Soultree Studio Garage conversion build Queensland Australia

Hi there, Here is the start of my garage conversion. Trying to do the best i can on the budget ! Unfortunately only one photo came off the camera.. so I will post more tomorrow(its dark outside!) The builders have laid a 4" x 2" frame on the floor which is in a brick double garage(see photos soon) . They have laid a lot of 1/2 in neoprene under the joists and frame. This is more to see the inaccurate height of the floor more than anything else. (I have noted the correct way to ascertain the number of pucks required and will do that soon) My main question at this stage is regarding shims. I have read two opposing views on this forum..... "Concrete, shim, neoprene, 2x4 in that order " - Unless your shims are made of plastic or other waterproof material, I would put them above the neoprene.

The other one said do it the opposite way. The builder has given me plastic shims but wouldn't it be better for the joists to sit directly on the rubber not the shim ? Once i have sorted out the shim position, I was going to use 95mm insulation on the floor using the wiring method as recommended (not the chickenwire). So that would be 15mm puck, 90mm (4x2) frame with a 95mm insulation. That obviously leaves an airgap of 15mm (pretty small) on the bottom and a 5mm compression on top. Am i better using the 75mm insulation which would leave an airgap of 15mm underneath (the wire) and 15mm on top (90mm-75mm) ?? Due to budget constraints i am then intending putting one layer of 19mm Yellow tongue finish grade flooring on top of the frame. In the photo you will see (that when I turned my back !) the builder has placed several blocks of wood that have been dyna-bolted into the concrete floor. He says this is to prevent horizontal movement of the floor by vibration. Is he on the money here?? I presume the frame just sits on the pucks and they don't have to be glued onto the frame ?? I have ordered Rod's book and it is winging its way to Australia as we speak. So i'll most probably have more of an idea about the walls when the time comes. The builder is coming back in 34 hours, so any answers to my questions would be greatly appreciated. Cheers N Y M O

Hi there, Sorry..I now know what quote means ! heres John Plan attached. I am sorta working to that. :wink: Cheers N Y M O

looking outside rear/ right rear/ left plastic shim

Are you are aware that conventional wisdom on this forum has pretty much evolved to a consensus that floating floors over slab on grade are a waste of time, effort, and money, and may result in worse isolation than if you don't float at all? :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Hi Sharward, Unfortunately I had to build a frame anyway, so that the inner walls could sit on it. I have had a moisture problem in that room (it ate the carpet)so I have now fully sealed the floor and walls. I had no choice but to build a frame and it would be better to have the moisture(if any still comes through) going onto the rubber, not the wood..is that correct ?? What i really need to know is whether those plastic shims are suitable and whether they should go under or on top of the rubber because,as you can see, in my above post, the anwer is ambiguous. Cheers N Y M O

nymo wrote:

Hi Sharward, Unfortunately I had to build a frame anyway, so that the inner walls could sit on it. I have had a moisture problem in that room (it ate the carpet)so I have now fully sealed the floor and walls. I had no choice but to build a frame and it would be better to have the moisture(if any still comes through) going onto the rubber, not the wood..is that correct ?? What i really need to know is whether those plastic shims are suitable and whether they should go under or on top of the rubber because,as you can see, in my above post, the anwer is ambiguous. Cheers N Y M O

NYMO - if you have a moisture problem that you can't solve - then what you'e doing is the worst possible thing you can do. You would have been much better off to seal the existing slab - and then add a slab directly on top of it - The problem here is that you need for this deck to breathe (if there's moisture) otherwise it will have somemajor problems with mold and eventually the wood rotting away. This is one of the reasons that building codes require free air ventilation of crawl spaces under tempered living spaces....... here in the states that is generally around 1 sf of free air for each 150 sf of deck - and this is to be installed in such a manner that cross ventilation is provided. If this space was my space - i would remove the work and replace it with a raised slab over slab. It might cost you a few more bucks - but it's not going to blow up in your face in a few years if your moisture comes back.... and it will also give you better isolation that what "m looking at in your pictues - I wouldn'tplace a whole lot of hope in that deck gaining you any degree of isolation. Sincerely, Rod

Thanks, Rod. I was pretty sure that was the case but I didn't want to say for sure. --Keith :mrgreen:

Recycle the timber on the floor for the wall frames. Then you have wasted only time....not $

You would have been much better off to seal the existing slab - and then add a slab directly on top of it -

If this space was my space - i would remove the work and replace it with a raised slab over slab.

Rod, I hate to disagree with you but he said he did seal the slab. Now if he used the proper materials there is no problem. Materials today can take 25# down to 1# of pressure. Adding a topping slab without prevention would be the same as before. Vapor mitigation is extremely important prior to any topping or overlayment. concrete will breath without mitigation. And adding another layer of concrete would be the same as he has now. Sealing and then adding would be a waste of money. The second slab would breath as much as the first over time If he has a slab on grade with a sealed slab (proven/tested) there is no reason for mold to grow without moisture. Tom

TomVan wrote:

You would have been much better off to seal the existing slab - and then add a slab directly on top of it -

If this space was my space - i would remove the work and replace it with a raised slab over slab.

