I Need A Sketchup Artist In A Hurry. ;)

Hey all (and especially John) :) I have another ongoing post in the Construction area reference a Studio I want to build. When I got the building permits, they gave me a couple codes issues, that I cant seem to figure out solutions for. (especially doors and exits) It was suggested that maybe I put a post in here and maybe some of you experts with designs can help me out. Basically I will be building a square building (addition onto the back of my garage) that is 32ft long by 21 ft wide. In it, I would like to have a large tracking/rehersal room (I also practice with a 6 piece band who will be using the room) and a control room, and also it will have a loft over the control room area. My current dimensions for the rooms are: Tracking Room = 17ft Deep x 19ft Wide (and this room with be the room within the room construction for sound isolation Control Room = 13ft Deep x 17ftt Wide Loft = 13ft Deep x 20ft Wide (figuring no double walls in loft) And a 42" wide hallway between the house and the control and tracking rooms with an exit to the ouside. Below is the drawing/idea I currently have. One of the issues that codes requires is another doorway out of the TR, so thats why I put in the hallway with that door. I was hoping for double sliders to the outside world directly from the TR but was informed that would be a huge isolation issue nightmare. (and unfortunetly I DONT have several grand to buy the special doors needed to do so) :cry: Here are things I wanted to consider for this Home Studio, but if there is a better way (in other words if it was your room and you had "a average budget" to work with) how would you design it?? The excavators are ready to break ground for the footers (this week possibly) and I just want to do the best design for a home studio possible, before any ground is broke. Here is the latest do-able idea that I came up with. I have Sketchup 5, but I can not get it to work right (errors on loadup) so I will re install it and try that some more as we go. (already tried that once, but didnt fix it) If anyone here can put this drawing into a Sketchup (with any corrections that may be needed, such as the splayed walls etc) I would most appreciate it. I have re-drawn this thing about 50 times (and I am no builder or studio building engineer) and I still think there is a better design then this one. This area explains a bit as to the issues and considerations I have in building this Studio. should answer any questions I hope. And again, below is the current design I am working with. Please help..... :oops: :) And Thanks A Million for all the continued help and input on here. AJ PROPOSED STUDIO CONCERNS/ISSUES 1-THE STUDIO WILL BE DESIGNED AS A HOME RECORDING STUDIO THAT WILL BE BUILT WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF A LATER CONVERSION INTO A FAMILY/GREAT ROOM AREA. 2-STUDIO IS PROPOSED TO BE 21FT WIDE X X32FT DEEP, AND IT WILL HAVE A SECOND FLOOR LOFT AREA WHICH WILL BE 20FT WIDE BY 13 FT DEEP. IT WILL BE BUILT AND VIEWED AS AN EXTENSION OF THE GARAGE ITSELF WITHIN ITS FRAMING AND LOCATION. 