Hello all,
I’ve been reading this forum about a year now and I think I’m ready to show you my plans to build nice sounding live room in my garage and ask few (or maybe lots of more) questions. :D
Ok. Here is some details:
Location: Finland
My goal: is to build live room in my garage, where I can record anything from drums to vocals.
How loud I am: Isolation is not my major concern. I would not record drums every day, and my neighbors don’t live very near to me. Only decent isolation.
Budget: Very flexible, say under 10 000€.
Info: My garage is 5,7m (18,7 ft) long, 2,7m (8,85 ft) wide and 2,5m (8,2 ft) height (inside dimensions) and it is attached to the rest of the house. In the other side of one longer wall is bathroom.
Broblems that comes to my mind: I won’t be able to build room within the room construction because of its narrowness. Maybe inside out walls?.
Starting point:My plans so far: Remove the garage door, beef up the outer leaf 2x5/8" drywall, put RC and 2x5/8" drywall. See the picture:And maybe doing this: WALL B: insideout slot resonator wall, WALL C: corner bass traps, WALL A: some acoustic panels if needed, WALL D: cloth over insulation. See the picture:I would like to have your opinion of my plans. Critics, comments, proposals please :D
And last but not least. Thanks for all the moderators and members, I've learned a lot just reading this great forum 8)
-Janne
Live room in the garage. Design phase.
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13163.
Hi, looks like a great plan, good attention to detail.
Only thing I would change might be the design of the slat panels in "garageplan2.jpg". The slats are fine but you are adding an un-neccessary layer of sheetrock to the back of it. If you had the sheetrock installed to the wall, like everywhere else in the build, it may be an easier thing to do.
Just a few thoughts.
Good luck,
Brien
Hi, Thanks for the feedback. If I don't remove that installed sheetrock layer, then I won't be able to beef up my outer leaf, and I loose isolation too much. Am I right? -JanneOnly thing I would change might be the design of the slat panels in "garageplan2.jpg". The slats are fine but you are adding an un-neccessary layer of sheetrock to the back of it. If you had the sheetrock installed to the wall, like everywhere else in the build, it may be an easier thing to do.
Excuse me...I mistook the line running on the main picture as a sheetrock barrier. After looking again, you are correct.
Carry on ;)
Yeah, I understand :). That Cad drawing went so blur when I turned it to jpg. But after all, garageplan2 is way to go. Next I'm going to draw ceiling construction, but this weekend we have here in Finland mid summer feast and that takes couple of days to recovery it :shot: :D Hail hail to Finland :DExcuse me...I mistook the line running on the main picture as a sheetrock barrier. After looking again, you are correct.
Hello! It's been awhile... I've finally finished my ceiling plan. Few drawings and pictures include.
Starting point:
And here is the roof rafter:
And here is axonometry drawing from the roof rafters and the garage. For clearance I didn't draw all the rafters :)
And my plans are:
Axonometry drawing of my plans. Adding extra 2x5" at the perimeter and in the middle of the rafters:more to come...
Adding 5/8" veneer at the top of the braces:
Adding 5/8" drywall between the rafters at the bottom of the veneer by screws:
And some real fotos at my project. Before any damage :D
I opened the roof. Found lot's of beehives :shock:
And couple of more...
Your comments and critics are welcome :D
ps. I got my construction permit for this project :yahoo:
Hello all :D
Construction has started about a week ago. I don't know if this thread should be moved to the construction forum or should I make a new thread in there?? Anyway. Here's some fotos what I've done so far:
I added 2x5" blocks between the rafters and at the perimeter of the wall.
I've caulk all the gaps I found. Huge gap between the top plates :(
Next I added 5/8" plywood over the roof rafters. That is gonna be my first layer of mass.
Question: Should I caulk these seams?
I'm gonna add a layer of 5/8" drywall, or maybe two between the rafters. Then 4" more insulation and RC at the bottom of the roof rafters and 2x5/8" drywall attached to the RC.
-Janne
no, you don't have to
OK. Thanks Ro :)
Question 2: When beefing up ceiling/wall cavities is it better to use finishing nails than using screws?? and what is the difference?
Right now I'm learning to use that google sketchup program and post few acoustic treatment ideas soon. Also I'm planning how to build air conditioning system in my garage. Lot's of thinking...
-Janne
Screws will offer a better support IMO
Finishing nails since dont have a "head" its easy to remove something you already nailed, so that proves its not that secure
So, it don't have any mysterious isolating reason to use finishing nails. I think it's easier to use just screws.
