference. I hadn't finished the side/rear walls and ceiling. Remember though, these are only conceptual...not construction models. There are TONS of things to address once you/me get a handle on the room plan and interior design. Which btw includes acoustical treatment/equipment/lighting/HVAC and lots of other details which influence the final concept. I just haven't had time to get that far. BTW, I WILL be RENDERING some of the models as I go. But I have to be selective, as it takes an enormous amount of time to render each choice. Even exporting, compressing, uploading multiple Jpegs to a host takes time.

or would you put the control room elsewhere in the building? (Or make it a different size or shape?)

That is the point. It may be. What I'd like to know is what is outside the end of the building where you have the iso rooms? Got some more pics?

Here's my updated layout suggestion.

Downloaded it for review last night. BTW Rhino, don't let my apprehension and negative outlook on this method discourage you. Its my lack of time that bothers me most. If I was under a contractural obligation, I'd be working on it full time. But since I am not, well, you have to take it as I can get to it, which may allow others to suggest things which may negate my time spent. Thats the problem. I hate wasting what I have so little of to give away. Anyway, I'll review your latest ideas, and post my opinion/alternative as soon as possible. cheers fitZ

I wonder if the high part of this ceiling should be softened up, a more relaxed incline? Seems like it could present about as many reflective issues as it could solve. http://httpics.com//is.php?i=769&img=wa ... _studi.jpg It's a nice look so far, I'm just looking with the rest of ya ;)

Seems like it could present about as many reflective issues as it could solve.

Untill you understand the purpose is to make a place ifor a superchunk of 703. That's why I shouldn't post jpgs till the concepts are in place. :roll: And thats not the only reason for it.

One of us should slow down or the other should speed up... :roll:

One of us should slow down or the other should speed up..

Excuse me? Where were YOU when Rhino asked for help? In fact, please show me your coherent alternative or I will continue without you.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Temper, temper! Brien just seemed to be making a friendly joke, the way I see it. He hardly deserved that response! And his comment on the rear ceiling design is dead on. Reflection city, for sure! Not to mention the pointless slope of the front portion of the ceiling... - Stuart -

cadesignr wrote:

Excuse me? Where were YOU when Rhino asked for help?

I was waiting for someone with a fair amount of talent to do what I cannot do. And there you are. But even talent has a limit and on a worldwide board there are no private threads and everyone waits for another voice:) If you would rather argue I can do that just as easily. But my point is what you know it to be sir, if you forgot something in your design you shouldn't want to blast the peanut gallery for making mention of this. It is not an err on my part simply an omission of information on yours. I recognize, now, this is not an exchange of information thread and you have deemed it private. It shall be that way in the future, if this is your desire.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Temper, temper!

Phuuleeeese. Spare me.

Brien just seemed to be making a friendly joke, the way I see it.

Perhaps. But you weren't in my neck of the woods.

He hardly deserved that response! And his comment on the rear ceiling design is dead on. Reflection city, for sure!

I don't have to qualify my intent to you or anyone else save the author of this thread. You have a right to your opinion, however, like I told you before, you should offer them to Mr. Newell, Mr. Manzella or Mr Latchot. I'm sure they'll address them in one form or another.

Not to mention the pointless slope of the front portion of the ceiling...

ummmm, let me quote Mr. Newell

1.5.2 Height It is very difficult to make a good quality studio, free of problematical compromises, in a space with inadequate height. Control rooms require height because of the need to avoid parallelism between the floor and the ceiling. At low frequencies, all suitable floors are reflective, so the ceilings must be designed such that monitor response problems are not created by the vertical room modes. As will become apparent in later chapters, all forms of suitable treatment for the ceilings are wavelength dependent. So if a metre is needed for the ceiling structure, and 20 cm or so for a floated floor, then to maintain a ceiling height of 2.5m within the room, something approaching 4 m will be needed in the empty space before construction.

Where were you when he wrote his book? You could have saved him a lot of trouble. Perhaps you can offer your opinion so he can revise this chapter for the next release.