3-THE STUDIO WILL BE ATTACHED AS “AN ADDITION” ONTO THE HOUSE, INSTEAD OF A SEPARATE BUILDING. THIS IS DUE TO RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE BOROUGH AND THE VARIANCES NEEDED TO DO OTHERWISE. THE ONLY COMMON WALL WITH THE HOUSE WILL BE THE REAR GARAGE WALL (SIDE A). 4-ATTENTION AND CONSTRUCTION HAS TO BE BASED ON THE FACT THAT THE ONE NEIGHBORS HOUSE, WHICH IS ONLY 20FT AWAY FROM PROPOSED STUDIO SITE (SIDE B). ISOLATION MUST BE THE PRIMARY FACTOR WITH BUILDING THIS ROOM. THERE WILL BE ONLY 1 SOLID METAL ENTRY DOOR ON THAT SIDE (SIDE B) OF THE STUDIO. OTHERWISE IT WILL BE KEPT SOLID, BUT THERE WILL BE FRAMING FOR FUTURE DOORS AND WINDOWS IF/WHEN CONVERTED INTO A STANDARD FAMILY ROOM. 5-THE TRACKING ROOM WILL HAVE A “BOX IN BOX” TYPE CONSTRUCTION (ROOM WITHIN A ROOM, TOTALLY “UNCOUPLED” AS REQUIRED) FOR THE BEST POSSIBLE SOUND ISOLATION. 6-THE STUDIO EXTERIOR WALLS WILL BE FRAMED OUT OF 2X6X8 WOOD STUDS. THE INTERIOR WALLS WITH BE FRAMED WITH 2X4X8 WOOD STUDS. THIS WILL BE BUILT USING THE MASS AIR MASS CONSTRUCTION THEORY (FOR THE TRACKING ROOM). 7-THE STUDIO WILL HAVE SCISSOR TYPE TRUSS ROOF OVER THE TRACKING ROOM, AND STICK BUILT SHED DORMER ROOF BUILT OVER THE LOFT / CONTROL ROOM AREA. THIS WILL ALLOW HAVING A HIGH PEAKED ROOF (INTERIOR CEILING) IN THE TRACKING ROOM THAT SHOULD BE ABOUT 15FT HIGH AT THE PEAK. THE LOFT WILL THEN HAVE APPROXIMATELY AN 9FT CEILING IN IT (TO THE PEAK). THE CONTROL ROOM WILL HAVE AN 8FT CEILING AS WELL. 8-THE CURRENT GARAGE ROOF IS 18FT HIGH WITH A STEEP 9/12 PITCH. THE ROOF ON THE STUDIO WILL HAVE A MUCH LESS PITCH OVER THE LOFT WHERE THE SHED TYPE DORMER ROOF WILL BE. 9-THE WALLS ON SIDES C & D WILL BE FRAMED OUT FOR THE INSTALLATION OF A SLIDING DOOR (CENTER SIDE C) AND WINDOWS AS IN THE DRAWINGS. THESE WINDOWS WILL NOT BE INSTALLED UPON THE BUILDING OF THE STUDIO. THAT OPTION WILL BE RESERVED FOR WHEN/IF THE BUILDING IS TRANSFORMED INTO FAMILY/GREAT ROOM. 10-FOR MASS AND TO HELP WITH ISOLATION OF SOUND, THE STUDIO WILL HAVE AT LEAST 2 LAYERS OF 5/8” DRYWALL ON ALL THE INTERIOR WALLS AND CEILING AREAS OF THE TRACKING ROOM. THESE LAYERS WILL BE INSTALLED IN AN ALTERNATING FASHION SO THE JOINING SEAMS DO NOT LINE UP (FIRST LAYER WILL BE UP AND DOWN, THE SECOND WILL BE SIDEWAYS, OR THE SHEETS WILL SIMPLY BE STAGGERED. 11-GREEN GLUE WILL BE APPLIED BETWEEN EVERY SHEET OF DRYWALL. 12-THE STUDIO WILL HAVE A TRACKING “LIVE” ROOM (19FT WIDE x 17FT DEEP), ALSO A SEPARATE CONTROL ROOM (17FT WIDE X 13FT DEEP). OVER THE CONTROL ROOM WILL BE A MIXDOWN LOFT WITH BASICALLY THE SAME DIMENSIONS AS THE CONTROL ROOM. BOTH LOFT AND CONTROL ROOM WILL BE TOTALLY DE-COUPLED FROM THE TRACKING ROOM AS WILL THE REST OF THE BUILDING AS WELL. 13-THE STUDIO WILL BE BUILT ON A 4” CONCRETE SLAB. NO FLOATING FLOORS AT THIS POINT, (BUT POSSIBLY AN ISOLATED SLAB BETWEEN THE TRACKING ROOM AND CONTROL ROOM AREA) THIS FLOOR WILL BE REINFORCED USING #4 REBAR WHICH WILL BE 12” O.C., ALONG WITH FIBERMESH IN THE CONCRETE TO FURTHER REDUCE THE CHANCES OF CRACKING. IT IS BEING CONSIDERED THAT THIS FLOOR WILL THEN BE FINISHED TO A MARBLE TYPE FINISH USING ACID STAINING, THERE WILL THEN JUST BE AREA THROW RUGS USED, OR IT WILL BE TOTALLY CARPETED. 