Rod, I hate to disagree with you but he said he did seal the slab. Now if he used the proper materials there is no problem. Materials today can take 25# down to 1# of pressure.

Tom, With all due respoect: you seemed to have missed the entire reason for his post...... he states (in response to a statement from Keith):

Unfortunately I had to build a frame anyway, so that the inner walls could sit on it. I have had a moisture problem in that room (it ate the carpet)so I have now fully sealed the floor and walls. I had no choice but to build a frame and it would be better to have the moisture(if any still comes through) going onto the rubber, not the wood..is that correct ??

So - his concern is about what happens if at some point and time the moisture problem comes back. It is to this that i responded. ANd I stand by that response - wood decks suck for isolation - much better off with the concrete. Why construct an acoustic problem to solve a moisture problem (that might come back still to haunt you?).

Adding a topping slab without prevention would be the same as before. Vapor mitigation is extremely important prior to any topping or overlayment. concrete will breath without mitigation. And adding another layer of concrete would be the same as he has now. Sealing and then adding would be a waste of money. The second slab would breath as much as the first over time

I never suggested adding a slab without prevention - in fact I suggested: "You would have been much better off to seal the existing slab - and then add a slab directly on top of it" Next, concrete does not breathe - it will pass water under one of 2 conditions - it can wick - and it will always loose against hydriostatic pressure. If the problem is wicking through the floor - then sealing the floor will stop that problem- althugh placing a wood deck on little posts might make it come back over time because the seal on a completely cured concrete deck is surface only- and you mow have materials with different expansion rates - with your wood deck and it's little posts constantly moving and rubbing away at the sealer...... which it will eventually wear through. However - if you put down a concrete deck over the existing - then the materials have the same expansion coefficiency - and this doesn't take place. NEXT - you make assumptions I do not make...... forexample- you refer to sealing the floors as if that's where his problem is...... yet he never states that - in fact what he says suggests he doesn't really know where the water is coming from. That's why he stated he sealed the floors AND walls....... If the water is coming the the walls - this generally suggests a problem with sitting water above the top of the footing - and if that's the case - sealer won't help at all. Even if you found every little crack and water plugged them(a sealer will not stop a leak through a crack - it will only stop wicking) then you would only transfer the locations where the water entered the building - because the water problem exists above slab elevation you have hydrostatic pressure - and there are always little cracks everywhere between what exist in the walls and what exist in the slab.including what exists between the walls and slab edges themselves........ Andif you could seal up all of thos little cracks- even a couple of pounds of hydrostatic pressure is enough to force a surface crack sealer out of it's joint unless you have taken the time and invested the energy to cut every crack into an inverted V to capture the repair - and THEN you still take a chance of having the edge break free under pressure and start the leak all over again. Me - I try to assume nothing - and only respondti what the poster posts...... I stand by my response - although I do respect your right to have a different opinion. Sincerely, Rod If he has a slab on grade with a sealed slab (proven/tested) there is no reason for mold to grow without moisture. [/quote]

Rod, Sorry to ruffle your feathers there was no intent. I read your last line that said "i would remove the work and replace it with a raised slab over slab." Missed the part in the first line about sealing. sorry His block wall construction view looks like the slab is on grade. Block wall on top of slab. And through the door the dirt line is below slab elevation. Unless the walls have not been painted/sealed from the outside there is probably no water coming through them. Unless the dirt line is above the floor. If it is above finish floor the wall needs waterproofing on the exterior. Rain driven moisture through block wall is also a problem if it not sealed properly. But you assumed it was't coming through the walls since you said to install a topping slab? As far as Hydrostatic pressure you do not need a water source above finish floor grade to get hydrostatic pressure. Poorly batched concrete and or heat add to this. And concrete does breath or out gas. I also install epoxy coatings,. Outgassing is a huge issue when installing The ass-umption I made was he said he HAD a water problem and has sealed the floor and walls. Couldn't find anywhere he said he didn't know where it was coming from. As far as sealing the floor I stated if it was done with proper materials At my day job I guarantee slab on grade vapor/moisture transmission mitigation with direct glue down of Hardwood flooring for 10 years. Cracks/joint and saw cuts need to be treated properly and not with water plug. Show me a piece of concrete and I will show you a crack. Have not had any mold issues or coefficiency issues. And it really isn't that much work. The only time I would put another layer of concrete/self leveler over the sealer would be for a concrete finish floor. Now with all that said I agree if it was not done properly, even the rubber will not help the wood stay dry once it is sheethed and heat is introduced to the building. And it is not the proper way to avoid your water issues. I think there is a big misunderstanding on this site about floating floors. I originally was going to float one of my floors when I started reading over a year and a half ago. But now everyone is saying not too. And Rod just so you know I have your book and it was the final puzzle piece I needed before starting. Respectfully Tom