Depends...
There's different techniques to add mass, let's say GB for instance, to the ceiling.
These different techniques depend on the current ceiling.
If you have an exterior roof which is your ceiling, you don't ever want to penetrate it from below. You might accidentally cut through the ceiling/roof and damage the roof itself resulting in leaks (water). In that case you have to use nails and insert them in the beams, not the ceiling, to support the mass. Use clads/trims on the last layer of mass to finish it off (and make it carry the whole weight)
Second; your current ceiling has to be strong enough to carry the mass.
If your ceiling is strong and it's not a roof and you're sure you're not gonna damage it (damn long nails or screws penetrating to the upper part.. yay) you can screw the mass directly onto the ceiling.
Use backerrod and sealant to finish it.
That's a good point, but in my case it's not possible to penetrate exterior roof. I played with that skethcup program and draw couple of pictures to show what's my situation is. To me drawing is easier than speaking or writing, especially in english :D First: adding 5/8" plywood over the ceiling joists by screws. second: 2 layers GB between the joists screwed to the plywood. And of course mud and caulk before and after the second layer :D third: maybe it won't be necessarily to use support cleats to hold the drywall, because I will be using screws? and another angle:If you have an exterior roof which is your ceiling, you don't ever want to penetrate it from below. You might accidentally cut through the ceiling/roof and damage the roof itself resulting in leaks (water).
Great picture, explains a lot.
In this case you can screw it directly onto the ceilingboard. How thick is that board, what's the span between joists an how many layers and how thick are you gonna attach?
You need enough support to carry the mass. I'd definitely add the cleats to 1) carry the mass (make it stronger) and 2) close up the sealed boundaries. It'll make a better finish.
Thanks Ro :D
Ceiling board is 15mm thick plywood, and span between joists is 6m with 600mm OC. I thought, I would attach 2 layers of 12-15mm drywall between the joists, then RC under the joists with 2 layers of 15mm drywall. I'm not gonna build fully room with in a room construction. Maybe couple of inside out slot resonator walls. I'm gonna use those cleats both of the reasons you mentioned.
Hello all
I drawed couple of floor plans on that sketchup program. I was interested in live end, dead end model that John recomended someone on some old thread.
North wall: inside out wall. Half slot resonator wall angled 6 degrees, and half cloth front insulation wall.
West wall: cloth front inside out wall with 2 corner bass traps.
East wall: inside out slot resonator wall.
South wall: GB wall with removable acoustic treatment panels.
Same design, but East wall angled 12 degrees.
And couple of more designs but dead end turned to the door side.
Am I on the right track? :shock:
-Janne
Hello again!
I've got two more floorplans to show. If you have some thoughts, proposals or anything let me know. Any feedback is important to me :)
Floorplan 5:
North wall: inside out slot resonator wall.
South wall: RC mounted GB.
East wall: cloth front Inside out wall with 2 corner bass traps.
West wall: 2 corner bass traps and in the middle slot resonator.
Floorplan 6:
North wall: inside out slot resonator wall.
South wall: RC mounted GB.
East wall: cloth front Inside out wall with 2 corner bass traps.
West wall: angled slot resonator wall (inside out).
Do I have too much slot resonator walls in my plans, and do I need more absobtive walls (cloth front insulation)? I don't want dead sounding live room, and yes I know my space is limited but little liveness would be good :D
-Janne
Hey Ho!
I was inspired in John's container studio design, and now I'm planning to build fully inside-out construction. Maybe even the ceiling too. It takes about 7cm in my precious space in width , but it leaves me more options thinking of acoustic treatments. Here is a little sketch I've just made.
-Janne
All right folks!
I've got two options to build this liveroom now, and I don't know yet which one I will choose. First one is more easier to build, but the second one is better with acoustics, I'll think? In the isolation point of view there's no difference, I'll guess.
Here is the first plan:
-Beef up the outer leaf with 2x1/2" drywall,
-4" insulation,
-mounting RC channels to the studs,
-2x1/2" drywall screwed to the RC
-and final, installing acoustic treatments.
Here's the second plan:
-Beef up the outer leaf with 2x1/2" drywall,
-4" insulation,
-inside-out walls with acoustic treatments.