14-THERE WILL BE NO DRUM RISER BUILT WITHIN THE TRACKING ROOM. 15-THE STUDIO WILL HAVE SOLID CORE DOORS USED THROUGHOUT ALL THE SOUND AREAS OF THIS BUILDING. THESE DOORWAYS ARE TO BE SEALED DOORWAYS, AROUND THE DOOR PERIMETER AND THRESHOLDS UNDER THE DOORS FOR SOUND ISOLATION. 16-THE AREA ABOVE THE TRACKING ROOM CEILING, BUT BELOW THE ROOFLINE, WILL BE A 3FT OPEN SPACE “SOUND LOCK” AREA TO HELP AQUIRE THE BEST SOUND ISOLATION POSSIBLE. 17-IN ORDER TO KEEP THE ROOM “EASILY TRANSFORMABLE” FOR LATER USE, ONLY THE INTERIOR TRACKING ROOM WALL (SIDE D) WILL BE SLIGHTLY SPLAYED ON A CENTER INWARD PEAK, SO IT’S NOT PARALLEL WITH THE SIDE A, B OR C INTERIOR TRACKING ROOM WALLS. ALSO THE WALL BETWEEN THE TRACKING ROOM AND CONTROL ROOM WILL BE ANGLED AS WELL. 18-THE SIDES B & C WALLS WILL BE THE ONLY FLAT STRAIGHT SURFACED WALLS. THIS IS ALSO FOR LATER EASE, TO BUILD AND INSTALL BOX AREAS FOR THE ALREADY FRAMED WINDOWS ON THOSE SIDES. 19-THERE WILL BE A DOUBLE GLASS CONSTRUCTED STUDIO WINDOW BETWEEN THE TRACKING ROOM AND THE CONTROL ROOM. THE WINDOW PANES MAY BE ANGLED AS RECOMMENDED FOR SOUND. 20-THERE WILL BE A DOUBLE PANED WINDOW (SAME AS IN CONTROL ROOM) IN THE LOFT AREA TO SEE INTO THE TRACKING ROOM. THE DISECTED WALL DIAGRAM FOR THIS STUDIO’S WALLS AND CEILINGS WILL BE: (EXTERIOR TO INTERIOR): ** STUCCO ON OUTSIDE FACE **10FT “HOUSE WRAP” BARRIER AROUND STRUCTURE **DOUBLE LAYER OF OSB 7/16 EXTERIOR SHEETING **2X6X8 EXTERIOR WOOD STUD WALL FRAMING **2X4X8 INTERIOR WOOD STUD WALL FRAMING **UNFACED INSULATION BETWEEN STUDS ON EXTERIOR WALLS AND INTERIOR TRACKING ROOM WALLS **A 3” AIR GAP ALL THE WAY AROUND (ROOF AND SIDES) OF TRACKING ROOM **2 LAYERS OF 5/8 SHEETROCK ** ALL TRACKING ROOM WALLS, THE DRYWALL SHEETS WILL BE “GREEN GLUED” TOGETHER **ALL SEAMS WILL BE SEALED WITH ACOUSTICAL CAULKING INTERIOR WALLS WILL THEN BE PAINTED (ALSO NOTE: THERE WILL BE BROADBAND ABSORPTION PANELS (4X8 703 FRAMED PANELS) THROUGHOUT THE STUDIO AND CORNER BASS TRAPS. (UNDERSTANDING THIS IS NOT FOR ISOLATION, BUT RATHER ABSORPTION PURPOSES AS/IF NEEDED) 21-THE HVAC WILL BE A SEPARATE HEAT PUMP 1.5 TON HVAC SYSTEM FEEDING INTO THE ADDITION (PROBABLY PIPED AND VENTED FROM THE OUTSIDE, THROUGH THE GARAGE LOFT AREA (SIDE A WALL) AND THUS NOT HAVING TO BREECH ANY PART OF THE (SIDE B) WALL (THE NEIGHBOR’S SIDE). THE UNIT WILL SIT IN THE EXISTING GARAGE LOFT AND ALSO OUTSIDE AS DESIGNED. THE INTERIOR DUCTWORK WILL BE RAN OVERHEAD, AND THER WILL BE 2 SENDS AND 2 RETURNS FROM THE STUDIO. THIS UNIT WILL ALSO SUPPLY FRESH AIR IN AND OUT OF THE STUDIO AS NEEDED, AND DEHUMIDIFY AS WELL. 22-THERE WILL MOST LIKELY BE A “SOUND DECOUPLING SUBSTANCE” PUT BETWEEN ALL THE WALLS AND THE FLOOR ITSELF TO HELP ISOLATE SOUND TRANSMISSION. SILL SEAL WILL ALSO BE USED PER CODES.

