Ro's Rehearsal/studio rooms. [stage: build]

Eric_Desart wrote:

Even the lowest 60 kg/m3 bonded foam is acoustically rather dense (not mechanically) for just a topfloor in MDF (but better than fiberglass or rockwool). I have this data somewhere in my archives. This is measured by the Belgian WTCB (Wetenschappelijk Technisch Centrum Bouwbedrijf) very long ago for Agglorex in MOL (Belgian producer) which in the Netherlands is distributed by .... damnit name escapes me now ..... Found it: Akousticon But be careful with their advice. Very recently they advised a very heavy multi-leaf floor for rock bands (even with quality concrete top floor system) and it became a costly disaster for their client, typically resulting from a heavy but stupid designed multi-leave system. That project was a very typical example of the risks of multi-leave systems. They really used the principle the heavier and the more leafs the better and at the end the drums came through at > 60 to 65 dB (can't remember) at residential neighbors. Check those links (All Dutch): http://www.prikpagina.nl/read.php?f=130&i=6215&t=6211 I think if you go for a lightweight top floor, that your better off with a structure as with those Auralex beam things or whatever comparable, and fill it up with wool, and control the drum skin effect with Green Glue between double layer. But as always: it depends on what you expect from it. A floating floor/construction varies between a couple of mm polyethylene foam to 1 foot high steel springs. The standard MSM principles apply to floating floors as often described here in the forum and by Steve. There are no magic materials capable of changing physics. Eric

Hai Eric. The Auralex solutions (u prolly mean beams with u-boat rubbers, right) was my initial plan, but transmission isolation between floors is not realy what my goal is with them floors. It's more to keep flanking at minimum. I've been searching for more solutions but this looked like the easiest and best so far. But again, I'm not sure yet. IF I go for the agglofoam with woodfloor (1x15mm is lightweight indeed, might consider that again) isn't a more dense material beter when mass increases? That's what I've been wondering all along, what if I calculate the dead and expected live load. HOW to choose the right density?

Edited: Ro I noticed that you're going to build your wall on top of that floating floor? Then you need different densities and someone must calculate that for you. Maybe Acousticon will? I don't know. I find it risky with this bonded foam in the long run (material fatigue). You only speak about mainly polyethers here. I don't know how this behaves in the long run. It's not a matter of density, because there is bonded foam extremely dense.

Yes, again... it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Asked about options in this very thread with little results however. Why on top of the floor? It's to keep my walls from the existing floor. Thought about the weight and all, hence the questions above. Still looking for a good solution. .... so much questions.. so much to consider. thanx for your expertise so far Eric. I will look into the link you gave me. I've been on the akoestikon site before, gonna check'm again. :idea:

Ro wrote:

1) IF I go for the agglofoam with woodfloor (1x15mm is lightweight indeed, might consider that again) isn't a more dense material beter when mass increases? That's what I've been wondering all along, what if I calculate the dead and expected live load. HOW to choose the right density? Yes, again... it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Asked about options in this very thread with little results however. Why on top of the floor? It's to keep my walls from the existing floor. Thought about the weight and all, hence the questions above. Still looking for a good solution. .... so much questions.. so much to consider. thanx for your expertise so far Eric. I will look into the link you gave me. I've been on the akoestikon site before, gonna check'm again. :idea:

