Floating floor over basement concrete. (Artifact Recording)

Man, I just went back and looked and I've no idea how I missed your second drawing - not sure if it hadn't loaded and I breezed past it, or what. Had I seen that before, i'd have said NO WAY is this right. I hope you've not built that part yet. I've marked up the drawing I missed, pointing out that you already show two masses with one air space NOT counting the lower construction of a separate studio ceiling. I've explained this on one of the threads, forget which; from ANY area to any OTHER area you want to isolate, the sound should only encounter TWO mass leaves separated by ONE air space. Any other way is bad use of materials and will usually make things WORSE, not better. The Wall/ceiling framing layout I drew with the sway brackets is ALL you need for isolation, whether you use sway brackets or not, double studs or not, the rule is ONE air space, TWO masses. Doesn't matter if the rest is 6 inches away or 6 FEET, it will hurt more than it will help. Soon as I get back on with my laptop, I'll post a pic that shows just how much difference PLACEMENT of materials can make - would you believe 23 dB difference with exactly the same amount and type of materials just by WHERE they're placed, all in the same amount of total space? I need to know just how far you are in this project so we can assess damage control... Steve

I've placed RC across the floor joists. Was going to create one solid barrier across the ceiling, then build my room in a room so to speak. If I have to change/redo the work, gotta do it now. Fortunately, having to replace all my old galvanized water lines w/ new copper ones, has slowed me down on studio construction. I opted to buy copper pipes, instead of buying drywall to hang. Should I remove the RC, frame the ceiling (where you crossed out), then RC and then drywall?

Here's the drawings I posted on this - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=45 in your case, the top two layers of wallboard in the drawing would be replaced by your upstairs flooring. the RC across the bottoms of your joists would equate to the RC shown above the lower horizontal wallboard layers in the drawing. separating the ceilings from room to room in the studio will cut down flanking seriously. The cutesy pic before those drawings actually illustrates the goal quite well, as having two centers of mass separated by air/insulation space, totally enveloping each area to be isolated. The angle brackets in the pic that locate the left wall frame are just 3" lengths of 1-1/2" x 3/16" wall thickness steel angle, drilled near each end for mounting the non-isolated half, and then 1/4" neoprene glued to the other face. If the wall has to support the ceiling joists, use full contact area for the neoprene and compress it by at least 25% - if the support isn't necessary, then leave a gap of at least 1/8" but put the neoprene there "just in case" the joist sags enough - that will avoid hard contact. My reasoning for this last, is that a spring (neoprene in this case) is NOT a spring if it's at either end of its travel, so if the neoprene is just touching between layers of wood it's almost as bad as hard contact without ANY padding whatever. With a retrofit such as yours, if you're doubtful of the mass of the upper floor and your joists are deep enough to support the extra weight, you can add a couple layers of wallboard between joists, held in place with cleats/caulk around the edges - then put insulation, then RC across joists, then layers of wallboard. Look closely at the drawing - note that any direction a sound wants to travel beetween areas, it has to go through Two mass centers and one air space. Also note that there is no hard contact between framing members, which will help reduce flanking. This is more important on the side of the wall that's solid mounted, as it would otherwise flank sound thru the framing, to the ceiling joists, and into the rest of the house. I'm gonna re-post that dwg here to save jumping back and forth... Steve

If you want more air space between walls and/or wood framing on both walls, you can just do a mirror image of the left, wood frame for the right side wall, including the extra joist blocking that locates the top of the wall (the part between the two vertical neoprene-padded angles) - just don't put RC on both frames. In fact, if you use separate frames you don't need RC on EITHER side of the wall, just on the ceiling. Hope that helps... Steve

