Live room in the garage. Design phase.

Hello everyone! I've been designing my live room couple of last days and I guess I'm almost ready. I'm not going to start construction yet because the winter is coming here... I'll have to wait next spring. So I have plenty of time to do changes and draw little details of my plans for example air conditioning and electrics etc. First of all I'm beefing the stud cavities with 2x13mm drywall on outside walls of the garage and of course ceiling too. I come to inside out walls and ceiling construction. Inside dimensions are 2,5m, lenght 5,2m and height 2,6m. The wall frames I'm making 2x3" studs with 2x13mm drywall on outside face of the frames except back and front wall frames I'm making 2x4" studs. Ceiling frames are 2x4" with 2x13mm drywall on top of it. First drawing shows my framing. Slot resonator walls too. Next drawing shows acoustic treatment places. Blue are cloth front insulation and brown are slot resonators. Final drawing shows the ceiling framing. And here is the sketchup file if anyone wants to look it closely :D -janne

I don't see any blue walls?

You're right Lilith :D My blue walls are more like dark lilac than blue. I'm bit of colour blind so I don't recognize colour shades wery well... -janne

Hello! My floor plan is (I "stole" that from Rod's post) to put 50mm 703 rockwool on top of the concrete slab and then 2x 12,5mm plywood over the rockwool. Flooring material is going to be laminate or wood parquet. Question: is this right location for a vapour barrier? (see picture). I know it should be inside face of the wall (location Finland), but I won't be able to put it in front of my new inside-out wall because of acoustic reasons. -janne

Hello! I've been planning air conditioning and heating systems. I want to keep both as simple as possible. I've got couple of options. Simple and very cheap option is to buy couple of heat radiators and install them to the wall. More expensive option is to use mini split system. In summertime it can be used for cooling purpose also. Air condition plan is very simple also. I'm gonna build couple of silencers with plywood and I've got 2 air fans which I'm gonna install to the silencers to keep air flowing. I put whole complex in the attic and I'm using round flexible aluminium ducts to blow fresh outside air in and "used" air to the outside. Here's very rough sketch :D and silencer:air fan and flexible aluminium duct:next mission is wiring (electrical and audio) plans and accurate wall and ceiling construction drawings. -janne

Hello again! I draw more detailed wall, floor and ceiling pictures. I named the walls A to D for clearance. Garage is attached to the house so behind the wall A is bathroom. As you can see I ended up to build room within a room construction and all the inside walls are inside-out. Wall A details: behind this wall is bathroom, so inside face is plywood, vapour barrier and ceramic tiles. Garage side I'm going to beef up the wall cavities only 1 layer of drywall because there is allready mass enough (plywood and ceramic tiles). Then new inside-out wall elements.Walls B and C details: Outside walls gets 2 layers of 12,5mm drywall beef up between wall cavities and inner wall is inside-out. Wall D details: This is doorway wall. I'm replacing garage doors with normal outdoor and those wall cavities gets 2 layers of drywall. I'm leaving 270mm air space and then new inside-out wall with indoor. -janne

Just a small thing. I wouldn't use 100mm insulation in you inner 2x4. It will bludge and make the cloth look funny. See if you can get 70mm

lilith_envy wrote:

Just a small thing. I wouldn't use 100mm insulation in you inner 2x4. It will bludge and make the cloth look funny. See if you can get 70mm

Thanks Lilith, that's a good advice :D I found 3 rockwool manufacturer here in Finland. Rockwool Finland, Paroc and Isover. They all sell 80mm thick boards with density of 80kg/m3. I think that should be fine. I draw couple of pictures how I intend to build my floor and ceiling. As I said in my earlier post I get the floating type of floor idea from Rod's post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13845 I hope I understand it correctly. :D And here's my inside-out ceiling plan:I was going to use nails or screws to attach those ceiling elements to the side of the walls top plates. I don't know yet is this actually right way to do it? One thing where I didn't find the answer yet is vapour barrier location these type of constructions? -janne

janne - the new inside out wall should sit on the flooring which sits in the stud on side. Also can you get tongue and grooved 19mm flooring ?

John Sayers wrote:

janne - the new inside out wall should sit on the flooring which sits in the stud on side.

Hello John! Thanks for your input :D Do you mean floating floor construction like on your recording manual?

John Sayers wrote:

Also can you get tongue and grooved 19mm flooring ?