Hi there, Thanx for the posts guys..great discussion ! One thing (ok..many!) things I don't understand is if I put another concrete slab on top of the current one, what do i put a decoupled wall on that is not touching the concrete ? Tom, what would I put over the concrete under the wooden flooring ? Actually the leak happened when a hail storm smashed the skylight and the rain came in thru the ceiling and down the walls...I didn't realise for about 2 weeks :roll: BTW Rod, your book landed yesterday..much to pour ( :wink: ) through ! Cheers N Y M O

Egg on my face. I guess I/we should have asked where the moisture was coming from :oops: Lets start over. Do you have moisture coming through the floor or walls? If you are not sure about the floor you can do a poor mans moisture test. You need to grind or aggresively sand an area about 1'x1' duct tape a piece of visqueen/heavy plastic to the floor around the edges. If you can heat the room to 65 degrees for a couple days and then pull up the plastic we will know by looking at the back if there is moisture and then we can go from there. If you are in a high humidity right now and have had the doors open you might get a false positive. find a dry place away from a wall and door. Rod can answer your decoupling from the floor better or look in his book Tom

OK...in my own inimitable way..... I tried various methods of suspending the insulation , trying fishing line, wire, whipper snipper line ! I ended up using a polypropylene string...and this rather unusual way of suspending it..by drilling a small hole through the joist and tightening it as much as possible to leave about a 20-25mm airspace under the insulation. Hopefully it won't be playing Hendrix to the vibrations :lol: Also..question to John Sayers(if you read this post) or any Australians 1 What is the Oz equivqlent to Roxul 703 ?? Is it Soundscreen ?? Cheers N Y M O

Ok..insulation is now down. Question(Yes..i do have Rods book but I can;t find it in there) When the builder is putting the first layer of floor.... is it glue'n'screw ?? or glue'n' nail ?? (builder says glue and nail) cheers N Y M O

ok...a question about the floor (again I'm confused) Should i now put the two layers of 3/4in mdf down and then attach the steel frame to that floor ?? As in picture 1 Or as in picture 2,where the frame is joined to the subfloor ?? Or Johns Design ?? There is so much confusing information on this forum ;-) Any help from anybody(very soon) greatly appreciated. Cheers N Y M 0

sorry ..obviously wrong file type :oops:

First, since you're obviously going ahead with the wooden floated floor - your insulation needs to be a bit thicker, at least in the middle of each joist cavity, so that it snugly contacts the first layer of subflooring - otherwise, I GUARANTEE you will have a "boom room" going. The flooring MUST be damped or it will vibrate, period. Second, the more mass in the floor the better - I would consider your two layers of 3/4" to be minimum, and you may want to consider something like 30 pound roofing felt between layers (but don't overlap it like a roof) - plus, you want to offset seams in the second layer so they don't line up in either direction. For this type floor, SCREWS and construction adhesive. You don't want squeaks down the road when nails pull loose. Walls - no point floating them on neoprene, may introduce ANOTHER resonance to fight. In the states there is a product called "sill seal", it's for topping off a perimeter concrete foundation before the sill plates go down. It's basically to help fill voids and avoid air infiltration in that context. If you can't find that, a couple layers of 30 pound roofing felt between the floor and the stud channel will also work. For mounting wallboard, see the stickies section on drywall and caulk. If there is a way to get some mechanical ventilation between your slab and that floated floor, I wouldn't hesitate - if it's too loud, you can turn it off during studio use. It'll be a big help toward avoiding any further chance of wood rot or mildew growth, along with keeping a dehumidifier in the space - for any wood instrument (and your health) 42% humidity is the goal... Steve

Thanx so much Knightfly for your definitive answer. I read this recently (it may have been you or Sharwood)

You absolutely should not attempt to install new inner leaf wall frames on top of a laminate floor. You'll crush and/or damage the laminate. I hope this doesn't lead to confusion, but laminate floors are meant to "float" freely so that they can expand and contract through the seasons. If you install walls on top of it, not only will you surely damage the laminate in the process, but the floor will buckle or pull apart, depending on the amount of humidity in the air.

Should i be using plywood floors instead of yellow tongue ? Cheers N Y M O

Couldn't find much on yellow tongue, thought I've heard the term; can you describe it as thoroughly as you know? Steve

'Twas I. 8)

Hi Knightfly, In Australia yellowtongue is like a mdf except it interlocks (tongue and groove) 19mm x 900mm x 3600mm As you can see its got pretty wet...we are in the middle of tropical storms :) cheers N Y M O

Oooohhhhhh... I don't think that stuff likes to get wet. :( Just the top piece, I hope...? :roll:

hi Sharwood, Can i attach the light guage steel wall to this type of wood after its put down?? Or should it attach to the edge of the frame I have and put the floor in later ?? cheers N Y M O

nymo wrote:

hi Sharwood,

Who? :?

nymo wrote:

Can i attach the light guage steel wall to this type of wood after its put down?? Or should it attach to the edge of the frame I have and put the floor in later ??

I'm going to defer to the others... You've already got the eyes of heavyweights Steve and Rod, so I wouldn't want to steer you in any one direction, only to have them (rightfully) contradict me. 8) --Keith :mrgreen: