hold my hand for my Window install please!

hey all, i've studied both rods book and steves plan (in the reference), and it's just not sinking in! (yeah, i have a thick head, thats all i know!) Rod's book recommends neoprene setting blocks, glazing tape and a butyl caulking. None of which I can find locally, however, my friend builder said i could just use some rubberized plastic feet instead of the neoprene, and "normal" window caulking instead of the butyl, and the building supply store has glazing putty but no tape... so I'm trying to make do with what I have availalbe and then I'm also getting confused on the process. i'm second guesing my choice of products for doing my window install. I have these: Caulking: GE Silicon (brown) http://www.geadvancedmaterials.com/geam ... ddoor.html Rubber seal: (this one should be OK, since I saw it said EPDM on the website!!!) FrostKing Tripple Seal http://www.frostking.com/windoorweather.php If you could kindly suggest specific products w/ a manufacturers/sales link that'd be great! or just say my product is OK to use! (btw a search in the neoprene bldg products will find lots of "pucks" but not setting blocks, and the caulking search finds lots of acoustic sealants, but not a specific window sealant...) at this point, you should be able to see that I've never framed a window (at least correctly :twisted: !) but there's a first for everything! :D 1.) Does the neoprene setting blocks go under, on top of, or interupt the EPDM seal? 2.) and they only go on the bottom edge of the window correct? 3.) The glazing tape, does that go on both sides and the edge of the window, so between the glass and the EPDM seal? or just the edges of the glass. (my un-educated guese is surface only, not edge!) 4.) If you use Glazing tape, does this mean you don't need to use an additional sealant or caulking? (if I still need to use the caulking, please humor me and tell me what the glazing tape is actually supposed to do!) so... here goes the sketch, coz everyone likes a sketch! :D thanks for the help! kevin for the context see: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight=

I have not read Rods book. I am sure he has given a very proper explanation, but short of knowing his instructions, I will give you my own. I am giving a disclaimer that my windows work fine... there may be a better way. 1st thing.. I dont know what glazing tape is for unless it is for masking the edges of the glass about 3/8ths inch back or so so when you caulk the excess comes off easier without leaving a mess. What I did. Make sure you build th opening where it is close but not physically tight on the glass where it is stressing on the pane. I put the rubber on the bottom for the heavy glass to seat itself and not have hard sharp edges (from the wood , etc) putting stress in a small location. Glass will break easy from end grain pressures in a small location. The rubber is to take the stress of the weight and distribute it over the entire edge of the window. If the seal / support is continuous it works a little better so that you dont have to get caulk / sealant in and around the little boots... but hey whatever you need to do. I actuall put the silcone sealnt down first against the inner stops, set the window in put sealnt down to the fron edge of the window, and then installed the precut - sized - drilled front trim in. It was loose on the window before the sealant. The sealant cradles the window until it dries. Please dont put pressure on the glass. Hope that helps some. Tom

tom, thanks man. i was thinking of doing exactly what you did, put the rubber seal down, run a bead of caulk on the back stop, set the glass and the caulk the front and set the front stops. at no point will the wood actually touch the glass, there will either be the rubber seal or the caulking... currently there is 1/8th clearance on all sides of the glass, but i can enlarge that (now) if I need too... i just didn't want to make it too big to just fill back w/ caulking... kevin... btw... ive been reading your build as you go through.. nice work!

tom, thanks man. i was thinking of doing exactly what you did, put the rubber seal down, run a bead of caulk on the back stop, set the glass and the caulk the front and set the front stops. at no point will the wood actually touch the glass, there will either be the rubber seal or the caulking... currently there is 1/8th clearance on all sides of the glass, but i can enlarge that (now) if I need too... i just didn't want to make it too big to just fill back w/ caulking... kevin... btw... ive been reading your build as you go through.. nice work!