I found flooring board which is 22mm and also tongue and grooved. -janne

Hello John! Thanks for your input :D Do you mean floating floor construction like on your recording manual?

ah Yes :thu:

I must clear my floor construction plans a little. I've studied that John's floating floor construction, and firstly I was going to construct my floor that way. But I'm not looking for extra sound isolation, only isolation from the cold :D We have very cold winters here in Finland and if I only put flooring on top of the concrete slab the floor gets really cold. What I need is insulation between concrete slab and my flooring. If I build my floor as in my drawing -floor and wall details.jpg that might work. It's little easier and cheper to build than John's floating floor. -janne

but my design has insulation 50mm of it.

John Sayers wrote:

but my design has insulation 50mm of it.

I was planning to use same amount of insulation at least, everything else is still open except that I'm going to build that liveroom in my garage and I build it inside-out way :D -janne

I'm building long walls A and C at two elements. I'm thinking if wall A fully cloth covered insulation my liveroom could be too dead sounding so I desingned two small resonators/diffusors in those elements. Wall element A looks like this: On the wall C I'm building two angled slot resonators and maybe some hangers behind the resonators for bass trapping. Wall B includes one big angled slot resonator and also hangers behind that. Wall D is doorway wall and have corner bass trap in right corner. Maybe superchunk or like Johns desing in small studio in 3d. And wall element C looks like this: Wall element B looks like this: And finally Wall D element:

I'm planning to build my ceiling at four elements so it's easier to lift them in place. And ceiling element looks like this: Final picture shows how I'm going to instal those ceiling elements. Fellow builders and construction gurus I appreciate your comments and input about my plans :D I can't wait the spring coming so I can start building that liveroom :twisted: Right now here in Finland we have -20 degrees celcius :cen: -janne

Wall element A looks like this:

I'm not sure that is a good idea! That wall has to support a lot of weight, so modifying the structure like that probably won't be smart. It will also change the isolation of your room, since you'll be supporting your drywall in places that it isn't supposed to be supported, and has never been tested in a lab. You'll be on your own as to what that does to the isolation characteristics of the wall. Brien can probably tell you for sure, but to me it looks like you are compromising the structural integrity of that wall. Maybe I'm wrong... Personally, I'd hang your treatment ON the wall, not embed it IN the wall.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Wall element A looks like this:

I'm not sure that is a good idea! That wall has to support a lot of weight, so modifying the structure like that probably won't be smart. It will also change the isolation of your room, since you'll be supporting your drywall in places that it isn't supposed to be supported, and has never been tested in a lab. You'll be on your own as to what that does to the isolation characteristics of the wall. Brien can probably tell you for sure, but to me it looks like you are compromising the structural integrity of that wall. Maybe I'm wrong... Personally, I'd hang your treatment ON the wall, not embed it IN the wall.

Thanks for your input Stuart :) maybe you're right. I'm not convinced either that wall construction, besides that sort of a resonator is impossible to build that way :D Maybe I'll build that wall element A in regular way and if that liveroom is sounding too dead I'll put some treatment ON the wall as you said. (diffusors, paintings, mirrors, or something else with hard surface). -janne

'Couple things Janne, 2"X4", visually graded #2 lumber(Southern Pine assumed) can span 9"-10" using a 24" layout but is only given a 5 PSF dead load. Since the framing member is part of the equation when trying to establish deadload abilities of lumber, you hit the framing member limit ability(with safety in mind) early. Before I built something in wall I would get the room closer to being finished. It is mentioned that diffusion with a short path, as your 8.85 feet path, is not enough room for the sound to scatter and be beneficial as you might want it to be.

xSpace wrote:

'Couple things Janne, 2"X4", visually graded #2 lumber(Southern Pine assumed) can span 9"-10" using a 24" layout but is only given a 5 PSF dead load. Since the framing member is part of the equation when trying to establish deadload abilities of lumber, you hit the framing member limit ability(with safety in mind) early.

Thanks a lot xSpace I'll change my ceiling lumber size from 2"x4" to 2"x6". That would give over 10ft maximum span with more secure limits, if I read that span calculator correctly.

xSpace wrote:

Before I built something in wall I would get the room closer to being finished. It is mentioned that diffusion with a short path, as your 8.85 feet path, is not enough room for the sound to scatter and be beneficial as you might want it to be.

I know that diffusion is worth of nothing in so small room but I meant more like installing some hard surfaces over cloth front insulation to bringing more life into that room :D -janne

Soundman2020 wrote:

I'm not sure that is a good idea! That wall has to support a lot of weight, so modifying the structure like that probably won't be smart.

Correct Stuart. Installing a header and then framing within the rough opening of the header area would allow for better weight distribution. Still, like you mentioned, isolation weakens in those particular places that anything is embedded into the wall if it isn't comparable to the wall in general.