As I said, first one is easier to build but.... :shock:
I'm loosing about 60mm in my precious space in width if I build this with inside-out walls, but if I get better acoustics and isolation then I'm ready to take that chalenge and build this inside-out way :?: :D and yes of course it's more interesting to build :D. I have all coming winter to think about this and I'm guessing these are not the last plans I'll be making. :lol:
-janne
Personally, I'd go with "Plan B", your second option with the double frames. It will give you better isolation. But there is a problem on your plan: The image labeled "garage inside-out walls.jpg" shows the inner-leaf wall on the left, with the door in it, being mechanically connected to the existing outer-leaf walls. You'll need to separate that, so that no part of the inner leaf touches any part of the outer leaf.
Acutally, you aren't losing anything! In fact, you are GAINING space with an inside-out wall, which is its main purpose. You use the stud space for acoustic treatment. With your "Plan A"m, you'd still need to add acoustic treatment in the room, and you'd have to hang it on the finished inner-leaf walls, which takes up a lot of depth. With an inside-out wall, the acoustic treatment goes between the studs, saving you space. In fact, if you take a close look you'll find that your room with "Plan B" is slightly larger all around, acoustically speaking, since you don't have the added thickness of the RC. So your inner-leaf drywall is already a bit further out, all around. You gain the thickness of the RC, plus the depth of the studs. Now, your "Plan B" shows your studs as 2x3's, but if you plan to put a ceiling across that room :shock: then I think they should probably be 2x4s. xSpace can give you good advice here, but it seems to me that you'd need 2x4s to support the new inner ceiling structure, not 2x3s. - Stuart -I'm loosing about 60mm in my precious space in width if I build this with inside-out walls,
Thanks for the advices Stuart :D
You're absolutely right about that problem which is shown in the picture "garage inside-out walls.jpg". I'll need to fix that drawing and separate that wall to the existing structure.Personally, I'd go with "Plan B", your second option with the double frames. It will give you better isolation. But there is a problem on your plan: The image labeled "garage inside-out walls.jpg" shows the inner-leaf wall on the left, with the door in it, being mechanically connected to the existing outer-leaf walls. You'll need to separate that, so that no part of the inner leaf touches any part of the outer leaf.
You're right about that too :oops: I'm getting better isolation, better acoustics, and even gaining my space, so why not build this inside-out no matter how difficult it is :DAcutally, you aren't losing anything! In fact, you are GAINING space with an inside-out wall, which is its main purpose. You use the stud space for acoustic treatment.
Yeah I'm planning to put the ceiling too :D That's my next mission to draw. Do you think that 2x3s won't carry that inside ceiling stucture? If so, I'd better be using 2x4s?? -janneNow, your "Plan B" shows your studs as 2x3's, but if you plan to put a ceiling across that room :shock: then I think they should probably be 2x4s. xSpace can give you good advice here, but it seems to me that you'd need 2x4s to support the new inner ceiling structure, not 2x3s.
Don't trust my guesses! Get a structural engineer to tell you what you need. I'm not one. The reason for my comment is just to point out potential issues that you should be aware of, not really to tell you the dimensions that you should use. You'll be hanging a LOT of mass from those joists (two layers of 16mm drywall is about 12 kg/m2), so you need to have the structure in place to do that safely. Even 2x4's might not cut it, depending on the span, loads, deflection, and type of wood: You might need 2x6s, or even more. You could look at span tables for the types of wood that you plan to use, and work it out from there, but your best bet is to get a structural engineer to look at what you plan to do, and tell you what type of structure you need to support it. It would be pretty sad if you built a great room that sounds fantastic and has brilliant isolation, then have a few hundred kilograms of ceiling all come down on your head one day! :) - Stuart -Do you think that 2x3s won't carry that inside ceiling stucture? If so, I'd better be using 2x4s??
Yeah! that would be a nightmare :( Don't want this to happen :ahh: I played a little on that span calculator and I think (not sure) I'll be safe using 2x4" on my ceiling joists with 400mm oc. Span is only 2,7m. I'm putting 2 layers 12mm GB on top of that structure instead of 2x15mm. I'm gonna build my inside-out walls with 2x3" studs with 400mm oc. Maybe those should also be 2x4"? Anyway, if I'm not sure, and don't find the answer on this forum I'll be showing my plans to the structural engineer. I read Gregs interesting thread which I found in the construction forum (one of the stickies) and his live room is almost the same size as mine. He ended up using 2x4" on the ceiling joists. By the way that's very informative thread so far. Thanks to Stuart and Greg :D I made a little sketch of my plans if I'm not clear enough in my writing... :D -janneIt would be pretty sad if you built a great room that sounds fantastic and has brilliant isolation, then have a few hundred kilograms of ceiling all come down on your head one day! :)