Kevin, You are welcome. An 1/8th inch is fine. That is what I started off with, but for some inexplicable reason the glass I got was not square by a long shot. I ended up having to plane the opening a bunch and caulk the heck out of it. Thanks for the encourament. I got to use the studio for the first time last night for band practice.It er.... was interesting... but I have some serious low end build up to deal with. I still have not installed my 2 superchunk corner absorbers, hopefully things will smooth out. It's funny.. In the old studio, the walls leaked like a sieve, but the sound inside the studio (as long as it was quiet outside) was excellent.. maybe a little on the dry controlled side. But when you put up airtight heavy mass walls.... all that sound stays right there with you and you HAVE to do something with it. It is like trying to grab a freight train and stop it at full speed. It is SO FREAKING LOUD IN THERE NOW... IT IS LIKE EVERY TIME YOU TOUCH SOMETHING IT MAKES SOMETHING MOVE IN THE OTHER ROOM... No t much of an exaggeration actually. I can hit a bongo drum and 30 feet away set the guitars to ringing as well as the drum set, light fixtures etc. Anyway.. off to have more fun.

OK - the reason I lay it out like I do is multi-purposed - 1st- caulk is not intended to be used as anything otherthan caulk - it's meant to be installed just as I explained in the book - with 2 sided adhesion only - otherwise it fails - to caulk a piece of casing and then jam it against piece of glass is nothing that anyone in the business of glass and glazing would ever do....... There are specifications (industry standards) that lay this all out - I don't just invent these things...... ON to your direct questions: Yes you can use the GE Silicone instead of the butyl........ No- the EPDM seals aren't what you want - nor are rubber shims (I.E. setting blocks) - BUT Here's a source for you that sells online - so you can buy what you need...... meaning that both the butyl caulk and setting blocks are available from them....... Here's the setting blocks (although you might have to call them to set this up) http://www.lamatek.com/catalogs/fenestr ... lock.shtml and here's the butyl tape- which you can just order the size you want....... http://www.lamatek.com/catalogs/fenestr ... hing.shtml First things first - you take the setting blocks and use them to shim the glass - (Yes it's only the bottom that has to be shimmed). These should be in 1/3 bearing locations for glass up to 8' - and 1/4 locations for glass over 8' in length........ and the idea is to vary the thickness of the shims to settle the glass centered in the frame. Then mark the exact location of the shims - remove the glass - install the butyl tape on the 4 inside stops - reset the shims and reinstall the glass.... centered left to right - press it hard against the butyl tape and install 2 temporary stops to support it at the sides towards the top- make certain it is pressed hard against the butyl tape. caulk the top with your silicone lapping about an inch down the sides..(the butyl will act as a backer rod) then install the butyl tape to the top piece of outside stop and install the outside stop - being careful to make certain it is firmly locking in the glass........ next caulk the bottom (lapping about an inch up the sides) and then install the bottom stop (after putting the glazing tape on it) and then finish caulking and add the tape to (and install) the the left and right stops. The use of butyl tape creates a 3 step air block that a bunch of caulk wrapping the glass and stops doesn (can't) do. This is how the pro's do it....... and I should know - I used to own a glass company in my youth........... installing storefront glazing systems and constructing/installing custom window assemblies in high end residential contemporary housing........ which (trust me) we never wanted to develope a leak in the rain......... The best water tight is air tight............ Have fun, Rod

thanks rod, i totally jumped the gun and put the window in last night... and it turned out to be a mess... not only did i break two screws putting in the threshold (should have used a larger bit for the pre-drill). I didn't leave enough room for both left and right seals... i figured each seal would compress, but that meant I had to actually get the window in on it first... which meant when i put the window in, it didn't fit, and moved the seal... and since i didn't dry fit the glass first (i normally do dry fit everything, why i didn't do it for this is beyond me)... it showed that the wood i'm using for my front stop is completely warped...argghh!!!! :evil: I'm not 100% yet, but I'm thinking i'm not only going to pull out what I did, but call a local glass company and have them put it in... since this seems to be a good bit beyond my skill level. maybe once I see them do it, and with rods instructions, I might attempt it in the future... but I think i've hit the limit on what I can do with this... I'll post updates to this in my build post if your so inclined! anyways... heres some pictures to show my ignorance... i don't know if i should be given credit or a dunce cap for trying. :cry: (the wood is naturally un-even and pitted which is fine with me, the flash of the camera just highlights that, so it looks weird... it looks great in real life... except for the silicone mess) thanks again for taking time to write a response guys. kevin

Kevin, Now THAT"S UGLY........ whew......... 1st off - we normally use nails for putting up stops and the such - we don't screw them..... makes for a much neater job - BUT - if you really want to use screws (on the room sides so you can just remove them if you ever need to change the glass) - then either get yourself a nice countersink set up so you can set the screw and countersink depth for pre-drilling - they're only a couple of bucks at home despot........ OR Just use gromets so you get a finished look without countersinking them......... For your inside starting stops - snap a line so you can adjust them to straight if you need to- and make sure that the outside (rom side) stop has a slight bevel to it (about a deree is good) which will pay of like triple aces when it comes to applying your casing aferwards. ANd what seals are you refering to - I only see caulk ooozing out???????? Rod

Hey Kevin, Hang in there man...You aren't the first and you WON'T be the last to make a mistake, not understand something, or have to re-do something. If you were to poll most people who have finished studios on here I'll BETCHA' they ALL have "MISTAKE" stories they could tell! It will ALL work out ok!! :wink:

rod gervais wrote:

next caulk the bottom (lapping about an inch up the sides) and then install the bottom stop (after putting the glazing tape on it) Rod

By the term "glazing tape" here, are you referring to Butyl tape? When you press the outside stop against the caulk, doesn't it ooze out all over the place?

and make sure that the outside (rom side) stop has a slight bevel to it (about a deree is good) which will pay of like triple aces when it comes to applying your casing aferwards.

Beveled how? And isn't there a way to find a locel dealer for butyl tape? WHy does everthing in building a studio have to be special order on the Internet? Is this it also? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RV-Motor ... enameZWD1V

eruss wrote:

By the term "glazing tape" here, are you referring to Butyl tape?

Yes

When you press the outside stop against the caulk, doesn't it ooze out all over the place?

There isn't any caulk to press against - that's the tape - the caulk is only between the window edge and the window frame - I'll post another drawing to make it more clear. Look at the window detail below.

and make sure that the outside (rom side) stop has a slight bevel to it (about a deree is good) which will pay of like triple aces when it comes to applying your casing aferwards. Beveled how?

Look at the bevel detail below.

And isn't there a way to find a locel dealer for butyl tape? WHy does everthing in building a studio have to be special order on the Internet?

You can get it locally if you want - you just aren't looking in the right places.......... Try going to a local glass company - one of the companies who install and repair storefront systems - do window repairs, the one's that you would buy your 3/4" glass from - they work with these material every day and should have them in stock.

Is this it also? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RV-Motor ... enameZWD1V

Well yes except you don't know the size - but if it's the right size it's an example of butyl tape you could use.

rod gervais wrote:

There isn't any caulk to press against - that's the tape - the caulk is only between the window edge and the window frame - I'll post another drawing to make it more clear.

Ok, but what about where the neoprene is? There would be no caulk in those spots right? And the neoprene must be the same width as the window right?

eruss wrote:

rod gervais wrote:

There isn't any caulk to press against - that's the tape - the caulk is only between the window edge and the window frame - I'll post another drawing to make it more clear.

Ok, but what about where the neoprene is? There would be no caulk in those spots right? And the neoprene must be the same width as the window right?

No - the shims are not the width of the window - they are the tickness of the window - about an inch long - and are placed in a 1/3 (or 1/4) spacing depending on window size - then when the window is set - caulk is placed between the window and frame in between each space created by the shims. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

No - the shims are not the width of the window - they are the tickness of the window - about an inch long - and are placed in a 1/3 (or 1/4) spacing depending on window size - then when the window is set - caulk is placed between the window and frame in between each space created by the shims. Rod

So the shims touch the back stop and front stop with no tape between the shims and the stops? Then there is no seal where the shims are? I think for me this will be difficult as my glass is only 1/16 thick. THis will not prvide a very thick bead of caulk. Actualy I don't think the glass is thick enough to create a seal at all. Is it? The tape at the top will push together and squeeze out the caulk right? I know that is wrong but he owner said we had to use it and I don't know if we can afford 3/8 or 1/2 inch glass. Also, how do you get the fabric wrapped rigid fiberglass to secure to the top for the filler between the inside of the windows? The bottom is easy, but the top? I have some auralex glue. Will that work?