Hello I've been searching the answer of one major question in my garage desing. The problem was where to put a vapour barrier in double frame construction like mine. I did show my plans to the building department and one of the drywall manufactures building engineer, after few long phone cals and couple of emails later everything is clear. In my area the vapour barrier belongs definitly INSIDE face of the wall. That answer leads to another problem and question. Problem: I'm building that liveroom as inside-out way as for sure you all know :lol: and I think installing a non breathable plastic face in front of rockwool is bad thing. Question:: Is this thin plastic layer installed in front of the inside-out wall ruining whole wall construction and my acoustics?? or affecting only higher frequency range?? -janne edit: or Am I answering to my self already :?: :shock:

All right folks! My original plan was to build whole liveroom as inside out, but after couple of conversations of building officials construction engineer I had to change my plans. He said that those walls which are facing on outside walls I need a vapour barrier on inside face of the wall otherwise there will be condense problems. But I've got one wall which is facing to my house. Other side that wall is bathroom so there is already a vapour barrier and that wall is like "warm" wall so condense broblems won't happen. I can build that wall as inside out. I draw a picture which shows the wall situation now. Wall A is the wall which is next to the my house. That wall will be my inside out absorbtive wall. Walls B to D are facing to outside walls so I must build them as regular way. There must be a vapour barrier underneath the drywall layers. Then ceiling. I need a vapour barrier there also, but I can install it underneath the outer ceiling, so I can build my inner ceiling inside out. There are some rule which says that I can put the vapour barrier in the middle of insulation layers. But Insulation layer which is facing cold outside must be at least twice as thick as a layer which is facing inside. In my plan I got 250mm then vapour barrier and then 100mm in inside out ceiling elements. Then acoustic treatments. Here's one option. Actually I'm gonna build first my room and then build treatments if needed. I think in that room I need lots of :D Couple of slat resonators with hangers behind them could be fine. Who knows... -janne

"There are some rule which says that I can put the vapour barrier in the middle of insulation layers." It might be a rule of man. Think about how you could actually do that, what would it take? If warm air is moving towards the colder air, which is a law of Nature, then this barrier that is correctly placed >behind< the interior hard boundary stops vapor at that point. In some situations, when humidity is allowed to run hot and cold, like in a vacant house, you will find that the sheetrock or whatever is the interior hard boundary was been compromised (allowed to get wet) from this accumulation of vapor that builds up and becomes moisture. Now install that same barrier in between insulation, have the same law of Nature and what happens? The vapor will accumulate on the side of the insulation that is closest to the warm side of the building and wet that insulation. Given the right climate, this insulation will hold that moisture, and have more added to it and eventually develop a mold problem. This happens inside of a wall as you described and you will not know it for a long time. It would have to have some or be a proven method, rather, as a track record. Because these things are different from one climate to another but the procedure is pretty much the same. "But Insulation layer which is facing cold outside must be at least twice as thick as a layer which is facing inside." I would need some hard data on that. This suggests that every place in Finland has a room in a room type construction...and we know that is not a certainty. "Then ceiling. I need a vapour barrier there also," I have seen only a few people do this, ever. I have never encounter this in my line of work. I will add again, that you live in a different region of the world, but I still have issue with this vapor barrier on the ceiling for the same reasons mentioned above. The vapor will hit the hard boundary and then, in your configuration, gravity will take over. Which means it goes right back into the interior boundary. Now, consider, this is a gradual process so it does not happen in a season. So if the house has ability to extract the moisture, the HVAC is doing it's job, problems may not(I have my doubts) exist, maybe ever. Maybe not.

xSpace wrote:

"I would need some hard data on that. This suggests that every place in Finland has a room in a room type construction...and we know that is not a certainty.

Here's an example what I was meant. That picture and vapour barrier installing instruction found in rockwool Finland's web page. Simple reason for installing a vapour barrier inside the insulation is that you can hide for example your electrical pipes inside the insulation. Here's the web page I was taking about. I know it is in finish but it says pretty much the same I wrote in here. http://www.rockwool.fi/erist%C3%A4misen ... B6yrysulku

xSpace wrote:

""Then ceiling. I need a vapour barrier there also," I have seen only a few people do this, ever. I have never encounter this in my line of work. I will add again, that you live in a different region of the world, but I still have issue with this vapor barrier on the ceiling for the same reasons mentioned above. The vapor will hit the hard boundary and then, in your configuration, gravity will take over. Which means it goes right back into the interior boundary. Now, consider, this is a gradual process so it does not happen in a season. So if the house has ability to extract the moisture, the HVAC is doing it's job, problems may not(I have my doubts) exist, maybe ever. Maybe not.

That's strange. In Finland vapour barrier should be installed to the outside walls and also to the ceiling. We have saying that we live in plastic bags... :shock: -janne