I'd like to make this as confusing and complicated as possible...LOL :lol: OK, let me add this bit of info. The floating floors will be comprised of 2x4 wood. The walls will be comprised of 3 5/8" 20 guage steel studs. That's all walls. Inner, outer, double, which ever term it is today. The existing upstair floor joists are wood (2x8 if I remember correctly). I'd like to have angles in the new ceiling. Have to completely decouple from the existing joists for isolation (reason for drawing up the ceiling framing sitting on the wall framing) Those isolation hangers for one, hang down too low, and they're expensive from what I've found so far. Unless you know of any (preferrably under 5 bucks a piece) (most have been anywhere from $10-$60 each). I haven't had time to draw up the "Finalized" details of the room, w/ measurements, etc. I'm having to use Autocad (what a pain), and haven't had the time due to work. The only other possibility would be to have a flat ceiling except where the steel beam is. As far as the wall construction, let me throw another loop here...Between the control room and the studio. It will be double walled. The inside wall (control room side) will be sitting on the floating floor. The outer wall (studio side) will be mounted directly to the concrete. The same thing for the area in back of control room. The wall facing the "Laundry area & HVAC unit" will be mounted to the concrete. (some of it I've already done.) So do I need to remove my RC? Thanks, Aaron

"So do I need to remove my RC?" - Probably so, if you want non-level ceilings in your rooms (which would be a GOOD thing) One way to do what you want and still maintain good isolation between rooms, as well as to the upstairs, would be to rigidly hang your 20 gauge studs as ceiling joists for the individual rooms, making them at whatever angles you need - run your walls up PAST these ceiling frames, then mount your RC across the new, angled steel ceiling joists and hang the rock from the RC. Bring the RC within 1" of the walls, bring the rock layers within 1/4" of the walls, caulk like crazy, insulate over the sloped inner ceiling, and you will have your two leaf, one air space barrier. What you WON't have by doing that is the use of the variable depth cavity above your inner ceiling for bass trapping (at least, not much) but I'm not sure how to get around that one without flanking to your other rooms through a continuous ceiling. Gotta get some zzzzzzzzzz... Steve

Hello everyone...Glad to see the site back up. Hope everyone enjoyed their holidays. I've posted the latest design info of my room under my listing under the studio design forum. It's coming along...slowly. I don't have the smartdraw anymore since it expired, so it'll have to be all autocad stuff from here on out. Thanks again,

Whew, I've gotta question here. Anyone familiar w/ steel studs? I've started some of the minor construction around the studio. I've finished the floating floor section in the iso room near the bay window. (by the way Steve...The chicken wire was a nice theory, but bad idea. I attached it to the frame, and the vibrations were terrible. Sound transmission with that chicken wire was very resonate and made the whole floor vibrate...just FYI) Anyway, I've framed one wall so far on the floor. Used some caulk on the bottom to help w/ flanking noise, but my question here is, Corners! I've got a contractor friend that does metal framing, and his main way of framing is having the wall(drywall) go behind the adjoining wall (a slap stud as he calls it), tying the walls together. Especially since this room is free standing and not attached to any structure of the house. I'm assuming I can frame similar to a wood frame and add an additional stud for the drywall (RC actually) to attach to so the wall only touches the RC, not each other. And considering the metal studs are a whole other art form in construction (considering I've never worked with it before), is there any considerations I need to make for the doors/window frames, etc.? Also, considering these rooms are technically "free standing", what's the best way to brace these walls/ceiling, etc. Once again, limited on ceiling height. Oh yeah, almost forgot...front walls of control room. I've got the 60 degree angle for them, but what about vertical angles? Any recommendations on the degree of angle for the front walls? Thanks. Aaron