Rod and eruss, thanks for the continued discussion. I think just now I understand the function of the glazing tape, and usage of caulking. The seal absent in my photo is where the caulking should be, on the edge of the glass, between the glass and wood frame (not between the face of the glass and the stops). and my caulking is where the glazing tape should be... my thinking was that since my wood stops were not 100% completely straight (they are warped by 1/8th", any difference in the measurements would be made up by tthe caulking... problem with working with this rough cut lumber... and never making a window before!) OK... i think I have it. as for the "now thats Ugly ".... thanks for your candor!... lol.. I knew it wasn't what I wanted, thats why I asked. the screws I used on the front stops exactly for that reason, if I decided to replace (in my case I was thinking if I needed thicker glass) or clean the glass, I would be able to unscrew the front stops and do so... I used brass screws so that It looked better than just a standard wood screw, and the back stops were put in with finishing nails (except the photo... shows the 1 screw I did use after the brass screw (that I was going to use) broke... (thats another mess)..., it's countersunk and I'll wood putty over it and the nails thats color matched to the wood/stain). eruss... i didn't even realize they made glass thinner than 1/8"... even at which it is NOT going to provide much isolation, My two panes of 1/4" laminate glass is NOT the recommended thickness either, I should be using 1/2" and 3/4" for my double wall construction. I got the glass from a friend in the industry at a cost, so I couldn't really turn it down, since I'm on a tight budget... and have made provisions to replace it in case the isolation is so bad that i have too... and again.. .this is not my permanant studio... thanks again, kevin

sandledfoot wrote:

eruss... i didn't even realize they made glass thinner than 1/8

Well maybe mine is 1/8th. I did not have my glasses on when I measured and the lines were fuzzy. It is too thin whatever it is. Post some pics of your window when you are done. I'll do the same.

Eruss, I would be hard pressed to even put up 1/8" ..that too is very thin. For one I would worry about it getting broken easily. One hit with a guitar and it might break, someone gets hurt and .... I would personally think 1/4" would be a minimum But I am sure Rod is right behind me writing something :wink: Tom

TomVan wrote:

Eruss, I would be hard pressed to even put up 1/8" ..that too is very thin. For one I would worry about it getting broken easily. One hit with a guitar and it might break, someone gets hurt and .... I would personally think 1/4" would be a minimum But I am sure Rod is right behind me writing something :wink: Tom

Well I have some questions about that but Rod seems to have dissapeared from this post. Maybe I'll start a new one.

Well, For one thing, the mass of glass is about three times that of drywall. So if you are trying to match the sound proofing ( how little sound transfers through) of your glass with that of your wall build, 1/8 glass will give you the same sound proofing of one layer of 3/8 drywall... not much by any standard. If all you are doing is creating a vocal booth where you are just trying to keep computer fan noise out of the booth, that would work.. That is about it though. You are wasting money if you spend the time and effort to have 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall (1 & 1/4ths ) and then only match it with anything less than about 3/8ths glass (equivelant to about 1 & 1/8th drywall). Otherwise it is like building a room but leaving the door wide open when you play.

tmix wrote:

Well, For one thing, the mass of glass is about three times that of drywall. So if you are trying to match the sound proofing ( how little sound transfers through) of your glass with that of your wall build, 1/8 glass will give you the same sound proofing of one layer of 3/8 drywall... not much by any standard. If all you are doing is creating a vocal booth where you are just trying to keep computer fan noise out of the booth, that would work.. That is about it though. You are wasting money if you spend the time and effort to have 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall (1 & 1/4ths ) and then only match it with anything less than about 3/8ths glass (equivelant to about 1 & 1/8th drywall). Otherwise it is like building a room but leaving the door wide open when you play.

Like I said, I have some questions but Rod has gone. I inquired about glass yesterday. The price was not as high as I thought, BUT, the man in the glass store says things contradictory to what Rod says. Rod talks about laminent glass. The man in the store says there is no such thing. There is laminent and there is glass, NOT laminent glass. I can get 1/2 inch "laminent" for 25 psf. BUT, that is for what the man in the store called "laminent". I got a feeling this is not the same thing as Rod talks about in his book. I also fear that when and if I ever find out EXACTLY what I need it will be 10 times the price. Which puts me back at suare one. If that happens then I might as well record with the door open as you put it. It will not be the first time I've had to do that. At least I will be isolated from the outside. So, once again, the pros here use terms that the people in the real world don't understand. This confuses amatures like me when we go shopping for materials. We then have to delay our prodject and come back here to bug the pros for advice of which we feel greatfull for frustrated at an guilty about all at the same time. :(

See http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8531#28531 Try talking to a different "man" in a different "store." Know why you need what you need. It raises confidence when defending it... And, yes, we often have to defend it. My building department's chief plan reviewer tried to talk me into a multi-leaf wall system using hat channel BETWEEN layers of drywall. His job was to advise me about code and I had to be delicate in my defenses so that I could get the support I needed while rejecting the bogus advice he wanted to give me at the same time. --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

See http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8531#28531 Try talking to a different "man" in a different "store." Know why you need what you need. It raises confidence when defending it... And, yes, we often have to defend it. My building department's chief plan reviewer tried to talk me into a multi-leaf wall system using hat channel BETWEEN layers of drywall. His job was to advise me about code and I had to be delicate in my defenses so that I could get the support I needed while rejecting the bogus advice he wanted to give me at the same time. --Keith :mrgreen:

I agree but all the people I talked to at the glass stores basically said the same thing. Laminent is laminant and glass is glass. They said they can get 1/2 inch laminant which is two 1/4 laminant put together. But I don't know if the laminant they speak of is the same laminant glass that Rod talks about. And neither do the people in the glass store. So, do I get the 1/2 "laminant"?

eruss, It is a shame people cant be on the same page sometimes.... I dont know why they make such a distinction between laminate and glass. Basically there is solid glass which can be in the tempered state or the annealed (softer) state, they each have properties that are directed towards specific use. Then there is laminated or sometimes called "safety glass" which is thinner layers of glass that are "laminated" together with a layer of plastic / acrylic -whatever it is- that affords the glass some breakage protection from shattering in a million pieces, it comes out like a big limp wad. But to our use the layering of the differing densities of hard-limp - hard of the glass and plastic gives some added benefit in less sympathetic vibrations. Unless the glass guy has something different than that he is calling laminate, i say get the 1/2 inch! Tom

tmix wrote:

eruss, It is a shame people cant be on the same page sometimes.... I dont know why they make such a distinction between laminate and glass. Basically there is solid glass which can be in the tempered state or the annealed (softer) state, they each have properties that are directed towards specific use. Then there is laminated or sometimes called "safety glass" which is thinner layers of glass that are "laminated" together with a layer of plastic / acrylic -whatever it is- that affords the glass some breakage protection from shattering in a million pieces, it comes out like a big limp wad. But to our use the layering of the differing densities of hard-limp - hard of the glass and plastic gives some added benefit in less sympathetic vibrations. Unless the glass guy has something different than that he is calling laminate, i say get the 1/2 inch! Tom

Thanks. I'll see what I can do. I might end up building a hefty gobo of some kind to put in front of the glass in the live room for loud insrtuments. I don't need to see them anyway. THis glass was up before with the horable constuction. You could not hear someone singing. You could barely hear them yealing. You could hear bass real easy though. However, even if I had 5 inch thick glass it would not stop drums. There is going to be bleed through no matter what I do, so it is a matter of degree. There is a 7000 foot live room just 100 feet away in the other room. I intend on using that for drums and loud instruments anyway. This glass should be enough for most instuments and vocals. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to hide the gap between the walls seen though the window. That seems to be impossible. :cry:

eruss wrote:

I agree but all the people I talked to at the glass stores basically said the same thing. Laminent is laminant and glass is glass. They said they can get 1/2 inch laminant which is two 1/4 laminant put together. But I don't know if the laminant they speak of is the same laminant glass that Rod talks about. And neither do the people in the glass store. So, do I get the 1/2 "laminant"?

Russ, It nevder ceases to amaze me the people in the industry who are ignorant about the products they specialize in. 1st off - yes we are talking the same thing - lami is lami - it's 2 piece of glass laminated with a clear plasticized center. Now - I call it laminated glass because that is what the people who manufacture it call it.......... and they are the people who sell it to the glass companies you are talking to. So they're ordering glass and don't even know it's name...... For example in the UK: http://www.zytronic.co.uk/laminated_glass.htm and here in the States: https://grayglass.net/page/1055/ Lmai Glass (laminated glass) is lami glass - all day long......... Sincerely, Rod