do you have any elevation drawing - dimensions? how high is each floor, type of trusses, etc...

I hope this helps. The building will be the same on the exterior on both sides. The control room will have an entry door on side B of the building (the side facing you in the drawing), but its not on the drawing below. (it is on the upper drawing) The ceilings heights are very close estimates. I didnt get exact with the 2X10's in the loft etc that we will be stick building the roof over the loft with. The rest of the building (over the tracking room area) is planned to have scissor truss's at the same 9/12 pitch as the garage, so those two roof lines are the same. Also on the Side C of the building, there is a hallway that has a required exit door from it as in the upper drawing. Thanks for your time and equipment is moving in tomorrow for the footers, foundation and pad. I wont be framing/building until this Spring. Maybe by then I can figure out Sketchup. I worked with it again a couple hours today and it won. I cant get it happining. :oops: :cry:. Thanks again AJ

the dimensions seem off. if the actual roof height is 18 feet, and you have a 9/12 roof pitch, assuming the 8' floor-ceiling height in the bottom is correct, you're only looking at 5-6 feet in of ceiling in the loft area. 8 feet bottom floor-ceiling + 1 foot (approx for joists, subfloor, floor etc) + 3 feet from top for roof truss = you have 6 feet left. if you're not right on the concrete slab (maybe you're building a wood floor off the slab for under-floor hvac and plumbing) then that's likely another 1 foot out of the 18 - leaving 5 feet. this is likely why you're struggling with Sketchup... maybe you can leave out the loft and just have a high ceiling all around?

On Studio911 construction thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=15 there is a pic of rear of existing garage, roof is shown. AJ, Since Gulfo pointed that out, you would be a lot better off acoustic wise with one 1st floor CR, the loft CR will be rather small, you'l gain sqft with out stairs on 1st floor CR AND the "attic" cubic space could be used for a huge cloud with hangers above. For example See: http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainp ... toppop.htm Marc

The open CR room has been discussed, but I guess I am confused as being told there wouldnt be head room (or much room period for that matter) if I did build this loft>?>? :?: Below is another picture to help better explain the design idea (if there is to be a loft), and in that you will see that above the Control Room (where the proposed loft is to be) that roofline will be stick built as a shed dormers out both sides of the roof. Then over the back of the building (Tracking Room area) it will again be trussed to match the current garage roof line and pitch (because there will be nothing under that roof except the tracking room ceiling a few feet below it which will be peaked as well). So unless I am way off base (which is very possible) this loft should be about 16 ft wide with abotu 8ft head room all the way across except at the very ends of the dormers where it will drop a little for pitch. And in that area, I was going to make boxes under the windows (maybe 3ft x 3ft, that you could even sit on if you wanted) for the HVAC ductwork for the tracking room to run through. :?: One of the local engineers at a local commercial studio here said he liked the loft idea, BUT also thought I should keep the CR all on one floor,,,but,,,build the loft and use it as maybe an ISO area, or even a lounge area to get the musicians out of the control room whenever possible. Does this make better sense now,,,,or am I messin this whole idea up? :oops: Thanks again AJ

adding the dormers would help. you can probably go with a 4/12 pitch on the dormer and this would give you the head room.