"his main way of framing is having the wall(drywall) go behind the adjoining wall (a slap stud as he calls it), tying the walls together. Especially since this room is free standing and not attached to any structure of the house. " - When you're trying to avoid flanking between rooms, each corner, each detail of each room needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis - so-called "normal" building techniques are mostly aimed at quick and cheap and simple. When you're doing soundproof construction, the prime consideration is changed to "perfect" - this means no hard contact where it will transmit sound to things that can re-radiate in other rooms, no continuous frames or panels between rooms, ALWAYS two, and only two, centers of mass between any two isolated areas, etc - If the "slap stud" method doesn't violate these new rules, fine. But it sounds to me like the room next to the one getting the "slap stud corner" treatment would also get that same piece of wallboard as part of its wall, and that would mean flanking noise getting through. If you're using RC on steel studs, I'm assuming you're using the heavier, so-called "structural" studs - otherwise, the lighter, 25 gauge studs flex enough that RC normally isn't necessary for nearly identical STC as can be had using RC. I seem to recall you were using the 20 gauge studs - for those, you WOULD need to use RC for isolation. I've noticed that I may be able to slightly modifiy an earlier drawing to show what you can do for wall intersections, but it may take a while to finish - I'll see what I can do with that. On the steel framing, I'm pretty short on hands-on at this time - I'm sure it's changed quite a bit from nearly 30 years ago when I built a basic "shop in a shop" in Hawaii for an audio/video service center that was part of a company expansion project - probably your best bet is your contractor friend and the USG manual, downloadable from the sticky above, on this forum - Steel framing info starts on page 76, Resilient Channel framing on p. 78-79, Steel framing for windows and doors starts on p. 93. Just be careful wherever they mention "fire rated" - some of their fire rated construction is NOT ideal for sound control. The extra air space caused by putting RC over wallboard followed by more wallboard, gives one too many air gaps for proper sound control. "front walls of control room. I've got the 60 degree angle for them, but what about vertical angles? Any recommendations on the degree of angle for the front walls?" - This is another "case by case" thing - it depends on things like the height of your console, ceiling height, distance from mix position to front wall, etc - What you can do is draw an elevation from either left or right of the mix position, then experiment with different front wall angles (combined with whatever ceiling angle you have) so that resultant reflections from speakers and/or the front (toward the front wall) of the console get deflected toward the rear of the room and NOT toward the mix position. This can take some trial and error. "what's the best way to brace these walls/ceiling, etc. Once again, limited on ceiling height." - All of the bracing I remember seeing did NOT take flanking into account - I'll try to work out some designs for that while I'm doing the wall framing one... Steve

Hey Steve, BTW what I ended up using instead of the chicken wire was some nylon pull line (conduit pull line). The bucket I bought has 6500 feet, and since I'm not pulling that much cable, I figured I could use it like twine or something. So I created a weave (over & under on the cross pieces) and stapled & tied it to the insides of the floor frame. Worked great from what I can tell. The insulation rested on top of it without any problems. It was just a lot of tedious work. I have a puzzling question here though...I'm trying to figure out the best way to layout this ceiling in the control room. About 2/3rds of the way back from the front wall (almost above the mix position, just a little bit behind), I have that steel beam running the entire span of the control room. It's posted on the drawings in the other forum. Maybe this one too...actually look at the pictures. So in this case, I'm trying to slope the ceiling at an angle from the front wall, and rising up going towards the back (middle). The way I'm designing this, is the ceiling will rest on the walls of the control room. What would be the recommended guage for the steel stud that I need to run the span of the control room (somewhere around 17 ft) that will run parallel w/ the steel beam, but not touch it (isolated on the walls). Then I can run the cross studs. I will be hanging RC and 2 layers of 5/8 drywall. Any suggestions here? Thanks, Aaron

Would it be possible to shorten your spans by running the steel joists perpendicular to that cross beam, and using it for a main support? If you'll be using RC on the inner layers, that will be all the isolation you need from inner leaf to outer... Steve

Hmmm...I probably could, but then I could also mount the studs hanging off of the joists above if I did that. I was trying to avoid connecting anything to the house itself. The main wood beam runs the entire length of the house (and the I beam is butted up against it, so the drum room on the other side would transmit the vibrations all the way down the wood beam, through the steel and into the control room.) I'm attempting to build the room in a room theory, completely decoupled from any of the house structure. The only part of the control room that should be touching anything at all, would be the 1/2" neoprene under the floating floor. So the entire floor, walls and ceiling are "floating". In other words, let's assume the house doesn't exist, and I need to build a room w/ ceiling and everything. The walls and ceiling are supporting by using structural studs for the weight. The house is basically just acting like a (second wall) with the second layer of mass (eg the floor above or the concrete block to the outside). I hope this makes sense??? That just about confused me. I haven't had a chance to make the vertical drawings yet of the walls. This may take some time. I'm still trying to layout the main floor plan. As you can see on my other posting, I've got the layout for the walls, and dimensions, etc. Just not the vertical angles, etc. Gotta run, I'll post more later... Thanks, Aaron