Ro, Ask the supplier, if you speak about densities and deflection. I told this is measured, hence they should find that, being able to help you. Ro these are relative cheap and relative good materials. I know this material very well from very long ago (before akoesticon was even established). But I'm on the net to share principles, not doing individual project calculations. If you just use it for a lightweight floating floor the 60 kg/m3 is OK. Depending on the thickness your floor will really feel a bit springy then. Hence you can't go lower, while at the other hand the MSM will still be too high for pro results. Hence it's ALWAYS good to make that top floor as heavy as possible, and make the live load relative insignificant versus the dead static load. Those materials are not tested for critical applications in the long run as e.g. Sylomer, but which costs a multiple as well. Edited: Just copied part of another post of me here since the basic principles are equal. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The basic principle: The higher deflection under load the lower the resonance frequency = the better decoupling. But if by bringing the deflection to a frequency point where vibration levels are dominant than you introduce a problem yourself. For linear springs the relation deflection/resonance frequency = Metric fo = 15.8/sqrt(d) d=(15.8/fo)^2 fo = resonance frequency d= deflection in mm Imperial the same in imperial: fo = 3.13502/sqrt(d) d=(3.13502/fo)^2 fo = resonance frequency d = deflection in inches Note that depending on material this can deviate somewhat. The above assumes linear springs, but is a good rule of thumb. Some materials are made just to improve high frequencies (impact noise). They have there resonance in an unhealthy spot, but since rather damped don't cause practical trouble and below that frequency that material doesn't work as a decoupling anymore. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For testdata I will consult the manufacturers. Also found other products which, indeed, are much more expensive. And that's something too consider too since my bank account is not endless :( Is it wise to consider 2 different densities, one for the floor middle part and one for underneath the walls (the outside rim of the floor) ? Since there's no beam structure in this drawing, forces will not be balanced. Pressure is mostly at the outside areas of the floor. I could also redraw the plan and NOT having the walls on this floor, but I need some decoupling material underneath my frame. Altho I've seen many ppl here make use of just some rubber strips, it was always on a concrete floor. Mine's wood for the 2nd and 3rd floor. What impact do these walls have (flanking wise?) if I have them resting on the original floor? Have to do the calculations for the deadload one of these days.. darn, where's time when you need it :?

Ro wrote:

For testdata I will consult the manufacturers. Also found other products which, indeed, are much more expensive. And that's something too consider too since 1) my bank account is not endless :( 2) Is it wise to consider 2 different densities, one for the floor middle part and one for underneath the walls (the outside rim of the floor) ? Since there's no beam structure in this drawing, forces will not be balanced. Pressure is mostly at the outside areas of the floor. 3) I could also redraw the plan and NOT having the walls on this floor, but I need some decoupling material underneath my frame. Altho I've seen many ppl here make use of just some rubber strips, it was always on a concrete floor. Mine's wood for the 2nd and 3rd floor. What impact do these walls have (flanking wise?) if I have them resting on the original floor? 4) Have to do the calculations for the deadload one of these days.. darn, where's time when you need it :?

1) :twisted: Commonly known problem .... 2) You MUST consider 2 densities with this design. If not this floor is bad. If using high density to carry the walls the MSM for the floor becomes much to high. If using a density calculated for the floor, your deflection underneath the walls becomes too high (mechanically bad). At least this must be calculated. It could be possible to work with cut pieces, but the shape factor for this material can only be guestimated, and what you safe on material cost, cost much more on study cost. Basically what you have to do is obtaining a common MSM over the floor and edges. Since this MSM is related to deflection, which is why I gave the formulas in my previous edit, you could experiment with it yourself if you like. :) I have the feeling you didn't wonder why I entered those formulas, isn't it? 3) There are more ways to obtain a goal. A related thread: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.p ... 3afc7ae9fd + everything you can find in this forum. 4) :) Also commonly known problem. Success

Thanx Eric, will read more on this and start with calcs these days. Who said this was gonna be e.z. :twisted: (not me)

:twisted: You're probably right but what is the meaning of e.z.?

Eric_Desart wrote:

:twisted: You're probably right but what is the meaning of e.z.?

e.z as in easy (try pronouncing "e . . z... " :) ) thanx for the edit on page 2.

Man, I've been searching the whole net for mass/material. Found some for gypsum. 12,5mm is about 12,5 kg/m2, so that's easy. now, metalstud profiles... could not found anything. I was wondering ain't there a list with materials used and it's mass? just like the bobgolds.com absorbation table ?

Ro, Be careful. Gypsum board ranges between 680 to a bit more than 1000 kg/m3 depending on type and supplier. The ones you referred or not standard. Standard boards here and Netherlands will be more around 750 kg/m3. (= 0.75 kg per mm per m²) The fire resistant or moisture resistant types are often the heaviest. Metalstud is easy. The lightweight profiles are +/- 0.6 mm thick galvanised steel and the density of steel is +/- 7.8 to 8 kg per mm per m2. If you ask documentation on your supplier you can find all this info back. Eric

The gypsum specs are from the ones I had in mind, but gotta check it with my supplier I guess. Thanx for the steel info. Okay, back to calculations again... thanx again for your unlimited supply of info and patience (so it seams) :)