gullfo in your drawing you would have to extend the exterior wall of the dormer out to sit right on top of lower wall in order for the stairs to work. theres no headroom as your walkin up the stairs. a suggestion would be make the first sec. of stairs like 3 or 4 treads and make the 2nd set long for you idea to work or bring wall out and just make a str8 run adding some space to the CR and adding a storage under the stairs. making xtra garage storage since the cr is gonna be decoupled from the loft above and garage, or make it isolated machine room.

i was just quickly sketching it to make sure I had the overall concept correct before putting in any more time... thanks for the input though... problem with this arragement is access to the 1/2 bath is through the control room... could the stair and 1/2 bath be put into the garage?

Glenn,,,first and foremost THANK YOU!! :wink: I was able to show the sketches you made to my wife and she loved them, as do I. Much better then my attempts with paper and pencil. :lol: The dormers were going to run to the outside wall so you didnt hit your head going up the steps, but now with your latest drawing, you REALLY have me thinking. I like the idea of the steps goin up from the left side of the building and the bathroom on the right. :wink: Now the plumbers are to be here within 1/2 hour do start the rough in of the pipes before the slab is poured, now I have to decide quick on this possible change. :D Also, would it be better for me to run the floor joists for the loft front to back (13ft span) instead of left to right (16 or more ft span)?? Just asking?? :D Anyway, thanks again for everyones input so far. You guys are a great help! :wink: AJ

the downside to the dormers extending all the way out means with the end height will be really low, or the pitch too flat for the type of contruction. I think first and foremost - talk with contractors and/or architects to ensure the design ideas are feasible and meet your needs. given the garage is a standard size, you probably cannot put the stairs and bath there... do you really want people going through the control room to get to the bathroom or is traffic light enough not to matter?

gullfo wrote:

do you really want people going through the control room to get to the bathroom or is traffic light enough not to matter?

Hi Glenn and thanks again for all your input (and the rest of you as well). As far as the bathroom traffic, I am building this more-so for my own use. I do however plan to have some others in from time to time to do some low key recordings (demo and such), and also for band practices, so the bathroom and traffic shouldnt be too much a problem. I know I will kick myself in the butt, because I really liked the idea of reversing the steps and bathroom, and using the straight stairs, but the plumbers needed an answer as they stood there ready to dig in, and they sorta talked me outta doing it that way because of the pitch of the roof and headroom at the top. So we went with the original "L" shaped stairs design. I will however only will have maybe 3 risers at the bottom so it does not go too far into the CR. This should then put me out at the top of the steps with plenty of headroom. (I am 6ft 2in) :lol: I will be doing the doormers as in your sketch, but bringing them out further to the edge, and I also am kicking around the moving of the entry door from the control room to the tracking room. Footers were dug today and plumbing inspected and approved, and once the pad is poured that will be it till spring. So I have all winter to kick around ideas as far as the layout and tweak it. I would like to ask in your sketch, you have the L stairs seperate from the control room, and there seems to be a wall between them. So does that mean in order to travel from the control room to the tracking room (or stairs) you have to walk around to the other side of the CR to enter it? Thanks again for everything, and I am excited to progress further with ideas so I am ready in April. :wink: I think this is going to be the longest winter ever for me! :twisted: AJ

conceptually I assumed the stairs would be isolated from the CR but we can play with both options. the one idea from the isolated hall is that you could use that space for vox or amps in case you needed more space to isolate + the loft for that purpose as well.