Aaron, you can build that way, but it will cost you a fair amount of headroom, due to span requirements for steel studs used as joists. If you already have structure you can hang things from, all you need is a course of RC somewhere to hang your inner wallboard layers on, and you're set. That way, also, you can (usually) get away with using lighter gauge studs for walls, and if doing double framed light gauge walls you won't even need RC (nor would it help) on the walls. All you need to avoid most flanking is to isolate the wallboard that's toward your space, whether wall or ceiling, with RC. This keeps the sound from getting through in either direction. For walls, which shouldn't have RC on both sides, the light steel studs are enough. You're already floating the floors, so flanking is under control there... Steve

I'll take all that into consideration when I start designing the ceiling. I'm just worried about sound from upstairs or when tracking drums/bass, etc that the sound would transmit through. Back to floors, I shot the room w/ a laser over the weekend. You wouldn't believe the amount of leveling I have to do. From the highest point to the lowest, it is a difference of 2 11/16" I have to raise the floor in one corner. In the drawings you made for the DIY leveling mounts w/ the 1/4" angle iron and bolts, do you think this will be enough for the amount I have to raise? What size (width) of bolt would be best. I'm also concerned w/ the bolt even w/ a washer, having too small of a foot print for the rubber. Will this be an issue? Also, I've been poking around the site. Haven't really seen too much on Doors. Do you have a link or maybe post some here on door jam design, kick plates, etc. Thanks again Steve, Aaron

Hey Aaron - Here's an update on the floor leveler - I'd go with thicker angle and 1/2" support bolts to compensate for the extra length required, since there will be a tendency for the angle and bolts both to bow from side loading. If you can find heavy 5/8" washers, they are about 1/8" thick and over 1.5" in diameter. That will give you the same footprint as 1" x 1.75", or a bit more. Double that for the pair, and you have 3.5 sq. in. per point. I've shown the welds for the washers in the new drawing. You would want to do solid welds all around after the washers are tacked in place. You can also contact cement the rubber to the washer to make a finished unit before installing. The other change is to use through-bolts for bolting the angles to the joists, see the text in the drawing. There are a few links to door stuff in the new links "stickey" I posted last night, thought I had more but they are eluding me momentarily. I'll update that list as I can... Steve

Thanks Steve. :D I was contemplating the idea of running bolts all the way through. I was beginning to have the idea that for the extra amount of leveling, a couple screws just were not going to get it. This looks like it should work well. So you recommend/suggest going w/ the 3/8" thickness and they should be 3" x 3" on the angles x what length, 3"? I don't know if the 3" will fit in some area's? Going to be tight. What if putting the 2 bolts on the same side on longer iron? Still bolting through the framing. Any thoughts or theory's? I'll check out the other stickys... Thanks.

Aaron, you're welcome - Keeping in mind that the drawing is not to scale, where you need the full 3" is in the vertical leg of the angle in order to keep bolt holes far enough apart for strength. If using 1/2" bolts for levelers, the horizontal portion of the angle only needs to be about 1=1/2" maximum. The rest is just overhang, and can be trimmed off. You may even be able to find unequal angle that's either 1.5" x 3" or somewhere near that; if so it would simplify fabrication. For the length of each piece of angle, I would not go less than 3", with holes centered 2" apart. Any closer and you run the risk of splitting or weakening the joist. If using 2x4's instead of 2x6's for joists, you are already getting close to structural weakening - under those conditions, I'd put the levelers a bit closer together than span tables allow, relocate the bracket holes so that the mounting holes leave at least 3/4" of wood between the hole and the edge of the joist (both edges) - If you have the room, longer pieces of angle will be stronger due to holes through the joists being further apart. After considering stresses involved, I wouldn't recommend using brackets on only one side of joists - there could be considerable twisting force due to uneven support. I've been thinking about an alternate design that wouldn't require more than a couple of small screws into the joist to stabilize - since the original design requires welding anyway, a little more shouldn't make much difference. The new design would only need to be maybe 2" along the joist, and stick out sideways about 1-1/4" past the joist on either side. I may get time to draw it up in a day or two... Steve