Mkay... Been quite bussy with hasling my supliers for specs on the to-be-used materials. Calculated what mass to expect for the walls and floors. Here's what I came up with. (Still haven't decided on how we're gonna setup the floors. But let's assume the walls are on top of the new floor. Anyhow, I've gotta beef up the existing floor underneath the area were the walls will be.) - Materials Gypsum (gyproc-A) 12,5mm (1/2") 728 kg/m3 Metalstud U-profile 100mm (4") 4800 kg/m3 Metalstud C-profile 100mm (4") 4800 kg/m3 Thermofelt subfloor 7.5mm (3") 260 kg/m3 MDF 15mm (5/8") 800 kg/m3 Agglomer 30mm 140 kg/m3 Laminate floor +/-5mm (2") 800 kg/m3 (not sure, but since laminate is made of MDF I took the same value of MDF) Floor 3: (see picture) The room innerwalls and floor ("speelruimte") and the controlroom wall are in total about 3000 kg. walls: 3 layers of 12.5mm gypsum, isowool, metalstuds floor: agglomer, MDF, subfloor, laminate floor (I've include 10% overhead for screws, plaster, sealant etc) This is pure the deadload of the walls and floors. Does this seem right? Or am I WAAY off :? Another thing. I've made an apointement with an acoustic engineer who will perform an "acoestic test". This test will tell us how the building reacts on sound and where the biggest leaks are. But prior to that, new/extra windows will be installed (today!) in the relax area on the 2nd floor. Resulting in a window with 2 pieces of glass; 3mm (the existing pane) and 4mm (the new added one) with an air gap of 50mm.

Ro wrote:

- Materials Gypsum (gyproc-A) 12,5mm (1/2") 728 kg/m3 Metalstud U-profile 100mm (4") 4800 kg/m3 Metalstud C-profile 100mm (4") 4800 kg/m3 Thermofelt subfloor 7.5mm (3") 260 kg/m3 MDF 15mm (5/8") 800 kg/m3 Agglomer 30mm 140 kg/m3 Laminate floor +/-5mm (2") 800 kg/m3 (not sure, but since laminate is made of MDF I took the same value of MDF)

:mrgreen: Hi Ro, I never in my live heard Metalstud profiles weighing close to nothing (thin 0.6 mm steel) expressed in density as you do. Steel weighs 7800 to 8000 kg/m3. I assume you calculated the density in function of the volume of your cavity or something? :? But that should mean that your cavity is filled with steel for a factor 4800/8000 = 60% :) :) ????????????????????????

hmm, I screwed SOMETHING up :( Gotta check my XL sheet tomorrow, thanx for watching over my shoulder Eric. ps: Just got back from the building, got some extra windows added in the relax/smoking area :) Had to be done prior to the acoustic test (read back for the arguments) 2nd picture shows some rotten window-sealant, which the "guy" renewed. No more rattling window, yeah! First picture's the actual proof somebody came over to add some glass :twisted: I've noticed some glass and whole pieces of rotten wood dropped down from the 3rd floor yesterday, BAD! I've informed my landlord about it, since this has become a hazard.

Eric_Desart wrote:

Ro wrote:

- Materials Gypsum (gyproc-A) 12,5mm (1/2") 728 kg/m3 Metalstud U-profile 100mm (4") 4800 kg/m3 Metalstud C-profile 100mm (4") 4800 kg/m3 Thermofelt subfloor 7.5mm (3") 260 kg/m3 MDF 15mm (5/8") 800 kg/m3 Agglomer 30mm 140 kg/m3 Laminate floor +/-5mm (2") 800 kg/m3 (not sure, but since laminate is made of MDF I took the same value of MDF)

:mrgreen: Hi Ro, I never in my live heard Metalstud profiles weighing close to nothing (thin 0.6 mm steel) expressed in density as you do. Steel weighs 7800 to 8000 kg/m3. I assume you calculated the density in function of the volume of your cavity or something? :? But that should mean that your cavity is filled with steel for a factor 4800/8000 = 60% :) :) ????????????????????????

Whoops, found the error. Somewhere (too early) I devided 8000 with 0.6 (which is 4800) Difference in total: about 200Kg. :) So, load of the walls and floor is about 3250Kg, give or take.

