Studio Above Garage

Thank you John. I think, personally, that if this job is going to move forward then the question is, how do the viewers keep up with it? If we are in the middle of a transition where the casual viewer is about to be taped at the mouth to have no input, again, how do we as viewers keep up. If Companies like soundproof and greenglue , et. al, are reducing these forums to a "first come first serve" format then what is the want or need of your 10,000+ subscribers? Where is it that I fit and people like me might fit? Is this the first hand slap or the final?

well Brien - I basically said to Ted that if he comes to this site then state clearly what his involvement and company is. There were a series of posters who were purely spamming some company or other but not identifying where there connection is. Ted offered to advertise on the site but I knocked him back because I don't want to be seen as a sponsor for green glue, or any other product for that matter. I wish to remain free to give my opinion on products without any accusations of bias. Ethan has been spamming on this site since day 1 as has a couple of his associates. What do a I do - ban them? GIK acoustics were here for awhile spamming as well and if you really want to be cynical Lou's thread was a total spam for the UK company he employed to build his studio, a cynic could easily ask which came first, lou's posts, or lou's involvement with the company. I can tell you for a fact that not one of these companies has ever hit the orange donate button. ;) your contribution will always be appreciated on this site - and it wasn't meant as a handslap :)

Well, everyone has convinced to me to build on the first floor. Since this will be a new structure, my options are now open for a new design. I have been reading about and talking to people who suggest that I use cinder blocks filled with concrete vs. a double studded wood framed wall system. Any thoughts on this?

any thoughts on this? - yup - you'll have the double stud frame up before they get the concrete mixer in place. A double stud wall frame with 2 x layers of drywall per frame will satisfy most recording situations, it's what I use in the majority of my designs. (in the others I use only one layer of drywall) :) - if you want to increase the isolation further add green glue or equivalent between the sheets.

I agree. The double stud wall so fast, easy inexpensive and can be high performance if mass-loaded (drywall / plasterboard), insulated and deep.

John Sayers wrote:

There were a series of posters who were purely spamming some company or other...

It annoys me, pushing product. It should go without saying, but many of these companies would not have a market if the Internet were not available. Foolish thing for me to say, but I say foolish things. Mr. White is a victim of my arrogance against this type of marketing. (Does this need an explanation? It means I am an Internet snob ;) ) edit: He (Ted White) seems educated in his field and has always accommodated my sometimes rude and confrontational nature. I am still not convinced that constrained layer damping in a DIY build is more of an improvement then spending the time it takes to learn the proper wall assembly techniques rather than throwing a magic liquid on the barrier only to tell anyone who will listen the virtues of green glue and basically deboning the decades of work that has gone into collating and making this information available to the general public. But, that's just me. Rude and Confrontational as always, Brien Holcombe

Brien - when he first came to this site Ted identified himself to me and asked my permission to post here. I have allowed him to post. He also offered to support the forum with sponsorship and as I've said before - I'd prefer not to have product sponsorship. He them followed it up with a generous donation to the site via the donate button. I have no problem with him posting here, he appears to have good knowledge and I'm happy for him to share it on this forum.

Yes sir, I thought I just said something similar to that?

No you didn't - you said "It annoys me, pushing product. " and then had a go at Ted. "Mr. White is a victim of my arrogance" I was informing you that Ted has my approval to post here. I agree with you about the product as you well know. I've already said I prefer standard wall design because it's cheap and efficient, Ted agrees. But there are times where GG is a great bonus, eg basement to upstairs, so I don't deny Ted the right to hawk GG here in return for him assisting members with their questions when he can. maybe he could offer our members a discount on GG :)

Well, here is an update. I have talked to the city regarding building my additional structure and it looks like I will need a variance. I also spoke to my neighbor who will be the most affected - he was not pleased because I will be building 3 feet off our property line. My question for everyone is: will this be worth a "fight?" I know that ideally it is better to build on the ground floor with a proper slab but will my original design on top of my garage be acceptable? Will the second story studio be so terrible with sound bouncing all over the place and leaving the building that it will be unusable? Will the difference be so noticeable between the second floor vs. first floor? I know I will not get professional sound quality but will the sound quality be fine? Would the quality and lack of sound isolation of a second floor studio be so poor that it is not worth building? Thanks

jpricekc wrote:

Would the quality and lack of sound isolation of a second floor studio be so poor that it is not worth building?

Not at all. You will just have to take care with the details of the overall build on the second floor. People do this all the time very successfully.

I was going to build above my garage. Rod's book warns against it. An elevated wood deck (your floor) will resonate and vibrate and pass sound. Unfortunately, it is hard to get isolation there without adding a huge amount of weight, that you stucture may not be able to support. You can put in a concrete floor or a sand filled floor, both are extremely heavy. Using the traditional "room inside a room" will add a lot of weight. If you have ridge vents and soffit vents, it is hard to get a sealed outer leaf. Here are the "above the garage" links to the others I know about. ... viewtopic.php?t=8426 viewtopic.php?t=9178 viewtopic.php?t=6932&highlight= viewtopic.php?p=60097&highlight=#60097 viewtopic.php?t=6932&highlight= I don't know of one "above the garage" isolating studio that was ever completed and shown on this board. There have been some that didn't need much sound isolation. I've decided to build in my basement when I get the time. Best of luck.

Great! Thank you. I will take a look at those threads. The plan currently calls for 1 1/2" of concrete to be laid down below wood flooring. Then (ceiling of garage) underneath the joists I will add 2 layers of drywall with green glue. The question is whether this will be enough mass. I need to make sure I do not create a triple leaf. I am adding extra support in my garage to handle this weight. I am attaching floor/sub floor plans.

...enough mass. One can never seem to have enough mass. Consider decoupling the drywall on the ceiling below. Decoupled framing will drop the LF resonance point quite a bit. R19 fiberglass.

John Sayers Wrote:

Ethan has been spamming on this site since day 1 as has a couple of his associates. What do a I do - ban them? GIK acoustics were here for awhile spamming as well and if you really want to be cynical Lou's thread was a total spam for the UK company he employed to build his studio, a cynic could easily ask which came first, lou's posts, or lou's involvement with the company.

Folks, I realise this is a late response, but I've only just seen it. I can categorically confirm that I have never had, (or currently have), any financial involvement with the people who 'built out' my facility other than the money I paid them. Furthermore, my posts to this forum were over a year in advance of their eventual involvment, as my thread clearly confirms. I hope this clarifies the matter. Kind regards to all, Lou. 8)

point taken Lou - as I said - you'd have to be totally cynical which I'm not ;)

britune wrote:

I was going to build above my garage. Rod's book warns against it.

OK, let's see if we can gt this right......... I never EVER said - (in my book or elsewhere) to not build above garages (or in attics - or on 1st / 2nd floors, etc., etc.). What I did do was point out the problems relating to attempting to build isolation assemblies from elevated wood decks, and this was specificaly related to constructing floating isolated assemblies. I have (quite sucessfully) led people through builds above their garages (although they always seemed to have breezways between the house and garage - which (I think) helped to make it work. I have also (quite sucessfully) designed rooms inside of buildings (1st floor of a middle unit in a NYC Brownstone building being a great example) where paying attention to detail and careful planning created rooms that can be used 24 hours a day - although probably not with heavy metal and 1200 watt Marshall Amps. People tend to get tunnel vision - and (unfortunately) miss out on some big pictures because of it. If there was any one thing that I would like remembered about my book (from an advice point of view) it would be that (in the end) we are dealt the cards we are dealt, and thus have to work with the spaces we have to work with. I said repeatedly in the book things like - "there will be times where you are forced into things like triple leaf wall assemblies" (this after I said avoid them like the plague) - "however - you can't change what you can't change - so live with the cards you are dealt and make the rest of what you have the best that you can make it". One thing that helps with installations on normal floors - above garages - in attics, etc. is to develope a floor above the original floor using a solid mass of 2" 703 for an iso pad (stops dead any drum action effect) with multiple layers of overlapped plywood above that (green glue between layers if it's called for). This not only physically isolates the deck - but adds a little insulation in the mix which will help with the mid lows........ There are materials and processes I have developed uses for over the past 3 years that I was not using at the time of the book release - I will include these in the 2nd edition. Please don't paint pictures quite so black and white when using my material as a reference - I really did try to show that there is plenty of grey in this as well. Thanks, Rod

Thank you Rod for your clarification. In your post you wrote: "One thing that helps with installations on normal floors - above garages - in attics, etc. is to develop a floor above the original floor using a solid mass of 2" 703 for an iso pad (stops dead any drum action effect) with multiple layers of overlapped plywood above that (green glue between layers if it's called for)." Instead of doing 2" of 703 my plans call for 1 1/2" lightweight concrete. May I assume this will be a suitable replacement?

jpricekc wrote:

Thank you Rod for your clarification. In your post you wrote: "One thing that helps with installations on normal floors - above garages - in attics, etc. is to develop a floor above the original floor using a solid mass of 2" 703 for an iso pad (stops dead any drum action effect) with multiple layers of overlapped plywood above that (green glue between layers if it's called for)." Instead of doing 2" of 703 my plans call for 1 1/2" lightweight concrete. May I assume this will be a suitable replacement?

lightweight concrete is around 14 psf of mass - so from an isolation point of view for air transmitted sounds it will go quite a way in helping you out. But from the view of flanking transmissions - not only will it not help it might actually hurt. The 703 decouples - the concrete is actually a pretty decent transmitter when looked at from the viewpoint of structurally transmitted sounds..... So no - it is not a suitable replacement - but would indeed enhance the system. Rod

Gypcrete could be poured on one of their acoustic mats also. Real love / hate relationship. It has desired mass but it's very conductive.

rod gervais wrote:

britune wrote:

I was going to build above my garage. Rod's book warns against it.

OK, let's see if we can gt this right......... I never EVER said - (in my book or elsewhere) to not build above garages (or in attics - or on 1st / 2nd floors, etc., etc.).

Here are a few quotes from Rod's book about building on an elevated wooden deck... "Reality is that you can't get isolation from a simple elevated wood deck. Period." In talking about dealing with resonant frequency problems with a wooden deck... "... it 's a matter of being so close to impossible that it isn't worth the effort or expense." After describing a project where someone built on an elevated wooden deck, and didn't listen to Rod about possibly using a sand filled deck... "Save your money. It's too precious to throw away." Rod then talks about using sand or lightweight concrete to obtain better isolation and talks about getting a structural engineer to see if your structure can handle the load. If these are not "warnings", then I don't know what is. I never said that Rod's book said "NOT" to build on an elevated wooden deck. I said it "warns", and it does. Maybe I should not have said warns "against". But there is nothing in the book advocating building on an elevated wooden deck, but many warnings before you do. Reading that section of Rod's book sure made me stop and consider not building above the garage. I am a big fan of Rod's book and this board. I certainly don't think I misrepresented the book. I was just warning jpricekc of what he should consider. I never told him NOT build above the garage.