Hi Glenn, I think we will have to run with the idea of the loft area being the only ISO area. The plumbers already ran the pipe, and have the bathroom beside the garage door. Would it be that difficult to make the change on your sketch, and have the dormers come almost all the way out to the sides of the 1st floor (I guess it would then be like a 2nd floor construction instead of a dormer type) but I think that might be the best way to go to get the headroom needed. I also tweaked the measurments a bit since some doors, stairs and walls were moved, and below I think is pretty close to scale. :oops: In these drawings below, I kept the stairs in the CR for now, and also kept the Enterance Door from side B entering into the CR at the foot of the steps as well. Is this workable?? I have a couple places here that want to see the drawings and sketches so they can draw up a preliminary materials list to give me an idea on price for some of the materials that will be needed for the project (and their discounts). :lol: I also plan to splay a couple more of the walls, but I am just not sure which ones and how yet. :? I guess I can work on that later in the process. You help is very much appreciated as always. :wink: Thanks again AJ

Glenn (and the rest who may have input), Here is a crappy attempt :oops: at a drawing I did showing the outside of the building (not to scale) but gives the idea for the rooflines and the dormer look I am after. I went on the internet and took a picture of a cabin that was for sale, and took it into Photoshop and edited it to try to get it close. Below is sorta what I had in mind for the exterior (again, not to scale). Thanks AJ

AJ - here's a sketchup containing the base layout with dimensions. if you can verify these are all correct. some thoughts - way not put the stairs to the loft outside of the control room? i.e. the pass in front of the control room leading to a landing above it and you enter the loft through a slider. another thought - maybe put the CR and loft on the far side and the live room on the garage side. yes you'll have the bathroom in the live room but is a small space and you could even it a bit by adding a vox booth on the other side of it (from the door) or use that jut out of the bathroom to back on the resonator wall treatment. plus now 3 of the walls of the live room are now isolated by other rooms - florida room, CR, and garage so it may help in reducing overall isolation work.

maybe put the CR and loft on the far side and the live room on the garage side.

I like that idea :D Adds space to CR for acoustics and da splaying PLUS if the loft ends up with the amount of windows AJ is thinking about the view & sunlight could come from 3 sides of room instead of just 2, 1 of which would have windows closer to house as opposed to non flipping current layout. Marc

here's an interesting parallel thread :-) http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 3259#53259 you could put the CR in the loft... then you'd have an entire room (below) for drums and or other instruments... better visibility for the performers.. people hanging out would lose a private lounge area but you can always have a "shutup we're recording" rule in place... :-)

Ok,,,I am liking the latest suggestions. :D Really adding a new life to the design, but I have a couple isolation questions in doing some of these ideas :?: If I open up the whole first floor for tracking (I think John also suggested this a while back) wont that mean a ton more of double walling for isolation? As of right now, I was planning on building the room within the room ONLY for the tracking (live) room area, then the rest of the addition (loft, CR and bathroom) were going to be standard constructed single walls. I think the only area that would have a volume or really much noise for that matter will be the tracking room. The CR or loft I will not be playing stuff real loud in (I wouldnt expect). :? So,,,,if I would open the whole first floor up to tracking (live) then I would have to basically double wall the whole building....right? OR...would I just have to double wall all the walls that arent connected to the other rooms (Garage, Florida Room, etc)?? Next, if I DO build the whole place as room within room (double walled) construction, then in the loft, if I were to install the windows upon building, wouldnt those windows (standard windows) create a flanking path between the interior walls and exterior walls? And also being standard windows (even though on the 2nd floor) wouldnt they allow alot of sound through?? Again, I cant afford the 4K windows as discussed earlier. :oops: As it is now, I am FRAMING ONLY the windows and 6ft door in the tracking room because of the potential for flanking (with the window/door framing), and losing the isolation. But the loft, was to have windows installed upon building since it wasnt within the "room in a room" area.>? Don't shoot me for asking all this, i am just trying to learn. :wink: I also am looking at the steps to the loft being relocated from the CR to the TR as suggested. That sure would open up more room in the CR which would be nice and the ISO room then would be a very cool addition. :wink: Glenn, the diagram with the dimensions you posted are very close. I just went out to re-measure a couple places, and there are a few small changes (posted below) but its real close. And lastly,,,,I guess if I just flipped the whole diagram around and moved the CR to the back, and it wasnt part of the room in room construction, I could in fact go ahead and install the standard 6ft slider door in, and a couple windows instead of just framing them. :) But having the 2nd story loft roof off the end of the building instead of where it was (in the middle more-less) might take some getting used to. I'll have to try to draw that in Smart Draw. :D I made the changes to the diagram below (sketchup allowed me to do that much) :) so now they are pretty on the money. as for what we do for the inside design, I am still open to all your ideas and suggestions. I think by Spring, we will/should have a pretty darn good idea of how this thing should turn out, but,,,, for the need of the haunches for the interior walls within the next 2 weeks when they pour the pad, I guess I better get something pretty close ASAP huh? :oops: I am excited,,, and as always,,,Thank You to all you guys!!! :wink: AJ