Prep and a little demo time. Acoustic test Tomorrow I've got a acoustic-test scheduled. This test is to get my permit and to get insight in where the weakpoints are in the building (which I already know..) Furthermore the test results will be used by the municipal of the city I live in to see if 2 of the 3 rooms can be temp re-opened. (as stated earlier, the whole rehearsal building is closed by that same municipal due to complains from neighbors. As only the top floor room radiates to much sound we're trying to proof that the rooms on floor 1 and 2 will be close within sound limits.. sort of. We're still doing a whole make over, but we're already closed for 5 months. That means a whole bunch of bands can't do what the love to do so much: make music) So the test will proof that next door neighbors, that live 2 stories high (like our room on floor 2) will barely hear any noise. We've already checked that with those ppl, they never complaind while bands were rehearsing at floor 1 or 2. Ahwell...... Beef it up Prior to the acoustic test I wanted to do some extra beef-ups. There were still some very very weak points on floor 1. The Liveroom will be totally rebuild but there's also the smoking/relax area on that floor which needed some extra beef. The windows for example, they were fixed last week (check earlier posts) by adding another pane. There's also a hatch (some sort of emergency exit) which is a serious leak. It's made of a wood frame with a 1/10" (2,5mm) plywood sheet without any wool between it. It has no mass, that's close to nothing for soundisolation. So we removed them and replaced it with 15mm MDF and added wool. Also placed an extra frame (as in tresshold) on the inside with weatherstrips (we didn't use any sealant tho... have to do that later) Here's a picture to back up my words ;) (It's my buddy adding the extra frame.) Wow, the hatch "feels" heavier already. So by now I've got the weakest weakpoints covered yet, the windows and the hatch.

Demo, sort of... There a a bunch of windows on the 3rd floor which have no functions since there's extra walls on the inside (see 1st photo). Those haven't been in maintenance for wel... atleast 15 years (that's how long I'm in the building already). It's a rental and the landlord didn't do ziltch about the building unless I complained. (well to be honest, we're not paying much rent so I can't even complain that much) These windows now start falling down, very dangerous. A few months ago the first glass pane dropped and 2 last week a whole windowframe dropped out of it's hinges, the wood is totally rotten! (see picture 2 and 3) Whow! the horror! (yup, that's really really bad) The landlord agreed to remove the windows and put bricks in. (well, we were gonna do that anyhow). But that will not be done untill demo time (so there's better access from the inside of the building) In the meantime this harzardous situation has to be solved! So, we removed the most rotten parts. About 10 pieces of glass were removed while some wood was re-fastened with some nails (altho the wood is rotten, some did hold the long nails..pweh) Check pix 4 & 5.

Acoustic Test Done Today I we had a acoustic test scheduled, done by a profesional acoustic engineer. His name is Serge and is an extremely nice person, we had a great time and talked about the whole project and musical interests. Serge agreed to participate a little in my plans without any extra costs(!) He's a musician himself and opted to spend some sparetime on my project. What a nice guy :) The measurements took place this morning from 6:30 till about 9:30. All 3 floors where measured on the in and the outside. It was obvious the 3rd floor was one big leak area. (which we already knew). The results are gonna be used to get permits and to give a clue on the noise levels outside while using the rooms on floor 1 and floor 2. We want to be sure not to disturb the neighbors using those 2 floors while bands start rocking like Ozzy. Results will be in soon I hope.... Here are some pix. first pic is Serge taking measurements within the room on floor 3 to check pinknoise levels. 2nd is the pinknoise generator 3rd picture shows the dB meter, very high tec :) 4rd pic's the measuremnt mic, 5 meters high last pic is Serge taking measurements on floor 2

Okay, it's been a while. There's lots of developments goin' on which I won't bother ya'll with. Cunstruction planning is comming together. I've put all my plans and ideas into a 3D concept with Sketchup. currently planning HVAC. I'll do 2 air pipes, 1 in, 1 out. Dunno if both of them will be active. Atleast one of'm. I was thinking, can I put both pipes in the corner and built a bass-trap arround them? For example a "superchunk" where the wool not only absorbs frq but will also demp the air-pipe. Or wil bass frqs just "escape" through this pipe and transfer through the building? any thoughts on that?