I wonder if there might be some type of a U type steel bracket or something that could slide around the edge of the 2x4? Then again, would still have to figure out a way to get a lip to put the bolts on the sides for adjusting. Do you know of anything or some steel in a U shape w/ ears? This would help in extra support on the 2x4's and keep them from splitting too. (Basically would look like a piece of hat channel only much larger). Any thoughts? Oh, BTW I don't think 3/8 would be what I want. I think the 1/4" or so would be fine. The W413 Steel I beam I installed for the structure of the house has a thickness of 3/8". I'm not even going to think about trying to cut that stuff. It'll take me 2 years just to cut the pieces. Thanks.

I realize these brackets aren't for everybody, but even a local fab shop should be able to beat the prices of the readymade stuff from the "big boys" - In my case, I'm spoiled by having stuff like link 1 And LInk 2 And Link 3 If you don't have access to power tools for cutting steel, several of my ideas aren't too practical. However, you might print out the pix and take them to a local fab shop and ask for a quote - sometimes they will surprise you in a GOOD way. I'm going to check at my steel supplier next time I'm there for any shapes like you said - meantime, here's what I've been working on, it's not finished yet but gives a few more options... Steve

Here's the other one, requires more welding but if you make the angles larger to allow the joist to sit down between the pads, you can make a real "low rider" out of it...

Steve, The second drawing is close to what I was describing. Maybe get some rectangular shaped steel, cut it in half, so you have to U shapes. Then weld a piece of steel on each side for the flange or ears for the bolts. Of course my problem right now is a welder, not to mention, never welded before. But I've also never built a studio before from the ground up, so it's all relative. Hmmm...I've got the brain thinking... This is going to be a complicated task!!! Not to mention cost. Gotta do, whatcha gotta do. :) Thanks again, Aaron

Here's another option - ever hear of "Tee Nuts"? All you'd need to do these is a drill, hammer and saw, except for the welding on of washers on the bolt heads where they meet the rubber. Even that may be unnecessary, still looking... Steve Screwed up though - the nails would need to be angled just the opposite of the way they're drawn, so they don't pull out with load :roll: ... Steve

Here's a way to eliminate having to weld, in conjuction with the last drawing - no idea of cost, when all they have on the page is a "request for quote" section, it's usually not a good sign - still, cool possibilities - http://www.swmanufacturing.com/sub/leveling_mounts.asp http://www.cfi1.com/leveling-mounts.html There's also a possibility you might be able to find something that's a replacement for washing machine feet locally. Tee nuts are available up to at least 3/8", it's worth looking into... Steve

What about some type of epoxy or construction adhesive to attach the washers to the head of the bolt? Those are some great links Steve. I'll bet they're a pretty penny though. Much cheaper if DIY. I'll have to inquire w/ them on prices. Thanks.

I called S&W for pricing. For part #G-06 & G-07: G-06 is a 3/8 x 16 Threading 2" w/ 2.4 inch base is $1.58 each. G-07 is a 3/8 x 16 Threading 4" w/ 2.4 inch base is $1.72 each. I walked around the framing I have built for the floor already, and with the thought of using angle iron, I came up w/ approx 195 6" plates to use. Most of this is due to the different panels of the floor framing, and it's in sections due to conduit runs. It will get all tied together, but that's alot of leveling. Now, w/ these type of mounts, I can probably scrap the angle iron. Using these levelers, and using those nuts that hammer into the wood (making sure to drill a deep enough hole for the bolt), the bolt will screw into the Tee-nut. This will also reduce the amount of leveling mounts I have to use, as well as cut down the price for not having to buy all the angle iron, and saws, and welding, etc. This sounds more pratical for multiple reasons. I didn't quite understand what you were drawing on the last drawing w/ the three 2x4's??? I need to get these pix developed so I can post them on what I've got done so far w/ the floor. Give me a couple days on that. That looks like a good solution though. Also, if I had to use the angle iron, it would take up space I really don't have in area's where the conduits are. I'm also attaching a pic of the T-Nut... Thanks again, :D Aaron