that's the beauty of having all winter to plan. you can play what-if games.. as far as isolation, the roof would need to be isolated as well since the roof would tend to leak (sound) quite a bit... I tend to think the CR would be less likely to be a problem since you're going to be treating things and even more likely to have reasonable volumes... downstairs then you'd probably need the double rooms and such to meet your isolation requirements... once the sketchup file is ready i think more people will kick in ideas...

and with the loft over the back

interior space w/ loft by garage. this should suffice to start thinking about the studio layout as its pretty close dimensionally.

Glenn, We have now woke up a sleeping monster with the latest drawings. :lol: :lol: And that would be the wife. :lol: :lol: I showed her your latest drawings, and I think (pretty much know) she is now sold on one of them, if we can make it happen. She LOVES the idea of having the dormers on the back of the addition and basically just flipping the whole plan. She likes the drawing with the dormer on the back end, instead of against the garage, so we can put the doors and windows in awhile, and in doing so, she also moved the slider to the side which will go out onto a small 11 X 14 brick patio (where the fish pond used to be as shown in some of my pictures in the Construction Thread). I must say, I like that design concept as well. I took your Sketchup, (and dont laugh too hard) and after totally screwing it up for about an hour by ending up with gutters coming out of the roof, and doors laying flat on the ground etc etc), :oops: I was finally able to copy and paste doors and windows to about the location we were thinking. If you could check it out, fine tune it/make it right, and let me know if you think its do-able, that would be awsome. :wink: (I didnt change any dimensions listed on the drawings) I do have a concern about the L shaped stairs in the new design due to the location of the sliding door (as you'll see in the attached returned sketchup). But only having 2 or 3 steps at the bottom of the L might make it be able to fit right beside the slider going up. I even toyed with putting a window there, which would be on the landing of the L shaped stairs.>? :?: Also, if I could ask another favor (as if I havent asked enough already) :oops: but the last sketchup you did with the rafters exposed and being able to see the interior, could you possibly do that with this new design. :wink: If all fits into place, I think we might have a winner with a design. :D :wink: Its basically flipping the original design, and having the CR and Loft in the rear of the addition now. Also I guess keeping the CR on the first floor and the loft seperate (used for: ISO room, mixdown room, Computer room, Lounge, get away room, etc etc) . You cant imagine how much your assistance through this is appreciated!! Many thanks again. :) AJ

Since I am unable to save Sketchup as a .jpg, below is an outline that goes with the above sketchup revision. Again, this might not be do-able due to dimensions, but I think everything is close to scale (although I dont know exactly how much room "L" shaped stairs take up, but I hope this will all work>? :? And in moving the stairs to the back, this opened up the area beside the bathroom (which is already plumbed in) so I added an ISO area/room (or maybe I should divide that area into 2 Iso Areas if there is enough room) :?: . Let me know what you think. Thanks Again AJ

AJ - check this thread - John's design would possibly be workable for your room as well: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 3317#53317 below - reversed loft and stairs. put slider back to middle w' change in stair config. should be ready now to sketch studio designs in...