Ro! How's the progress on your build? I'm very curious about how you manage to separate the floor levels acoustically and all that, I'd guess it's a handfull, just wanted to bump this to see if someone come's up with some new and vital info on this.. best a :arrow:

Hey, good thinking about bumping this thread ;) There's some actions still going on: - design, I've pretty much completed the design for the multi level building. It's NOT going to be studio quality, it's rehearsal rooms. The floors gonna have beef up, isolation wise, by adding mass to the floor and ceiling parts. - Acoustical design's in progress. I''ll finish it when the construction's done. - Money: ah, there's an issue. Currently awaiting subsidies... We have about 6,000 euro already. But budget's about 20.000... - Meanwhile I've seen another great building which is a bit more space, but all on groundlevel! About 3 times more rent than my current building :( I'll see if it's worth. Meanwhile... - Phase 1 is at hand: cleaning up the current building and removing walls etc. Deadline's end of may. Hope we make it.... Ofcourse I'll take pix, even just to keep Keith of my back, LOL. So, nothing new here. :twisted:

Progress, ppl. Progress!! Finally, the plan is set in motion. We just kinda finished phase 1 of this monster: clearing out the studio RC and rec.room annex rehearsal room on the floor 2 and cleaning out the other 2 floors to create space. We threw away almost anything we haven't used for the last couple 'o months. Major clean-up! Next up phase 2: demolition! But first.... PIX to backup my words Here's a before and after picture (the before pic was shot a few months agon) of floor 2, the now empty RC and finally the garbage we collected.

Right... Phase 2: Demotime! As the title states, it's demolition time. Floor 2 will be totally cleared. This is where a rehearsal space annex tracking room and CR was located. As the following pix will show. We've removed the CR, some GB, ceiling, wood in front of windows and some misc stuff. Next up, the existing (floating) floor and rest of inner walls. Now, who's gonna clean up after me.... Darn, it always amazes me how much Garbage I end up... Pix: - 7: removing existing GB - 6: some junk - 8 + 9: There's light on the other side. The wood that holds the windows is totally rotten and will be closed with clay bricks. - 12+13: The wall between TR and CR is down, baby!

Demolition day 2 Last week we started with demolition of the 2nd floor, today we continued. Goals for today where to clean up the mess from last week (shipping wood, insulation and other stuff to the junkyard), break some more walls/ceilings and clean up a bit. Some pix for proof: 1. Some more demo 2. The remaining junk from last week's demo 3. Moving that junk by car, to the dump... 4. Clean up 5. We're getting closer, junk's mostly gone and all walls and ceiling being stripped. Next week, demolition of existing gypsumblock walls and shipping them to the dump. cheers.

Another fine little demo Day 3 Pfew, it's summertime in the Netherlands which makes demolition a pretty swetty job. It's about 27 degrees celcius here, and we're demoing the top floor with flat roof.... Imagen the heat inside :shock: Ahwell, we cleaned up the place from last time and started removing the first portion of the existing inner wall which was made 15 years ago. It's made of Cellular concrete with a cavity filled with mattras foam (!) We only managed to break down eastern wall (left on the first picture) Next friday we'll remove all the this garbage (to the junkyard) and start breaking down the south and west walls. Also removed the "studio" control-room floating floor. Here's proof: 1 - Photo taken at entrance level (north), at the left is the, now, removed wall. The middle is the garbage from that. 2 - Same, Same but different (angle) ;) 3 - The Cellular concrete residu 4 - This is what was used for insulation in air cavity 5 - Shot from the back (south)

Another Day in hell Blood, sweat and heavy stuff. We did some more demolition and getting closer to a completely stripped room. Wow, the reverb just keeps on growing here 8) We stripped the remaining Cellular concrete wall partitions (south and west wall). More garbage, man where does it come from! Here's again some pix 1 - The yellow foam from in between the exterior wall and, now removed, inner wall. WHAT were those guys thinking when they build that wall (bout 15 years ago) [oh well, I'd prolly do the same back then. .. I too was ignorant 2 - Bringing all the stuff to the garbage disposal 3 - Yup, a disposed wall 4 - Removing some more wood 5 - Now, THAT's what a stripped room looks like Next friday will prolly be the last run concerning demolition. We've still got to remove the existing "floating" (not really) floor. That floor is nothing more than a raised floor. No spring whatsoever.... man, am I glad I found this forum. cheers, untill next week ro